Title. What level would an optimized wizard need to be, coming over with only his WBL-gear, to conquer earth? Remember, he doesn't speak the language and his Kn History, Kn Local, and Kn Geography checks are useless until he reads up on some local
We'll say he can't use conjuration (calling) spells or travel to any plane he did not create, but all other magic is okay.
My guess is 11.
By himself it wouldn't be possible. AT ALL. He would need several things.
1. Knowledge. Our world is tremendously different from Golarion in the way things work. Ready access to rapid communication and travel is common to a degree that's not imaginable.
2. An organisation. The world is a really BIG place. Razmir, possibly THE most powerful living wizard in Golarion today hasn't even managed to conquer all of Golarion yet which is a much smaller place in population and the number of countries involved... In fact, he's only got one small piece of the entire Inner Sea region. And he HAS an organisation to boot. An empire ruled by one man is pretty much limited to what that one man can immediately grasp and personally control... which isn't that much at a time, no matter how powerful you are.
3. Capable henchmen. Which is what Razmir really dosen't seem to have... He has minions and spellcasters but no real Number 2 types. And these would have to be native henchmen...who know how things work.
4. Time. Rome wasn't built in a day... and what you're talking about is a couple of of orders of magnitude of what Rome ruled on it's best days.
1. Solved by a lesser wish "I wish I knew as much about this world and its history as an average person of this world" After that he'd probably get the equivalent of a middle or high school education and then lesser wish for "About as much knowledge about this world and how it works as *insert political leader here*"
2. He could get this after doing part 1. After all he is the only magic man in the world and nobody has enough magic to stop him (That's the only reason Razmir hasn't conquered the world, he's not the only big fish)
3. Easily obtained ethically or unethically.
4. If he can reach level 20 or reach one mythic tier he can become immortal. If an Elf he'd have enough years to reach 20.
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Haven't finished catching up but this caught my eye:
The real problem that the wizard would run into is that costs aren't measured in gold anymore so he would have a heck of a time figuring out how to craft things and what size diamond he needs for his Wish spells ;)
I actually worked that out one time for the heck of it. Assuming that the relative value of gold to diamond is the same on Golarion as it is on modern earth, a 25,000 gp diamond would be about 400 carats in size. There's been a grand total of 15 recorded diamonds breaking that, although a couple like Lesedi La Rona, Cullinan and Sergio are massively larger than 400, each breaking 1,000 carats (with Cullinan and Sergio breaking 3,000).
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As did this:
Don't discount technology. In Pathfinder a rifle bullet does 1d8 more or less damage.
In real life...that bullet kills you dead no matter WHAT "level" you are. I suppose you could compare it to a death spell, but even more deadly in the hands of an expert shooter.
To be fair, a normal person would have 1d6+con in hit points. And people do regularly survive being shot. But that 1d8 damage CAN kill a normal person. Adventurers wouldn't be considered normal.
But how long would that level 13 wizard last under the fire from a chaingun or m16 assault rifle? Or dozens of assault rifles? Or hundreds of assault rifles? Would a sniper bullet to the head be considered a ranged cdg that doesn't require the target to be helpless?
It doesn't matter HOW MANY HP you have, 1 bullet will kill you.
an elephant in PF has 11d8...one bullet can kill an elephant.
A Whale has 15d8, a bullet (or even one harpoon [which is actually better in whaling...bullets have to some special modifications in the whale's case) properly done can kill them.
Apparantly, we have harpoonest and sharpshooters that can hit at least an AC of 28 or better...
Sometimes FAR more consistently than someone with a 20 BAB even, (meaning they won't miss on a natural 1, they miss less than 1% of the time).
That would put their BAB somewhere in the range of 30 or 40, maybe even 50...(even if we say they do miss 5% of the time somehow)...meaning these snipers and others could be over 30th or 40th level!
And we have many of them.
Our weapons aren't the wimpy PF weapons...the Gun and all the types of ammunition are like Death Spells.
Anyone can have the ability to buy the appropriate death spell, and with enough training, actually use it effectively.
We haven't even gotten into the REALLY decent military weapons yet, and heck, not even close to the heavy weapons a tank might carry (and the armor to prevent it from being destroyed by the same), or the super weapons...
The way I see it, the damage is pretty much spot on actually. You have to remember, when you're aiming for vitals you're essentially getting a crit in and applying precision damage and other bonuses at the same time. Typically modeling the real world with Pathfinder rules sets real world level caps around level 5, so let's look at a level 5 Gunslinger critting with a sniper rifle of sorts.
I'll assume that since this is a weapon specifically designed to be as accurate as physically possible, that it has a far reaching sight attached to it. The sniper rifle would then cost around 2,250 gp to craft for a guns everywhere world like Earth. That's well within the realms of a 5th level character's WBL, especially when the gun is likely just gifted by the military anyway.
