Kineticist damage?

[Sphynx]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Vital strike can't be used with kinetic blade or kinetic whip.

Oh? Why not?

[Cao Phen]

Sphynx wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

Vital strike can't be used with kinetic blade or kinetic whip.

Oh? Why not?

The clause on it is on the Kinetic Blast ability before the list of blasts stating no Vital Strike with Kinect Blast.

[Imbicatus]

Sphynx wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

Vital strike can't be used with kinetic blade or kinetic whip.

Oh? Why not?

Page 11:

OA wrote:

The kineticist is never considered to be wielding or gripping the kinetic blast (regardless of effects from form infusions; see Infusion on page 12), and she can’t use Vital Strike feats with kinetic blasts.

[Sphynx]

Ah, in the most obvious place. Yeah, I tend to overlook those places. :P Thanks.

[Rhedyn]

Sphynx wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

You still get your normal infusion for of levels.

lv 7 doesn't give a normal infusion. You only gain something if you pick your same element.

True that, didn't notice there were 3 instead of 2 talents listed at that level. I'd postpone the Telekinetic Maneuvers and take Self-TK at 8th level so you can pick up the infusion (whip) at 7th. I'd lose the Aether Puppet entirely and pick up TK-Maneuvers at 12th. Either that or pick it up at 20th level.

I just dropped mobile blast, to my experience, it wasn't that useful.

Aether puppet is a god-tier power. It becomes much better at 12 and doesn't compete with flight at 10. Combine it with invisibility to solo armies and dungeons.

[Sphynx]

Rhedyn wrote:

Aether puppet is a god-tier power. It becomes much better at 12 and doesn't compete with flight at 10. Combine it with invisibility to solo armies and dungeons.

Interesting... I find the Move Action a hinderance as this means I'm standing still without gathering power. But... I can see how it could be used effectively. Gonna have to re-evaluate this one.

[shroudb]

Mobile blast is awesome as a debuffs delivering mechanic.

I has a blast (pun!) With a metal mobile magnetic blast applying that sweet +4 bonus to the party attacks, while the enemy had -4 on it's save vs it due to it being metallic itself.

Also, with bowling, you literally make a bowling ball.

Bowling mobile+telek maneuver is a no cost 2 maneuvers/round.

On the form infusions:
Impale:
Is it me or the way it is worded you can actually start it at an opponent and extend it in a direction of your choice?
Something like:
(K is you, o is opponents, * is 5x5, -is impale)

*-o--o-*
********
********
**k*****

Nvm, it's in the magic section of core:
Line spells start from you :/

[Wilson Abrams]

Chess Pwn wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

You still get your normal infusion for of levels.

lv 7 doesn't give a normal infusion. You only gain something if you pick your same element.

I know I've said this a number of times before, but I find this design choice seriously questionable, it's like holding class features hostage.

I think most elements are getting super, super cool stuff when they reach the level 3 Wild Talents, but we don't even get to pick one of those Infusions until level 9! Unless, of course, you decide to take a massive hit to your versatility for the next 8 levels. Outside of Fire, or a hyper-melee-focus build on Earth, how could this ever be worth it?

[Rhedyn]

Wilson Abrams wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

Rhedyn wrote:

You still get your normal infusion for of levels.

lv 7 doesn't give a normal infusion. You only gain something if you pick your same element.

I know I've said this a number of times before, but I find this design choice seriously questionable, it's like holding class features hostage.

I think most elements are getting super, super cool stuff when they reach the level 3 Wild Talents, but we don't even get to pick one of those Infusions until level 9! Unless, of course, you decide to take a massive hit to your versatility for the next 8 levels. Outside of Fire, or a hyper-melee-focus build on Earth, how could this ever be worth it?

I am more perturbed by the increase complexity for little conceptual gain. It would be much simpler to gain an infusion every odd level instead of every odd level except 7 and 15 or any level above 19.

[Ryzoken]

Wilson Abrams wrote:

I know I've said this a number of times before, but I find this design choice seriously questionable, it's like holding class features hostage.

Well, it does make a kind of sense in that there needs to be a strong incentive to expand your initial element. Expanding to any other element opens a plethora of options, so to even begin to match that versatility, something akin to an extra talent makes a great degree of sense. I recognize that we're already paying for improved element access with that painful -2 to talent level access and a feat tax if we want the defense of that element, but these restrictions aren't enough on their own, something else was needed.

