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I want to loot bodies of dead foes while my party fights on without out my party seeing me. What I would like to know is what kind of DC would it be to do this. Is there a differences if an ally is next to me, has their back to me, or is behind me all the while they are fighting? I'm a CL5 Musket Master/ CL1 Ninja. SoH +11 Stealth + 15
As the GM ruled it (at the time and is asking the same thing) the DC for me was 10 plus their perception bonuses. As long as they continued fighting. This is not for things like armor/most weapons. Its for looting money/gem/jewelery/papers etc unseen. Is there a better way of doing this.
Also would like would you let your players do this to their party. As a player that sees them doing this what would you do?
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Also would like would you let your players do this to their party[?]
Absolutely not.
As a player that sees them doing this what would you do?
Talk to the DM and other player about not dicking over the rest of the party, and walk from the group if need be. Or maybe out-dick the rest of the party, but that wouldn't be pretty.
No. As a DM I have a house rule that being a jerk to other players provokes attacks of opportunity.
So in this group some of the party is looking at kill one member because they don't like him(and if they do I'm planing on do this to his belt of +2 Str. Also if they kill him there is a second party member that might die because they a friends. Everyone is looking to back stab everyone.
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No. As a DM I have a house rule that being a jerk to other players provokes attacks of opportunity.So in this group some of the party is looking at kill one member because they don't like him(and if they do I'm planing on do this to his belt of +2 Str. Also if they kill him there is a second party member that might die because they a friends. Everyone is looking to back stab everyone.
Run.
why are you so sure your safe?
remmber the leason from the southpark's episode about game of thrones. while you were out there some1 else was also taking a walk in the rose garden....
as for stealing from party memebers who just killed a party member they didn't like... BRILIANT!!! as a ninja you did take the 'ninja, vanish' abilities?
but more to your point, with the belt the gm might say is as hard as armor to take off without being noticed. it's not like loose change in a pocket. id say first get an identical(mybe cursed) belt and switch on the doomed character the night before the ambush, while he takes a shower(you do have the 'ninja, vanish' trick right?).
('ninja, vanish' refer to a phrase in the 1st tmnt movie)
No. As a DM I have a house rule that being a jerk to other players provokes attacks of opportunity.So in this group some of the party is looking at kill one member because they don't like him(and if they do I'm planing on do this to his belt of +2 Str. Also if they kill him there is a second party member that might die because they a friends. Everyone is looking to back stab everyone.
Unless everybody is enjoying themselfe doing this, i suggest carry on or try out the boardgame Diplomacy that is about broken trust and a good way to ruin a friendship.
I see stealing from other PCs as cheating the other players and thus don't allow it.
If I notice another player uses the "ingame my pc acts like that, it's no big deal" as a reason to cheat I tell them to stop or one of us has to leave the game.
If my pc notices being cheated/stolen from by another pc it depends on the pc in question. But most would kill the perpetrator during the next nights watch. Or challenge the other one to a duel if they're the lawful kind.
In other words I'd try to force the one of us has to leave by having only one of the pcs survive.
To clarify for those of you who seem confused, I am not stealing directly from my party members I am looting the dead {the ones I kill/do the most damage to) before the rest of the party checks the bodies, they don't even know the things I'm taking exist.
why are you so sure your safe?
remmber the leason from the southpark's episode about game of thrones. while you were out there some1 else was also taking a walk in the rose garden....
I'm not 100% sure I'm safe, that's why I'm investing in items that help my bluff, disguise, perception (no one else in the group puts ranks in) sense motive and sleight of hand. With this I'm at the point I'm extremely unlikely to get caught and if i do I will be able to get out of it.
With disguise I am kitsune, so there's ten with change shape (they have never seen my human form) the hat of disguise which is another plus ten and next feat I take will be no name which is another plus ten. My normal bonus is plus six, so with all these bonuses that's a plus 36 to my disguise check. So if I do get caught I can run off and disguise myself so well, I can rejoin the party as a human gunslinger.
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I agree that it would have to be a contested roll.
