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Does anyone have a list of 20-30 Arcane spells that are anywhere from 1st-5th lvl that are best to use against a general line up of PC classes?
I have done some searching online and have come up empty handed. I very rarely use spells or even play a spell caster its just not my type of class I like to play so I need some serious help.
Thanks for any advice you can offer.
I recommend Sorcerer guides. Anything a Sorc would want will be useful regularly.
A few considerations, though:
PCs have less immunities.
Use compulsions instead of charms. The meta for charm spells is too much of a hassle.
Actually, depending upon what PC class of NPC you are putting up against the PCs, read a guide for that class (usually you want the most recent one, although a few of the older guides actually get updated). Check on the Zenith Games Guide to the Guides. Something that would be good on a Sorcerer might be not so good on a Wizard, and vice versa, and then the divine spellcasters (you said arcane but eventually you're going to want this too) and 6/9 and 4/9 spellcasters have their own spell lists and optimal tactics. Unfortunately, the only monster guides that I know of (which are also on there) are guides for monster summoning, but do check those out as well.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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PC saves are usually quite high, so a selection of no save debuff and control spells is helpful. I especially like big area effects that don't affect the caster, like deeper darkness if you have see in darkness; many druid spells (entangle, spike stones, etc.) if you fly; cloudkill/stinking cloud/acid fog/sleet storm and the like if you have freedom of movement and some way to see through it. Waves of fatigue and waves of exhaustion are nice no-saves. You can get some good defensive combos with things like greater invisibility and nondetection.
Wall of Thorns. Absolute madness as far as battlefield control goes.
Confusion is always a pain in a PCs ass
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If you're playing as a DM, I'd suggest Spells that don't take control away from the player.
Losing control of your character is annoying, and there's nothing you can do.
Usually crowd control like Entangle, things that impair vision and such are much better because they force PCs to be more strategic and more careful.
Casting Glitterdust (for example) sucks for a PC. You're basically screwed, you can't move, act or do anything almost.
And we're talking minimum 3 rounds when it's available.
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As the GM I find that NPC spell choice is not so much about what's most effective but about what creates a combat situation that is interesting and fun.
This means I prefer to avoid effects that can completely take a PC out of combat and which are negated by a save, like Sleep or Hold Person, because if they work the player is sitting on their hands and likely bored or frustrated, and if they don't work the BBEG has done nothing in one of the few short turns they get. Instead, I like spells that have a lesser effect on a failed save (or at least hit several targets so odds are better someone will fail) and ones that create lasting hazards on the battlefield. Of course, most casters will also want defensive spells for themselves, or buffs for allies or minions.
1 - Grease, Obscuring Mist, Snowball, Shocking Grasp/Chill Touch/Frostbite (for a magus or other tougher caster), Ray of Enfeeblement, Mage Armor, Shield, Enlarge Person (with a melee-focused ally), Protection from Good
2 - Create Pit, Fog Cloud, Glitterdust (sparingly - blindness sucks but they can still act), Web, See Invisibility, Touch of Idiocy, Darkness (if caster has Darkvision), Scorching Ray, Invisibility (gives you time to buff), Mirror Image, False Life, Haunting Mists
3 - Dispel Magic, Magic Circle against Good, Spiked Pit, Ice Spears, Suggestion (needs a bit of creativity, best if you can disrupt player tactics without completely taking a PC out of the fight), Fireball, Displacement, Isolate (not really powerful, but fun!), Fly, Haste (if you have martial allies), Greater Magic Weapon (ditto), Heroism, Slow
4 - Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Scrying (if they know enough about the PCs to spy on them), Crushing Despair, Ball Lightning, Greater Invisibility, Boneshatter, Enervation, Elemental Body I (Air Elemental), Obsidian Flow, Stoneskin
5 - Hungry Pit, Cloudkill (aiming for the Con damage), Wall of Stone/Wall of Force (split the party for a few rounds or get time to regroup), Suffocation (sparingly, it's nasty!), Elemental Body II (Air), Fire Snake
YMMV on Summon Monster spells. Many people like them, but I find they are often little more than a minor speed bump for the PCs. Of course, my group plays relatively high-powered games so you might find them more threatening if you play with 15-20pb and don't max HP.
Remember to have casters use longer-duration buffs like Mage Armor or Heroism before combat whenever plausible.
Enervation is the bane of all PCs.