The Gunslinger is specifically aiming for vital areas (taking 20) so their attack is automatically a critical hit (if they weren't then they wouldn't be sniping and the target would have a reasonable chance of living, which makes sense since people survive getting shot all the time). Assuming a Dex of 18 and Weapon Specialization (Sniper Rifle), they're dealing 4d10+20 damage, or 42 damage on average, on the crit. That sounds about right since that'll kill pretty much any 5th level or lower character without similar investment in Constitution. Bump Dex up to 20 and make that a +1 Sniper Rifle with Master Craftsman and you're looking at 50 damage on average, enough to invoke a massive damage save vs death on an elephant or any 5th level character, regardless of their stats (assuming appropriate WBL).
Although I suppose you could become a magical crafter Fighter, with 20 ranks in Craft (Alchemy) or Craft (Jewelry) and all the crafting feats, as well as the magical item mastery feats. Then you could follow the non-violent Wizard path to domination through crafting spells.What level would a fighter need to be to conquer our Earth?Necessary Wizard level +2. Because Leadership.If they're not allowed to bring cohorts from Golarion, it's probably impossible, assuming modern-day Earth.
(Sure, a 20th level fighter would be more than a match for most historical warlords, and a dwarf or elf could continue where a human's campaign was cut short by old age, but that's probably not relevant to the current discussion)
Or, if you are insidious enough a Kitsune Fighter can get Dominate Person 2 levels before a Wizard. The Kitsune "Sorcerer" Fighter gets Dominate Person at 7th. Wait another level for Dominate Person and you can have Realistic Likeness. You pick up most of the key Wizard spells for world domination while being able to perfectly mimic anyone you wish.
It's certainly got flaws as an idea compared to the Wizard, but it's plausible to conquer the world that way.
johnnythexxxiv wrote:
The Gunslinger is specifically aiming for vital areas (taking 20) so their attack is automatically a critical hit (if they weren't then they wouldn't be sniping and the target would have a reasonable chance of living, which makes sense since people survive getting shot all the time).
Response:
You cannot take 20 on an attack roll. You can only take 20 on something that has no effective penalty for a bad outcome, and it mimics the ability to try the SKILL or ABILITY CHECK (which is all taking 20 is designed for) 20 times in succession.
You cannot take 10 on an attack roll. You can only take 10 on a SKILL or ABILITY CHECK roll. This mimics the ability to work the ability in a round, undistracted.
Even with 20 BAB or True Strike, you aren't just "taking 20" on an attack roll. You still have to roll, and a 1 is a failure when dealing with attacks, regardless of other modifiers.
I know that you can't actually take 20 for attack rolls in Pathfinder, but then again, you also can't accurately shoot at half a dozen targets 1000 feet from each other in completely different directions in 6 seconds in real life either, so you know, if you're trying to model realism with existing game mechanics that aren't called shots (because those aren't good at mimicking head shots) you have to bend the rules slightly.
People kill abortion doctors...you think they wont kill a LITERAL witch with powers from the devil?OK, you can't just say people will kill a wizard. That's not reality, and boiling human behavior down to "thing scary murder it" is typically the reverse of standard human reactions.
The money to be made on a wizard alone means the wizard is more likely to be a celebrity than have to worry about fighting armies of crazed lunatics. Even if the wizard is dumped into the worst parts of the world they have the tools to escape and get somewhere safe. They are not exactly children in a warzone.
In the US, there have been only four incidents of abortion-related murders in the last four years. It's not exactly a common thing.
I think a lot of people are ignoring that declaring war on a nation and trying to invade it on your own isn't a viable tactic no matter how powerful and invulnerable you might be, and isn't how anyone is going to try to take over the world.
Just to be clear, when I suggest it is possible after he gets his immortality, it is because he is, effectively, no longer on his own.
This is why I noted you have to shut down four spell schools and crafting. With crafting, you can get so far ahead of the WBL curve that, even starting below your normal WBL, with time, you can exceed it. Once you have enough funds, you can make anything. Once you can make anything, action economy is taken care of. You can literally have as many absolutely loyal super-brilliant servants as you want.
Without crafting, immortality is harder, and wealth-accumulation is much slower; but both processes could be done.
- Conjuration is banned, but that's because summoning/binding wish-granting servants or even just elementals to gain infinite wealth is very easy. That infinite wealth then opens a gateway for infinite conjured servants. Plus summons; though without crafting that doesn't really remain a viable by-yourself against a nation or world.
- Illusion can do many of the shirt-term things Conjuration could do, but without crafting, those aren't enough. Ultimately, it has simulicra for a limitless supply of infinitely loyal anyone/anything you want.
- Enchantment allows you to turn enemies into allies. Even going so far as direct control is not necessary: you can charm your way through many situations. Subtlety is key with this one, but it can be done. And with crafting, it can be done in the numbers necessary to brute force your way, if you want.
