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I'm kinda bored right now and was thinking of interesting build.
what build has any of you done that usually is called sub par but made work through some manner of third party or simply to good effect in actual play.
I'm talking about using your weak bloodlines or trying to TWF, or a gunslinger only using 1 pistol.
mine I'd have to say was a kobold multiclassed monk and unchained rogue, dex to damage on fists and making all my stats the save stats i had wonderful saves and AC, while getting dex to damage on fists made me par for the course in damage output. the hampered condition allowing me to keep the pain on from flanking.
I played an anthorpomorphic cerberus with four arms. I could have made a great fighter, but I became a multiweapon fighting magus.
Single class non-archetype fighter using only his fists.
I focused on AC/Toughness and STR boosting.
Wasn't in any way optimized, but turned out to be fairly deadly (boost STR high enough and your damage dice REALLY stop mattering).
If I recall correctly, his feats looked more or less like this:
1h-toughness
1f-dodge
1-improved unarmed
2f-focus unarmed
3-fleet
4f-specialization:unarmed
5-deflect arrows
6f-power attack
7-leadership
8f-greater focus:unarmed
And so on. Obviously level 7 helped a lot, he got a cleric follower that just healed and buffed him.
Not an efficient build, but super fun. Turned into quite the bar-brawler, and punching a dragon in the face is just damn satisfying.
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Just one I heard about. This guy's character couldn't shoot a crossbow to save his life. Which is sad because he kind of built for it, but he just kept missing. Finally in a fit, he just chucked the crossbow at the enemy and rolled a nat 20. Jaw dropped, (and monster with it) He cut the damn string and started using it as a club. And rolled consistently high enough that he ran with it into his teens.
Well, I became a pretty high DR dealing Rogue, but many times it was dependant on having some other PC or other item allowing me to flank first.
I suppose that's more of a character class than a fighting style though.
It was a TWF Rogue however, and if you consider trying to always flank somehow as a fighting style....
I did make an interesting Janni Flowing Monk who specialized in making herself a rediculous wall.
Between Crane Style (pre errata), stupid high AC, and a heavy focus on Reposition and trip made for some fun times lol.
I had a horribly statted ranger (it was my first time, so I was pretty much like 'oh, charisma sounds important, and I won't use strength so I'll put nine in that') but I managed to make her work by giving her octopus companion tridents in all eight of his tentacles - not strictly sticking to the rules, but it did let her have a decent damage output.
I'm talking about using your weak bloodlines or trying to TWF, or a gunslinger only using 1 pistol.
mine I'd have to say was a kobold multiclassed monk and unchained rogue, dex to damage on fists and making all my stats the save stats i had wonderful saves and AC, while getting dex to damage on fists made me par for the course in damage output. the hampered condition allowing me to keep the pain on from flanking.
Those styles are all rather strong though... sorcerer is still a 9 level caster, even with trash bloodlines, a pistol still goes through all sorts of armor and with signature deed you can get a large damage bump, and TWF is VERY easy to make work when done right. All of them can make minmaxing optimizers scream, but they are valid options.
And a dex to damage kobold is child's play. No, the hardcore thing is making a STRENGTH based kobold work out. Here are the stats of Rockhead Rockwell
STR: 14 DEX: 14 CON: 12 INT: 7 WIS: 8 CHA: 12
This...'special'... young kobold was giving his nickname when he tried to free himself and some friends from a caved in tunnel by bashing it with his head...when the other end of the tunnel was still completely free and open. He spent his youth stumbling through the traps of his tribe's warren...because he could never remember where they were placed. Through this, he gained the natural knack of dumb luck in avoiding them. He thus became an archaeologist bard specializing in luck.
With fate's favored and lingering performance, he could use his luck ability for pretty much every single fight...bring his melee up to 'standard'. After a level in archaeologist, he could then multiclass into pretty much any melee class and do fairly well (since that archetype could give a fairly good front loaded ability with that set up)
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In 3.5 I had a blind guy with a tower shield. No special rules for being blind - but he did have (and was inspired by) the Combat Focus feat tree - giving him blindsight 5ft. (Also worked because in 3.5 spot & listen were separate skills - and he took feats [Skill focus & Keen Listener] to jack up his listen check.) After playing him I realized all of the advantages being blind actually gives you.
Gaze attack? Don't care.
Obscuring mist? Don't care.
Darkness spell? Don't care
Etc
Wait did I miss something. Is TWF with pistols the norm?