Thanks everyone you all have been a great help. I am DMing the game so I just need so things to mix it up. I think that many of you said don't take the players control away and I fully agree with that.
I recommend just not taking away control of the PC when they are charmed - simply tell them their new objectives and let them continue to play their charmed/dominated character.
If they are knocked out entirely from the fight for whatever reason, hand over stats for one or more monsters and let them play those monsters for the fight.
You should do your absolute best to avoid being stuck with players doing nothing for a 30+ min combat.
I second Enervation as being a bane to PC's at all levels.
Players that are thinking they are rocking the encounter suddenly lose 1-4 levels and corresponding BAB, CMB/D, etc... immediate fear in the middle of combat, but be careful, multiple uses could kill a PC.
2 of them killed a 7th level paladin in our Mummy's Mask AP.
Weirdos's list is great. I'll add that defennsiive spells that PCCs can''t save against are awesome
Mirror Image, Fly, Invisibility, Blur, Stoneskin, and Energy Resistance are great. Make the PCs work for hit.
My personal favorite though is the combo of a Familiar with a wand or oil of Ill Omen and a Witch or Wizard casting Accursed Glare. The duration is days per level. If the PCs are on a time-sensitive mission, and one of them gets hit with that curse, it can really shake up thier tactics. All of a sudden the cursed person will be trying to only take actions that don't require rolls. It gets super ineresting.
Yes, forgot about Blur and Mirror Image. Handy at ANY level.
The PC's are 12 level now and STILL have problems overcoming that basic spell, wasting potential smites and other melee damage on images.
An Alchemist with Smoke Bombs and VMC Oracle (Flame) with the Gaze of Flames Revelation and a polearm could also be a real threat, especially if accompanied by minions equipped with Blindfighting, Blindsight, or at least Blindsense. You can get some of this with a spellcaster with the same revelation using Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud, or Pyrotechnics, but these are either easier for PCs to counter or more dangerous to the user (Pyrotechnics).
For a laugh, if you have Goblin spellcasters (preferably multiple ones), have them zip around in the initial stage of their attack using Nauseating Trail for battlefield control
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First and Foremost I would highly suggest no Caster be Alone...Always have them accompanied by Mooks or Special Generals.
Slow- This Counters haste which is usually a boss battle buff from PCs anyways.
Black tentacles + Cloud spell (Cloud Kill)- If this hits the right targets...Looking at the divine casters who dumped str...this can kill them...and the ones who can not immediately get out...well its gonna hurt...badly.
Enervation- Single Target Debuff...I highly recommend hitting the Melee Bruiser as it: Lowers their saves, attack, and checks while dealing 5 damage per level drained.
Greater Dispel Magic- SO they like to come into the room buffed....now they wasted those buffs.
Wind Wall or Fickle Winds- Best way to hose a Archer. Usually Archers DPR is the best on the team...turning it off really makes the fight a struggle.
Antimagic Field + Construct or Fighter Mooks- All those magic items become mundane and it is a battle of Feats, HP, and BaB
Reverse Gravity- Cause this is funny to do.
Waves of Exhaustion- No save and HURTS melee guys.
Toppling Metamagic (rod or Feat)+ Magic Missile- Damage and very annoying to be tripping people so they can not full attack but waste movements to get up.
Pushing Hand+ AoE spell- Keep shoving them back into clouds, Tentacles, pits, and
Wall of Force/Stone + AoE- After they are blinded by the cloud they wont see the wall till its too late keeping them in the effect for extra time. If your lucky you can also cast 2 walls thus boxing them into the Area of Effect till they are dead. I myself have killed many Creatures with this strategy.
Fear- Cause them running is funny
Confusion- Best if targets are in a cloud or something as the Do nothing become stay in my spell effect. If anything you could confuse their main Damage dealer into attacking a teammate.
Maze- No save and most fighter types will be out the fight unless they are super lucky enough to roll a Nat 20 and if they Dumped Int...they are not getting out till the spell duration ends.
First and Foremost I would highly suggest no Caster be Alone...Always have them accompanied by Mooks or Special Generals.
{. . .}
Antimagic Field + Construct or Fighter Mooks- All those magic items become mundane and it is a battle of Feats, HP, and BaB
{. . .}
Antimagic Field + non-metallic Construct or Monk/Rogue/Ninja mooks with non-metallic weapons + Rust Monsters. All those magic items become mundane and it is a battle of Feats, HP, and BaB, and suddenly the Monks, Rogues, or Ninjas can hit really hard and fast, and most of the PCs can't.
