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- 11 classes in the Core Rulebook
(Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard)
- 7 classes in the APG
(Alchemist, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Oracle, Summoner, Witch, Antipaladin)
- 1 class in UM
(Magus)
- 3 classes in UC
(Gunslinger, Ninja, Samurai)
- 10 classes in the ACG
(Arcanist, Bloodrager, Brawler, Hunter, Investigator, Shaman, Skald, Slayer, Swashbuckler, Warpriest)
- 6 classes in OA
(Kineticist, Medium, Mesmerist, Occultist, Psychic, Spiritualist)
- 1 class in Ultimate Intrigue
(Viligante)
Point being that after the viligante, we'll be at 39 classes. That's a lot of options, WITHOUT counting the archetypes and the Unchained versions. If you can't find your niche with 39 classes, there's a little problem :P
I'm not talking about bloating here. I just don't think that the Pathfinder system will need more classes after the viligante. I mean... what else can be turned into a class? Pretty sure that if it would be a class, it could be turned into an archetype or a prestige class instead. Sure, there are many hybrid classes that could be made, but... even then, the current hybrid classes fill up most of the roles a player could be, and that's without checking the archetypes that USE other class features to change completely the base classes.
Ok, fine, if there's only ONE more class to be added... and to make it 40, a nice round number, I could see an Engineer/Tinkerer/Artificer class. Basically, there's a room for a class that build gadgets that mimic spells, as well as large mech-like armors, vehicles and other steampunk-like contraptions.
BTW, I'm not including 3rd-party classes, but you get my point about official 1st-party classes, right?
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Eh, some of the classes in the ACG, the ninja and the samurai should only count for 1/2 because they rip so many mechanics from other classes.
I see your point, though.
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There is still some design space for a few more classes.
Some decent concepts:
1. A proper dedicated combat Shapeshifter class(or 3) - proper flexible shapeshifting is so powerful that it would be hard to bolt on to an existing class. This is a gaping hole in the current lineup of classes, since the only decent shape shifter, the druid, comes with a rather large pile of role playing and mechanical baggage as well as not being very customizable in how it does wildshape - it's just pick an animal and go.
2. Gageteer, like you mentioned, or even another set of classes with their own "casting" system like the occult classes - I could see a 4th, 6th and 9th level "caster" class coming out of each of these, plus a class that augments itself physically with mechanical upgrades instead of "casting" gadgets.
3. Dedicated Theruge Base class - can't see the possibility of easily bolting a second spell list onto a current class
4. Shadowdancer Base Class - too much needs to get swapped out to make a good archetype
In fact, quite a few of the prestige classes could be turned into base classes(aside from the ones that have already been given that treatment).
They still have enough material for new books. The above is like what, 3 books worth of classes at least?
I'd also like to see a more focused arcane Archer like class as well, though that could probably just work as a magus archtype or the like.
I'd be interested in seeing a 4th level caster version of a alchemist, and a 9th level version of a alchemist... i've had some ideas in my head for it.
One character concept a friend of mine has always had trouble accurately making is a form of puppet master character, who would have most of his abilities originate from his puppets.
There is already a Magus archetype for the arcane archer in Ultimate Combat.
a g+~ d*#n 1/2 "Caster" alchemist and a full "caster" alchemist
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Yeah - we don't need more classes. We need more flexible mechanics that will allow for more flexible game-play without needing to home-brew everything.
The Vigilante was a good example of an unnecessary "class" - which really was like 4 archetypes from other classes cobbled together. As an alternate rules set, it would have worked much better, allowing that style of character to be developed from existing classes and archetypes.
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Still have zero support for my "water balloon throwing badass" concept.
Still have zero support for my "water balloon throwing badass" concept.
It's called a Hydrokineticist :P
Mecha pilot, d12 hit points so they don't get smeared across the rocks if they need to get out to take a piss, shower or fart :-)
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39 and we'll probably still see more and more. I really think Paizo need to stop looking at new classes and focus on something else for a while.