That said, the way talent levels are lined up with regard to leveling is... clunky and annoying. If the access to talents were 2*(talentLevel)-1 instead of 2*(talentLevel), things would snap together significantly better than they do currently. You'd get access to infusions at appropriate times, making all those level 3 talents actually accessible instead of being gated behind your choice of 3 levels or expanded element, and there'd be no functional change to utility talent acquisition since we get those on even levels.

[shroudb]

Ryzoken wrote:

Wilson Abrams wrote:

I know I've said this a number of times before, but I find this design choice seriously questionable, it's like holding class features hostage.

Well, it does make a kind of sense in that there needs to be a strong incentive to expand your initial element. Expanding to any other element opens a plethora of options, so to even begin to match that versatility, something akin to an extra talent makes a great degree of sense. I recognize that we're already paying for improved element access with that painful -2 to talent level access and a feat tax if we want the defense of that element, but these restrictions aren't enough on their own, something else was needed.

That said, the way talent levels are lined up with regard to leveling is... clunky and annoying. If the access to talents were 2*(talentLevel)-1 instead of 2*(talentLevel), things would snap together significantly better than they do currently. You'd get access to infusions at appropriate times, making all those level 3 talents actually accessible instead of being gated behind your choice of 3 levels or expanded element, and there'd be no functional change to utility talent acquisition since we get those on even levels.

the problem is the "feels".

instead of feeling rewarded for sticking to your elements, you are left feeling cheated if you don't.

and that's a world of differance.

edit:
on that note:

Quote:

At 5th, 11th, and 17th levels, a kineticist can replace one of her infusions with another infusion of the same effective spell level or lower. She can't replace an infusion that she used to qualify for another of her wild talents.

seems t be missing the language about the -2spell level for not your main element.

so it might allow a little bit leaway to actually pick at least the 3th/5th level infusion of your second element at lvl11

[Rynjin]

Ryzoken wrote:

Wilson Abrams wrote:

I know I've said this a number of times before, but I find this design choice seriously questionable, it's like holding class features hostage.

Well, it does make a kind of sense in that there needs to be a strong incentive to expand your initial element. Expanding to any other element opens a plethora of options, so to even begin to match that versatility, something akin to an extra talent makes a great degree of sense. I recognize that we're already paying for improved element access with that painful -2 to talent level access and a feat tax if we want the defense of that element, but these restrictions aren't enough on their own, something else was needed.

So what you do is make single element a more inherently attractive option rather than making it strictly inferior and giving it an extra Talent it can often only spend on stuff it doesn't really want to take because there's such a tiny selection for many elements or sub-elements.

As-is it gives a slight punishment to multi-element users, but doesn't incentivize you very much to stick with one anyway.

[Ryzoken]

shroudb wrote:

Quote:

At 5th, 11th, and 17th levels, a kineticist can replace one of her infusions with another infusion of the same effective spell level or lower. She can't replace an infusion that she used to qualify for another of her wild talents.

seems to be missing the language about the -2spell level for not your main element.

so it might allow a little bit leeway to actually pick at least the 3th/5th level infusion of your second element at lvl11

This has been clarified by the design team in one of the kineticist threads. The short reasoning is: the replacement mechanic in no way invalidates or removes any restrictions placed on talent acquisition.

As far as the expanded element talent thing: I'm not saying it's perfect. I am saying I can sort of see what they were going for. As far as the way we react to it, viewing it as a benefit for specialization or a penalty for expanding, that's entirely up to us. We control how we feel, not other people. Which is a fact that is seemly lost on people in general, given the amount of outrage over various issues on a daily basis, but I digress. Point is: mechanically, we get +Talent for going single element or we get +options going multi element. Which is preferable is entirely up to the individual. I, for example, have elected mono element for my Aether kineticist so I can get Foe Throw at 7, opening up 9 and 11 for Snake and Kinetic Whip.

Side note: if I were able to select infusions as 2*talentLevel-1, I'd have taken Foe Throw at 5, Kinetic Whip at 7, Snake at 9 and Disintegrating Infusion at 11 instead of adding two levels to each of those entries. This would've put Disintegrating Infusion right at the time when wizards get actual Disintegrate, instead of an entire spell level behind (a character level behind when sorcerers and arcanists get the same spell.) Similar effects, similar timeline.