Dispel Magic is actually a lot better than you might think...
Frostfall + rime spell metamagic = autoentangle on almost everything not immune (or very resistant) to cold.
Elemental aura (cold) could work well, too.
In both cases a failed save (and the condition it confers) is just icing on the cake.
Does anyone have a list of 20-30 Arcane spells that are anywhere from 1st-5th lvl that are best to use against a general line up of PC classes?
I have done some searching online and have come up empty handed. I very rarely use spells or even play a spell caster its just not my type of class I like to play so I need some serious help.
Thanks for any advice you can offer.
It's not major rocket science. If your NPC knows what he's fighting... he'll use spells that target weak points... Fort save spells for sorcerer/wizards and rogues, Reflex and Will at Fighters, etc.
Confusion is always a good anti-party spell. Anything that inhibits a party's ability to coordinate or communicate.
Otherwise... remember your environment. I remember one 5 foot hallway specifically designed to force a party into lightning bolt formation, which a certain magus took full advantage of.
Just use alchemists with injection spears and Skinsend.
Afterwards, you can start a new campaign with fresh players.
I am suddenly worried about this plan.Just use alchemists with injection spears and Skinsend.
Afterwards, you can start a new campaign with fresh players.
Does anyone have a list of 20-30 Arcane spells that are anywhere from 1st-5th lvl that are best to use against a general line up of PC classes?
I have done some searching online and have come up empty handed. I very rarely use spells or even play a spell caster its just not my type of class I like to play so I need some serious help.
Thanks for any advice you can offer.
Anything with attribute drain/damage, bestows negative levels, paralyzes, diseases, poisons or in some way attacks everything except HP. Why?
If you hit a PC's HP, the player just shrugs: whatever, that is what it is there for. If you start lowering their statistics, bestowing negative levels, giving them diseases and poisoning them, then they have the simple reality that they are now going to be going into future encounters weaker than they were before. One major tip is to ensure you cut off their escape because if you don't, then they will just run in, take some damage, retreat about 10 miles away, rest, come back and rinse and repeat until they clear the content.
The simple reality is that ability damage/drain is more hampering to the PCs than just hurting them. You associate victory with defeat when the penalty for fighting can't be removed with a quick few low level spells or a wand of cure light wounds.
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Is anybody a fan of Boxing? The sport where guys beat each other for 12 rounds?
I ask because there's a useful analogy here. Bear with me.
In Boxing, lots of guys just go for the head all round long. They know (correctly) that if they land a great headshot, the fight could end right there. So they keep trying. The other guy, of course, keeps ducking. Sometimes this works, sometimes not.
Other boxers like to punch to the body. It's almost impossible to knock somebody out, particularly a well-trained athlete, with body punches. So why do it?
It wears the guy out. Those body punches hurt the muscles, sap the wind (breathing), and cause a lot of exhaustion. A boxer who has been hit a hundred times to the body is going to find it difficult, perhaps impossible, to breathe well. With oxygen depletion all his muscles, including legs to stand on and arms to throw punches, get very weak. He loses his ability to throw dangerous punches. If you do it right, he becomes practically helpless, certainly harmless.
But fighting that way is boring. No fun. No fun for the fans, either - everybody likes headshots.
What does this have to do with spellcasting?
There are a lot of posts in here saying don't use spells that take control away from a player because it's no fun. Just like body blows are no fun.
I wholeheartedly disagree.
One problem with the mid- to high-level game is the Rocket Tag. Everyone does tons of damage and doesn't worry about defense. I guess some players like it that way but it seems that majority of posts I've read would like less rocket tag.
I think of a campaign's 20 levels like a 20 level boxing match.
As a GM, I can spend 20 levels going for head shots. Bam, nuke to the head, save or take all this damage. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Meanwhile, that fighter is getting bigger swords, deadlier feats, and playing high-damage rocket tag with all my monsters.
Or I can go for body blows. Save or go screaming down the hall and don't come back until the fight is over. Save or stand frozen in place while your friends fight. Save or become the BBEG's pet and help him kill your friends.
Everybody hates these spells. No fun! Waaah!
But they serve a purpose. They're the body blows. Do it in enough fights, and later in life (higher levels), that fighter doesn't have enough oxygen to be a dangerous threat anymore.
