What level would a wizard need to be to conquer our earth?


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Title. What level would an optimized wizard need to be, coming over with only his WBL-gear, to conquer earth? Remember, he doesn't speak the language and his Kn History, Kn Local, and Kn Geography checks are useless until he reads up on some local

We'll say he can't use conjuration (calling) spells or travel to any plane he did not create, but all other magic is okay.

My guess is 11.

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Given infinite time, a savvy Wizard with access to Silent Image, Comprehend Languages and Charm Person could conquer the earth. So, level 1 :P


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I am also feeling like disguise self and charm person would get you pretty far in a world of non-wizards.

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Depends on what you mean by "conquer." Secretly ruling everything from the shadows would be a lot easier than using military might to subjugate the entire planet.

A level 3 wizard using invisibility to get close and charm person to befriend world leaders could probably wield a lot of influence.

I'd say a wizard that wanted to actually publicly rule the world with an iron fist would want to be at least level 11 or so, just to have contingency to survive assassination attempts and nuclear strikes. But honestly such a thing is really not level dependent - getting an unstoppable army together and using it to conquer has little to do with your personal tricks and more to do with your leadership and organization. So far no one has ever managed to pull it off, though many have tried.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Assuming that he wants to actually do it, access to teleport would probably be essential, allowing him to swiftly move from country to country. Couple that with clever use of disguise self and charm person and/or dominate person, and he's pretty much unstoppable. A smart wizard gets other people to open doors for him, he doesn't do it himself.

So, with enough time, a 1st level wizard could get the job done, but to get it done quickly, a 10th level wizard could cover the planet with charmed/dominated thralls in a couple of months (circumference of planet is 26,000 miles, if he can only cast teleport 1/day he can circumnavigate the world in less than a month. Given that he wants to move around, not go in a straight line, it'll take longer). Charm/dominate the country's ruler(s) and wealthy into giving him control over treasury and military resources. Pretty soon he'll effectively own everything. Less than a year, total, probably closer to 6-9 months. Lower level can do it, it just takes a bit longer to use commercial transport to hit every country.

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It'd be easier for a level 7 Bard to do. Just jack up Bluff out the wazoo (can get +21 without breaking a sweat & without magical gear) and take Glibness as their level 3 spell. Convince anyone of anything.

"You should totally give me those secret codes."

"You should totally vote for me." (please - don't turn this into a political thread - that's as deep as I want to go)

"You should totally invest in my company - it's gonna be awesome and make tons of $"

And you don't run into the problem of charm/dominate of it wearing off and them getting mad. Plus - those both have limited targets. Glibness and a camera could work on everyone with a TV. (The Bard could start their reign of terror on The Home Shopping Network.)


DualJay wrote:

Title. What level would an optimized wizard need to be, coming over with only his WBL-gear, to conquer earth? Remember, he doesn't speak the language and his Kn History, Kn Local, and Kn Geography checks are useless until he reads up on some local

We'll say he can't use conjuration (calling) spells or travel to any plane he did not create, but all other magic is okay.

My guess is 11.

By himself it wouldn't be possible. AT ALL. He would need several things.

1. Knowledge. Our world is tremendously different from Golarion in the way things work. Ready access to rapid communication and travel is common to a degree that's not imaginable.

2. An organisation. The world is a really BIG place. Razmir, possibly THE most powerful living wizard in Golarion today hasn't even managed to conquer all of Golarion yet which is a much smaller place in population and the number of countries involved... In fact, he's only got one small piece of the entire Inner Sea region. And he HAS an organisation to boot. An empire ruled by one man is pretty much limited to what that one man can immediately grasp and personally control... which isn't that much at a time, no matter how powerful you are.

3. Capable henchmen. Which is what Razmir really dosen't seem to have... He has minions and spellcasters but no real Number 2 types. And these would have to be native henchmen...who know how things work.

4. Time. Rome wasn't built in a day... and what you're talking about is a couple of of orders of magnitude of what Rome ruled on it's best days.


At every level I think.
1)Max Intelligence
2)Learn Hypnotic Pattern
3)Get an high diplomacy (cleaver wordplay comes to mind) to convince people to fail their saving throw
4)Start a making friends everywhere using the aforementioned 3 steps
5)???
6)Profit


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I'm going to go with the opposite end of the spectrum with a minimum of 18th level.

People constantly don't account for stealth or sneak, as well as other things intelligence agencies can do.

In addition our technology is probably on the level of something higher than what an 18th level wizard could do in many instances.

The Exchange

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For a given value of "conquer" I'd say 13th.