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The only classes I want to see now are Ultimate Prestige, where they take prestige classes and make them base classes. So we can build Arcane Tricksters, Theurges, Dragon Disciples, Lorenasters, Shadowdancers, and tons of others.
Have you checked out the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press? The book has 14 out of 14 5-star reviews :)
It actually has a Theurge base class. And ... at least two of the other classes you mentioned are in their final playtests right now ... :)
We also don't have a "divine barbarian" that would do Rage Prophet like Bloodrager does Dragon Disciple. There's a lot of room for more classes. The only thing that has to be kept it mind, and I think sort of wasn't for the new Vigilante, is that classes need roles that are distinct from other classes, or they need to go about those roles in mechanically interesting ways that haven't been done before. Once you get two classes that have the same niche and do it in pretty much the same way, that's when the bloat starts getting real real quick.
The only classes I want to see now are Ultimate Prestige, where they take prestige classes and make them base classes. So we can build Arcane Tricksters, Theurges, Dragon Disciples, Lorenasters, Shadowdancers, and tons of others.
This what I want. It will never happen, but this is what I want.
There are enough classes now that it is time for a culling.
Get rid of the useless or redundant classes, of which there are a lot.
Bye, bye Fighter. Sayonara Rogue.
Cleric, Warpriest, Paladin. Pick one. They all hit the same concept.
And so on and so forth.
Of course it isn't just the old ones. Plenty of new ones, like the skald, investigator and vigilante are redundant junk better done through another class.
Paizo will never stop making new classes. Too much money to be made.
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There are enough classes now that it is time for a culling.
Cull the Feats!
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The only classes I want to see now are Ultimate Prestige, where they take prestige classes and make them base classes. So we can build Arcane Tricksters, Theurges, Dragon Disciples, Lorenasters, Shadowdancers, and tons of others.
I'm a big fan of being able to play your concept at the start of a game, so I'd be okay with this.
Culling feats and classes? That's 2nd edition talk (which I personally would be more than fine with). Otherwise removing stuff becomes problematic.
considering the amount of 3pp classes i've used/my players use, it will never be enough.
Still have zero support for my "water balloon throwing badass" concept.
Alchemist?
I will gladly take more base classes, as long as they offer something new. Paizo seems to be aware of the overwhelming amount - in Occult Adventures they gave an introduction which class is supposed to suit which taste. If they want to completely replace prestige classes by base classes and archetypes: Do it guys, you can get that done properly.
Even a few hundred classes can work well, as long as they are properly categorized or tagged. League of Legends is a quite successful game with 120+ different heroes (somewhat comparable with classes), the enormous amount of choices doesn't stop the players from playing. Or rather: The expanding amount is one of the features that keeps the game going. New players don't have to face these 120+ heroes at once, though. Heroes are sorted into role bins and only a minority is available from the beginning.
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Sure, but League of Legends is a computer game; additional mechanics mean nothing to a computer.
Obviously it's a matter of taste, so there is no right or wrong answer, but to this forty-something parent trying to squeeze in time for an RPGs -- often via PFS -- additional mechanics are a hindrance, not a selling point.
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- Spontaneous Nature "sorcerer"
- Artificer
- Side note: Artificer archetype with a candy-based motif
- An entire splatbook's worth of materials to cover mechanics for rap battles. I expect no less than three new classes and HEAVY bard/scald support.
- A class, much like the gunslinger, focused around Slings to make them viable. Call it the Slingslinger.
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The only classes I want to see now are Ultimate Prestige, where they take prestige classes and make them base classes. So we can build Arcane Tricksters, Theurges, Dragon Disciples, Lorenasters, Shadowdancers, and tons of others.I'm a big fan of being able to play your concept at the start of a game, so I'd be okay with this.
I'd love a book converting all the PrCs into 1-20 base classes. I think there's actually a 3pp that does a whole product line doing exactly this.
considering the amount of 3pp classes i've used/my players use, it will never be enough.
