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It has already been established that the casting of Stilled & Silenced spells can be observed, since bystanders get to roll a Spellcraft check. So what's the point of the Warlock's Concealed Casting talent? It's definitely not concealing anything, since it merely hides Verbal and Somatic components.
Also: the talent's description specifies it works on "the target". If that is the target of the spell, then a third party would still see and hear everything. "Observers" are only mentioned in relation to an already hidden Vigilante.
It has already been established that the casting of Stilled & Silenced spells can be observed, since bystanders get to roll a Spellcraft check. So what's the point of the Warlock's Concealed Casting talent? It's definitely not concealing anything, since it merely hides Verbal and Somatic components.
Also: the talent's description specifies it works on "the target". If that is the target of the spell, then a third party would still see and hear everything. "Observers" are only mentioned in relation to an already hidden Vigilante.
It doesn't seem to work in Pathfinder. It would work in 3.X D&D, because you specifically had to see or hear the somatic/verbal components to identify the spell. In Pathfinder, you just have to see the spell be cast, not the components.
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You are correct that merely having no components does not make a spell undetectable. Concealed casting is meant to conceal the spell amidst other conversation and gestures, like the bard feat Spellsong from UM, which even uses similar mechanics. Please playtest it as such. We'll work on the wording over here for the final release!
You are correct that merely having no components does not make a spell undetectable. Concealed casting is meant to conceal the spell amidst other conversation and gestures, like the bard feat Spellsong from UM, which even uses similar mechanics. Please playtest it as such. We'll work on the wording over here for the final release!
Would concealed casting be usable in the social identity
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You are correct that merely having no components does not make a spell undetectable. Concealed casting is meant to conceal the spell amidst other conversation and gestures, like the bard feat Spellsong from UM, which even uses similar mechanics. Please playtest it as such. We'll work on the wording over here for the final release!Would concealed casting be usable in the social identity
Personally, I really like that idea, but right now you don't get talents in the social identity. With the likely addition of general social-specific talents that apply to social identity, it'll make it easier to tag more talents to work in social identity. Can you guys think of any more of them that seem like they're a strong fit (not just things we'd want to have in social identity to be stronger, but things that fit it really well like concealed casting).
Well, the Stalker talents Mighty ambush, Pull into the shadows, Silent dispatch and Throat jab look like they are a good fit.
They seem like things that James Bond would do while infiltrating the bad guy's casino, for instance. Or Bruce Wayne during a hostage situation at Wayne Manor, quickly and silently taking out the mook blocking his way to the bat-wardrobe.
Enviornment weapon or suckerpunch might be useful/make sense if an Avenger is in a social interaction, and are attacked? Not sure though...
Like if somebody gets in a bar fight they arent going to take the five minuites to change into their identity heck it might even make sense for them to reach for a random iten as oppossed to a weapon that a "commoner" might not typically have
Case the joint is sort of one of these already
I can't think of anything for zealot that currently exists from its lists of talents..
Oh does the avenger have access to the bonus feats He gets from combat skills during their stints in social idnetity interactions? Or do the feats just go away?
Personally, I really like that idea, but right now you don't get talents in the social identity. With the likely addition of general social-specific talents that apply to social identity, it'll make it easier to tag more talents to work in social identity. Can you guys think of any more of them that seem like they're a strong fit (not just things we'd want to have in social identity to be stronger, but things that fit it really well like concealed casting).
Perhaps familiar, since having a creature stop existing would be rather weird, it's more likely the familiar is just going to be left at home in your social identity rather than ceasing to exist.
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Personally, I really like that idea, but right now you don't get talents in the social identity. With the likely addition of general social-specific talents that apply to social identity, it'll make it easier to tag more talents to work in social identity. Can you guys think of any more of them that seem like they're a strong fit (not just things we'd want to have in social identity to be stronger, but things that fit it really well like concealed casting).You are correct that merely having no components does not make a spell undetectable. Concealed casting is meant to conceal the spell amidst other conversation and gestures, like the bard feat Spellsong from UM, which even uses similar mechanics. Please playtest it as such. We'll work on the wording over here for the final release!Would concealed casting be usable in the social identity
Talents that work by "tagging" a target while in social mode, so they can be tracked back to their hideout, or that allow someone to quickly memorize the layout of a place to give them bonuses while fighting in the dark could be cool
A trope I have seen in use with characters who have a secret identity is evading an attack in a form that looks accidental, like clumsily knocking a gun away so that it shoot someone else, or tripping over something to avoid getting shot.
