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A situation has been brewing for some time at the local lodge. A normal week would see 3-4 tables of PFS fire. The venue is extremely accommodating. Honestly its the best possible case scenario and the organizers could ask for nothing more. However. Not so recently an elderly couple joined the lodge. Veterans of the DnD rpg genre of decades. One is also the former owner of a local game store with many relationships and friends made over the years. After a few months of the couple attending it became apparent that they would never be the most skilled players, but as we know that isn't an issue, Paizo/PFS community and all.
Fast forward a year and a pox has risen with these two its cause. After having characters "carried" through scenarios and reaching mid level the two were unable to contribute even marginally when necessary and were factors in multiple TPK's as content demanded more participation. Other players began to realize that the addition of these two people (who always play together, never apart) at a table was ultimately a handicap. Players began to actively avoid tables these two were at and organizers began to be forced into awkward situations when it came to mustering. GM's, whom we all know are a resource that must be fostered, began to secretly muster games so as to avoid the addition of the couple in question. This continued to create difficult situations. Players began to openly look to the organizers for a resolution to the issue, and began to not attend the weekly PFS night.
Those GM's who didn't refuse to run games with the couple became few, and only new players who were unaware were to be found in their games, players without the skill to carry the handicap. This has resulted in lower level TPK's and new players to PFS not returning. The husband always plays a rogue style character (ranged) and the wife a "healer" that is usually a Druid more concerned ooc with the survival of her animal companion than anything. Near zero contribution in combat, and NO contribution in social encounters.
Now, attendance is at an all time low. 1 maybe 2 tables. Obviously a resolution is necessary so as to prevent the continued withering of the Lodge. Asking these two to no longer attend is the only solution. But how do you do so without damaging opinion of the venue and of the Paizo community? Let alone the fallout from personal relationships that could be effected.
The "pillars" of the lodge have given up. Our Venture Officer has been unable to offer a solution. What say you? How should this be handled?
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Yes. It's best to talk to them out of game and just be honest.
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Asking them not to show is not the only solution. Help them with builds , help them to up their game, someone find a way to get rangedrogue regular applications of vanish or improved invis. Do a mock combat with the buffed up animal companion so they can see how hard it is to hurt them, show them that its just 1k gold for an animal companion to come back from the dead (raise animal companion)
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Are they good people who would be enjoyable to play with if it weren't for their lack of contribution in PFS? If so, maybe you could organize a home campaign that they could be part of instead of PFS?
Good idea. Even better, get them up to speed on PFS expectations for higher levels.
You could print out Painlord's guide and distribute it to your whole lodge so no one feels singled out, for example.
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You're in a tough spot. I won't mince words here.
From your OP, it sounds like they're a lost cause and them attending game days will only be a negative for the group from this point forward.
Once people are choosing to stay home rather than show up and chance playing with them, severe damage has already been done.
The process of taking these players by the hand, convincing them that what they are currently doing isn't up to par, and showing them step by step how to improve, would take a lot of time. A *lot* of time. And even then the chances of success are minimal. These aren't new players to the gaming world. These are people who have done things a certain way for years, and my experience with the elderly is that they don't learn/change too quickly, if at all, ever. Just linking them to an internet guide and thinking that will help at all will be completely useless.
Even *if* someone did all that, you'd then have to convince others to please come back, I promise they're getting a bit better, they're not all that awful I swear! I wouldn't buy that story and I doubt others will.
Good luck with this spot. It sucks.