Wait did I miss something. Is TWF with pistols the norm?
It is if you have extra tentacles, vestigal limbs. Ot sentient hair..
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Wait did I miss something. Is TWF with pistols the norm?It is if you have extra tentacles, vestigal limbs. Ot sentient hair..
It is on these boards.
But remember- WE ARE A TERRIBLE SAMPLE.
The people that consistently hang out on the boards, particularly the advice, rules, and general discussion ones, are those that have a certain degree of investment in this game, and often a fairly decent level of system mastery.
While I am not going to say that means we are a raving bunch of minmaxers, rule lawyers, and the ilk...there is a certain positive correlation to at least lighter forms of that behavior, particularly among those that consistently post builds. This is also mixed with a culture that tends a bit towards bravado (DPR olympics, basically), and you attract the people most likely to make weird DPR minded builds, and then you encourage them to make them. So we are hardly the 'norm'.
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I've got a couple of different Arcane Trickster builds with Witch as the primary caster, which is generall frowned upon because of a "lesser" spell list and losing out on scaling DCs on hexes. You make it work by ignoring hexes that have DCs -- Prehensile Hair, Disguise, and Tongues are my goto Hexes for this build.
A battle Witch (that isn't an Orc Witch Doctor for that matter) is a pretty lousy premise to start with, but Swashbuckler 1/ Witch 6-8/ Eldritch Knight can be made to work as a combination caster/melee.
On the casting side Ill Omen is a no-save level 1 spell with a roll-twice-take-worse debuff, so you can use it to cripple enemy attacks and saves; Evil Eye with Soothsayer is guaranteed to last until the end of your next turn even with a save. With Wayang Spell Hunter you can have Quickened Ill Omen as a level 4.
On the melee side, strength patron grants Divine Favor/Power and the Witch has Heroism, so you can run around doing the Fencing Grace swashbuckler thing in darkleaf leather armor - with Divine Favor going and Heroism covering for Power Attack you can get some pretty respectable rapier damage.
For melee/casting synergy, you can throw Quickened Ill Omen at something and then stroll up with a Bestow Curse against their crippled save, leaving you relatively safe from their neutered attacks and in a position to start striking with a rapier the next round. It's a fun "warlock" theme to curse foes into despair and then run them through.
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I made a halfling champion (order of the sword) whose primary weapon was a lance. We were playing the Carrion Crown campaign. It wasn't easy making it work, but riding a wolf made a *huge* difference. He flopped only because I didn't realize that his mount ability gave his wolf evasion and a series of fireballs killed his mount when it should have done 0 damage. The best part of using a wolf-riding halfling was that his total size while mounted was medium, which meant he could go into any place the rest of the party could. His challenged enemy charges were awesome, especially when other members of the party took advantage of his teamwork feats that he could grant (through tactician) and charged with him as he had the Coordinated Charge feat. Also his wolf had a base speed of 60ft, with a run/charge speed of 300 (his wolf had Fleet x2 and Run), which was pretty nice. Even fully armed and armored he was only a light load for his mount. He was awe inspiring in the open, and still useful in dungeon crawls, up until he lost his mount. Then he was a tiny, slow, tank with weak damage.
That's not an inefficient combat style. The lance is the go-to weapon for the cavalier. Order of the Sword, wolf mount, and coordinated charge are all solid choices. And halflings actually make very good cavaliers.
The most "inefficient" PC I've seen was probably a halfling titan mauler barbarian with an earthbreaker and an armoured kilt (the only top-tier rage power he took was Come and Get Me). He used to disguise himself as a human child following the party wizard around. Beat the end boss into a pulp.
I also made an unarmed strike magus as an NPC - scared the party pretty good by taking 90% of the fighter's HP in one turn using greater trip/vicious stomp and his inquisitor buddy with paired opportunist.
I made a halfling champion (order of the sword) whose primary weapon was a lance. We were playing the Carrion Crown campaign. It wasn't easy making it work, but riding a wolf made a *huge* difference. He flopped only because I didn't realize that his mount ability gave his wolf evasion and a series of fireballs killed his mount when it should have done 0 damage. The best part of using a wolf-riding halfling was that his total size while mounted was medium, which meant he could go into any place the rest of the party could. His challenged enemy charges were awesome, especially when other members of the party took advantage of his teamwork feats that he could grant (through tactician) and charged with him as he had the Coordinated Charge feat. Also his wolf had a base speed of 60ft, with a run/charge speed of 300 (his wolf had Fleet x2 and Run), which was pretty nice. Even fully armed and armored he was only a light load for his mount. He was awe inspiring in the open, and still useful in dungeon crawls, up until he lost his mount. Then he was a tiny, slow, tank with weak damage.That's not an inefficient combat style. The lance is the go-to weapon for the cavalier. Order of the Sword, wolf mount, and coordinated charge are all solid choices. And halflings actually make very good cavaliers.