I disagree that it should be flat out disallowed or discouraged in any way shape or form from the GM or any other player in the group.
Their CHARACTERS might have issues if you are caught.
Reason being, this kind of thing adds an element to the group dynamics. If you are caught but the group values you enough, they let you live and just make sure to watch you more closely, or have you empty your pockets.
I personally would not care if you played your character the way you wanted to. It is entirely possible you as the player wish to play out the thief, but later might have a sudden attack of guilt and decide to confess everything and pay give back what you took... Most of my characters would laugh, the get distracted by something that looks big and mean and fun to kill.
The Avengers don't always play nice with each other. The group "rogue" person is usually the least trusted party member anyway, there is absolutely nothing truly stopping you from having your fun.
Regardless of how you spin it you are stealing from your party'
If this is acceptable to your group. Then your party should have a chance to detect your thefts (DM can have them role random perception checks)
I would also hope that your DM is paying attention to alignments
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Even if your party doesn't know you're stealing (which is unlikely, unless nobody has Perception ranks), it doesn't take a Perception check to notice you're farting around near guys that have been killed, and not helping in combat.
At which point you're not contributing anything. I as a GM would not give you any experience, and I as a player character would advocate not sharing gold and other loot, nor offering aid to you in combat...and that only as a compromise if I couldn't get the rest of the party to agree to tossing the dead weight out on his ear.
There is no way you can spin it that stealing from the party is a good thing. You're being a worthless combatant who drags everybody down when it matters, and you're taking things you haven't earned.
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I agree that it would have to be a contested roll.
I disagree that it should be flat out disallowed or discouraged in any way shape or form from the GM or any other player in the group.
Their CHARACTERS might have issues if you are caught.
Reason being, this kind of thing adds an element to the group dynamics. If you are caught but the group values you enough, they let you live and just make sure to watch you more closely, or have you empty your pockets.
I personally would not care if you played your character the way you wanted to. It is entirely possible you as the player wish to play out the thief, but later might have a sudden attack of guilt and decide to confess everything and pay give back what you took... Most of my characters would laugh, the get distracted by something that looks big and mean and fun to kill.
The Avengers don't always play nice with each other. The group "rogue" person is usually the least trusted party member anyway, there is absolutely nothing truly stopping you from having your fun.
Completely agree with this. The way I have always seen it is you have to be able to separate the things that happen in the game from the things that happen in real life, if you are playing with someone you don't like you can't go and kill their character just because you don't like the player. It's like using meta-knowledge, if the party in the case doesn't know the OP is pre-looting the corpses and not telling the party what he found, even if the player's know that it is happening they can't do anything about it.
Personally I would punish players for using meta-knowledge more than the person who is playing out his character and doing what his character would. Also as a GM you should stay out of party interactions, the only time you need to step in and disallow something to happen is if the arguments are leaving the table, and the other thing that people need to understand is that different groups play the game completely differently. Some groups are the do-gooders, those who travel around righting wrongs and saving the day, then there are evil groups who are the ones that the do-gooders try and put a stop to. Then there are the realistic ones in my opinion, the group that is composed of good and neutral characters who all have a reason to be adventurers, some are out for the glory and others are just in it for the money.
So if you want to play a thief like character who takes the loot he wants first and keeps his party in the dark go for it, as long as you are prepared to deal with repercussions from the rest of the party. And at the end of the day if you can talk about what happened later and laugh it off as something funny than good for your gaming group.
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"I'm just playing my character lol" has never been, is not, and never will be an excuse for being a prick.
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If you steal from the PC you betray the player. And I don't like playing with people who are betraying me.
If you steal from the PC you betray the player. And I don't like playing with people who are betraying me.
at least if it is a secret, it is possible to have PCs that try to scam the other PCs but it need to be two way fun and it is most fun when it dosent work out as planned.
If you steal from the PC you betray the player. And I don't like playing with people who are betraying me.at least if it is a secret, it is possible to have PCs that try to scam the other PCs but it need to be two way fun and it is most fun when it dosent work out as planned.
