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As a player I need to be challenged to enjoy the game. If I go multiple sessions without getting hit or threatened in the slightest i begin to lose interest.
I do like my characters, but i want to see what they are really capable of...not just speculate.
As a DM my goal is to make the party think they are about to die..and watch them pull thru against the odds...and their own expectations. PC deaths are uncommon, but the threat is ever present.

I thought the OP was trolling. Why would everyone want to play what is essentially the same build?
If every fighter is really "Bob the Fighter",sure you have to reach as a player to make yourself unique...in Old D&D it was like that.
So sure it encourages roleplay, but only because that's the only way you have to customize yourself.
More options > Less options.
It may be sacrilege to say this, but you don't have to use all the content at once. You can decide what classes,creatures and abilities you want in your games...so it's only as convoluted as the DM wants it to be (barring PFS,but that's another can of worms)

Pathfinder is a very advanced game, it's not easy to just 'pick up", but once it is it can be endlessly rewarding and replayable to the extent that many other games are not. That's the real strength of all the options...You could play 50 fighters in a row if you wanted and each could be totally unique.

30 point buy is good. There's no magic items.
Human preferred, but were creatures would be good antagonists...I'm playing it as a Tian human society being plagued by "The Shadowlands" and Oni's (Those familiar with L5R would recognize elements).
The PC's are currently Un.Monk 4, Un.Rogue 3/un.monk 1, and Samurai 4.
Each player runs a mook follower or 2 to round things out.

Here's a breakdown of the campaign,
The Jade kingdom
Campaign Summary: The game is set in an ancient chinese "Wu-Xia" style society. The inspiration for the setting comes from Crouching tiger hidden dragon, and movies of that type such as: Hero, starring Jet li. I will also be drawing from "Legend of the Five rings".
Goal: To use the Pathfinder ruleset to simulate the Genre. In order to make this possible a number of adjustments have to be made.
Books: All owned books are allowed except for the Ult.magic book.
Advancement: Will be fast.
Hero points: Will be used.
Called Shots: From the Ult. Combat book will be used. The debilitating damage threshold has been lowered to = Constitution score, or More than half of current HP (Whichever is currently greater).
Attribute bonuses: Characters gain +1 ability score point every even level (2nd,4th,6th,etc..) rather than the normal 4 levels.
Race: The society is human Asian, so the PCs must be Human. You may customise your Human with alternate racial traits and feats from the ARG.
Ability Scores: Will be determined using the heroic point buy system.
Traits: you get to choose 2.
Combat stamina: Is granted to all characters at lvl 3.
Skill Specialization: From Unchained will be used. It is a full feat, and may ony be taken once. Unch.Rogue may benefit more than once due to Rogues edge.
Inner Strength: All PCs have an Inner strength score equal to their level. Spending a point of Inner strength heals you 1d8 + HD and is a move action; it functions exactly like "Godless healing" from the ISWG.
You may perform this action even while unconcious.
Wu Shu: All characters begin play with the Improved unarmed combat feat. Martial arts are taught to all children from the time they are able to stand.
Combat maneuvers: Are move equivalent actions that do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Full attack: a character performing a full attack action may perform one free combat maneuver in addition to any other attacks made.

There will be no spellcasting classes allowed. Since the Focus is on the martial arts. Players may choose to be:
Monk: Both unchained and Core monk will be allowed, Core monk may choose an Archetype, Unchained monk may not. A PC must choose either Core or UnMonk, they may not multiclass between the 2.
Monk special weapons: Deal damage equal to the monks unarmed damage, and benefit from the monks Ki strike supernatural ability.
Samurai,Fighter,Cavalier and Barbarian function normally, Barbarian may be normal,templated,or Unchained.
Rogue and Ninja: Are both allowed. Rogue may choose an archetype or Unchained, Ninja may not. A PC must choose either Ninja or Rogue, they may not multiclass between the 2. Also, The following tricks and talents are Banned: Vanishing trick, Shadow Clones, Minor & Major magic.
Note: traps are not common in this society, so rogues are encouraged to use archetypes which offer better options than trapfinding.
Ranger: Is allowed but must play as a skirmisher.
All other classes are banned.
Alignment: Will not be used. We will instead be using "Honor" Variant system from Ult. Campaign.
All feats pertaining to magic are banned. There are some feats that allow supernatural abilities, such as elemental fist and Dragon roar; these are both allowed and encouraged.
Fighter prerequisites: You may substitute your base attack bonus for your fighter level for purposes of qualifying for feats.
New feats
Greater Inner Strength (1/2): You gain +2 Inner Strength. This feat may be taken multiple times.
Your inner strength score may not exceed double your HD.
Special training feats (Combat/Monk)
The following feats are considered combat feats,and may be chosen as monk bonus feats. Each may be taken up to 3 times.
Body hardening: Grants +1 natural armor bonus.
Strength training: Grants +1 strength.
Cardio training: grants +1 constitution.
Agility training: Grants +1 dexterity.
Meditation: Grants +1 Wisdom.
Style Focus: Grants +1 to hit and damage while fighting in the chosen style.