Well, OK, I don't want to go that far. I just said that for the analogy.
But what really happens is the fighter starts investing in saving throws and SR and items that keep him in the fight. That means he spends less of his cash investing in getting better at Rocket Tag.
Ultimately, as a GM, I'd rather not face a 15th level fighter with an amazing weapon and crappy saves. That second guy will shred every encounter and make them trivial OR I'll dominate him and keep him from doing it. I don't want EITHER of those situations.
I'd much rather face a 15th level fighter with a decent weapon and decent saves. This guy won't trivialize my encounters and I won't auto-dominate him in every fight.
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In short, using SOS spells at lower levels trains the players to invest in keeping themselves in the fight. That investment reduces their investment in encounter-trivializing rocket tag offense. This makes the high-level game far more interesting for everyone.
So use these spells. Sparingly enough to not ruin anybody's fun, but often enough to set the stage and alter the game play to a more balanced, less rocket-taggy kind of game.
. . . And don't hand out too much loot with which the PCs can become walking ICBM silos.
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Many spells have already been pointed out. I'd like to add some stuff on tactics and environment.
Use the environment, create situations to overcome instead of one-save effects.
Also, if the NPCs are in their everyday environment, they will have had time to think ahead and come up with a battle plan. Every time PCs suddenly "get" that plan and come up with ways to counter it, you will have created a memorable experience in which the group can interact and cooperate.
Cater to skill monkeys (survival, perception, knowledge, even craft) as well as damage dealers (mooks, summons) or mages (counter environment modifications, switch off/debuff key NPCs temporarily).
The rules for movement and visibility/cover (if used transparently and comprehensibly) are something to enjoy playing with and can empower agility PCs like monks, rogues, etc.
examples:
Let an NPC caster set stuff on fire to create barriers, smoke, breathing problems for normal humanoids. Then make use of outsiders/elementals that ignore parts of the fire/smoke effect or all of it.
or
Blow up water barrells and create ice surfaces.
or
Enlarge enemies in cramped environments, then swarm them with mooks.
or
Use illusions together with conjuration effects (the pit spells come to mind) to confuse the group.
or
Simply switch off the lights.
Alternatively, use crowd control that one/few of your PCs can counter (fear effects with a paladin present, bard stuff for bards) to empower them. Anything that separates the group can create suspense as long as the PCs are not left completely out of options (place secret doors, create detours through difficult environments, etc.).
Finally, think of how different NPC casters work methodically. Sorcerers might be more impulsive and into direct damage stuff. Wizards are per definition intelligent planners, play them like that. Druids can cause havoc in nature environments, Clerics are ideal crowd controllers/buffers in large faithful groups that will die for them without question.
tldr: Let the caster NPC and the environment he is in lead you as a GM in your creation of memorable and effective encounters.
Casting Glitterdust (for example) sucks for a PC. You're basically screwed, you can't move, act or do anything almost.
And we're talking minimum 3 rounds when it's available.
It's not as bad as that. You can move while blind. You can attack while blind (with heavy penalties). You can drink potions while blind. And you get a new save every round. The only major problem is the 'meta' of trying to work around the fact that the player knows exactly where the enemy is but the PC has to figure it out from memory, logic and listening.
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Is anybody a fan of Boxing? The sport where guys beat each other for 12 rounds?
I ask because there's a useful analogy here. Bear with me.
In Boxing, lots of guys just go for the head all round long. They know (correctly) that if they land a great headshot, the fight could end right there. So they keep trying. The other guy, of course, keeps ducking. Sometimes this works, sometimes not.
Other boxers like to punch to the body. It's almost impossible to knock somebody out, particularly a well-trained athlete, with body punches. So why do it?
It wears the guy out. Those body punches hurt the muscles, sap the wind (breathing), and cause a lot of exhaustion. A boxer who has been hit a hundred times to the body is going to find it difficult, perhaps impossible, to breathe well. With oxygen depletion all his muscles, including legs to stand on and arms to throw punches, get very weak. He loses his ability to throw dangerous punches. If you do it right, he becomes practically helpless, certainly harmless.
But fighting that way is boring. No fun. No fun for the fans, either - everybody likes headshots.
What does this have to do with spellcasting?
There are a lot of posts in here saying don't use spells that take control away from a player because it's no fun. Just like body blows are no fun.