It is betraying, too if I know it and can't do anything about it because "You can't know that you're metagaming." Because of that, if it happens I let the group decide who leaves the game, the betrayer or I.
It is betraying, too if I know it and can't do anything about it because "You can't know that you're metagaming." Because of that, if it happens I let the group decide who leaves the game, the betrayer or I.If you steal from the PC you betray the player. And I don't like playing with people who are betraying me.at least if it is a secret, it is possible to have PCs that try to scam the other PCs but it need to be two way fun and it is most fun when it dosent work out as planned.
Yes but you happend to play with adults and everybody agree that "the story of the wizard that try to steal from his friends and alway end in a bad spot for it" could be fun. Then what is the harm in the wizard pocketing some stuff, and later failing a climb check and loosing it all hanging from a tree?
It seems you are talking about what the OP is doing, and that sucks i agree, but it can be done in a fun way. It is just important that the stealing guy dosent end up with a stronger character than his friends for it.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree that it would have to be a contested roll.
I disagree that it should be flat out disallowed or discouraged in any way shape or form from the GM or any other player in the group.
Their CHARACTERS might have issues if you are caught.
Reason being, this kind of thing adds an element to the group dynamics. If you are caught but the group values you enough, they let you live and just make sure to watch you more closely, or have you empty your pockets.
I personally would not care if you played your character the way you wanted to. It is entirely possible you as the player wish to play out the thief, but later might have a sudden attack of guilt and decide to confess everything and pay give back what you took... Most of my characters would laugh, the get distracted by something that looks big and mean and fun to kill.
The Avengers don't always play nice with each other. The group "rogue" person is usually the least trusted party member anyway, there is absolutely nothing truly stopping you from having your fun.
Completely agree with this. The way I have always seen it is you have to be able to separate the things that happen in the game from the things that happen in real life, if you are playing with someone you don't like you can't go and kill their character just because you don't like the player. It's like using meta-knowledge, if the party in the case doesn't know the OP is pre-looting the corpses and not telling the party what he found, even if the player's know that it is happening they can't do anything about it.
Personally I would punish players for using meta-knowledge more than the person who is playing out his character and doing what his character would. Also as a GM you should stay out of party interactions, the only time you need to step in and disallow something to happen is if the arguments are leaving the table, and the other thing that people need to understand is that different groups play the game completely differently. Some groups are the...
I also agree with this, but only for an Evil or Chaotic Neutral alignment Character. I wouldn't imagine other alignments would be down for doing that. Maybe an excuse for CG alignment if no one else is around, but not while companions are actively around you. (compelled good or neutral characters though because of some mysterious reason where they get tempted.... like a drawback that sometimes kicks in, maybe. maybe. but that would really be pushing it.) Hilarious for a group of all CN and/or Evil characters. Everyone trying to do it at times... You get caught the other players take an item form you as punishment.
One: Only small type items and no taking 10 or 20 on the SoH check obviously. Like daggers, rings, potions, headband, maybe a short sword or a belt. Belt could be pushing it as the time intensiveness of the nature of trying to get it off (maybe give a bonus to the companions' perception check if allowing that while companions are around when trying to get something like that.) That being for active group around you. If you are alone and find stuff, you could go after bigger things if you are able to put it somewhere, like a bag of holding for instance. But be careful with that as that is a bit more labor intensive(noises being heard.....,) and could increase your chances of being caught by a returning companion. Getting caught while you were by yourself can try to make an excuse with teh DM doing both your Bluff check if you are lying, or Diplomacy check if the item they see you are putting away you were actually going to let them know about, and their Sense Motive check and then the DM saying whether they believe you or not.
Two: If you are doing this in a current and/or ended combat area where others are, they will probably start to wonder why you are staying so far back and not doing anything except huddling over by the dead bodies. Sure, there are ways to get around this. Say you are hurt and are searching the body for a heal potions. That being said because as players you don't have to tell someone how far down you are exactly in hit points (they could do a perception to see how you look,) but exact numbers is technically metagaming. When doing this type of thing there will be opposed perception checks, but honestly according to the written out rules of the books, that roll is to be done in secret by the GM.