I'm assuming you mean that he comes in and sets himself up as the absolute ruler rather than be happy in the shadows. Charm and dominate will get you a fair distance but the problem is that eventually uncharmed people will start turning against those nations he has conquered. No one has enough spell slots to keep everyone important charmed all the time. Presumably he doesn't want to wait out a world war or three while all the stuff he wants to rule over is blown to bits before his claim is finalized. And there's the risk he gets caught in an explosion before the wars are over.

So once he's had time to settle in and learn the lay of the land (easily doable with disguise spells and tongues/comprehend languages he'd need to be sure everyone knew that not only was he effectively invulnerable but that he could reach anyone, anywhere. He dominates a few key people to secure the most sensitive items (nukes); makes an example of one or two cities and then waits for the inevitable uprisings and puts them down with brutal efficiency.

So why 13th level? 13th level (7th level spells) is where he would first gain access to the "you can't touch me" spells. (Mage's magnificent mansion in this case.) He gets greater teleport to make his way around safely. He gets access to greater scrying and teleport object to make his point about being able to reach anyone in a very direct way.


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He couldn't. Magic isn't real.

Scarab Sages

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Dave Justus wrote:
He couldn't. Magic isn't real.

Nah, it's real. The problem is that the entire planet is an anti-magic zone.


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Dave Justus wrote:
He couldn't. Magic isn't real.

Not according to Doug Henning.

And since neither he nor David Copperfield are ruling this world (as far as I know), I'd say it would still take a world power-level of organization and means.

DO NOT TAKE ME FOR SOME CONJURER OF CHEAP TRICKS!


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GreyWolfLord wrote:

I'm going to go with the opposite end of the spectrum with a minimum of 18th level.

People constantly don't account for stealth or sneak, as well as other things intelligence agencies can do.

In addition our technology is probably on the level of something higher than what an 18th level wizard could do in many instances.

With technology spells and crafting we're screwed, and (in addition to the general incompetence of intelligence bureaucracies) you are essentially saying a few levels in expert or rogue requires a wizard to be 18th level to prevent.

An alarm spells, silence, detect technology, etc is enough to kill any intelligence which would be left relying on sight alone... which is tricky when a wizard can use illusions.

To conquer Earth entirely would require a decent level wizard, but I'm thinking somewhere between 7 and 11.


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The real problem that the wizard would run into is that costs aren't measured in gold anymore so he would have a heck of a time figuring out how to craft things and what size diamond he needs for his Wish spells ;)

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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
DualJay wrote:

Title. What level would an optimized wizard need to be, coming over with only his WBL-gear, to conquer earth? Remember, he doesn't speak the language and his Kn History, Kn Local, and Kn Geography checks are useless until he reads up on some local

We'll say he can't use conjuration (calling) spells or travel to any plane he did not create, but all other magic is okay.

My guess is 11.

By himself it wouldn't be possible. AT ALL. He would need several things.

1. Knowledge. Our world is tremendously different from Golarion in the way things work. Ready access to rapid communication and travel is common to a degree that's not imaginable.

2. An organisation. The world is a really BIG place. Razmir, possibly THE most powerful living wizard in Golarion today hasn't even managed to conquer all of Golarion yet which is a much smaller place in population and the number of countries involved... In fact, he's only got one small piece of the entire Inner Sea region. And he HAS an organisation to boot. An empire ruled by one man is pretty much limited to what that one man can immediately grasp and personally control... which isn't that much at a time, no matter how powerful you are.

3. Capable henchmen. Which is what Razmir really dosen't seem to have... He has minions and spellcasters but no real Number 2 types. And these would have to be native henchmen...who know how things work.

4. Time. Rome wasn't built in a day... and what you're talking about is a couple of of orders of magnitude of what Rome ruled on it's best days.

Razmir is a) apparently real lazy, b) really unconcerned with ruling everything, at least in comparison to his goals of becoming immortal and a god, and c) exists in a universe wherein powers that check and balance his arcane might exist (for example, her Infernal Majestrix, or the current Queen of Geb).

Sovereign Court

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GreyWolfLord wrote:

I'm going to go with the opposite end of the spectrum with a minimum of 18th level.

People constantly don't account for stealth or sneak, as well as other things intelligence agencies can do.

In addition our technology is probably on the level of something higher than what an 18th level wizard could do in many instances.

If intelligence agencies become aware of the threat, then yes they would be a real force to be reckoned with.


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ryric wrote:
A level 3 wizard using invisibility to get close and charm person to befriend world leaders could probably wield a lot of influence.

I have to disagree with this.

If we are going to think in a real world hypothesis, we have to think about how real people would react.

Charm Person has a limited duration. Once the duration ran out, the subject of the spell would remember that he/she suddenly felt a strong friendship for this person that they never knew before, and now they feel no kinship, whatsoever. The subject also remembers agreeing to do all sorts of things they'd never do for someone he/she just met.