I wholeheartedly disagree.
One problem with the mid- to high-level game is the Rocket Tag. Everyone does tons of damage and doesn't worry about defense. I guess some players like it that way but it seems that majority of posts I've read would like less rocket tag.
I think of a campaign's 20 levels like a 20 level boxing match.
As a GM, I can spend 20 levels going for head shots. Bam, nuke to the head, save or take all this damage. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Meanwhile, that fighter is getting bigger swords, deadlier feats, and playing high-damage rocket tag with all my monsters.
Or I can go for body blows. Save or go screaming down the hall and don't come back until the fight is...
Really good advise ... I am inspired for me next campaign!
Is anybody a fan of Boxing? The sport where guys beat each other for 12 rounds?
This!
I think Rocket Tag is so prefered by many players because they
a) feel the more powerful the more damage they deal, but also...
b) Pathfinder's (and D&D's for that matter) damage dealing systems are simplest to understand, use and exploit, so that's what players tend to go for.
The more knowledge about other mechanisms you demand your players have and the more you use those mechanisms yourself, the more they will incorporate them in their playstyle and the less they will feel out of their depth.
I have begun to outsource responsibility for situational modifiers (to attack, AC, and so on) to individual players that now act as go-to guys and give a player the modifier/info he is looking for. We use laminated cheat sheets for that.
Dominate and charm effects are something different, but can be solved similarly. Prepare a cheat sheet with simple guidelines for a charmed or dominated character to follow, based on what you think comes closest to the PCs usual behaviour:
[Charm]
You are trying to protect your new friend by
[ ] not interfering in the fight [ ] aiding him indirectly (heal, give potion, etc.) [ ] blocking/tripping/grappling PCs [ ] attacking everyone getting too close [ ] attacking the biggest threat to your "friend" [ ] _______
[Dominate]
This is way simpler. You are overriding individual choice completely. Just give the player a quickly scribbled cheat sheet with a direct order that his PC has to act on. Only should this not work effectively (player holds back, tries to cheat, etc.) would I take over control of a PC. And even then I'd try to give him something useful to do.
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I'd normally think of the SoL effects as the "head shots" since they're a one hit win while stuff like damage slowly wears you down. DM Blake makes a good case for that reversed analogy though. Sometimes my own PCs end up focusing on defense so much that the DM or other players might accuse them of being boring (like Floyd Mayweather some might say)
When playing a Fighter I sometimes feel like Will saves are low blows though. Sure, I can take steps to mitigate the risk like wearing a cup and a +5 cloak of resistance, but when I get hit by a SoL I sometimes have to take a rest whether I want it or not, and it is often more than 5 minutes. If the party isn't well prepared with spells like Protection from Evil those sorts of issues can go on for hours. I think debuffs are better "body blows" for both the PCs and the DM, and I tend to focus on those a lot especially as a PC since I think they're not only more fun than "rocket tag" but also perhaps a little more reliable in the long run.
Simple stuff like intimidation can take offense down a notch. If the DM uses ability damage, ability drain, negative levels, lots of poison, etc that can drain the party's coffers kind of like buying saving throw boosts. If it is clear that the PCs are going to get hit with this stuff fairly consistently they'll often start buying the counters. Going back to the original topic of the thread for a moment I'll nominate True Strike as a great spell to use against players from time to time, especially if the attack it boosts carries a nasty effect like negative levels, a powerful Poison, etc.
Back to the low blows analogy, I didn't mean to say powers which remove a player's control should never be used. Some boxers like Bernard Hopkins would probably consider low blows to be "part of boxing" and something that can be used from time to time to gain an advantage, kind of like holding. If you keep fouling repeatedly in boxing the ref might step in and take a point or even eventually disqualify you though, sort of like if you keep on taking away the player's control he might eventually complain or give up.
To repeat some previous posts
SLOW. If the party is hasted then that is countered. If not they can only do a single action, no full attacks etc. It really ruins the day of anyone who fails the save, but does not take them out of the fight. Players have to adapt.
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My group has never had a problem with rocket tag. I think effects causing ability damage, drain, negative levels, or conditions like exhausted, staggered, or blinded are plenty effective at motivating players to invest in their defenses without making them completely unable to act.
As Grey Lensman said, this isn't to say that I never use save-or-sit out effects, but they're not at the top of my toolbox.