[shroudb]

Ryzoken wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Quote:

At 5th, 11th, and 17th levels, a kineticist can replace one of her infusions with another infusion of the same effective spell level or lower. She can't replace an infusion that she used to qualify for another of her wild talents.

seems to be missing the language about the -2spell level for not your main element.

so it might allow a little bit leeway to actually pick at least the 3th/5th level infusion of your second element at lvl11

This has been clarified by the design team in one of the kineticist threads. The short reasoning is: the replacement mechanic in no way invalidates or removes any restrictions placed on talent acquisition.

As far as the expanded element talent thing: I'm not saying it's perfect. I am saying I can sort of see what they were going for. As far as the way we react to it, viewing it as a benefit for specialization or a penalty for expanding, that's entirely up to us. We control how we feel, not other people. Which is a fact that is seemly lost on people in general, given the amount of outrage over various issues on a daily basis, but I digress. Point is: mechanically, we get +Talent for going single element or we get +options going multi element. Which is preferable is entirely up to the individual. I, for example, have elected mono element for my Aether kineticist so I can get Foe Throw at 7, opening up 9 and 11 for Snake and Kinetic Whip.

Side note: if I were able to select infusions as 2*talentLevel-1, I'd have taken Foe Throw at 5, Kinetic Whip at 7, Snake at 9 and Disintegrating Infusion at 11 instead of adding two levels to each of those entries. This would've put Disintegrating Infusion right at the time when wizards get actual Disintegrate, instead of an entire spell level behind (a character level behind when sorcerers and arcanists get the same spell.) Similar effects, similar timeline.

the human perception isn't that hard:

if someone says to you:
your paycheck is 10$/day
and then proceed and say
on friday, you don't get paid unless you work double time

then ofc you feel cheated.

similary, now it is:
every 2nd level you get a talent
on the 7th lvl you don't get a talent if you don't stick to a single element.

the serious problem here is that most nice midlvl (6-10) infusions are lvl3.
if you change your element, you suddenly get them at lvl9, with no way to prevent that since extra infusion feat won't let you, which is the END of mid level, and already crossing into the domain of the lvl5 infusions which is the 2nd set of powerful infusions, and kinda the end game ones.

so end result:
if you switch element, your whole midgame is 100% screwed (infusion wise)

edit:
all would be fine if the "extra infusion feat" was changed to:
you count as 4lvls lower EXCEPT for your main element. Which seriously, i don't see why they did that. Either way, aquiring infusions at their level means that you can't use them at-will due to burn, so you will be using either way only 1 infusion for your level, so the only thing this restriction (for your main element) does is restricting your options, NOT your power level

[Ryzoken]

shroudb wrote:

the human perception isn't that hard:

if someone says to you:
your paycheck is 10$/day
and...

False equivocation.

A more accurate equivalence would be: You're scheduled to work on the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 9th, and 11th. If you come in on the 7th, we'll pay you extra.
At no point does the class say "you get an infusion every odd level unless you expanded element into a different element, then we're taking your 7th level infusion away" it instead says you get talents at 1, 2, and every two levels thereafter and infusions at levels 1, 3, 5, 9, etc. The inference that you're gaining an infusion every odd level is just that: an inference.

Gaining infusions at level works fine, it just means you'll actually take burn (maybe) instead of mitigating it entirely with infusion specialization.

We're lucky the Extra Talent feat exists at all, given statements by the devs regarding similar Extra X feats. That said, yes, the -4 level is painful.

[shroudb]

Ryzoken wrote:

shroudb wrote:

the human perception isn't that hard:

if someone says to you:
your paycheck is 10$/day
and...

False equivocation.

A more accurate equivalence would be: You're scheduled to work on the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 9th, and 11th. If you come in on the 7th, we'll pay you extra.
At no point does the class say "you get an infusion every odd level unless you expanded element into a different element, then we're taking your 7th level infusion away" it instead says you get talents at 1, 2, and every two levels thereafter and infusions at levels 1, 3, 5, 9, etc. The inference that you're gaining an infusion every odd level is just that: an inference.

Gaining infusions at level works fine, it just means you'll actually take burn (maybe) instead of mitigating it entirely with infusion specialization.