This would set off all sorts of alarm bells in a real person's head.


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Saldiven wrote:


Charm Person has a limited duration. Once the duration ran out, the subject of the spell would remember that he/she suddenly felt a strong friendship for this person that they never knew before, and now they feel no kinship, whatsoever. The subject also remembers agreeing to do all sorts of things they'd never do for someone he/she just met.

In support of this, George R. R. Martin's "Wild Cards" series had a character named "Envoy" (one of the original Four Aces), whose ability was essentially a mass charm person spell at will, fluffed as pheromone control. When he tried it on a Congressional Committee, the effect lasted more or less until he left the room, after which he was re-subpoenaed and had to testify inside an airtight suit.

Basically, such a wizard could wield influence only until someone figured out what was going on.


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Blood money, simulacra, restoration, rinse repeat until you've got an army of yourselves to rule the world via clever application of spell casting.

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How is your solo wizard getting access to frequent restoration in a world with no magic items or other spell casters?

The real issue with trying to rule the world is the bureaucracy. The world is big, and there would likely be more issues to fix each day that the total spell slots at your disposal, no matter how many simulacra you crank out.

Grand Lodge

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Who is the GM for our real world earth?

Until this question is answered we won't be able to make any sort of accurate estimate.

Too much table variation.


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dwayne germaine wrote:

Who is the GM for our real world earth?

I will be... very soon

Grand Lodge

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Future Alien Overlord wrote:
dwayne germaine wrote:

Who is the GM for our real world earth?

I will be... very soon

In that case... Have some cookies!


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Back off buddy, I've been working these chumps for thousands of years, my kitty minions are this close to taking over.


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hiiamtom wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:

I'm going to go with the opposite end of the spectrum with a minimum of 18th level.

People constantly don't account for stealth or sneak, as well as other things intelligence agencies can do.

In addition our technology is probably on the level of something higher than what an 18th level wizard could do in many instances.

With technology spells and crafting we're screwed, and (in addition to the general incompetence of intelligence bureaucracies) you are essentially saying a few levels in expert or rogue requires a wizard to be 18th level to prevent.

An alarm spells, silence, detect technology, etc is enough to kill any intelligence which would be left relying on sight alone... which is tricky when a wizard can use illusions.

To conquer Earth entirely would require a decent level wizard, but I'm thinking somewhere between 7 and 11.

We can nuke a million people dead with technology. Not that we would or should, but I don't think there's a single spell that saves the wizard from plutonium poisoning or fission (literally having their atoms torn apart at an atomic level) that is a low level spell. We've apparently killed several with that way, and they didn't even know they died that way until their bodies were exhumed and studied for that type of poisoning.

We not only can breathe water (low level spell), but also withstand the pressure that would crush steel in an instant.

The Wizard can teleport up to 100 miles per level. That's up to 1800 at 18th, but only 1000 at 10th. Our information on the internet travels just as fast, and with agents in place, there's no place that wizard could hide in the civilized world once we know what we are looking for in his spell emanations.

There is no creature so large that we can't kill. We could probably kill Ancient dragons with our weapons with ease (and drive them to extinction if man is any indication).

That said, NO creature is as strong as our tanks, submarines and other weapons of war which would be brought to bear against such a tyrant trying to take over the world. Sure, a Fireball might affect adventurers...but a modern tank?

The weapons on our tanks can make his blasty spells seem like miniature poodles in comparison.

Our drugs can make his enchantment and illusion spells seem like something better forgotten.

People want fantasy and focus on that but forget that in many ways, we ARE living in a fantasy world where people from history would have their eyes wide with wonder. We have technology that exceeds any fantasy they ever had.

Perhaps one doesn't realize just what level of technology we have today.

He won't have access to some of the spell components, and his spellbook to contain his spells is massive. Sometimes he needs more than one, and he might be able to have it in a handy haversack which holds up to a certain amount of encumberance.

I can hold over 2000 books on an old Kindle. I can hold over 10,000 books on my phone in the palm of my hand.

My vote is even at 18th level they'd be hard pressed, but there are some spells that could perhaps help them out more than others.

However, once we target the spellcaster...they'll need some pretty hefty magic to escape us in the modern world.

Don't discount technology. In Pathfinder a rifle bullet does 1d8 more or less damage.

In real life...that bullet kills you dead no matter WHAT "level" you are. I suppose you could compare it to a death spell, but even more deadly in the hands of an expert shooter.

Our technology tears up Pathfinder technology up any day of the weak.

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dwayne germaine wrote:
Future Alien Overlord wrote:
dwayne germaine wrote:

Who is the GM for our real world earth?