I'm kind of in this boat too. In addition to the Paizo core and base classes, we use the Dreamscarred Press psionic, initiator, and akashic classes, Drop Dead Studios' spherecasters, Northwinter Press' monster trainer, Alluria Press' various Cerulean Seas classes, Kyoudai Games' World of Aden classes like the Thunder Guide, Rogue Genius Games' Death Mage, Mosaic Mage, and Dragonrider.... I wouldn't be surprised if we use nearly 100 classes on a regular basis. There's just a lot of ideas that aren't well covered or executed by the materials Paizo puts out, or which I prefer done in a different manner then they chose to do them. I'm always open to new classes and archetypes, and just because something's been done, doesn't mean it can't be done better or in another manner that's more or equally interesting.
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- Spontaneous Nature "sorcerer"
the problem i have with this is the only thing i can think of is some kind of lycanthrope or some such, since all of the spont casters have fluff where their power comes from within... how does someone not have nature in them or at least more than normal. :P
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Still have zero support for my "water balloon throwing badass" concept.Alchemist?
True, nothing exactly stops you from filling the water balloons with nitroglycerin.
For that missile discovery, you just tie the baloon to an arrow.
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There are enough classes now that it is time for a culling.
Get rid of the useless or redundant classes, of which there are a lot...
...Of course it isn't just the old ones. Plenty of new ones, like the skald, investigator and vigilante are redundant junk better done through another class.
Skald maybe, Vigilante definitely, but I don't think there's another class that can do what an Investigator does with skills, especially an Empiricist Investigator. DMing for one right now, getting +1d8 on almost every skill, for free, is pretty great. I can't see another class doing "king of skills" as well as this one, and what's more it can pass out buffs with the Infusion talent, pass on crits with that Butterfly Sting (or whatever) feat, and is pretty SAD with Int, along with being the go-to UMD character since checks are pretty trivial.
I suppose on paper an Investigator might look ehh, but in practice they're actually really strong if you have a game that makes use of skill challenges to an appreciable degree.
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Another poster in another thread has put forth the idea:
Vigilante > Master Spy
Avenger > Stalwart Defender
Stalker > Shadow Dancer
Warlock/Zealot > Mystic Theurge
I actually wrote an article about what we are still missing a little while ago:
Some of my suggestions--
Full BaB/ 4th level Alchemist caster
Full BaB/ 4th level Arcane Caster focused on Illusions
Full BaB/ 4th level Arcane (or Divine) Caster focused on Necromancy
Full BaB/ 4th level Arcane Archer
6th level focused casters for Illusions & Necromancy, and possibly mental domination (but Occult may have that covered)
6th level focused Blaster Caster
And then, of course--
1/2 BaB 6th level Arcane Caster/ 4th level Divine Caster
and
1/2 BaB 6th level Divine Caster/ 4th level Arcane Caster
(and that means probably both Cleric and nature versions there of, and then 6th level Arcane/ 4th level Alchemist, ect.)
I'd second the need for a priest class...d6 HD full progression divine caster, no armor, wis to AC, improved channeling.
Warlock would be nice too.
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Full BaB/ 4th level Alchemist caster
Give it a Gun to launch its extracts and I'm sold.
Full BaB/ 4th level Arcane Caster focused on Illusions
Kinda sounds like a Bard or Mesmerist Archetype
Full BaB/ 4th level Arcane (or Divine) Caster focused on Necromancy
4th level... sounds like an Antipaladin Archetype
Full BaB/ 4th level Arcane Archer
Bloodrager Archetype. All the way.
6th level focused casters for Illusions & Necromancy, and possibly mental domination (but Occult may have that covered)
You kinda just described the Mesmerist exactly
6th level focused Blaster Caster
Just need to expand the Magus spell list, since it's already damn close to being a blaster-caster as-is
And then, of course--
1/2 BaB 6th level Arcane Caster/ 4th level Divine Caster
and
1/2 BaB 6th level Divine Caster/ 4th level Arcane Caster
(and that means probably both Cleric and nature versions there of, and then 6th level Arcane/ 4th level Alchemist, ect.)