Venture-Captain, Iowa—Quad Cities
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I’m from the same lodge and have invested time into trying to help them out. Meeting with them on different days trying to offer advice and teach them more about the game. After helping fix their characters trying to explain how some of their class abilities work, how BAB increases attack roll and so on many times. They will only play the same two chars a rogue and a healer druid 99% of the time. I’ve seen the druid as a cleric once and the rogue as a sorcerer but then they still only want to play the rogue and druid. Even if in a situation where they have a skill they can use out of combat they won’t. The two of them have said many times “We are here only to fight and roll dice.” They get upset if you attack them or you try to make them do a skill check. Everyone has to make a check to get across into the next area. They just move their minis into the next area and want to move on. As the other player’s making the checks get upset if you just let them get away with it or have them get upset that they have to do it. Even if the GM just says ok roll diplomacy and tell me what you get they don’t want to do it and won’t do it the vast majority of the time. They are the first ones to always run away leaving other players to die. They get upset if someone else brings in a healer because they are stealing her job from her. She won’t heal because she won’t get into the combat the vast majority of the time or will ignore someone telling her they are dying and will just run or keep shooting the bow. Even trying to explain to her that if she was a cleric where she could channel at range to heal and stay safe. It is refused because she wants to be a druid with her bear animal companion. Time after time I’ve tried and a good amount of the time I’m just told off with “They have been playing this game longer then I have been alive and they know what they are doing.” It seems to me the more time that passes the less they want to listen. They are nice but they are driving players and GM’s away. I don’t want to be someone who just tells them to leave, but not sure how to keep going with this one and make everyone happy. I would love any advice you can offer.
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We have a situation like this whee I game. When I started We had 4-5 tables now we are lucky to get 2. I keep hearing people complain about a couple of people but nothing i ever done. People will remove themselves from playing when they see people play and it hurts the lodge. It is so bad that we have to set up a table just for them.
I was planing on running a special Sat event after New years. Give away prizes and make general merry but as soon as this couple signed up about half my others who signed dropped. Now I am told that we can not ask them not to play due to the pairs connection to the store owners.
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The husband always plays a rogue style character (ranged) and the wife a "healer" that is usually a Druid more concerned ooc with the survival of her animal companion than anything. Near zero contribution in combat, and NO contribution in social...
So if I'm reading this right, by "skill" you mean they play very non-optimal characters?
Someone probably should have explained things to them months ago. Everyone's character needs to do *something* somewhat effective. Offer to help them in item purchases, character building, and playstyle. Often people just don't know or don't have the time to learn.
If they dismiss all help then that's a different problem. Is it better to be all inclusive and kill your lodge or be "rude" and disallow 2 players?
I GM a home game and I'm in this process myself. The characters are almost level 7 now and things are getting a lot more difficult. As it is, I'm cherry picking weaker scenarios so they don't get crushed in combat. But I'm also teaching them better playstyles, better gear purchases (or rather to even use gold), character auditing (missing 10 hp on one character!), and feat suggestions. So far so good, but it's a process.
Also encountered this problem at a convention. Subtier 6-7, my brother and I basically needed to complete the entire scenario. Had one guy shooting magic missiles from a wand (1d4+1), another guy was a face character with no combat ability (even against a humanoids?), a healing cleric, and a druid with a defensive animal companion. 0 prestige, lucky to come out alive, would be dead with most other characters. Not sure what to do with groups like this except to let them die and hopefully they won't take you down with them. If they were local to me, I'd avoid them too. But really, someone should really be offering them help. You carry 1 guy that can't contribute in combat but not 3. Funny thing is, they probably thought of us as minmax munchkins and that we were the problem. And that's how it is!
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Meeting with them on different days trying to offer advice and teach them more about the game.
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Even if in a situation where they have a skill they can use out of combat they won’t. The two of them have said many times “We are here only to fight and roll dice.” They get upset if you attack them or you try to make them do a skill check. Everyone has to make a check to get across into the next area. They just move their minis into the next area and want to move on. As the other player’s making the checks get upset if you just let them get away with it or have them get upset that they have to do it. They are the first ones to always run away leaving other players to die.
What are you waiting for?
1) Enforce the rules. If they don't want to make the Climb check, they sit in the pit for the scenario. Letting them cheat and having one set of rules for some players and another set of rules is a GM problem, not a player problem. Please consider that some players might have left not because of the couple, but because of the GMs catering to cheating and favoritism.
2) Stop soft balling. They get upset if you attack their character? Your GMs need to make things fair and if they avoid attacking the couple in favor of other players, they are part of the problem.
Ultimately, it a GM/leadership problem. GMs shouldn't allow players to cheat, ignore rules, and there shouldn't be favoritism. Favoritism kills tables in home campaigns, it kills tables in PFS venues also.