I will be... very soon
In that case... Have some cookies!

Tracking cookies that is - once we infect your alien OS which looks suspiciously like MS-DOS with a virus imported via floppy disk written by that dude from Jurassic Park, your giant space ship is doomed!

Dark Archive

I don't think it'd be possible. Say the wizard uses Invisibility to sneak into a secure facility. Pressure plates, thermal cameras, and the like would all detect him.

Charm has a kind of short duration. First time the wizard uses it on someone important, the gig is up. Once the spell wears off people in power will know this person is up to something. Not to mention, assuming you managed to invisibly sneak into the white house... You cast Charm Person on the president, thus becoming visible. Suddenly you've got secret service attacking you.

If you go the overt, direct route... You're facing armies the size of which you never imagined. With weapons that have ranges greater then you conceived of. Even if you managed to gather an army of your own, the wizard's idea of an army might be a few hundred to a thousand soldiers. And they're facing modern military forces. That... is not going to end well for the wizard's army.

The wizard himself might be able to fight off an armed force on his own. Stoneskin, blur, invisibility, displacement, illusions... Oh, wait. Thermal scopes and armor piercing bullets. As well as carpet bombing.

Wizard uses Mage's Magnificent Mansion as a bunker? Well, you have to leave sometime. And I'm pretty sure the CIA, military, or someone would have snipers set up for when that happened.

If the wizard did manage to take over a nation, well, it's probably a 3rd world nation. Our hypothetical wizard now likely has a gurrila war being fought against him, attacks from neighbors who he's pissed off, as well as the rest of the world keeping a close eye. Some intelligence agency or crime lord would probably decide "he has to go". At which point, once again there's the high risk of a sniper round to the head.

Dark Archive

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GreyWolfLord wrote:

Don't discount technology. In Pathfinder a rifle bullet does 1d8 more or less damage.

In real life...that bullet kills you dead no matter WHAT "level" you are. I suppose you could compare it to a death spell, but even more deadly in the hands of an expert shooter.

To be fair, a normal person would have 1d6+con in hit points. And people do regularly survive being shot. But that 1d8 damage CAN kill a normal person. Adventurers wouldn't be considered normal.

But how long would that level 13 wizard last under the fire from a chaingun or m16 assault rifle? Or dozens of assault rifles? Or hundreds of assault rifles? Would a sniper bullet to the head be considered a ranged cdg that doesn't require the target to be helpless?

Dark Archive

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ryric wrote:

How is your solo wizard getting access to frequent restoration in a world with no magic items or other spell casters?

The real issue with trying to rule the world is the bureaucracy. The world is big, and there would likely be more issues to fix each day that the total spell slots at your disposal, no matter how many simulacra you crank out.

Bureaucracy is the problem.

For instance, our Wizard can Teleport to Syria and Islamic State can't really touch him. They can't see him or hurt him and given time he can kill anyone. So what then?

He is in Europe, and wants political power. Illusions will get him the ID he needs, Enchantments will open doors. But can it get voters? At this point he doesn't want to display Ultimate Arcane Power as it is a vote loser and might worry some people. Imagine what the media would do to such a magic user?

He might try making money, going the Bill Gates route. but how does he account for his inventions? Warren Buffett style is easier - Divination can help him rule the financial world.


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Captain K. wrote:
Divination can help him rule the financial world.

This is the most realistic route. Financial domination via Divination.

Perhaps toss in some subtle market manipulation, but unneeded in the long run.

A high level character of any class with maxed Profession: Economist and a few stat and skill boosting items could do the same. The only difference is time required.


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Yes, diviner is definitely the way to go. Always acting in the surprise round and having a huge initiative modifier lets you flee until you can use divination to determine what the threat was.

Also, you'd want to be an elf so you can take the Breadth of Knowledge feat so you are treated as proficient in any profession. If you need to be a lawyer, a computer programmer, etc., you can do it. A persistent disguise would be necessary, but achievable.


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Imbicatus wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
He couldn't. Magic isn't real.
Nah, it's real. The problem is that the entire planet is an anti-magic zone.

I mean...not if we're talking Pathfinder. It is possible the OP is asking because Earth is a REAL location in the PF universe.

Earth

Honestly, your biggest problem is going to be Cthulhu. Probably be a good idea to try and get on Baba Yaga's good side, too.

Dark Archive

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The problem with this route would be that it's statistically impossible for someone to always make the right choices in the stock market. After a few too many 'lucky' guesses people would start questioning if there's insider trading going on. When it comes to light this person is using 'magic' to predict the market (and it will come out) there's a good chance of legal action, or perhaps criminal organizations coming after the person with an "offer you can't refuse".