There are no magical items. No magic weapons,armor or anything else. Alchemical items are still available, and masterwork weapons and armor are far better.
Masterwork: Great blacksmiths can create weapons of legendary quality. The rules for MW weapons and armor are different here. In addition to the descriptions below, MW items gain +2 hardness per level of craftsmanship.
Craft DC:20 = Basic masterwork weapon, has +1 crit range. +1 to hit and damage.
DC:25 = Magic for purposes of DR, +2 to hit and damage.+1 crit range
DC:30 = Magic,and Silver. +3 to hit and damage.+2 crit range
DC:35 = Magic,Silver,and Cold Iron. +4 to hit and damage, +2 crit range.
DC:40 = Magic,Silver,Cold iron, and Adamantine. +5 to hit and damage,+2 crit range.
DC:50 = Perfect weapon, Ignores DR, +5 to hit and damage,+3 crit range, Vorpal, Indestructible.
Craft DC:20 = Basic masterwork armor. -1 ACP, +1 AC.
DC:25 = -2 ACP,+2 AC, -5' Movement penalty.25% fortification.
DC:30 = -3 ACP,+3 AC, No movement penalty. Grants DR 1/-,+1 max dex.
DC:35 = -4 ACP,+4 AC, Grants DR 2/-. +2 max dex. 50% fortification.
DC:40 = -5 ACP,+5 AC, Grants DR 3/-. + 3 max dex.
DC:50 = Perfect Armor, No ACP, Grants DR 5/-, +4 max dex bonus, 75% fortification.

Looks good, I'll adjust a few things for the campaign, bump up his stats, drop his magic gear. He could cause some headaches. I'll give him some followers.
I'll let you know how it goes.

@ Myself: That just makes it more interesting. No PC has gone that route yet, but the enemy wouldn't be able to use their style against such a foe....but then the formless mastery wouldn't work. It's a wash.

@Lizardmage: You can PM or post them here, Thanks!
@claudekennilol: I'd like to check out the Kitsune style monk, it would make a good NPC....especially in an Oriental land. I'm unfamiliar with the style, so write it in the sheet if possible.

Hello everyone! I'm currently running a kung-Fu styled campaign, set in a home brew Asian martial kingdom. The kingdom is run by triads of style masters...there are 5.
Scorpion-Boar-Mantis (The Fates)
Monkey-Janni-Panther (The Winds)
Crane-Snake-Snapping Turtle (The Pillars)
Dragon-Djinni-Tiger (The Furies)
Marid-Efreet-Shaitan (The Elements)

I find myself in need of many NPCs...mainly unchained monk, but other templated monk builds would be useful.
Would anyone care to submit some monk builds who specialize in these animal styles? I need a wide variety ranging from levels 5-10.
I'll be making some myself ofcourse, but if i use your build i'll provide a full battle report of how they did.
The kingdom has alot of official dueling so the build may be matched against a PC of equal level....and I promise to fight to win ;).
A couple of notes: All characters start with Combat stamina, and all PRD content is being used except for the ACG.
Also, there is no magic, and everyone speaks common. So no wand wielders, or need for linguistics.
Only non-magical equipment please.

I'm sure they just didn't include a "Sexiness" score,because the game doesn't much address sex.
It also allows everyone to imagine their character as "good looking" if they want.
I don't see many "uggo" iconics...regardless of Cha score.

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When this happens I allow the invisible player to take a 5' step if they don't want to take the attack of opportunity.

Here are some magic-less rules I wrote for a campaign we just started.
The jade kingdom

Clerics are better.

If you really want to see limbs fly, use the called shot rules in Ult.Combat and reduce the threshold for debilitating injury to the characters constitution score or more than half of current hit points(whichever is greater).
That's the recipe i went with at least...flavor to taste :)

The Paizo critical hit deck can produce a wide range of debilitating injury.

Has your DM considered Hero points? My games are fairly dangerous, and generally over CR...but player's don't usually Die completely unless they are really unlucky or haven't been saving their hero points.