If your GMs were tougher with them, the couple would have left on their own already.
If they're disruptive and continue to ignore the rules and the GM, kick them from the table. If it happens again, feel free to tell them they're not welcome at the venue and report this to a VO. Problem solved.
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Lots of stuff suggesting you've made an effort to work with these people.
You've tried to work with them. Either give them one more warning on your local forums or publically state that a number of players, due to behavior issues will no longer be allowed to sign up.
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Lots of stuff suggesting you've made an effort to work with these people.You've tried to work with them. Either give them one more warning on your local forums or publically state that a number of players, due to behavior issues will no longer be allowed to sign up.
Omf. People problems. I have no idea how to deal with these things. It sounds rough.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Talk to the owner of the store, and tell him about the cause of the fall in attendance, and mention that you might need to take corrective action against the players harming the community. Most store owners will be very interested in anything that could harm their business.
Then talk to the players in private and tell them that you have had complaints that they aren't being team players, and if they don't start working on contributing more to the games that you'll need to ask them find a new group to play with.
Clearly tell them the problem, how they can improve, and the consequences. The important thing is to be clear about what they need to do, so it will be up to them to comply. If they choose not to comply with the warnings to improve their attitude. Then you shouldn't feel bad about having to ask them to leave.
If they end up getting banned from that location they can always try running a game of their own.
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Venture-Agent, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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From the description of BexLee I would call them disruptive and ask them to leave. They clearly have caused far too much harm to your group.
I agree that the description given above by BexLee should qualify as disruptive. I do not foresee this ending with everyone happy.
I would suggest an official talk with them. State that they are causing a problem in the group and if no way is found to correct it you will be forced to ban them.
Talk about the Pathfinder Society and how they are supposed to "Explore, Cooperate, Report". It is expected that the characters work as a group.
Things that must change:
- They must make any required skill rolls. They are allowed to take 10 in many cases, but no more refusing to make the rolls.
- They should not complain about other characters people bring in. It is part of the play style that the groups are somewhat random and it is often likely there will be overlap.
- They need to work for the good of the group.
- They must not pull any more "I've been gaming longer than you were alive" or similar arguments. The game has changed a lot since the days of the boxed set and they need to change what they are doing to accommodate that.
As for the Druid, has anyone pointed out that with a cleric who has Animal Domain they can get the bear? If they buy Animal Archive (the book), they could even take Boon Companion feat so it is at full power. As a former game store owner, he should understand wanting people to buy the book if they are to use a resource.
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Meeting with them on different days trying to offer advice and teach them more about the game.
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Even if in a situation where they have a skill they can use out of combat they won’t. The two of them have said many times “We are here only to fight and roll dice.” They get upset if you attack them or you try to make them do a skill check. Everyone has to make a check to get across into the next area. They just move their minis into the next area and want to move on. As the other player’s making the checks get upset if you just let them get away with it or have them get upset that they have to do it. They are the first ones to always run away leaving other players to die.What are you waiting for?
1) Enforce the rules. If they don't want to make the Climb check, they sit in the pit for the scenario. Letting them cheat and having one set of rules for some players and another set of rules is a GM problem, not a player problem. Please consider that some players might have left not because of the couple, but because of the GMs catering to cheating and favoritism.
2) Stop soft balling. They get upset if you attack their character? Your GMs need to make things fair and if they avoid attacking the couple in favor of other players, they are part of the problem.
Ultimately, it a GM/leadership problem. GMs shouldn't allow players to cheat, ignore rules, and there shouldn't be favoritism. Favoritism kills tables in home campaigns, it kills tables in PFS venues also.
If your GMs were tougher with them, the couple would have left on their own already.
If they're disruptive and continue to ignore the rules and the GM, kick them from the table. If it happens again, feel free to tell them they're not welcome at the venue and report this to a VO. Problem solved.
This is the issue. You don't want to play by the rules? You stay behind then. Here's your chronicle with 0 xp 0 prestige and 0 gold. Have a nice life, or come play the game.