Three: If you get caught, something bad may happen to your character by the other players' characters... If that Character ends up being removed from play for some reason because of being caught. Would probably make a consequence be that you had to then play a character with the opposite alignment before you could go back to that alignment again. Gotta be consequences for having got caught......
Four: Completely viable thing to do by a CN or Evil alignment character.
Five: Be far easier if the rest of the group headed on if you were still looking around for hidden rooms (this actually happened in a campaign I was in. A friend, who is quite more duplicitous than I, and I who were both CN alignments stayed back to finish looking around the room. Others went on to the next couple rooms. WE searched, found a secret room. We split everything between ourselves as it fit for the characters... lqtm.) Definite added elements to group dynamics and story within the group.
Six: Already stated this but if they are around, definite perception checks, but done by the GM with penalties, because of all the stuff going on, or bonuses if nothing is going on or another players "Character" is suspicious. etc.
Seven: Most metagaming would be frowned upon. If a player just starts going I am gonna stay with the Thief because the player knows he is stealing, something could happen to the metagaming character.
I say most because probably one would be doing a lot of secret messages with the GM. If you get caught because you are constantly sending secret messages to the DM, that metagaming would be ok to me but that would translate to a bonus on their perception rolls to catch you because that would be in game and only metagaming by the GM, which is ok. lol. But as said if they try to catch you "lifting" the dead body or such because the player thinks you are stealing and not the Character actually suspecting/figuring it out, something would happen to the metagaming character.
If you don't agree with allowing this, One thing you should do as a DM/GM.
One: If you aren't cool with the idea, don't allow evil or chaotic neutral player characters. That would solve everything. As those types of alignments can do just that. Or just don't allow it even if you allow CN or Evil alignments
Just some of my thoughts. and my apologies if it is a bit winded or confusing.
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It is betraying, too if I know it and can't do anything about it because "You can't know that you're metagaming." Because of that, if it happens I let the group decide who leaves the game, the betrayer or I.If you steal from the PC you betray the player. And I don't like playing with people who are betraying me.at least if it is a secret, it is possible to have PCs that try to scam the other PCs but it need to be two way fun and it is most fun when it dosent work out as planned.Yes but you happend to play with adults and everybody agree that "the story of the wizard that try to steal from his friends and alway end in a bad spot for it" could be fun. Then what is the harm in the wizard pocketing some stuff, and later failing a climb check and loosing it all hanging from a tree?
It seems you are talking about what the OP is doing, and that sucks i agree, but it can be done in a fun way. It is just important that the stealing guy dosent end up with a stronger character than his friends for it.
If another player comes beforehand and tells the group: I want to play a pc that, for story sake, will steal loot but I will take care that it isn't so much it makes my pc stronger. This is a totally different thing than someone just grabbing extra loot because.
They ask beforehand and accept if the party sais no, all is well. If he just does it it's they leave or I do.
Grown ups talk, jerks the group.
just to point to the op.
being kitsune and using hat of desgiuse give the same bonus when you apear to be human. as both work using the same spell. so it wont stack. is like wearing two sets of shoes so yo uwont be barfoot.
I also agree with this, but only for an Evil or Chaotic Neutral alignment Character. I wouldn't imagine other alignments would be down for doing that. Maybe an excuse for CG alignment if no one else is around, but not while companions are actively around you. (compelled good or neutral characters though because of some mysterious reason where they get tempted.... like a drawback that sometimes kicks in, maybe. maybe. but that would really be pushing it.) Hilarious for a group of all CN and/or Evil characters. Everyone trying to do it at times... You get caught the other players take an item form you as punishment....
I'm CN as is most the party with a few N and one NG and one NE. The GM has said that I'm playing a paladin if i die or have to run because I get caught. This is so I don't play the same alignment and to add RP because people are killing each other.