Just a few days ago the party of 4 6th level PCs in my game, murdered an advanced pyrohydra with 6 heads (CR8), in just 2 rounds.
It's hard to make the hydra live up to the hype without doubling the HP in the body or something.

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Very nice. I'm gonna use her in my current campaign...which features a lunar dragon as a major antagonist/possible ally. I was considering bringing in a version of Selune from Forgotten Realms until I saw this.
So...i guess necromancy..or threadomancy has it's uses :)

For flavor I like..
Paired Kama
3-piece rod
Qaianna already mentioned 2 bladed sword, which was the first thing that came to mind.
I also like the Scorpion whip and the spiked chain.
I wish the blowgun had more utility.

Looks good..that font is wonky though. It does have a campy charm...but i think it would look better in a different font.

I guess a non-optimized "rollplayer" would just want to play the game mechanically sans roleplaying...and does so poorly :)
In my experience, the players that make the best characters are often the best roleplayers.They are invested in the game, have a clear picture of their character and circumstances....and have actually read the books.
I've encountered a few munchkins in my day..that brought net builds and paid zero attention to the story. They were not in the majority though...
Pathfinder rewards study....a player that has read the core and the APG is going to build a better character,with the same resources,than the same player only having read the core.
The player base represented on this forum is the opinion of the highly informed, and many, many GMs.
People with a passing interest in the game, or "beer and pretzels" players...don't sit around on forums debating the minutia of rules and character concepts.
Many are game designers or writers themselves.
It is biased...but it is an informed bias.

Trees are creatures...ask any 'Ent.

You should also refer to yourself in the 3rd person whenever possible :)

Channeling is great outside of combat. It can heal everyone so you can continue without using your spell slots.
If your GM allows access to easy CLW wands...it doesn't much matter either way.
Healing in combat is usually sub-optimal...but sometimes the timely application of a high level healing spell can make the difference.
In general it will never outpace damage though.

Some feats are silly...true, and actually serve to limit the game (like Strike back)... helpless prisoner is dumb too.
The idea is good (feats)..the application lets us down sometimes.

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Point buy is better because it's fair.
Random rolling is too much like real life :D , No one wants to play a s%!# hand....or be arbitrarily outdone by some luck sack.
I've played since 1st edition...and the options just keep getting better.Let us not forget the disappointment of realizing that the turd you just rolled won't qualify for Ranger...the class you wanted to be...because of the ability score requirements.
There was a time when "Role-playing" WAS customization...i.e. it's all you had to customize with.
With the advent of non weapon proficiencies...and later, feats the player gained a new way to enjoy the game...by trying out different mechanical builds and combo-ing abilities in new ways.
The game now has synergy.
Personally, I love to see a new build come together over the course of a campaign.
the fact that the games mechanics can be explored and enjoyed in and of themselves, is a feature, not a flaw.
I wish my players were more interested in the mechanics honestly...
Sure...you can't "Win" at pathfinder....any more than you can "Win" at life...but it doesn't stop people from trying.
It's a basic desire...Ambition(or Greed), and it has it's place in the narrative right alongside of Love,Honor, and the search for identity.

You could be Glenda the good witch! :D
The Feral speech and Heal hex would go well.
Bruising intellect perhaps...for those furious moments.
Fortune and Ward are "Good" hexes.
The patron theme of stars from UM is really cool. It gives wandering star motes at 8th among other things.

Clerics can be really awesome....one of the best classes in the game. You can cast spells in armor and fight decently.
The healing is free in the form of channeling, and can damage undead if needed. Domains give you access to the spells you want for your theme..want to throw fireballs? take the fire domain....Want invisibility?...Take trickery.
A cleric can fulfill a wide range of concepts...not just healbot.

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logically the dagger should be able to damage the wall.
Meanwhile the game-ist assumption is in place saying that since the weapon ignores hardness it cuts thru solid objects like a lightsaber.
This seems like the selective application of logic to me.
Imagine using a diamond knife to carve your way thru a stone wall...nearly impossible, you could do it "Shawshank redempion" style over a long period, but that's about it.
The game says adamantine ignores hardness....it also says that knives are ineffective at tunneling.
The rules are pitted against one another, applying GM fiat to the situation takes it out of the realm of RAW and into the realm of irreconcilable opinion based argument.
For instance, I don't see adamantine allowing a character to swing effortlessly thru solid rock...it just means that it can actually do damage.
Again, the rules don't cover the particulars of improvised mining and tunneling.
I'm waiting for the "OreFinder" expansion...so I can try and dig up the Arkenstone :D

Embrace the customization....it really is great. The game is infinitely re-playable. You could make a character a day, every day, for a year, and still not even come close to exhausting the mechanical variations available.
I enjoyed the simpler games...but one can only play so many "Bob the Fighter" characters....however you fluff the bones.