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Ok so you have two jerks at the table that refuse to play the game fairly. Then to make the problem worse you do not have DMs that put their foot down.
These people do not know the rules and bully other players(telling what characters that other people can not play is bullying).
If I Dmed for them they would probably leave my table. If they did not make the required climb checks and ignored them and moved on. I would ignore their requests the rest of the game and tell them they are stuck at that climb.
They are not playing PFS. They are playing a different game similar to it. I do not bring in monopoly to a poker game and demand the game change to adjust to what i am comfortable playing. Them using the fallacy they played the game longer than you been alive is dumb on countless points. The current chess WORLD champion is 25 (Magnus carlsen what an awesome name!). Second pathfinder is not that old and different game. Third it is elitism to discount other people just based on experience.
Make them play the game they came to. If they do not want to; then you are not asking them to leave, but forcing everyone else at the table to leave.
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Another thread about how people are too afraid to talk to others.
2 players allowed to ruin an entire lodge.
You should have listened to Spock in wrarh of khan.
Shame on the vo's and gms involved.
Ok, come on. Cut them a little slack.
Its not exactly a great secret that dumping charisma isn't just for our characters. A huge irony in our hobby is that is a social game with more than its fair share of members that are notably lacking in social skills.
Gaming has given many of us a sense of community with kindred spirits in a society quick to shun and isolate anything remotely perceived as different. Many of us know how well how much that hurts and are understandably reluctant to do that to someone else.
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Another thread about how people are too afraid to talk to others.
2 players allowed to ruin an entire lodge.
You should have listened to Spock in wrarh of khan.
Shame on the vo's and gms involved.Ok, come on. Cut them a little slack.
Its not exactly a great secret that dumping charisma isn't just for our characters. A huge irony in our hobby is that is a social game with more than its fair share of members that are notably lacking in social skills.
Gaming has given many of us a sense of community with kindred spirits in a society quick to shun and isolate anything remotely perceived as different. Many of us know how well how much that hurts and are understandably reluctant to do that to someone else.
That is a poor excuse.
No excuse for the vos in that area to shun their responsibility.|
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Another thread about how people are too afraid to talk to others.
2 players allowed to ruin an entire lodge.
You should have listened to Spock in wrarh of khan.
Shame on the vo's and gms involved.Ok, come on. Cut them a little slack.
Its not exactly a great secret that dumping charisma isn't just for our characters. A huge irony in our hobby is that is a social game with more than its fair share of members that are notably lacking in social skills.
Gaming has given many of us a sense of community with kindred spirits in a society quick to shun and isolate anything remotely perceived as different. Many of us know how well how much that hurts and are understandably reluctant to do that to someone else.That is a poor excuse.
No excuse for the vos in that area to shun their responsibility.
I agree. If you do not have the "charisma" to do the job right maybe you should find someone that does.
A VO should always help PFSers from bullys.
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Another thread about how people are too afraid to talk to others.
2 players allowed to ruin an entire lodge.
You should have listened to Spock in wrarh of khan.
Shame on the vo's and gms involved.
Well... wait a moment. To be fair, we have 2 people from the lodge here describing how they took these people aside and talked to them repeatedly (and helping them with builds). The problem here doesn't seem to be:
- We are too scared to talk to them.
Instead, the problem seems to be this:
- Everyone always says "talk to each other like adults" so we DID, at length, with multiple people and multiple tries, and yet it didn't work out.
- So... what now?
(I understand that you may be suggesting that the GMs should be talking to the 2 players more right in the middle of the game when they are refusing to do a skill check or whatever, but your statement was so broad that I felt the need to defend these 2 posters and their lodge. I mean, they seriously seem to have tried the "talk like adults" approach a HUGE amount. That approach is what is traditionally supposed to work! So this is a whole new area. I think that's why some responders are really stumped. This is not normal.)
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So if they don't make skill checks that are required to continue the module you leave them behind. If they move their characters forward without making the appropriate skill check as gm inform them that they cannot continue the scenario without making the skill check. If the refuse, explain to them they need to make the roll or leave the table. Period.