The wizard would have to deliberately make bad investments now and then to throw off the trail. The question is, would this megalomaniac wizard have the wisdom to realize this?


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Gulthor wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
He couldn't. Magic isn't real.
Nah, it's real. The problem is that the entire planet is an anti-magic zone.

I mean...not if we're talking Pathfinder. It is possible the OP is asking because Earth is a REAL location in the PF universe.

Earth

Honestly, your biggest problem is going to be Cthulhu. Probably be a good idea to try and get on Baba Yaga's good side, too.

That isn't our Earth. That is a fictional earth developed by a game company.


Kahel Stormbender wrote:

I don't think it'd be possible. Say the wizard uses Invisibility to sneak into a secure facility. Pressure plates, thermal cameras, and the like would all detect him.

Charm has a kind of short duration. First time the wizard uses it on someone important, the gig is up. Once the spell wears off people in power will know this person is up to something. Not to mention, assuming you managed to invisibly sneak into the white house... You cast Charm Person on the president, thus becoming visible. Suddenly you've got secret service attacking you.

If you go the overt, direct route... You're facing armies the size of which you never imagined. With weapons that have ranges greater then you conceived of. Even if you managed to gather an army of your own, the wizard's idea of an army might be a few hundred to a thousand soldiers. And they're facing modern military forces. That... is not going to end well for the wizard's army.

The wizard himself might be able to fight off an armed force on his own. Stoneskin, blur, invisibility, displacement, illusions... Oh, wait. Thermal scopes and armor piercing bullets. As well as carpet bombing.

Wizard uses Mage's Magnificent Mansion as a bunker? Well, you have to leave sometime. And I'm pretty sure the CIA, military, or someone would have snipers set up for when that happened.

If the wizard did manage to take over a nation, well, it's probably a 3rd world nation. Our hypothetical wizard now likely has a gurrila war being fought against him, attacks from neighbors who he's pissed off, as well as the rest of the world keeping a close eye. Some intelligence agency or crime lord would probably decide "he has to go". At which point, once again there's the high risk of a sniper round to the head.

Charm someone who knows with absolute confidence that mind control doesn't exist and he will rationalize it as his own idea no matter how outlandish. Then there's blackmail. Once someone has been charmed or dominated and done something that marks them as your accomplice they can't draw attention to you without incriminating themselves. No justice department or jury will believe mind control as an excuse. Nor will the electorate if the aid given is technically legal but the target is an elected official. This is basically how humint usually works. Get them to do something minor but technically treasonous and then hold it over their head to get more substantial intelligence or sabotage.

The assumption that a wizard can't comprehend a modern army given examples is laughable. Wizards are not stupid, nor is the basic nature of a modern army at all secret. If a wizard amasses an army it will be every bit the match of North Vietnam's because wizards are the very platonic essence of doing the research. That's a victorious army, especially since the only effective counter-insurgency strategy relies heavily on the assumption that insurgents cannot teleport.

The wizard will be able to fight off any police force on his own using greater invisibility and flight. In urban combat inside a civilized nation the vast majority of military assets are inapplicable due to the risk of collateral damage Thermal scopes can be used, but infra-red is light. Animals, such as vipers, that see in infra-red do not have blindsight and thus invisibility must cover intra-red.

You're presuming on the hyper-competence and will of the world's intelligence agencies. The leadership of ISIS still being alive and the long time taken to hunt down Osama and Sadam is proof they aren't. It's hard enough to find a secret bunker that isn't extraplanar. Finding one that is? Don't make me laugh.

If a wizard takes over a 3rd world nation he doesn't face guerrilla war. He leads it. That's the basic process for taking over a 3rd world nation. This is supervillainy 101 stuff here. Research how normal people achieve similar goals and build on them using your powers. An extradimensional wizard can't get into position for a military coup so it's foment a populist uprising or co-opt an existing insurgent movement.


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Atarlost wrote:
Charm someone who knows with absolute confidence that mind control doesn't exist and he will rationalize it as his own idea no matter how outlandish.

Those people are rather difficult to find. Hypnotism is a thing, and I can rent stage hypnotists for a birthday party for less than $100. The CIA has published open studies, for example, on the effectiveness of hypnotism in various capacities (e.g, "Hypnosis in Interrogation"). The American Psychological Association acknowledges its effectiveness as a treatment, albeit not for all the things the quacks would like to sell you.

I have, of course, no idea what's in the CIA's classified library, but the fact that they're publishing stuff on hypnosis basically proves they've been looking in to it, which means they're taking seriously the possibility of mind control.

Quote:
This is basically how humint usually works. Get them to do something minor but technically treasonous and then hold it over their head to get more substantial intelligence or sabotage.