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More Complex....that's what it's become.
Why are you afraid? You realize as GM you have infinite strength right?
Let them be bad-asses...challenge them.
I love playing with optimized PCs ,You'd be surprised what they can survive.

Seth Dresari wrote:

So, a normal attack can be done as either a Move Action or a Standard Action, meaning that you could swing your sword and then drink a potion you had on your bandolier, or use a wand or something?

One idea that I had was to take a character's BAB and use that to grant extra Attack Actions period, like the Fighter in D&D 5.0 (a 5th level fighter always gets two attacks per turn, without needing to make a Full-Round attack; Thus, their turn can be 1 Move and 2 Attacks if they want)

I like this approach...it's how our group plays. Variant unchained action economy with characters gaining +1 attack point per 5 pnts of base attack.

These points can be combined with regular action points for standard and full attack actions.
Example; a 5th level Fighter could move and Whirlwind attack in the same round.

My vote is for Arcane Duelist bard.

Sniper goggles would let you Sneak attack at range.

I imagine it would crumble.

Player's often use scratch pads and dry erase boards to track use per day powers,HP and spells. The character sheets are in plastic sleeves so they can use dry erase.
It's not insurmountable...but I used to be able to have full sessions without it being an issue.
It's not just PF, I love the crunchiness...most of the people I play with are married with children and jobs...so time and logistics are difficult.
I'm not saying PF is slower than 3.x, but it's definitely slower than 2nd (and better for it), I was just able to play games for 6-8 hours then.
I mainly just wanted the OP to know he wasn't the only one struggling with time and game restraints.
I'm not looking for a solution myself...I just need to find some players with more free time.

Jiggy wrote:
Larkspire wrote:

How long are your sessions? Our group usually meets for 4-5 hours....which doesn't seem to be enough time really. I find it's hard to get them through a full adventuring day most of the time....combat takes so long, I'm basically forced to usher them into the next combat quickly or abandon all pretense of attrition.

I think Pathfinder is best played all day long....if you really want to get anywhere. Most of the time I feel that it's almost a choice between roleplaying and combat...either you over reward players for roleplaying....or you spend the whole session fighting.
This has just been my experience from playing 3-4 hour sessions...ofcourse you can always have 1-2 combats and more RP, but if you don't heavily reward the RP the party will level very slowly.
...Why do you have to finish an "adventuring day" in one session? Why can't the session end between scenes? Are you worried that people will change their records of remaining HP/spells between sessions or something?

They don't keep records....it would be up to me to to enforce it and track it personally....otherwise ending the session is like shaking an etch-a-sketch. I don't want to personally go over each persons character sheet and notate their current status.

That's why I try to at least complete a single day in play and get the party "tucked in" and ready to resume next game.
I am seriously considering making a party tracking sheet for that purpose...but it's tedious.

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There's no impact physics in the game. No matter how hard you hit someone, unless you have a feat to cause it, they are never staggered or knocked back a square.

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Driver (rogue): To fulfill all your heroic wagon steering fantasies.
Roof runner(rogue): is atrocious too...for numerous reasons.
Sea reaver (barbarian):hardly worth it even in a sea based campaign.
Skirnir (magus): So disappointing.

How about like a "Ki Shaper"? Stealing the life energy from others and shaping it... Maybe drain Ki/Stamina/Arcane etc...pools to form weapons and other objects? or constitution i.e. breath?
Some battlefield control would work that way....form a wall of Ki force,form armor and shields....form shackles and chains like Pinhead!

How long are your sessions? Our group usually meets for 4-5 hours....which doesn't seem to be enough time really. I find it's hard to get them through a full adventuring day most of the time....combat takes so long, I'm basically forced to usher them into the next combat quickly or abandon all pretense of attrition.
I think Pathfinder is best played all day long....if you really want to get anywhere. Most of the time I feel that it's almost a choice between roleplaying and combat...either you over reward players for roleplaying....or you spend the whole session fighting.
This has just been my experience from playing 3-4 hour sessions...ofcourse you can always have 1-2 combats and more RP, but if you don't heavily reward the RP the party will level very slowly.