Not sure how best to work that into a talent though.
Maybe another option would be to keep the present talents, but allow a separate ability tied to what the talent is for, that can only work in social situations? That way if you pick something up, it's not something that only works in one form or another.
It does seem like social mode needs to be more integrated into the class, and allowing something like the above would help.
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I'm not a huge fan of the current multiple-identities thing. I think it's because of two things: first, the social identity feels like an afterthought to me as I read through the class. Second, the class options are very prescriptive right now--I can't build the completely tangential concepts out of the class that I like to do. As a result, as someone who hasn't exactly been dying to play a character with this particular flavor, I find the identity thing totally disengaging. It gives me ideas, but I can't build them with the class yet.
The big problem: with almost no interaction between the identities, a +4 bonus to a skill or two is a really terrible exchange, mechanically, for nearly all of your class abilities.
You can increase the power of the social identity or increase the interaction between identities; I personally think both would be worthwhile.
You can increase the skill focus of the social identity; for example, instead of tagging a skill for a +4 bonus, you could replace each +4 bonus with a selection of a skill that they are considered to have their HD worth of ranks in while they're in their social identity.
You could provide a bonus to a number of social skills (or let the PC pick?) that scales at 1 bonus for every 2 class levels.
I really love the tagging idea. What if a Sense Motive check vs. a target while you're in your Social Identity (or substitute some other skill or check) would give the vigilante some sort of benefit in its vigilante identity depending on which specialization you take? Say, to hit and damage... or lowering their saves vs. your spells and spell-like abilities... or improves your intimidate, stealth, and CMB checks vs. them?
On top of that, what if the secret identity could improve the social identity? Say the concept is that you're an industrial baron who's using his secret identity to sabotage his competition and steal their trade secrets? Maybe by intimidating them or stealing their secrets or leaving a lasting magical effect, you could actually give your social identity significant bonuses to social skills like diplomacy, bluff, or sense motive checks to negotiate deals or extract confessions?
Combined, that would give you a lot of incentive to use both identities instead of hanging around inside of one identity for your whole adventuring career.
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Personally, I really like that idea, but right now you don't get talents in the social identity. With the likely addition of general social-specific talents that apply to social identity, it'll make it easier to tag more talents to work in social identity. Can you guys think of any more of them that seem like they're a strong fit (not just things we'd want to have in social identity to be stronger, but things that fit it really well like concealed casting).You are correct that merely having no components does not make a spell undetectable. Concealed casting is meant to conceal the spell amidst other conversation and gestures, like the bard feat Spellsong from UM, which even uses similar mechanics. Please playtest it as such. We'll work on the wording over here for the final release!Would concealed casting be usable in the social identity
Concealed casting seems more something more fitting for a Social ability, as that's the one more concerned of not being identified as a covert spellcaster compared to the Vigilante self that spent the night blasting people anyway
Concealed casting seems more something more fitting for a Social ability, as that's the one more concerned of not being identified as a covert spellcaster compared to the Vigilante self that spent the night blasting people anywayPersonally, I really like that idea, but right now you don't get talents in the social identity. With the likely addition of general social-specific talents that apply to social identity, it'll make it easier to tag more talents to work in social identity. Can you guys think of any more of them that seem like they're a strong fit (not just things we'd want to have in social identity to be stronger, but things that fit it really well like concealed casting).You are correct that merely having no components does not make a spell undetectable. Concealed casting is meant to conceal the spell amidst other conversation and gestures, like the bard feat Spellsong from UM, which even uses similar mechanics. Please playtest it as such. We'll work on the wording over here for the final release!Would concealed casting be usable in the social identity
While I definitely want it in social mode, the vigilante mode seems to be more along the lines of ominous chanting such that you can't pinpoint the origin. And there are definitely some use cases- stuff like casting Detect Thoughts to tell when somebody's lying without giving away that you're relying on that, or self-buffing without showing weakness. Agreed, though- it's much more useful for being able to conceal your spellcasting in mild-mannered mode.
Ooh, just thought of something. If an Avenger takes bonus feats, do those disappear in mild-mannered mode? If so, that's going to mess up any feat chains you take in a very unpleasant manner.