Except when it doesn't work, which is the problem here. You're assuming that the wizard has total surprise and that no one is aware of his existence, let alone his capacities. This is probably a defensible assumption -- up to a very limited point. One of the major humint risks is that the target rats you out to the security services, at which point the CIA knows there's something very interesting and powerful out there and they start to put the pieces together.

Normally (e.g., when we're doing this to the Russians), that's not a problem. We assume that the Russians know the game and know most of the pieces on the board; they, by contrast, assume (correctly) that we know the game and most of the pieces. We have our sources, they have theirs, and the real game is not getting information, but validating it so that we can be sure it's not some elaborate lie that we've been spoon-fed.

The counterintelligence agencies would have a field day with this wizard. Greater invisibility would indeed be a fantastic help -- for roughly sixty seconds. But ultimately action economy would kill the wizard dead; there's too many CIA agents (and cops, and soldiers) and only one of him.


Dave Justus wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
He couldn't. Magic isn't real.
Nah, it's real. The problem is that the entire planet is an anti-magic zone.

I mean...not if we're talking Pathfinder. It is possible the OP is asking because Earth is a REAL location in the PF universe.

Earth

Honestly, your biggest problem is going to be Cthulhu. Probably be a good idea to try and get on Baba Yaga's good side, too.

That isn't our Earth. That is a fictional earth developed by a game company.

And we're on the website for that gaming company, in a discussion board for that game.

The OP didn't state this was speculation on what it would take for a wizard to take over real, modern-day Earth.

My default assumption is that the OP is asking about the Earth that appears in the game that we're on the forums for.


Kahel Stormbender wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:

Don't discount technology. In Pathfinder a rifle bullet does 1d8 more or less damage.

In real life...that bullet kills you dead no matter WHAT "level" you are. I suppose you could compare it to a death spell, but even more deadly in the hands of an expert shooter.

To be fair, a normal person would have 1d6+con in hit points. And people do regularly survive being shot. But that 1d8 damage CAN kill a normal person. Adventurers wouldn't be considered normal.

But how long would that level 13 wizard last under the fire from a chaingun or m16 assault rifle? Or dozens of assault rifles? Or hundreds of assault rifles? Would a sniper bullet to the head be considered a ranged cdg that doesn't require the target to be helpless?

It doesn't matter HOW MANY HP you have, 1 bullet will kill you.

an elephant in PF has 11d8...one bullet can kill an elephant.

A Whale has 15d8, a bullet (or even one harpoon [which is actually better in whaling...bullets have to some special modifications in the whale's case) properly done can kill them.

Apparantly, we have harpoonest and sharpshooters that can hit at least an AC of 28 or better...

Sometimes FAR more consistently than someone with a 20 BAB even, (meaning they won't miss on a natural 1, they miss less than 1% of the time).

That would put their BAB somewhere in the range of 30 or 40, maybe even 50...(even if we say they do miss 5% of the time somehow)...meaning these snipers and others could be over 30th or 40th level!

And we have many of them.

Our weapons aren't the wimpy PF weapons...the Gun and all the types of ammunition are like Death Spells.

Anyone can have the ability to buy the appropriate death spell, and with enough training, actually use it effectively.

We haven't even gotten into the REALLY decent military weapons yet, and heck, not even close to the heavy weapons a tank might carry (and the armor to prevent it from being destroyed by the same), or the super weapons that have far more explosive power than even a tank would carry.

Dark Archive

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The problem stems from the world view the wizard comes from. Tactics change based on weapons available. The wizard from the Inner Seas is familiar with battle tactics involving swords, bows, magic, and maybe the occasional primitive firearm that's as dangerous to the user as the enemy. They're probably most use to small scale engagements, a half dozen to a dozen people fighting an equal number, maybe up to twice or three times their number.

And let's be honest here, even with spells that have a range of 300 to 400 feet, most combats in Pathfinder tend to be short range. Explosives tend to be mixed on the spot by alchemists. And while potent, they also tend to have a rather small area of effect, with most of the damage applying to the target alone. Siege weapons are frightening, but take dozens of people to operate. And once positioned, they need to be defended because the only adjustments you can make are angle of attack.

Then they come to the modern Earth. Sure, they can read books using comprehend Languages, but that has a limited duration. And the books the wizard's going to have access to wont really have good details on things like military tactics, military weapons and their full capabilities, or how important people/locations/information is protected. It's a loud, noisy, and polluted place. We don't pay attention to air pollution most times. But to someone from the Inner Seas, it'd be noticeable. And possibly distracting.