We're lucky the Extra Talent feat exists at all, given statements by the devs regarding similar Extra X feats. That said, yes, the -4 level is painful.

not really.

i mean every single class with "powers" (ki powers, rage powers, rogue talents, etc) gets them every 2nd lvl.

kineticists, completly arbitary, "skip" lvl 7, and they get the power "back" if they stick to their element.

in whatever way you disquise it, it's the same.

they LOSE a talent (actually get a cantrip, hurray) if they change elements.

[Rynjin]

Speaking of, are there any good elements to Expand into when starting with Earth, or is it not worth it? Earth is already one of the solid ones (no pun intended).

[Ryzoken]

shroudb wrote:

not really.

i mean every single class with "powers" (ki powers, rage powers, rogue talents, etc) gets them every 2nd lvl.

kineticists, completly arbitary, "skip" lvl 7, and they get the power "back" if they stick to their element.

in whatever way you disquise it, it's the same.

they LOSE a talent (actually get a cantrip, hurray) if they change elements.

This is where my point regarding perception lies. You are dead set to frame things negatively, referring to loss of a talent for expanding to other elements. I am choosing to frame things positively, highlighting the gain of a talent for sticking with your base element. In theory, either observation is valid, but framing things negatively results in undesirable negative emotional responses and rhetoric.

Ultimately, this is the point where I cease arguing about this topic.

WRT Earth's Expanded Element options: I'd say Air, for flight, but you get it at 10 and it is pretty much diametrically opposed thematically. Aether could be neat for TK Invis in theory, letting you burrow underground, vanish, then resurface invisibly somewhere. The composite blast for Aether is pretty bad though. Fire gets you Eruption for area nukes and an energy blast, which you might care about. Water can give you its awesome shield ability with Expanded Defense, further amplifying your defenses. I know a guy who built a tanky earth kineticist, but I think he went full Earth instead of splitting off into Water.

[Chess Pwn]

how's this for perspective. At the level you'll normally be able to pick a lv3 infusion according to the normal class feature list, you'll be able to pick lv4 infusions too.

[shroudb]

Rynjin wrote:

Speaking of, are there any good elements to Expand into when starting with Earth, or is it not worth it? Earth is already one of the solid ones (no pun intended).

i wouldn't.

earth(expanded) offers just SO much.
the metal composite is the only blast that feeds from itself through magnetising
and all 3 lvl3 infusions are pretty much solid (no pun either). i mean you either bypass dr, or you give a huge buff to the party+you with that +4 to hit, or even a solid aoe option in impale.
lvl3 also has flurry of blasts, which couples well with some of earth's debuffs
so you are really tight on those infusions (if you don't want to wait till 11)

for a more support-y type, you could go with water:
(grease with no cost isn't bad at lvl7, the dc will start to fall off very soon though)
it's mud composite isn't bad
healer is a solid (imo) talent that you can pick instantly
later on it's super easy to inflict -4 to dex for all around you ( mean by that level you are dropping the temp by -55F, so even if it is hot day with 95F, you are STILL freezing everyone without a save

aether isn't THAT bad either, it offers the second best (always imo) defence, that synergizes amazingly with your own.
you lack any sort of meaningful composite
but you can become amazingly good scout later on with invis, glide, tremorsense, the tk senses, ranged disarms, ranged steals (pop from underground, steal something, pop again inside the earth) and etc
I would personally build such a thing like a maneuver specialist

but for me, for a campaign that is aiming for high level completion, i would go like: earth->earth->aether.
it offers good enough things at all level ranges.

[Vrog Skyreaver]

Rynjin wrote:

Speaking of, are there any good elements to Expand into when starting with Earth, or is it not worth it? Earth is already one of the solid ones (no pun intended).

Water is good; healing plus slipstream plus eventual 20% mischance to all attacks doesn't suck.

[Wilson Abrams]

Ryzoken wrote:

shroudb wrote:

the human perception isn't that hard:

if someone says to you:
your paycheck is 10$/day
and...

False equivocation.

A more accurate equivalence would be: You're scheduled to work on the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 9th, and 11th. If you come in on the 7th, we'll pay you extra.

But that wouldn't be getting paid extra, unless you use the expanded option to take an extra utility talent. Of course, that too would be giving up a feature that is on a standard progression for literally every level except 7 and 15.

[LuniasM]

Rynjin wrote:

Speaking of, are there any good elements to Expand into when starting with Earth, or is it not worth it? Earth is already one of the solid ones (no pun intended).