Then deal with the situation as it unfolds.
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I have seen three different people do similar things and it does effect the amount of people coming.
When people stand up against them the bullies will either quit coming or stop playing at the person standing up agaisnt them. Eventually the amount of people they refuse to play with because they are nto allowed to be jerks will shrink and they wills top coming too.
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Another thread about how people are too afraid to talk to others.
2 players allowed to ruin an entire lodge.
You should have listened to Spock in wrarh of khan.
Shame on the vo's and gms involved.Well... wait a moment. To be fair, we have 2 people from the lodge here describing how they took these people aside and talked to them repeatedly (and helping them with builds). The problem here doesn't seem to be:
- We are too scared to talk to them.
Instead, the problem seems to be this:
- Everyone always says "talk to each other like adults" so we DID, at length, with multiple people and multiple tries, and yet it didn't work out.
- So... what now?
(I understand that you may be suggesting that the GMs should be talking to the 2 players more right in the middle of the game when they are refusing to do a skill check or whatever, but your statement was so broad that I felt the need to defend these 2 posters and their lodge. I mean, they seriously seem to have tried the "talk like adults" approach a HUGE amount. That approach is what is traditionally supposed to work! So this is a whole new area. I think that's why some responders are really stumped. This is not normal.)
The vo needs to simply tell them the issues. Show them the pfs guide where they are in violation.
If you do not adhere to the rules, then you are not allowed to play at this venue.Next game they do as described in op and that lodges poster, they are dismissed from table and not allowed to play at this venue.
No mincing words. Tell them straight up and enforce it.
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The vo needs to simply tell them the issues. Show them the pfs guide where they are in violation.
Not doing the rare skill check that you are obligated to do is the only thing they're in objective violation of. Everything else is the subjective evaluation of jerkiness and non cooperation. While those standards are incredibly important and very real they are almost wholly subjective. You can't really wave the guide at them in this case.
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Not doing the rare skill check that you are obligated to do is the only thing they're in objective violation of. Everything else is the subjective evaluation of jerkiness and non cooperation. While those standards are incredibly important and very real they are almost wholly subjective. You can't really wave the guide at them in this case.The vo needs to simply tell them the issues. Show them the pfs guide where they are in violation.
Telling other players what they can or cannot play is a jerk move.
Elitism using their age as a reasons to completely dismiss someone is a jerk move.
Getting upset for being attacked/targeted is a jerk/sophomoric move.
Now I understand people have their delusion bubbles and can not see themselves in such a manner, but they are bullies and jerks if what said is true.
Jerks and bullies often do not care what rules you show them. If they played the game longer(not this version of it) than someone has been alive why would they pay attention when that same person shows thema rule about being a jerk?
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Not this scenario, not this couple (as far as I know) but there is a couple that I've played at a few tables with (in this campaign as well as some others) who seem to have hearing problems.
As the slot goes on, they start getting louder as if they're not being heard, which prompts the rest of the table to kind of stare at them... and then they raise their voices more because they keep thinking they're not being heard.
I'm not an expert on game mastery by any means, but I was rather stunned by how much I was 'carrying' our party with Shardra (along with a butt-kicking GM NPC'd Adowyn) in one scenario (including saving the second PP for the party).
This wasn't due to system mastery, but very basic 'common sense' things mentioned by the GM either in a scene setting or simple situational awareness.
I can understand why folks would not want to 'carry' someone. But at the same time, they were trying to contribute, at least?
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You're in a tough spot. I won't mince words here.
From your OP, it sounds like they're a lost cause and them attending game days will only be a negative for the group from this point forward.
Once people are choosing to stay home rather than show up and chance playing with them, severe damage has already been done.
The process of taking these players by the hand, convincing them that what they are currently doing isn't up to par, and showing them step by step how to improve, would take a lot of time. A *lot* of time. And even then the chances of success are minimal. These aren't new players to the gaming world. These are people who have done things a certain way for years, and my experience with the elderly is that they don't learn/change too quickly, if at all, ever. Just linking them to an internet guide and thinking that will help at all will be completely useless.