One: Only small type items and no taking 10 or 20 on the SoH check obviously. Like daggers, rings, potions, headband, maybe a short sword or a belt. Belt could be pushing it as the time intensiveness of the nature of trying to get it off (maybe give a bonus to the companions' perception check if allowing that while companions are around when trying to get something like that.) That being for active group around you. If you are alone and find stuff, you could go after bigger things if you are able to put it somewhere, like a bag of holding for instance. But be careful with that as that is a bit more labor intensive(noises being heard.....,) and could increase your chances of being caught by a returning companion. Getting caught while you were by yourself can try to make an excuse with teh DM doing both your Bluff check if you are lying, or Diplomacy check if the item they see you are putting away you were actually going to let them know about, and their Sense Motive check and then the DM saying whether they believe you or not....
Talking 10 or 20 would be so broken and doing this is standard action with free action being -10. Yes small items only and I only have about 4.5bls I can take till I'm put a medium load. only have 8 Str.
Two: If you are doing this in a current and/or ended combat area where others are, they will probably start to wonder why you are staying so far back and not doing anything except huddling over by the dead bodies. Sure, there are ways to get around this. Say you are hurt and are searching the body for a heal potions. That being said because as players you don't have to tell someone how far down you are exactly in hit points (they could do a perception to see how you look,) but exact numbers is technically metagaming. When doing this type of thing there will be opposed perception checks, but honestly according to the written out rules of the books, that roll is to be done in secret by the GM....
As a gunslinger I sit in the back sometimes holding actions to make a casters day hell. Also bullets aren't cheap so i don't use the to kill this that die in one hit unless its to save a party member. They do know this I'm not the only gunslinger.
Three: If you get caught, something bad may happen to your character by the other players' characters... If that Character ends up being removed from play for some reason because of being caught. Would probably make a consequence be that you had to then play a character with the opposite alignment before you could go back to that alignment again. Gotta be consequences for having got caught.........
...Four: Completely viable thing to do by a CN or Evil alignment character.
Five: Be far easier if the rest of the group headed on if you were still looking around for hidden rooms (this actually happened in a campaign I was in. A friend, who is quite more duplicitous than I, and I who were both CN alignments stayed back to finish looking around the room. Others went on to the next couple rooms. WE searched, found a secret room. We split everything between ourselves as it fit for the characters... lqtm.) Definite added elements to group dynamics and story within the group.
I am and most the party is CN. In a group of ten people. This also means based on my the amount of stuff I can take is limited 4.5 to stay under light load, but getting the free time to move stuff to my bag of holding and this will not happen in combat or when the party is around.
Six: Already stated this but if they are around, definite perception checks, but done by the GM with penalties, because of all the stuff going on, or bonuses if nothing is going on or another players "Character" is suspicious. etc....
Yes the GM is making these rolls because there is far to much meta gaming happening as well as people lieing about rolls and their HP. Now he has to do more work be babysitting ten players because singling out the few might cause problems. We play in a store that anyone can show up and play as long as they fallow store rule. This is one of the reasons party members want to kill others is so that those people wont want to play. This I don't like but people are people.
...Seven: Most metagaming would be frowned upon. If a player just starts going I am gonna stay with the Thief because the player knows he is stealing, something could happen to the metagaming character.
I say most because probably one would be doing a lot of secret messages with the GM. If you get caught because you are constantly sending secret messages to the DM, that metagaming would be ok to me but that would translate to a bonus on their perception rolls to catch you because that would be in game and only metagaming by the GM, which is ok. lol. But as said if they try to catch you "lifting" the dead body or such because the player thinks you are stealing and not the Character actually suspecting/figuring it out, something would happen to the metagaming character.
Meta gaming is very big in my party with only two people and me RPing in this RPG. The newer people are not and people that have been playing table to RPGs for years don't like that.
...If you don't agree with allowing this, One thing you should do as a DM/GM.
One: If you aren't cool with the idea, don't allow evil or chaotic neutral player characters. That would solve everything. As those types of alignments can do just that. Or just don't allow it even if you allow CN or Evil alignments
Doing this is role playing in a role play game and you should always want that.
just to point to the op.
being kitsune and using hat of desgiuse give the same bonus when you apear to be human. as both work using the same spell. so it wont stack. is like wearing two sets of shoes so yo uwont be barfoot.