I suppose it depends on what your build is - for melee expanding into Water is a good choice since you get a composite blast, access to a great elemental defense, Ice Path, and Shimmering Mirage. It's also a good choice for a control build used in conjunction with Deadly Earth and Entangling Infusion, giving you some defense as well as offensive might. If you're looking at damage then Fire is the obvious choice, giving you Eruption for AoEs and Fire's Fury for bonus damage on your composite blasts. Firesight + Smoke Storm can help you attack without fear of retaliation too.

[Rynjin]

I'm thinking ranged. I've played too many melee characters so I'm finally biting the bullet and playing ranged martials for a while.

I'd be 7th level, is the thing, and unsure how likely it will be that I survive to a higher level (This is for Slumbering Tsar).

[Hargert]

Some of the issue on perception is that listed levels that they are broken into you can not get them at. If you read a power is 4th level and you think you should be able to pick it up at 8th. The way things break down having to wait until 9th to grab a power has a bad feel to it. I understand people's complaints about that kind of thing. The class has great promise and from the play test it is obvious that people love the concept. I for one think it got released too early and could have used some more time to get the rough edges smoothed out.

[Chess Pwn]

meh, the rough edges are smoothed out. It just not the exact match for the class each person wanted. Look at the unchained Monk. Everyone was upset that it didn't have good will save and low ki pool. But the class on it's own as a beatstick works really well. What we were given just doesn't match our view of it.

[Kindaul]

I think when you deny class abilities that are listed as being available at 7th until they hit 9th lvl when they now have a new set of available abilities and only the option of choosing one is absolutely terrible class design. Just think if a sorcerer was told that at lvl 6 instead of getting 3rd lvl spells he gets one of his mediocre bloodline abilities and now must wait until lvl 8 for 3rd lvl spells, and can only pick 1 new spell at lvl 8. It's the same thing, so why is the kineticist the only one boned in this regard? Not to mention lack of energy composites outside fire and numerous other issues that you can only hope are oversights and not intentional pointless restrictions. This class has much more to worry about besides it's very apparent rough edges. But hopefully over time as more material is released this class gets the love it needs. Since it has in itself it's very own mechanics, you really can't expect it to be at the same lvl as all the other classes who get to draw from a very large pool of source material to power up.

[Hargert]

No if the rough edges were beaten out the powers levels would line up when you could get them. You would not have so many rules to cover edge cases or stop abuses. You would not have choices that leave you completely nullified bY a single spell. I am sure with time as aditional options come online it will improve and I still hope they will modify the class in future printings or provide feat choices that actually help the class.

[Ryzoken]

Hargert wrote:

I still hope they will modify the class in future printings or provide feat choices that actually help the class.

There's always Toughness! Or Weapon Focus! Lol.

[Imbicatus]

Hargert wrote:

You would not have choices that leave you completely nullified by a single spell.

There are no choices that leave you nullified by a single spell. Protection from energy does not provide enough resistance that you can't punch through it, and you do not need to actually do damage to apply rider effects, some of which will lower the resistance provided or dispel it entirely. Resistance is not problem. Immunity is when the target is not an elemental subtype.

[shroudb]

fire SHOULD have a way to punch through immunity for non-elementals (at least for outsiders).

in general straight up immunities should be completly removed from the game, put them as exceptionally high resistances (40+) but not outright imunity, especially if there isn't a way to punch through.

[Hargert]

shroudb wrote:

fire SHOULD have a way to punch through immunity for non-elementals (at least for outsiders).

in general straight up immunities should be completly removed from the game, put them as exceptionally high resistances (40+) but not outright imunity, especially if there isn't a way to punch through.

If a class is forced to only have one tool there should be a way to make it work or an option to get around it either via item, feat or power. It should not just be for fire but any of the energy types. If you could get additional types earlier you could leave it. Sadly the more specialized a class is the better you have to have built in ways to be effective and not have huge portions of what you can do be countered so easily.

[HFTyrone]

I'm not sure how the kineticist managed to make it out of the playtest in such a sad state. The burn mechanic seems to contradict itself at every turn. Burn tells you it makes you a little stronger, but also makes you much weaker, there are several class abilities that revolve around mitigating burn, and several class abilities that don't activate without higher burn.