The most "inefficient" PC I've seen was probably a halfling titan mauler barbarian with an earthbreaker and an armoured kilt (the only top-tier rage power he took was Come and Get Me). He used to disguise himself as a human child following the party wizard around. Beat the end boss into a pulp.
I also made an unarmed strike magus as an NPC - scared the party pretty good by taking 90% of the fighter's HP in one turn using greater trip/vicious stomp and his inquisitor buddy with paired opportunist.
With risky striker, halflings are actually rather high tier melee characters. It is a second power attack (non of the 2hand/offhand stuff, but still), and it stacks with power attack. And the penalty? 1 AC- not noted as scaling.
As a strength build, you make up for your strength penalty just by taking the feat (size helps the attack bonus)- every 4 BAB after that, you are just going golden.
Get cheesy with dual wielding lances and make your GM cry lol
The most inefficient build I made work was an AOO whip-tripper.
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With risky striker, halflings are actually rather high tier melee characters. It is a second power attack (non of the 2hand/offhand stuff, but still), and it stacks with power attack. And the penalty? 1 AC- not noted as scaling.
As a strength build, you make up for your strength penalty just by taking the feat (size helps the attack bonus)- every 4 BAB after that, you are just going golden.
I'm absolutely on board with melee halflings, hence objecting to calling a halfling cavalier "inefficient." But a halfling barbarian is probably the least popular melee halfling I've run across on the boards, because the barbarian is particularly invested in max strength and particularly uninterested in the racial charisma bonus. (Also, I'm pretty sure ours didn't have Risky Striker.)
I'm absolutely on board with melee halflings, hence objecting to calling a halfling cavalier "inefficient." But a halfling barbarian is probably the least popular melee halfling I've run across on the boards, because the barbarian is particularly invested in max strength and particularly uninterested in the racial charisma bonus. (Also, I'm pretty sure ours didn't have Risky Striker.)With risky striker, halflings are actually rather high tier melee characters. It is a second power attack (non of the 2hand/offhand stuff, but still), and it stacks with power attack. And the penalty? 1 AC- not noted as scaling.
As a strength build, you make up for your strength penalty just by taking the feat (size helps the attack bonus)- every 4 BAB after that, you are just going golden.
Eh, a bonus in something you don't use is just an excuse to hard dump it without feeling guilty (since I cringe whenever I see a 5 cha...but 9 seems fine to me). Save a bit on dex in the point buy as well, and you can afford 16 str on a 20 pt buy...which is a bit low, but not bad for a melee class.
Really, working with a standard penalty in something you use is usually like working with a point buy 5 pt lower.
But anyway, risky striker is fantastics...particularly since the 1 AC you lose pretty much comes from your size bonus anyway. By level 4, you are golden.
I'm absolutely on board with melee halflings, hence objecting to calling a halfling cavalier "inefficient." But a halfling barbarian is probably the least popular melee halfling I've run across on the boards, because the barbarian is particularly invested in max strength and particularly uninterested in the racial charisma bonus. (Also, I'm pretty sure ours didn't have Risky Striker.)
What about gnome barbarians? I am playing one these days.
My daughter created the character Muffin, but she moved out of town when her barbarian was 9th level. She left the character sheet with my wife, who played the halfling sorceress in the party. When I joined the game, I revived my daughter's character, leveling her up to 11th level like the rest of the party.
Muffin is a weird build: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 14. Her feats are Dodge, Mobility, Fleet, Quickdraw, and Raging Vitality, but not Power Attack. That omission was a deliberate choice, so I am not changing it. I added Combat Reflexes. Her rage powers are the Beast Totem line and Raging Climber and Guarded Stance.
Her tactics are to rush the enemy and soak up attacks of opportunity so that the other party members can position themselves safely. Then she hits things with her lucerne hammer. Raging, of course. If her opponent closes in and she cannot back away, she uses her rage claws.