Change Shape (Su): A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex. The kitsune
always takes this specific form when she uses this ability. A kitsune in human form cannot use her bite attack, but gainsa +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action. This ability
otherwise functions as alter self, except that the kitsune
does not adjust her ability scores. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-kitsune
Alter Self
School transmutation (polymorph); Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you plan
to assume)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min./level (D)
When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any
Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form
you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the
listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and
swim 30 feet.
Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid,
you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.
Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium
humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/alter-self
Disguise Self
School illusion (glamer); Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 10 min./level (D)
You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and
equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller,
thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your creature type
(although you can appear as another subtype). Otherwise, the
extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or
obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person
or gender.
The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the
chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible
(sound) properties of you or your equipment. If you use this spell
to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check. A
creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize
it as an illusion. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/disguise-self
So alter self does not give +10 bonus on the Disguise check its racial. Using disguise self is a spell that adds +10 bonus on the Disguise check. They are also different spells so they can stack. As well as taking the feat No name next lvl and getting +10 more is possible. All three are different type of effects.
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Ok there's two reasons not to do this:
1. You are violating & taking advantage of a meta-rule. Honestly, if the other PC's saw your PC doing stuff liek that (even just hanging back in combat) they'd ask you to leave the group. The meta-rule is that we dont do that except in extreme cases as we want everyone to play.
2. Even if the Pc's might not notice, the players might, and you might lose friends and lose a game over acting like that.
It's a jerk move.
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To clarify for those of you who seem confused, I am not stealing directly from my party members I am looting the dead {the ones I kill/do the most damage to) before the rest of the party checks the bodies, they don't even know the things I'm taking exist.
Is this a troll?
I know, that's not a nice thing to say so I'm sorry, no offense meant, but really, you cannot be serious that you actually think it's OK to steal thing from monsters you kill and then later the party divides up whatever you didn't take for yourself?
You can't actually be serious. Can you?
Now that I got my WTF post out of the way, here's the rules:
I want to loot bodies of dead foes while my party fights on without out my party seeing me.
This takes time. You will be wasting combat actions while your allies are fighting and maybe dying next to you.
A single PER check can notice the most valuable item with an Appraise check of DC 20, but this won't help if the most valuable item in sight is a 315gp masterwork longsword while he has a 10,000gp diamond in his belt pouch - you can't see that diamond so you cannot know it's there.
Taking an item off a corpse is a move action. Removing clothing, belts, armor, etc., takes longer.
All of this is 100% visible to EVERYONE who has line-of-sight to you. Friend, enemy, innocent bystander, it doesn't matter. Everyone sees you doing this. EVERYONE.
You can try a Sleight Of Hand skill check as a Standard action to remove something small that is not tied down or fastened on the corpse. EVERYONE in sight of you gets to oppose that roll with their own Perception check.
What I would like to know is what kind of DC would it be to do this.
See above.
Is there a differences if an ally is next to me, has their back to me, or is behind me all the while they are fighting?
No. There is no "facing" in this game, so you can be in front of them or behind them and there is not difference. Your allies are using Perception so normal penalties for distance and other favorable or unfavorable conditions might apply.
If you put your body between the ally and the thing you're looting, you might break Line of Sight and then he should get no Perception check because he cannot actually see what you're going. But other allies nearby might have different lines of sight.
I'm a CL5 Musket Master/ CL1 Ninja. SoH +11 Stealth + 15
As the GM ruled it (at the time and is asking the same thing) the DC for me was 10 plus their perception bonuses. As long as they continued fighting.
I have no idea where he got this. It's just an opposed roll. Your d20+11 (SOH) vs. their d20+Perception. Period.
This is not for things like armor/most weapons. Its for looting money/gem/jewelery/papers etc unseen. Is there a better way of doing this.
Better is kill the monsters so your friends don't die, then loot them afterward.
But if you're set on being greedy while they fight the battle, then this is the way to do it.
Also would like would you let your players do this to their party. As a player that sees them doing this what would you do?