At every point up until level 11 or 16 the kineticist has to make the decision on whether they want to be useful, or not consume burn. They don't get to do both until very high level, and even at level 16 they're extremely underwhelming.

They're a blaster that for at least half of its lifespan can't hope to outdamage an NPC class with a bow, with terribly unimpressive and burn-intensive AoE. A lot of their infusions are either bad, expensive, or not available until much higher levels; sometimes it's a combination of the three. The nonlethal damage is nothing to sneeze at either, taking 10 points of NL every single time you take burn at level 10 is a heavy price to pay on a class with a D8 hit die. You can help offset this a bit by pumping constitution and taking toughness, but the former still requires you not to utilize your maximum potential for fear of killing yourself, and the latter is more because the kineticist has a useful feat selection more sparse than said NPC classes.

Another thing people like to bring up is their ability to fly and utilize their high range to avoid enemies, but I feel like this ability is less of a cool feature and more of an absolute necessity since utilizing your maximum burn potential involves taking what is likely the vast majority of your health in semi-permanent nonlethal damage; despite being very capable of having a constitution score of 28 at level 10, poor rolls on your hit die means you can still possibly knock yourself unconscious by using your own class features. On top of that you can't gather power while maintaining flight, so unless you're a fan of suddenly falling unconscious and plummeting 480 feet to the earth you're going to be doing plink damage the entire time while gutting every ounce of your already poor utility since you need to spend your free burn points on range.

I don't know what paizo has against at-will abilities, but I also find it strange that someone felt the weakest class in the book (and one could argue, one of the weakest first-party classes in the game) is the one that has to punch itself in the face to do anything when in the same book they introduce YET ANOTHER disgustingly overpowered Tier 1 caster.

[TheDailyLunatic]

HFTyrone wrote:

Snip

Nitpick: you can gather power while flying. Greater Flame Jet & Self Telekinesis both allow you to hover without any action.

[TheDailyLunatic]

I'm generally in agreement with others on this thread that the class is relatively under-powered and suffers some pretty annoying smacks with the nerf bat. That said, I also think this class is easily serviceable with a bit of creativity. I for one plan on mutilating the s*** out of my party with one of these this coming Sunday...

One change that would be very welcome is cutting the wait for Infusions. I understand not giving me 2nd spell level equivalents at 3rd level... but why in the Nine Hells do I have to wait until 5th? Better to have 1/2 level + 1 utility talents on evens and 1/2 level infusions on odds. Hell... why are utility talents ahead in the game anyway when infusions are central to the characters? Expanded element levels should give infusions as normal, with a bonus infusion for expanding primary.

In other words... none of the following should be interpreted as me thinking that the kineticist doesn't need to be seriously fixed upwards.

Here are my unfiltered thoughts on the telekineticist since a lot of folks were talking smack about it (with varying degrees of reason):

I did relatively optimized builds for a tel + a pyro finding that they were actually doing comparable DPR at L11. The pyro edges to the fore, especially considering its energy composite.

The tel's maximized simple blast is going to deal about 77% of other foci's composite blast damage for the same energy expenditure. However, the tel can boost damage because they have less forms with saves (so they can boost CON over DEX more) and their Wild Defense ability is better (you're trading HP for regenerating HP 2 to 1, but it also can negate concentration checks, poisons, debuffs etc) so they can afford to put more into Elemental Overflow.

Also... the Telekineticist practically never has to worry about energy resistance. Seriously now... Who the hell has Force resist???

Aether Blast sucks. Really bad. I can't think of a situation where I'd ever want it ever. There are a million better things that 2 burn gives you than 1/2 level to damage.

Despite the save for 1/4, Disintegration is really good. Probably on par with Blue Flame, with the added benefit of ignoring energy resistance and preventing heal/breath-of-life/various-escapes. Combine with Foe Throw or Wall or Kinetic Blade/Whip or Mobile Blast to really spread the fun. It kills me that you have to wait for 13 for that crap. It really should be a L11 ability.

The tel shines on special abilities, though.