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They really need to get rid of the whole "you lose your abilities in social mode" rule. It causes more problems than concepts it helps to create.
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They really need to get rid of the whole "you lose your abilities in social mode" rule. It causes more problems than concepts it helps to create.Strongly agreed. The same effects can be created by having a character just refrain from using their abilities when in social form.
What then should be the penalty for not refraining ? Some kind of Ex-Vigilante clause ?
Perhaps the Talents could be used in the Social Identity, but only some and only at higher levels. Like every 5 levels you could choose one Talent that could cross over.
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Yeah the idea of "You used a class feature you should be punished!"
Is odd to say the least.
This is a game with magic users abundant. Why could the vigilante not be a magic user and a "normal member of society" too?
Okay so the masked thing running around uses magic -- that's not surprising lots of people do.
Personally, I really like that idea, but right now you don't get talents in the social identity. With the likely addition of general social-specific talents that apply to social identity, it'll make it easier to tag more talents to work in social identity. Can you guys think of any more of them that seem like they're a strong fit (not just things we'd want to have in social identity to be stronger, but things that fit it really well like concealed casting).Perhaps familiar, since having a creature stop existing would be rather weird, it's more likely the familiar is just going to be left at home in your social identity rather than ceasing to exist.
This does give me an idea for a "dreamer" vigilante whose imaginary friend appears to aid her at night.
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This does give me an idea for a "dreamer" vigilante whose imaginary friend appears to aid her at night.Personally, I really like that idea, but right now you don't get talents in the social identity. With the likely addition of general social-specific talents that apply to social identity, it'll make it easier to tag more talents to work in social identity. Can you guys think of any more of them that seem like they're a strong fit (not just things we'd want to have in social identity to be stronger, but things that fit it really well like concealed casting).Perhaps familiar, since having a creature stop existing would be rather weird, it's more likely the familiar is just going to be left at home in your social identity rather than ceasing to exist.
Not a bad idea. If you had a Figment Familiar then it wouldn't be so weird to have it disappear when you changed into your Social Identity.
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Seems like a nice concept to have an archetype for the warlock that gets an eidolon instead of spells.
OOOOH, does anyone remember the fantasy series magical kingdom for sale sold!?
The king in that would be a prime example of a vigilante has this class has one since he was the king but then with the use of a pendant he became this superbad hero defender type person.
There's another archetype that will need to be hit:
The vigilante that has the special item that transforms them, like he-man, Thor, the aforementioned king, and Sailor Moon.
Something that I am considering along the same lines is giving a pool of "mundane" spells that can be cast as a talent if their "social" person is a spell caster.
I'm thinking like have of what they normally get (both in number and spell level) so they can be a "mundane caster" and still have their actual spells for when they go out vigilanting.
All in all the class is a mess, though the base concept is sound.
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They could simply have it where if you use an ability in social mode there is a chance of being found out. It could be a skill check against a DC by the viewer that rises higher as the Vigilante levels up, making it clear the character is gaining better experience at hiding it or misleading others. Success wouldn't mean you are found out, just that the viewer will have reason to believe there's more to you, and possibly a connection, to the "alter ego."
Yeah, this is one of the ideas we've been bandying around. We have several exciting potential ideas moving forward, but this is one of my favorites.
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They could simply have it where if you use an ability in social mode there is a chance of being found out. It could be a skill check against a DC by the viewer that rises higher as the Vigilante levels up, making it clear the character is gaining better experience at hiding it or misleading others. Success wouldn't mean you are found out, just that the viewer will have reason to believe there's more to you, and possibly a connection, to the "alter ego."Yeah, this is one of the ideas we've been bandying around. We have several exciting potential ideas moving forward, but this is one of my favorites.
I'm just gonna go ahead and say, you should not have a class feature that is HARDER to use as you increase in level. If anything you should be getting better at it.
They could simply have it where if you use an ability in social mode there is a chance of being found out. It could be a skill check against a DC by the viewer that rises higher as the Vigilante levels up, making it clear the character is gaining better experience at hiding it or misleading others. Success wouldn't mean you are found out, just that the viewer will have reason to believe there's more to you, and possibly a connection, to the "alter ego."Yeah, this is one of the ideas we've been bandying around. We have several exciting potential ideas moving forward, but this is one of my favorites.