Yes, I let my players do whatever they want. But before they even make characters, I tell them to make characters who WANT to be in a group of adventurers, want to have friends they trust to keep them alive in dangerous adventures. Stealing form these friends and generally being a jerk will end up with their own character being removed from the group. Not by me, but by the other adventurers who don't trust them and refuse to travel with them anymore.
Then if the player does this, sooner or later those rolls are going to fail them and that's it, no more trust, and the other players are telling that guy to roll up a new character. At which time I tell him, again, that he must make a character who wants to be in this group and if he cannot do that, we'll have to ask him to leave the game.
The only time this is NOT applicable is when EVERY player agrees that they want a party of jerks and douchebags for whatever RP reason they want to do it. So far, this hasn't happened. But if it did, then I would let the PCs screw each other over as much as they wanted - but I'd still apply the rules and make them make actual rolls to try to be sneaky, as I described above.
As I said above, it sounds like the regulars at this game are fine with PvP - mostly directed at the walk-ins. Frankly, I'd walk. Not my kind of scene at all.
I did that once. The GM and his girlfriend, and his long-time army buddy and his girlfriend. A friend and I joined their group and within 2 play sessions my character was dead (shot in the back by the other PCs) and my friend's character was sold into slavery.
We left and never looked back.
Too bad really, those two girls were by far the prettiest two RPG girls I have ever seen in 40 years of gaming. I felt sorriest for them, actually; they were nice people with awful boyfriends. (From my short acquaintance with them I'm quite sure they were jerks outside of the game, too).
Also, would you let your players do this to their party? (I corrected this for you)I would. I'm not going to tell a player "No, you can't do this" when it's totaly legal, rules wise. [
So when a player sez his pC murders all the other PC's in their sleep and takes their stuff- and keep doing this time after time, so that no one but him gets to play more than a day- - well, that's "totaly legal, rules wise
"? And it's not by the way.Of course it's very easy to tell a player not to do this since you are the DM and you can say "Hey, this is a No Evils campaign, that was evil, that PC is now my NPC."
just to point to the op.
being kitsune and using hat of desgiuse give the same bonus when you apear to be human. as both work using the same spell. so it wont stack. is like wearing two sets of shoes so yo uwont be barfoot.Change Shape (Su): +10 racial bonus
Spoiler:A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex. The kitsune always takes this specific form when she uses this ability. A kitsune in human form cannot use her bite attack, but gains a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as alter self, except that the kitsune does not adjust her ability scores.Alter Self: transmutation (polymorph)
Spoiler:School transmutation (polymorph); Level bard 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 min./level (D)When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.
Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.
Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength.Disguise Self: +10 bonus
Spoiler:School illusion (glamer); Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 10 min./level (D)You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your creature type (although you can appear as another subtype). Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person or gender.
The spell does not provide the abilities or mannerisms of the chosen form, nor does it alter the perceived tactile (touch) or audible (sound) properties of you or your equipment. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on the Disguise check. A creature that interacts with the glamer gets a Will save to recognize it as an illusion.So alter self does not give +10 bonus on the Disguise check its racial. Using disguise self is a spell that adds +10 bonus on the Disguise check. They are also different spells so they can stack. As well as taking the feat No name next lvl and getting +10 more is possible. All three are different type of effects.
Reformatted and linkified.
Read it again:
Alter Self: School transmutation (polymorph): +10 bonus
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell. (see Table: Ability Adjustments from Size Changes)
No Name: +10 bonus
Prerequisite: Grit class feature or Amateur Gunslinger feat, Bluff 4 ranks.
Benefit: You often rely on surprise and misdirection in your social dealings. You gain a +2 bonus on Bluff checks, and you can spend 1 grit point to gain a +10 bonus on Disguise checks for 10 minutes per your gunslinger level (minimum 10 minutes). This deed does not actually change your appearance, but rather allows you to hide your identity in other ways.
Vocal Alteration: +10 bonus; transmutation
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one humanoid creature
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes
You alter the target’s voice to something else. For example, you could make the target’s voice high-pitched, husky, or nasal, or change its accent to an accent you are familiar with. If this spell is used as part of a disguise, the target gets a +10 bonus on the Disguise check when trying to fool a listener.