Free unlimited:
* Telekinetic maneuvers AKA MFING RANGED GRAPPLE (including STEAL! grappling can wreck a caster's round... stealing a bonded item can wreck their life. In a surprise round you can steal the beefy barb's +3 Greatsword. BTW: I rule in my games that telekinesis can damage when maintaining)
* Invisibility
* Flying
* SUFFOCATION
* MOVING TEN THOUSAND POUND ROCKS/WAGONS/BOATS/X-WINGS
* Force barriers (I can't wait until someone tries to charge my tel and smacks face-first into an invisible wall)

Mostly free and unlimited:
* Animate object
* Healing
* Telekinetic Sphere / 100% cover from force walls (the former especially can be used to Gather Power massively and safely for huge take-downs)
* Wall of Force
* 30ft Uncanny Dodge + Auto-succeed surprise rounds
* SPELL TURNING!!!

The telekineticist loses out on a lot of raw damage and AOE... but they have a VERY impressive bag of tricks if you're creative. And you should be. Speaking as a GM, I've seen parties rock insane encounters with ingenuity more often than with DPR.

[TheDailyLunatic]

I did a DPR analysis for level 11 & level 6.

Link:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dj94dBJo2BLEtJvDPIDehq1FWVJ2xNSdP5c y0qTcb0k/edit?usp=sharing

Some notes:

The kineticist does pretty much average DPR. Telekineticist and energy builds consistently lag about 25% behind in DPR. That's assuming average CR AC of 25: obviously much higher AC favors energy and much lower favors physical (in this case the point where energy is better is AC30+)

Since pyros are energy-based, they also lag behind, but their AOE abilities which ignore AC but focus on reflex probably more than make up for it.

Force damage deals about half DPR until you get disintegrate at level 13, when it deals more but fortitude saves come into play (which probably edges out the DPR boost from full CON to damage). That's VERY rough, but it may make the most sense when you're fighting something with high AC + resistances. Also the disintegration effect must be worth something. It's still about 40% more damage than a magic missile, for what that's worth.

Aetheric boost blows hardcore. It's basically half level to damage across the board, which doesn't nearly compete with empower. An extra d6 per die rather than +1 per die would still be less of a boost, but at least it would put it on a similar level.

At level 15, a telekineticist should probably take an expanded element which offers a physical composite. Then again, at that level they're flinging free disintegrates.

[Weirdo]

Ryzoken wrote:

This is where my point regarding perception lies. You are dead set to frame things negatively, referring to loss of a talent for expanding to other elements. I am choosing to frame things positively, highlighting the gain of a talent for sticking with your base element. In theory, either observation is valid, but framing things negatively results in undesirable negative emotional responses and rhetoric.

The thing is, expectations going into the class create this negative framing.

First, most abilities that have a regular progression don't skip levels, barring an archetype. And there are a lot of "class talent" features with this progression. You get rogue and slayer talents, ninja and mesmerist tricks, barbarian rage powers, witch hexes, alchemist discoveries, oracle revelations, and arcanist exploits every 2 levels, and paladin mercies, magus arcana, and skald rage powers every 3. Someone familiar with pathfinder class design who looks at the kineticist likely expects this pattern to continue with the kineticist's infusions - and may even mis-read it as a continued pattern as Rhedyn and I both did. Discovering that the infusion doesn't follow the usual pattern feels like a loss.

Second, looking at the infusions you can take it is natural to calculate out "I get access to 1st level infusions at level 1, 2nd level at level 5, 3rd level at level 7, 4th at level 9..." and so when you see all the cool level 3 infusions you start anticipating your level 7 selection - only to remember/discover that you don't get a level 7 selection unless you take a single element. Again, that makes it feel like a loss rather than something you can gain.

And what really bugs me about it is that it would be very easy to give everyone a level 7 (and 15) infusion, and then give the single-element kineticists an additional infusion or talent. The class would not be overpowered by having one or two extra options for modifying its blast, and there are enough cool 3rd level infusions that a second one is still a nice bonus for the specialist even if those who branch out with their elements get one too.

[Rynjin]

Well the main issue there is if you get too many talents, there's not enough you're able to take...which is a big danger with this class. The Infusion selection is VERY limited. There's like two of any given level you can take, at least up to 7th (where my Geokineticist is at).

[Azten]

Geo got the short end of the skin for Infusions from what I can see. Makes for an awesome DR build though.

[Imbicatus]

Azten wrote:

Geo got the short end of the skin for Infusions from what I can see. Makes for an awesome DR build though.

Impale and Fragmentation are both decent, not to mention Magnetic.