Even *if* someone did all that, you'd then have to convince others to please come back, I promise they're getting a bit better, they're not all that awful I swear! I wouldn't buy that story and I doubt others will.
Good luck with this spot. It sucks.
Wow! This post is all full of wrong.
I'm just flabberghasted that anyone would say such things just because they are elderly and all that.
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I’m from the same lodge and have invested time into trying to help them out. Meeting with them on different days trying to offer advice and teach them more about the game. After helping fix their characters trying to explain how some of their class abilities work, how BAB increases attack roll and so on many times. They will only play the same two chars a rogue and a healer druid 99% of the time. I’ve seen the druid as a cleric once and the rogue as a sorcerer but then they still only want to play the rogue and druid. Even if in a situation where they have a skill they can use out of combat they won’t. The two of them have said many times “We are here only to fight and roll dice.” They get upset if you attack them or you try to make them do a skill check. Everyone has to make a check to get across into the next area. They just move their minis into the next area and want to move on. As the other player’s making the checks get upset if you just let them get away with it or have them get upset that they have to do it. Even if the GM just says ok roll diplomacy and tell me what you get they don’t want to do it and won’t do it the vast majority of the time. They are the first ones to always run away leaving other players to die. They get upset if someone else brings in a healer because they are stealing her job from her. She won’t heal because she won’t get into the combat the vast majority of the time or will ignore someone telling her they are dying and will just run or keep shooting the bow. Even trying to explain to her that if she was a cleric where she could channel at range to heal and stay safe. It is refused because she wants to be a druid with her bear animal companion. Time after time I’ve tried and a good amount of the time I’m just told off with “They have been playing this game longer then I have been alive and they know what they are doing.” It seems to me the more time that passes the less they want to listen. They are nice but they are driving players and GM’s away. I don’t want to be someone...
The only way to handle it is to sit them down and tell them the way the rest of the players feel. Treat them like adults and with respect.
If they get mad or don't want to hear it, and they truly are a disruptive force, then you may have to disinvite them. If the store has a problem with it, then try to explain it to them. If the store still has a problem with it, move your game day to a new venue.
But I'm saying this under the assumption that this one sided story is completely and exactly as we are being told. As everyone knows there are two sides to every story, and the truth.
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The only way to handle it is to sit them down and tell them the way the rest of the players feel. Treat them like adults and with respect.
If they get mad or don't want to hear it, and they truly are a disruptive force, then you may have to disinvite them. If the store has a problem with it, then try to explain it to them. If the store still has a problem with it, move your game day to a new venue.
But I'm saying this under the assumption that this one sided story is completely and exactly as we are being told. As everyone knows there are two sides to every story, and the truth.
from what I understand BexLee attempted this and the guy brushed him offensively saying they played longer than....
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Telling other players what they can or cannot play is a jerk move.
but asking people to pick another character to avoid having a redundant party role is standard operating procedure. Its a blurry line between the two
Elitism using their age as a reasons to completely dismiss someone is a jerk move.
But makes a legitimate response to someone trying to tell you how to play your character.
Getting upset for being attacked/targeted is a jerk/sophomoric move.
But isn't particularly objective. No ones really happy when they get dropped to negative 10.
Now I understand people have their delusion bubbles and can not see themselves in such a manner, but they are bullies and jerks if what said is true.
Jerks and bullies often do not care what rules you show them.
While this is certainly true, try to see how circular this is. Jerks are jerks for... being jerks. if you're not a jerk the stuff you're doing isn't jerky. If someone else is being jerky to you then they're the jerk.
If they played the game longer(not this version of it) than someone has been alive why would they pay attention when that same person shows thema rule about being a jerk?
They won't, and it won't do any good. Thats what I'm trying to say. But its not because don't be a jerk is a rule its because the rule itself relies on someone elses judgement.
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Stuff
Politely asking is borderline(see telling other people how to play). Telling people that they can not. Jerk move. If you do not take the effort to be polite since you are toeing the line, you are being the jerk. If you make poeople uncomfortable here you are the jerk.