The target can vary the disguised voice just as it could its normal voice. For example, a halfling female given a male dwarf noble’s voice and accent could speak in falsetto, with a rural halfling accent, and so on.
This might add as well.
Untyped from three spells, racial, and a feat? At +50, be the man kitsune with no face.
/cevah
I knew someone was going to take this the wrong way and look at it in the black and white perspective. Leaving battle and stealing isn't the same as activly killing the other party members in their sleep. Doing anything to f!+* with the game repeatedly won't be met in the same fashion either.Also, would you let your players do this to their party? (I corrected this for you)I would. I'm not going to tell a player "No, you can't do this" when it's totaly legal, rules wise.So when a player sez his pC murders all the other PC's in their sleep and takes their stuff- and keep doing this time after time, so that no one but him gets to play more than a day- - well, that's "totaly legal, rules wise"? And it's not by the way.
Of course it's very easy to tell a player not to do this since you are the DM and you can say "Hey, this is a No Evils campaign, that was evil, that PC is now my NPC."
Stealing from other party members is a form of PVP. It does not matter if it is withholding loot or picking their pockets, you are stealing from the rest of the party.
I'm CN as is most the party with a few N and one NG and one NE. The GM has said that I'm playing a paladin if i die or have to run because I get caught. This is so I don't play the same alignment and to add RP because people are killing each other.
Ah, Chaotic Neutral. I had a feeling you'd be showing up here.
To echo most everyone, it isn't really a great thing to do. Given, however, that the party seems intent on killing each other and generally being uncooperative or horrible, I think the stealing is pretty much a drop in the bucket at this point.
Have a back up plan in case they see you. Plan a new character. Or a new group.
I'd allow it, at a pretty high DC. But you'd be subject to a Stealth Roll to do it to avoid an AoO. Plus, if one of your companions saw it and objected to it I'd allow a bit of PvP.
Well, I hope everyone at the table are good friends. Because if you are, then you're a bunch of friends playing a bunch of jerks - this can be fun if you guys are into it and if you can still be friends afterward. If you're not good friends, then you're basically just a bunch of jerks playing a bunch of jerks and it won't end well at all.
(Note: I'm not calling you all jerks because I'm assuming this is not what's going on. It's mostly just a back reference to the story I mentioned in my previous post. What a terrible game to be in if it really is like that...)
If I were any other player in this group, regardless of whether I'm your friend or just a jerk, the moment we're all in combat, fighting to survive, and I see your character standing over there doing nothing next to a corpse for a whole round (or more), I will roleplay my character as follows:
1. I might die here
2. I depend on my companions to keep me alive and I do the same for them - this is a vital social contract that ALL adventurers MUST share or they WILL die.
3. One of my companions is breaking this vital social contract
4. I no longer trust that companion. Even if I don't know why he's wasting time over there, he is just leaving me to fight and maybe die on my own rather than coming to my aid.
5. At best I convince the group to kick out the untrustworthy companion. If he resists, we kill him. (based on the group's various nefarious alignments).
6. If I can't convince them of that, I leave and find a new group of adventurers who actually give a damn about our social contract.
Alternatively:
4. I make my perception check and actually see my companion looting stuff from that corpse and hiding it on his own body.
5. I no longer trust that companion. Worse, I also dislike him. Intensely. He's stealing from ME! I intensely dislike thieves who steal from me so I intensely dislike this guy.
6. After the battle I confront him with all the rest of the group present. We expose his perfidy and kill him. We loot his stuff and forever joke amongst ourselves about what an idiot he was.
What I do not do, under any circumstances, is roleplay my character in any way that he is OK with his companions standing around in battle letting him die. Any adventuring companion who does that will never, EVER, be a companion of mine, regardless of whether he's stealing from me or not. Even if I am a LG paladin, I'll simply tell the guy "You fight, every round, all the time, never ceasing until the battle is over, or you're gone. Period. Find a different group if you won't contribute 100%, all the time".