[Weirdo]

Rynjin wrote:

Well the main issue there is if you get too many talents, there's not enough you're able to take...which is a big danger with this class. The Infusion selection is VERY limited. There's like two of any given level you can take, at least up to 7th (where my Geokineticist is at).

Hopefully this will be fixed as future books come out with more talents.

And I don't think that one extra talent at level 7 (and 15, if you get that far) will cause you to run out - there are several good universal 3rd level infusions, on top of whatever you get from your actual element.

[Rynjin]

Oh, Earth definitely gets very GOOD Infusions, don't get me wrong. only one combat so far, but Entangling Infusion is quite nice, and Magnetic would have been had my ally waited to go after me (we use block Initiative, so first to post wins).

It's more a matter of quantity than quality. Most high level Geokineticists will look very similar build-wise, with the main differentiation being whether they take Kinetic Blade/Fist or not.

And their Utility talents are kind of hit or miss. Tremorsense especially is meh...and it's basically the only choice you have at 6th level unless you really want a boost to Knowledge: Dungeoneering for some reason (the Climb boost is pointless since you're pretty much forced to get a Climb speed as well).

[Legio_MCMLXXXVII]

So, I think I figured out just how this is supposed to work a couple days ago. At least as long as you can retrain.

At first or third level, you're stuck picking a crappy Infusion, in the case of a TK, probably pushing infusion. So, at sixth level, when you unlock third level wild talents, you pick up Invisibility, because you'd be an idiot not to, and then retrain pushing Infusion into whatever third level Infusion you want to have. For just 300 gold and either 5 prestige in PFS, or five-ten days of downtime in a regular game, you now have a decently powerful Infusion one level early. And, you can pick up touchsight at level seven. You'll probably repeat this at level twelve to grab disintegrate at the same time you grab Suffocate.

I actually think this is how it's supposed to work, which seems like bad design, even though it presents some interesting opportunities.

[CalethosVB]

Think of Infusions and Utility Wild Talents like Sorcerer spells. Sure, you can retrain that 1st level Talent, but only into another 1st level Talent. Besides:

Retraining wrote:

Retraining Rules, scroll down to Class Feature

Retraining a class feature means you lose the old class feature and gain a new one that you could otherwise qualify for at that point in your level advancement. For example, if you want to retrain your paladin's fatigued mercy (which she gained at 3rd level), you can replace it only with another mercy from the 3rd-level list. If at 6th level you learned the sickened mercy (which is on the 3rd-level list), you may replace it with a mercy from the 3rd- or 6th-level list (because you are replacing a 6th-level mercy slot which you spent on a 3rd-level mercy).

[Insain Dragoon]

HFTyrone wrote:

They're a blaster that for at least half of its lifespan can't hope to outdamage an NPC class with a bow,

I'm tired of seeing this b+&*$!++ thrown around.

RIGHT IN THIS VERY THREAD IT WAS SHOWN THAT A KINETICIST CAN OUT DPR A BARD ARCHER

[Azten]

And then the dreaded SR/Resistance/Immunity struck >.>

Kidding! Kinda...

[Insain Dragoon]

Azten wrote:

And then the dreaded SR/Resistance/Immunity struck >.>

Kidding! Kinda...

Well SR is absolutely an unnecessary wall blocking Kineticists. Feedback almost universally agreed it was a bad idea, it makes no sense according to the lore, and it unnecessarily further pushes energy behind physical blasts.

[Weirdo]

Rynjin wrote:

It's more a matter of quantity than quality. Most high level Geokineticists will look very similar build-wise, with the main differentiation being whether they take Kinetic Blade/Fist or not.

Exactly, which is where adding more talents will improve things - right now there are a few fairly good kineticist builds, but with more talents and a wider range of composites you'll see more variety in competent builds.

[Pendragon898]

This thread i all wrong. Underpowered? I can tank with my kineticist, both taking damage and dealing it. At level 6 my aether kineticist was doing 3d6+15 without empowering. Empowered it was around 40 damage each attack and with blasts being ranged i didnt need a move action so still no burn.

[PossibleCabbage]

It's not strictly necessary to argue with people from September 2015 at this point.

Suffice to say the Kineticist is in an okay place. It has its fans (myself included) and is a good class from like 70-90% optimization, and a comparatively weak class outside that range but I think that's a good spot to be in, specifically for people who enjoy optimizing but don't want to accidentally break the game.