Telling people how to play their character is borderline. Elitism using age is ALWAYS a jerk move. Dismissing someone when you only know their age is rude and belittling. If someone did that to me I would be offended.
Getting upset to where others are uncomfortable is a jerk move after you know better. The poster seemed bothered by it. Now it is his responsibility to explain how that behavior makes him uncomfortable espcially since he donates his time for your fun.
The later parts I was agreeing with you and explaining why.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Messy situation, especially considering the status (in the community) of the offending couple, I have had to deal with similar situations before, and it is not pretty. Of course my situation wasn't nearly as bad, the players wanted to learn and get better, even if he had problems applying himself and helping in the scenario.
In this case and from the posts of various players from that region, it seems there are a number of problems:
- GMs need to apply rules equally and fairly to all players, and should strife to be constistent in their application of the PFS and PF rules over a large number of tables. It is great to fix your mistakes once you become aware of them, but you can'T just softball because of a small selection of players. And obviously I players refuse to make required rolls.... there have to be consequences. Obviously there are is an another side of the story, be if I had been the GM in some of those instances, the couple might have received some unsatisfactory chronicle sheets.
- Players need to be vocal too, it is a nice start that they apparently talked to their GMs/Event Organizers/VO, but sometimes another player just has to ask "Why is your character here ? What does your character contribute to this mission? Your presence is making the scenario harder for the other characters, what is your character willing to offset this, in other words, what risk to you take ?"
Not something nice to say, and I had to say something a bit similar (but severely reduces) to a player as GM already.
Please not that I am basing a lot of that feedback on the comment, that they are always the first to run away, and do not risk their safety in combat.
- The event organizer really should have an honest talk with the two players. Just state the fact , that players expressed the wish not to be at the same table as them, and that some players openly stated, that they stopped attenting public events because of them.
Give them specific examples on what kind of actions are frowned upon, and what is expected of a player character of their level.
- I can see this situation turn very ugly once the other players are feed up with the situation. Ugly tactics like not including them as allies in your buffs (like bardic music), being better at running away, creating difficult terrain in the path of their retreat so the monsters can catch up.... etc. If really don't have to continue listing things that don't touch the "no PVP" rule... but can be covered under "don't be a jerk".
And frankly I would have trouble condemning players, who after the two players failed to contribute again, stand up state their intention to leave and ask the GM for a chronicle sheet that reflects the current status of the scenario.
This issue needs to be adressed sooner than later, and the event organizers, GMs and VO need to have a serious talk with the other players.
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Assuming all the info is accurate and not skewed by personal perceptions, I am disappointed with the local VO corps for not taking action. There is always the chance of getting a player's worst from time to time based on real world issues, but I've never heard of such a blatant disregard for cooperation and fair play. It sounds like adequate attempts to talk to and train the players have been made with no success. It's time to cut them loose for the health of the community
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You're in a tough spot. I won't mince words here.
From your OP, it sounds like they're a lost cause and them attending game days will only be a negative for the group from this point forward.
Once people are choosing to stay home rather than show up and chance playing with them, severe damage has already been done.
The process of taking these players by the hand, convincing them that what they are currently doing isn't up to par, and showing them step by step how to improve, would take a lot of time. A *lot* of time. And even then the chances of success are minimal. These aren't new players to the gaming world. These are people who have done things a certain way for years, and my experience with the elderly is that they don't learn/change too quickly, if at all, ever. Just linking them to an internet guide and thinking that will help at all will be completely useless.
Even *if* someone did all that, you'd then have to convince others to please come back, I promise they're getting a bit better, they're not all that awful I swear! I wouldn't buy that story and I doubt others will.
Good luck with this spot. It sucks.
I disagree.
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Politely asking is borderline(see telling other people how to play). Telling people that they can not. Jerk move. If you do not take the effort to be polite since you are toeing the line, you are being the jerk. If you make poeople uncomfortable here you are the jerk.Stuff
To SOME extent. But interpreting what another person says and does can go wrong on either end of the conversation. Sometimes someone is saying hurtful things that anotehr persor hears. Sometimes someone hears something that COULD be meant by what was said but wasn't intended.. and yes sometimes someone hears something that is completely unrelated to what the other person says.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Not every area has venturecritters.