A solution our group has been thinking about is a quick change ability that allows an unseen Vigilante to switch between social and Vigilante in one round. At the moment, I'm playing a warlock and we're going with a 1st level spell to do it but a class feature, talent or feat to do it * amount of times could work too. *(could be level, 1/2 level, casting stat or some other variation of times per day)
It would be pretty great to have some sorta "quick change" thing.
Even if it's like.. "tear some cloth off something and wrap it around you while turning your jacket inside out changing the colours"
Something like that.Basically allows you to quick change, but the costume does not last as long as your real costume. Like lasts class level rounds before it detoriates to the point of uslessness. But only takes a fullround action to change. Either limited use per day, or don't. It would be a great way to start out a super hero. LIke the new DareDevil netflix show.
The spell we worked out is a standard action to cast and lasts 1 min/level. We figured basing it on minutes allows for some fighting and maybe a bit of chasing before it wears off. Anything less, like rounds, seemed WAY to short to finish an event, like a fight, and then find a place to change back before it wore off.
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I'm just gonna go ahead and say, you should not have a class feature that is HARDER to use as you increase in level. If anything you should be getting better at it.They could simply have it where if you use an ability in social mode there is a chance of being found out. It could be a skill check against a DC by the viewer that rises higher as the Vigilante levels up, making it clear the character is gaining better experience at hiding it or misleading others. Success wouldn't mean you are found out, just that the viewer will have reason to believe there's more to you, and possibly a connection, to the "alter ego."Yeah, this is one of the ideas we've been bandying around. We have several exciting potential ideas moving forward, but this is one of my favorites.
I think Barachiel is saying that it gets harder for others to ID you, not for you to hide.
yup, its pretty short. But if it was a full round action(presumably growing faster as level up) would represent the dificultly pretty well.. but not the best of course.
I think it probably should be a class ability or talent, so they can all get it.but felt like mins per level sorta (as abiity not spell) seems a bit long. Since a lot of things have super short combat days (well some pfs etc) it would become rather rare to fully change in some situations. As a spell I think mins work since your paying for it though.
Maybe if it's a class ability (times per day or not) it could be 1min initially and then scale with some % of levels. 1min per 3 levels or something.
I looked at it the other way. rounds seemed WAY to short. At first level you don't even have the chance to do anything and get into hiding before it gives out. It has to last long enough to actually DO something and I can't see much less than a min doing that.
EDIT: MAYBE something like 3+level rounds might work but that seems like cutting it pretty close IMO.
I looked at it the other way. rounds seemed WAY to short. At first level you don't even have the chance to do anything and get into hiding before it gives out. It has to last long enough to actually DO something and I can't see much less than a min doing that.
EDIT: MAYBE something like 3+level rounds might work but that seems like cutting it pretty close IMO.
Yeah I haven't a clue on balancing acts.. very true on low level stuff..
3+ rounds, and then make the "initial change" a full round action, then something like a swift or move or something to "readjust it" to put it up again.
not a clue honestlybut I would love the ability to change faster, even if it's not as stable (or whatever). It would help mitigate normal game restrictions. Whether your batman or Ironman styled
Yeah balance is always tricky. I've been testing it out as a spell and the two times I used it at 1 min/level, I only had a few round left when I was done. I'm keeping an eye on it, but it seem right at 1st-3rd. I'm curious to see how it'll feel when I get higher levels.
What strikes me as odd is that concealed casting can leave you where your foe can aoo you for a spell they don't know comes from you.
I would make it situational based on the attitude of the creatures facing you. If you succeed on the check you do not provoke and the spell is not realized as coming from you.
Then have another talent that allows the limit free use of still and silent spell a couple of times a day.
Yeah balance is always tricky. I've been testing it out as a spell and the two times I used it at 1 min/level, I only had a few round left when I was done. I'm keeping an eye on it, but it seem right at 1st-3rd. I'm curious to see how it'll feel when I get higher levels.Nice. I'm hoping it won't only be a spell thing though. Just because so few spells sand 2 specializations with no spells.
I'm hoping for multiple way to do it. I'd love to see a spell, a talent, a feat and maybe a general cut back in time needed. And if the spell is like mine, a 1st level spell, it would be easy and fairly cheap to make an item to simulate it. Like a quick change cloak, Fast Disguise Kit or Vigilante Mask. The more ways there are to 'fix' this, the better chance you can find a way that works well for any character.
It'd be interesting to see a racial FCB to reduce the time too.