- Necromancy is kind of the worst option here, but the ability to create Juju zombies and skeleton champions and such means you've got the ability to have most anyone on your side at any time. You have a limit, sure, but command- and control undead spells allow you to exceed that limit. Without crafting, though, this becomes only a weakly-viable method, as you have to have people loyal beyond the grave or you run out of slots, quickly.
- Divination basically means you can take over the world in the time-honored tradition of everyone who's ever conquered anything: by cheating er, by making wise decisions, and having a metric ton of finances. The finances allow you to purchase actual armies and loyal staff.
Transmutation is incredibly potent, and even has the ability to shift action economy is to your side... but not as a wizard, at least on your own. Abjuration is simply... not really all that necessary or terribly useful; it is useful, but much of it is gutted by the lack of other spell casters and traditional weaponry. It also can't alter the action economy. Evocation has long been noted as being one of the worst specializations a wizard could take. That said, with crafting, you'd quickly be the most wealthy military-industrial complex person around with these.
Also, the leadership feat allows for a small boost from loyal followers and cohorts. The usefulness depends on whether or not these are from Golarion and/or retraining is allowed; crafting abilities/options; and the timeframe you have available to you.
It's true: solo, you can't do it. But that's why, no matter what way a wizard goes, he doesn't go solo (even when he does).
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Don't discount technology. In Pathfinder a rifle bullet does 1d8 more or less damage.
In real life...that bullet kills you dead no matter WHAT "level" you are. I suppose you could compare it to a death spell, but even more deadly in the hands of an expert shooter.
To be fair, a normal person would have 1d6+con in hit points. And people do regularly survive being shot. But that 1d8 damage CAN kill a normal person. Adventurers wouldn't be considered normal.
But how long would that level 13 wizard last under the fire from a chaingun or m16 assault rifle? Or dozens of assault rifles? Or hundreds of assault rifles? Would a sniper bullet to the head be considered a ranged cdg that doesn't require the target to be helpless?
It doesn't matter HOW MANY HP you have, 1 bullet will kill you.
an elephant in PF has 11d8...one bullet can kill an elephant.
A Whale has 15d8, a bullet (or even one harpoon [which is actually better in whaling...bullets have to some special modifications in the whale's case) properly done can kill them.
Apparantly, we have harpoonest and sharpshooters that can hit at least an AC of 28 or better...
Sometimes FAR more consistently than someone with a 20 BAB even, (meaning they won't miss on a natural 1, they miss less than 1% of the time).
That would put their BAB somewhere in the range of 30 or 40, maybe even 50...(even if we say they do miss 5% of the time somehow)...meaning these snipers and others could be over 30th or 40th level!
And we have many of them.
Our weapons aren't the wimpy PF weapons...the Gun and all the types of ammunition are like Death Spells.
Anyone can have the ability to buy the appropriate death spell, and with enough training, actually use it effectively.
We haven't even gotten into the REALLY decent military weapons yet, and heck, not even close to the heavy weapons a tank might carry (and the armor to prevent it from being destroyed by the same), or the super weapons...
Yes, one bullet can kill any of these creatures in real life and in game. If a creature is in a helpless condition or even treated as such (like standing there and allowing for an opportunity to get shot in the head, though it's a GM's call) is most likely to die from a coup de grace from a high critical multiplying weapon like a gun.
Same with the harpoon example. If a creature is bound and helpless, you can auto hit with any weapon. It doesn't matter if they have 1,000 AC, they still get hit, critted, and forced to save or die. And like with any animal, they pretty much have no special defenses like many magical beasts do, so they are in a pretty bad position.
For wealth accumulation its easy.
Go where they hold the power ball lottery when its around 100 million or more. Cast prestidigitation so the right balls come out and presto you have the winning number
Hah! Clever!
I don't think he'd be permitted near the actual power ball thing, though, would he? He'd have to be in 10 feet, so probably getting a job there as a camera man. I'm uncertain they can bet on the thing itself... though maybe. He'd have to be pretty slick to make it happen while the ball is visible on-camera... hm. Interesting idea.
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I don't think he'd be permitted near the actual power ball thing, though, would he? He'd have to be in 10 feet, so probably getting a job there as a camera man. I'm uncertain they can bet on the thing itself... though maybe. He'd have to be pretty slick to make it happen while the ball is visible on-camera... hm. Interesting idea.
With invisibility and teleportation, it would be moot as to whether or not he'd be "allowed" near the drawing. :) If he were concerned about anyone bumping into him, overland flight would mitigate that as well.
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For wealth accumulation its easy.
Go where they hold the power ball lottery when its around 100 million or more. Cast prestidigitation so the right balls come out and presto you have the winning numberHah! Clever!