Computers? What are these, and how do they work? I've seen people who are rather intelligent be completely baffled by computers. They didn't exist when the person was growing up. And they just don't understand them now. Imagine someone from a fantasy world which is just now getting into steam tech trying to figure out a computer. The fact that everyone has a video camera would trip them up. Speed of communication would trip them up.

And the moment they start to try gathering information on things like how the president is protected, or how the UN is protected... Someone is probably going to notice. The fact the wizard is a complete non-entity would be both a boon and a hindrance. To know what official documents look like, the wizard would have to get their hands on them. But without money or proof of identity, this would be difficult.

And that's just the planning stage. None of these things are insurmountable. But dealing with them would have a very high chance of bringing the wizard to the attention of various law enforcement and counter-intelligence agencies.

As to using teleport to get around, it's 3.585 miles between New York City and Spain. About the same distance to reach England. At level 20, a wizard could teleport 2000 miles, not enough to cross the Atlantic Ocean. You could cast it again, but that would definitely require a difficult concentration check since you're probably now underwater. Greater Teleport would work better. But that's a higher level spell. It's also limited in how often you could do this. Especially if you need other things prepped and ready for defense and/or shelter.


Gulthor wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
He couldn't. Magic isn't real.
Nah, it's real. The problem is that the entire planet is an anti-magic zone.

I mean...not if we're talking Pathfinder. It is possible the OP is asking because Earth is a REAL location in the PF universe.

Earth

Honestly, your biggest problem is going to be Cthulhu. Probably be a good idea to try and get on Baba Yaga's good side, too.

That isn't our Earth. That is a fictional earth developed by a game company.

And we're on the website for that gaming company, in a discussion board for that game.

The OP didn't state this was speculation on what it would take for a wizard to take over real, modern-day Earth.

My default assumption is that the OP is asking about the Earth that appears in the game that we're on the forums for.

My assumption was he was talking about the REAL Earth, as in reality...not the complete and made up world of fantasy.

In that case, if it's Paizo's earth...the rules are different and nothing works like it should anyways.

That would take a LOT more thinking...perhaps a 3rd or 4th level character could do that, or maybe a 10th level wizard...

With our world, no way...it's far more remarkable than what you find in Paizo's Earth...

But for Paizo's planet that they named Earth and has some similarities to ours...I suppose any of the recommendations above for the right level could be appropriate.

Dark Archive

Even then, I'd say it's unlikely even a level 20 wizard could pull it off. The logistics of conquering Earth means it's pretty well impossible to begin with. Supply chains get too long and vulnerable. Even Alexander the Great, known for conquering most of the known world didn't pull it off. England, with their use of flags as means of claiming territory, failed to do so. As dis Spain, France, and everyone else.

If the Earth in the Pathfinder universe has only just recently ended World War 1, well that's a bad sign for our conquest happy wizard. War at this point in history had just proven it's self to be bloodier and more deadly then anything before it. And advances in military technology are quickly making it even worse.

Plus the world is soon going to be sucked into another global spanning war. One even more horrific then the last one. One with consequences so far reaching, our hypothetical wizard may decide to head back home if he understands exactly what they mean.


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I think it would take a combination of some of the tactics previously mentioned. The biggest thing the wizard would need is time.

Taking over the planet with simple force is not going to work for many of the reasons already stated. Eventually he would piss of someone powerful enough that they would have him taken out.

I think that his best course of action is taking it slow. He should also pursue multiple avenues to power. Some of the steps a person would have to take to make it work:

1) Make yourself vastly wealthy. There are multiple ways to do this, from using divination to rule the financial world(as mentioned already, and probably the safest if done carefully), to theft, to dominating the super rich etc.

2) Establish yourself as some kind of prophet or god. Assuming that he is the only one in the world that is practicing actual magic this should be doable. Invite skeptics and scientist to try and debunk your "miracles". Since you are actually doing magic, eventually people will start to flock to your banner. Set your new religion up to be as benevolent and kind as possible, so as not to make it a major target for the established powers.

4) Make yourself a celebrity. Do the talk shows, appear in commercials, whatever it takes. Just make sure that everything you do is above reproach. Make the world population love you. Never push your religion to hard, just make sure people know about it and subtly encourage them to consider it. Ensure that your don't just do this in the first world countries, do it everywhere.

5) Make yourself a trusted political figure. Use your vast intelligence to help out world leaders with crises, help negotiate peace treaties etc. Make sure the world knows you are a savvy and fair politician. Make friends with political leaders, and the power players of society.

6) Get yourself a country. Use your vast wealth and goodwill to take over a struggling county. Make the people there want you as their leader. Make the country great. Use your magic to improve quality of life(Decanters of endless water to irrigate fields etc). Make the country an amazing place to live. Slowly more and more people are going to want to live in your utopia. Keep working on peacefully expanding your country. Make it a superpower.