It sounds ineffective, but it works. She is the second most dangerous party member, after the halfling sorceress. The armor-wearing sorceress is built around touch attacks. For the rest we have a bard, rogue, and cleric. The biggest disadvantage about Muffin is that the magic weapons we scavenge off our foes are for Medium characters.
I built a Sword Saint samurai with the Order of the Flame. Very cool archetype with a very unfortunate ability that requires good timing, positioning, and eats up your entire turn for a very long time. We just let the Glorious Challenge ability work with his Iaijutsu Strike. Decided to use the Called Shots mechanic with him, and after I was able to take the Greater Called Shots feat, the Iaijutsu Strike along with damage from Challenge AND Glorious Challenge made sure the heads and hands just kept flying off.
I had a spring attacking goblin rogue with helcat stealth and an insane bonus to stealth. He never did that much damage but the spring in stab and stealth away fighting style drove my GM nuts.
I'm in the process of putting the finishing touches on a level 1 wizard. Her combat style? She's putting everything on her familiar.
Its not even an optimized familiar.
She's a wizard with the Exploiter Wizard archetype so she can up Caster Levels. She's also got Cypher Magic to up caster levels with scrolls. Her familiar is an owl with the Valet archetype and the Familiar Focus feat. So...
1. spend 50 GP to craft a scroll with Enlarge Person while using Arcane Reservoir to up the Caster Level by 1
2. use the scroll on my familiar casting with Cypher Magic (+1 Caster Level)
3. Familiar Focus pumps the spell up 1 CL to level 4; my owl has Str 12 and Dex 15 for 4 minutes (the typical duration of clearing about 4 rooms in a dungeon)
As we level... that's right... I'm going to get either Evolved Familiar feats or Teamwork feats. What's that you say? When am I going to dip into Fighter for 2 levels, give the familiar all my combat feats and then go Eldritch Knight? I'm NOT! I'm going to go all Wizard though I may go Cyphermage for some of the fancy lore in that PrC.
I'm going to make a bunch of magic items and scrolls, I'm going to buff myself and my familiar to try and make us tanks, and then I'm going to use Teamwork feats and my traits that pump my Aid Another contributions to +4 to make sure that my familiar can hit.
Is it efficient or not? I don't know. Have I made it work yet? No, but once I get her on the table and figure it out, you'll all be the first to know!
Savage Technologist Barbarian/Gunslinger
I'm trying to make it work.
Currently using a Dragon Pistol and an Armor Spike as my dual wielding system, with a machete for when the gun doesn't want to cooperate.
Seems to work pretty well.
I think a 1 gun Pistolero could actually be pretty nasty. I’ve got a Viking doing reasonably well with TWF right now, but since he’s Mythic maybe that doesn’t quite count. The fact he uses two 1d4 weapons is a source of comedy and badge of honor.
I also convinced a friend in a previous (pre-Unchained) campaign to have his Rogue with the Scout and Swashbuckler archetypes use his free martial weapon proficiency to fight with a lucerne hammer. The idea of an agile Elf hopping around dealing deadly precision blows with a big hammer amused us, and the fact he could use Gang Up with my Summoner and Eidolon made getting sneak attack easy. He'd also often use his reach to hide behind us since we had better AC.
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Single class non-archetype fighter using only his fists.
I focused on AC/Toughness and STR boosting.
Wasn't in any way optimized, but turned out to be fairly deadly (boost STR high enough and your damage dice REALLY stop mattering).
I did something similar for a villain NPC once. The encounter was at a party where everyone was supposed to be unarmed, so most of the PCs were without their weapons. He surprised the heck out of the barbarian when he stepped up and did over 20 HP just punching her in the nose!
I'm absolutely on board with melee halflings, hence objecting to calling a halfling cavalier "inefficient." But a halfling barbarian is probably the least popular melee halfling I've run across on the boards, because the barbarian is particularly invested in max strength and particularly uninterested in the racial charisma bonus. (Also, I'm pretty sure ours didn't have Risky Striker.)
I've run a Titan Mauler/Viking Halfling that was extremely effective up until the game ended around 9th level. I have Risky Striker AND Power attack. I even took two-weapon fighting, which isn't at all optimal. However, the amount of to-hit bonuses I was swinging around, I ate those penalties with a smile and still murdered faces while one-handing a two handed weapon. Sure, I was dumping AC to offset the bonuses. I didn't care. Opportune parry and riposte! I has a spiked gauntlet, fool!
*sigh* It's a shame I never got to get Come and Get Me...