I don't think he'd be permitted near the actual power ball thing, though, would he? He'd have to be in 10 feet, so probably getting a job there as a camera man. I'm uncertain they can bet on the thing itself... though maybe. He'd have to be pretty slick to make it happen while the ball is visible on-camera... hm. Interesting idea.
I wouldn't allow prestidigitation to affect more than one ball at best. And that motion would seem anything other than natural, for those who think getting a bunch of wizards to work together would be the answer.
Employees (and their families) of the lottery are forbidden to bet on it. At least in New Jersey.
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Now I'm thinking about a game where instead of the common trope of magic screwing with the function of technology, technology overrides magic.
You fire a bullet at a wizard. That stoneskin might as well not exist.
You take a photo of a scene. Every invisible thing shows up in it clear as day.
It's not antimagic, but it functions as though magic were not there.
Etc.
You have tech users being more real than wizards, but sorcery can achieve marvelous things when not being quashed by science. I guess it's a bit like Mage with Paradox, but less disastrous.
Now I'm thinking about a game where instead of the common trope of magic screwing with the function of technology, technology overrides magic.
You fire a bullet at a wizard. That stoneskin might as well not exist.
You take a photo of a scene. Every invisible thing shows up in it clear as day.
It's not antimagic, but it functions as though magic were not there.
Etc.
You have tech users being more real than wizards, but sorcery can achieve marvelous things when not being quashed by science. I guess it's a bit like Mage with Paradox, but less disastrous.
Those are wimp rules. Use the rules for the Book of Swords, where magic fails if swords are even DRAWN in the same room.
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1. Solved by a lesser wish "I wish I knew as much about this world and its history as an average person of this world" After that he'd probably get the equivalent of a middle or high school education and then lesser wish for "About as much knowledge about this world and how it works as *insert political leader here*"
2. He could get this after doing part 1. After all he is the only magic man in the world and nobody has enough magic to stop him (That's the only reason Razmir hasn't conquered the world, he's not the only big fish)
3. Easily obtained ethically or unethically.
4. If he can reach level 20 or reach one mythic tier he can become immortal. If an Elf he'd have enough years to reach 20.
1. You're making assumptions on what you can get away with wishes. Not everyone is so generous on the power you would give a seventh level spell.
2. If your GM isn't that compliant with wishes.....?
3. If I had a dime for every would be overlord who complained about getting good help....
4. I go by the rule as GM that if you fight something that doesn't challenge you... you don't get xp for it. That's why powerful figures almost always reach a plateau in advancement, it's also why Golarion isn't crawling around with 20th level busybodies. And I refuse to even talk about mythic.
Yeah, limited wish is pretty, well, limited.
That said, I think we're trying to assume as little GM fiat as possible? Otherwise I don't think a conclusion could ever be reached...
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Level 1.
Knowing all the 1st level spells would be helpful, but even Charm Person and Disguise Self would be enough to put herself into positions of power where she could control whole countries and vast fortunes of wealth.
If you want to do it honestly, show some Level 0 spells to Amazing Randi to make the first million dollars. Then tour the talk show circuit charging millions for shows and interviews. You would be a billionaire in a short period of time. From there, just use your fortune to manipulate elections. Done.
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There is no one answer for this. The wizard's GM would keep giving him CR-appropriate challenges, the wizard would keep gaining levels, and he probably would not ever fully succeed. Or, he'd succeed right at the end of the campaign and then retire as the Supreme Ruler, probably at or near level 20 (or however close the campaign gets before the group decides to retire and start a new one).
Title. What level would an optimized wizard need to be, coming over with only his WBL-gear, to conquer earth? Remember, he doesn't speak the language and his Kn History, Kn Local, and Kn Geography checks are useless until he reads up on some local
We'll say he can't use conjuration (calling) spells or travel to any plane he did not create, but all other magic is okay.
My guess is 11.
Assuming magic works in our world?
He gets brutally disposed of by the cabal of bards, sorcerors and psychics who already run the planet, but don't let on to the rest of the population that they exist.
Bcause if magic works, then in a popuation this large some inate / spontaneous casters will get born, eventually, and develop their innate abilities.
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Don't forget your spell book when you get pulled through the magical portal thingy
What level would a bard need to be to conquer our music industry?
What level would a bard need to be to conquer our music industry?
0. Have you ever used the radio?
((As an aside, this is tongue in check but the modern record industry does rely more on made hits- I.E. bands and combinations of people created by the record company and directed by them, as opposed to finding the gifted and highlighting them. Not to discourage the talents of those such as Sara Bareilles, but rather a commentary on how the music industry often makes a hit as opposed to the figure in the recording booth. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as I have nothing bad to say about post production or hiring great writer. Yet, there is a certain loss of raw talent behind clinical combinations of artists and "ft." that goes into a modern hit.))