7) Always assume that someone is trying to kill you. Never be seen without magical protection from bullets, bombs, poison etc. As you get more and more powerful, someone is going to see you as a threat. Use foiled attempts to increase your prestige and power. Also never let others know the full extent of your abilities or powers. Knowing what someone is fully capable of allows you to better plan on how to defeat them.

8) Slowly keep working to ensure the growth of your country. Eventually other superpowers are going to see you as a threat. Use your magic to get blackmail material on rival leaders. Never openly threaten, but ensure you get your way.

9) If deemed necessary train your own wizard squads to do some of your dirty work. Pick these people from amidst the ranks of your most devote(but not insane) followers. Ensure that they see you are doing it all for the good of the world(also make sure you have a way to ensure your secrets and make won't make it into other countries hands if they are captured).

10) Enjoy your slow and steady rise to world domination through goodwill and faith.


Dave Justus wrote:
Gulthor wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Dave Justus wrote:
He couldn't. Magic isn't real.
Nah, it's real. The problem is that the entire planet is an anti-magic zone.

I mean...not if we're talking Pathfinder. It is possible the OP is asking because Earth is a REAL location in the PF universe.

Earth

Honestly, your biggest problem is going to be Cthulhu. Probably be a good idea to try and get on Baba Yaga's good side, too.

That isn't our Earth. That is a fictional earth developed by a game company.

1908 Earth might be a bit easier.

Dark Archive

As an alternate to the above, become a beloved Hero. Be seen as an uncorruptible paragon of truth and justice. Champion everyone, rich and poor alike. Stay out of politics entirely, going where you're needed because it's the right thing to do instead of the political or militaristic thing to do.

Because let's be honest here, if Superman wanted to rule the world he wouldn't have to conquer it. He could probably ask politely in the UN, and many nations would eagerly accept his rule and protection. And as long as he remained fair, tolerant, and moral... others would likely line up to surrender to him.

But the real question is, why would you want to rule the world? That's a LOT of paperwork you'd have to do. Can't delegate much of it either, anyone ambitious enough to say "I want it all" and lacking morals enough to try for it... Probably wouldn't be able to trust their underlings.


Heh, this is a great idea. I'd favour a Sorcerer's, Psychics or even Mesmerist's chances of succeeding compared to a Wizards. The lack of new spells would be a serious barrier to a wizard, if they weren't completely prepared when they came and/or couldn't plane shift somewhere to buy access to more. That spellbook could quite possibly be the most valuable book on the planet, if word got out.

But, that's beside the point.
By outright conquest by brute force, I don't think it would be possible short of a bunch of mythic ranks. Or at least, it might work for a small, weak country, if you were reasonably strong, and then you could maybe use their resources to build an army of your own and work from there. A wall of force or something similar would realistically be one of your best defences, but I don't think it would last for that long. You'd need something like a one-way wall.

The secretive approach would definitely be the easiest option. Just working your way up, charming the right people, until eventually you get to the top. Charm monster would be ideal, so that's making it a 7th level wizard at least. Charm Person simply doesn't last long enough to be consistently useful, especially at lower levels.

But, rules as written, you could probably just pull it off with a +18 modifier to diplomacy/perform(oratory)/bluff, which would sway most crowds. To get that, assuming reasonable charisma (+2) and a trait to make it a class skill, that's level 13. 10 if you get skill focus, or even lower than that with magic items. Don't even need to be a wizard, but the magic would help a lot in doing your other things.


Kahel Stormbender wrote:


Because let's be honest here, if Superman wanted to rule the world he wouldn't have to conquer it. He could probably ask politely in the UN, and many nations would eagerly accept his rule and protection. And as long as he remained fair, tolerant, and moral... others would likely line up to surrender to him.

There's one movie where Superman does become a tyrant after the Joker murders Lois Lane and he heat rays him to death.

Dark Archive

In that storyline though, Superman forces his rule (along side most of the justice league). He's not politely asking. Nor is he fair and just in his rule while maintaining his morals. Instead he becomes a worse villain then Luthor ever claimed him to be.

Oh, and that's not a movie. That's the storyline of the game Injustice: Gods Among Us.


Kahel Stormbender wrote:

In that storyline though, Superman forces his rule (along side most of the justice league). He's not politely asking. Nor is he fair and just in his rule while maintaining his morals. Instead he becomes a worse villain then Luthor ever claimed him to be.

Oh, and that's not a movie. That's the storyline of the game Injustice: Gods Among Us.

Which I think is an adaptation of a graphic novel. I remember now, it was one of those Youtube cutscene compilation videos.

Watched another for a final fantasy game that was six hours long.

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