Yeah, no.
Just make it a 6th level Spontaneous caster. Uses Wisdom to cast spells.
It's spell list looks like lv1 2/2; lv2 2/3, lv3 3/3, etc.
You always have to have an equal number of Arcane and Divine spells known, or at least whenever possible; so at first level, you have 2 Arcane and 2 Divine spells known, at second it's 2 Divine and 3 Arcane or 3 Divine and 2 Arcane, at third level it's 3 Divine and 3 Arcane, yadda-yadda.
You cast Divine or Arcane spells as you wish using your Spell Slots.
There are 2 ways to handle the Spell Lists so that you don't have overlaps as to which is Divine and which is Arcane:
You have a 2 different Spell List - one Divine and one Arcane; this requires a lot of work on the part of the devs, but allows for mixing things up pretty well.
Whether a Spell is Arcane or Divine is based on its School:
Abjuration, Divination, Conjuration, Necromancy is Divine
Evocation, Transmutation, Illusion, Enchantment is Arcane.
I prefer the first option over the second, but the second is easier to keep track of.
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- Spontaneous Nature "sorcerer"some kind of lycanthrope or some suchLiked, shared, subscribed, reblogged, retweeted, kickstarted, preordered, spot reserved in line at the game store for release day.
I want this so badly.
Oh! I forgot to mention those! The New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press (did I mention it has 14 out of 14 5-star reviews? :) also has a nature-based, spontaneous caster, the shaman (and yes, the New Paths shaman came out more than a year before the Paizo shaman :) AND it has the skin-Changer class
Yeah - we don't need more classes. We need more flexible mechanics that will allow for more flexible game-play without needing to home-brew everything.
"more flexible mechanics"...
Cops & Robbers has the most flexible mechanics of any Roleplaying Game I've ever seen... doesn't mean it's fun.
If you've got a DM who can't figure out how to apply Skills and mechanics on-the-fly, get a better DM.
The only way to get truly "flexible" mechanics is to stop playing games with any mechanical rules at all and instead just sit around in a group telling a story of how awesome your guy is.
That's not fun, and it's not even a "game" - that's masturbatory.
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I've said this before, but the biggest thing I want is a "Simple Class Guide." A book with some, let's say 10, classes that do basically what other classes do but with drastically decreased bookkeeping.
I'd love to have a book to hand a new player and say "pick one of these and you're golden." Granted, the Strategy Guide helps a lot here, but a book with classes built for that purpose would solve a lot of problems for me.
Cheers!
Landon
The only classes I want to see now are Ultimate Prestige, where they take prestige classes and make them base classes. So we can build Arcane Tricksters, Theurges, Dragon Disciples, Lorenasters, Shadowdancers, and tons of others.
I'd rather see prestige classes turned into archetypes.
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"more flexible mechanics"...
Cops & Robbers has the most flexible mechanics of any Roleplaying Game I've ever seen... doesn't mean it's fun.
If you've got a DM who can't figure out how to apply Skills and mechanics on-the-fly, get a better DM.
The only way to get truly "flexible" mechanics is to stop playing games with any mechanical rules at all and instead just sit around in a group telling a story of how awesome your guy is.
That's not fun, and it's not even a "game" - that's masturbatory.
Pardon, but that's a false dichotomy. There aren't only two choices: Pathfinder or no mechanics at all. There is a whole range of possible options between the two, none of which deserve to be dismissed as "masturbatory." That's classic badwrongfun-ism.
Also, "sitting around in a group telling a story" is a tradition across many cultures, and an important mechanic for passing knowledge from one generation to the next.
Of course, none of this really has anything to do with some guy's opinion of Pathfinder. Maybe find something other to do than tell someone why his opinion is "wrong?"