Seems OP. I could see the "warrior" stealing some part of the victims essence and applying a debuff or something. You'd have to do alot of work making the weapon scale like a Magus blade or something.
It also means that the PC always starts out without a weapon...which could be a problem....especially if he's fighting a soul-less construct or something.
The weapon breaking should release the energy back to the victim...if it lives still.
I see a lot of complications.
I'd prefer to see a class that forges it's own spirit into a weapon....that would be cool, like the Magus' athame, soul-knife or psylocke type character.
If you can yank the life out of people, why not just kill them that way? seems more direct than making their soul into a knife and stabbing them with it. You do have their soul after all.

I believe the area of intent concerned is really the classification as ally or enemy that's causing the effect. So the Clerics intent is significant in that regard...but that's the only distinction the system seems to allow it to make.

I like:
Flowing monk
Ninja (rogue archetype basically)
Gravewalker (just nasty)
Phalanx Soldier (Because: THIS IS SPARTA!)- better in theme than in practice.

Kieviel wrote:
Wow... this is still going...

I think it's become an intellectual battle at this point.

The answer to the OP is obviously "Yes", you can most certainly be flanked even if you are a blind,insensate,comatose slug.
+2 to hit and sneak attack all day long.
Now it's about whether this makes any sense or not.
It seems like there's a valid argument for certain situations making the mechanics of flanking seem questionable.
The mental contortions needed to arbitrate consciousness based flanking are considerable,and i can understand why the developers didn't bother.
At the end of the day, nerfing flanking only puts more nails in the Rogues coffin.
Flanking by RAW covers the vast majority of situations and doesn't require an extra page of explanation.

Sounds like DMPC "Mary Sue" territory. The problem with making a class for yourself is that it's either too powerful or not powerful enough.
Usually it's too powerful.
Another problem is getting someone to let you play it (probably not)...which means the only way you can play the class is if you run the game...and usually that means bringing in some "Plot monster" DMPC whose purpose in life is to be a badass...and either lead or defeat the PCs.
I've played plenty of classless RPGs...but that's not quite the same thing.

just troubleshooting. Making sure it was intentional...doesn't seem OP.
One thing that may be though...graceful strike seems to allow automatic hits...since you are only rolling to confirm...if you fail to confirm do you still hit?
Power cleave seems to arbitrarily reward multi-dice weapons...like Scythe or Great sword..to the detriment of long swords and Great Axes.
devastating push seems like it should require the power strike to hit to activate.
Echoing pain seems more like echoing damage..is kinda brutal, it basically doubles vital strike damage and cripples spellcasters. I'd have it work like the Magus ability lingering pain...which is basically the same, except that the total damage is counted as continuous, but is only dealt once.
Lingering Pain (Su): The magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as an immediate action after hitting a target with a weapon attack. All damage from that attack (including damage from a spell cast using the spellstrike ability) is considered continuous damage for the purposes of any concentration checks made by the target prior to the beginning of the magus's next turn.
EDIT: I re-read power cleave...seems ok after all..as long as it means what I think it means :). Sets of dice rather than individual dice.

Malwing wrote:
Larkspire wrote:

Can you use two stances at once?

No. I didn't want them getting out of hand so I made them eat move actions. I hoped to keep them making them more powerful by making them exclusive from each other. Also to avoid unforeseen combinations.

That is unless they turn out to be too weak.

You can use a standard as a move action....seems like you could do Defensive and Readying stance at the same time...unless you specifically dis-allow it.

I'd second the need for a priest class...d6 HD full progression divine caster, no armor, wis to AC, improved channeling.
Warlock would be nice too.

@ Malwing- it was the pre-reqs and incidental term references that I was thinking of...but a conversion guide should do the trick.

Can you use two stances at once?

Bandw2 wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
HWalsh wrote:

Which is a nice idea... Except for that it can't happen...

From the spell's description:
"The rope cannot be removed or hidden."

Of course it can be hidden. Are you really going to try and tell me I can't put a shower curtain around the rope?

What's the alternative really? The world suddenly implodes as all reality breaks breaks down for defying all known logic put in place by the Rules gods?

Even out in the open, the rope is still hidden from somebody. After all, the planet itself would conceal the rope from those on the other side of the globe.

But that can't happen... *rolls eyes*

The rules say that the rope may not be hidden.

The rope must there for be out in the open. You can't actively conceal it.

so basically, i guess you can't use it indoors then since you're concealing it from people outside, or even just outside the room?

I just house ruled that extra-dimensional spaces don't provide their occupants with restful sleep....problem solved.

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