That is a poor excuse.
No excuse for the vos in that area to shun their responsibility.
And some VOs cover a really big area, when your VO lives 2 hours away, there is relatively little he can do. Ideally the VO should get the chance to see those players as player and as GM several times. But circumstances often prevent that.
I am currently unaware in which VOs area this happened, but I would hesitate to criticize him/her since, even the OP mentioned that this is a tricky situation.
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It sounds like adequate attempts to talk to and train the players have been made with no success. It's time to cut them loose for the health of the community
"Bad gaming is worse than no gaming."
Before the gameday drops to 0 tables you have to act. Bexlee made it sound like diplomacy has been tried and failed.
The organizer or officer should approach them in private before the start of the next game with the last chance ("here's the standards of behavior everyone is expected to abide by, yada yada") and then be ready to wish them best of luck on their future endeavors when they don't follow them.
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BNW, you're giving them the benefit of the doubt here, since we only have other people talking about what they are doing. Even so, I think based on what we've been told, it's reasonable to consider them as acting like jerks in these particular instances
Even if in a situation where they have a skill they can use out of combat they won’t.
They get upset if you attack them or you try to make them do a skill check. Everyone has to make a check to get across into the next area. They just move their minis into the next area and want to move on.
This sounds like refusal to play by the rules, which is a jerk move. If a scenario says a player has to make a climb check, the GM is not running as written if he allows them to ignore it.
Even if the GM just says ok roll diplomacy and tell me what you get they don’t want to do it and won’t do it the vast majority of the time.
This is less of an issue, unless, for instance, the Rogue has put lots of skill points in Diplomacy and Bluff and stuff and is expected to be the Face, but refuses to make Face rolls. See my further comment below.
They get upset if someone else brings in a healer because they are stealing her job from her. She won’t heal because she won’t get into the combat the vast majority of the time or will ignore someone telling her they are dying and will just run or keep shooting the bow.
If you say you're the healer and you will take care of healing responsibilities, and then you refuse to, this is also jerky behavior. When you say, "I've got a cleric" the general assumption is, unless you specifically say otherwise, that this cleric is capable of at least some healing. If you say, "I've got a cleric" and the other people who brought clerics or oracles play something else, then it turns out you've actually got a negative-channeling cleric with no actual curing spells or condition removal spells prepared or in the form of scrolls or wands or potions, and characters die because there's no one to help them, this is a problem. Sometimes people hear that in-combat healing is a bad idea and think they shouldn't bother with it, but there should be at least some provision for after-combat healing and condition removal. If you're not actually healing, then someone else bringing a healer isn't taking away your job. One response to this could be, "I like playing clerics too. Let's share the responsibilities for healing this time and see how it goes."
It is refused because she wants to be a druid with her bear animal companion.
Druids can be reasonably capable healers in a PFS scenario, if they've prepared to do it. Sounds like they aren't.
Time after time I’ve tried and a good amount of the time I’m just told off with “They have been playing this game longer then I have been alive and they know what they are doing.” It seems to me the more time that passes the less they want to listen.
Here's where it really sounds like they're being jerks. If someone tells you that you're stepping on their foot and it hurts and they need to to get off, you don't get to say, "Well, sonny, I've had feet longer than you've been alive! I think I'd know when I was stepping on someone's foot! Stop yelling about how much your toes hurt and let's play the game" while continuing to step on their foot.
Wow! This post is all full of wrong.
I'm just flabberghasted that anyone would say such things just because they are elderly and all that.
Well, be as politically correct as you want, but change does get harder for a LOT of people as they get older. And in this particular case, the statement about playing longer than the person advising them has been alive really gives it away. That's about as clear a statement they won't change as they could make without being explicit. That doesn't make them a lost cause, but getting them to change will be hard.
They may prefer a game with less mechanical resolution. Point them at any 5e stuff going on. There, the DM is encouraged to not roll unless the uncertainty is important enough to test it with a roll.