Out of curiosity, could a Sacred Fist Warpriest use the Unchained Monk's Flurry of Blows?
Money Advantage where?nowhere, since he still has to shell out dosh to cover his armor disparity until his WIS gets high enough to count (still needs it if he wants armor enchants even then), and freeing up the neck slot for the amulet of natural armor helps his money a bit and makes him not need to pay the class ability tax for barkskin.
nice quality of life upgrade.
Remember though, the Monk never gets disarmed for the king.
#unarmedOP
which he is paying for by not being able to wear armor/shield/medium load+ and lots of feats/abilities/items to make it competitive with simply using a weapon.
Money Advantage where?nowhere, since he still has to shell out dosh to cover his armor disparity until his WIS gets high enough to count (still needs it if he wants armor enchants even then), and freeing up the neck slot for the amulet of natural armor helps his money a bit and makes him not need to pay the class ability tax for barkskin.
nice quality of life upgrade.
Remember though, the Monk never gets disarmed for the king.
#unarmedOP
which he is paying for by not being able to wear armor/shield/medium load+ and lots of feats/abilities/items to make it competitive with simply using a weapon.
Yeah, I was being sarcastic about it. If I recall correctly, some of the Paizo staff have actually used that excuse in the past.
Yeah, I was being sarcastic about it. If I recall correctly, some of the Paizo staff have actually used that excuse in the past.Money Advantage where?nowhere, since he still has to shell out dosh to cover his armor disparity until his WIS gets high enough to count (still needs it if he wants armor enchants even then), and freeing up the neck slot for the amulet of natural armor helps his money a bit and makes him not need to pay the class ability tax for barkskin.
nice quality of life upgrade.
Remember though, the Monk never gets disarmed for the king.
#unarmedOP
which he is paying for by not being able to wear armor/shield/medium load+ and lots of feats/abilities/items to make it competitive with simply using a weapon.
SKR, I believe it was.
MA
I see a lot of people are still unhappy about the price of the AoMF, was anyone expecting that to be fixed in unchained?
I read earlier that Tongue of the Sun and Moon becomes available earlier. When is that? (I have always liked the idea behind the ability, but it came into play way too late.)
Money Advantage where?In comparison to a TWF - which is significant since flurry is basically a TWF variant.
Not in comparison to THF though - which to many is the 'standard' combat style.
Flurry isn't TWF'ing anymore, though. It's more like the Monk being able to self-cast the most important part of Haste at will but lose the other cool bits.
I see a lot of people are still unhappy about the price of the AoMF, was anyone expecting that to be fixed in unchained?
I don't think anyone really expected the price of the item to change, merely that the class itself would be less dependant on having to buy an AoMF to bypass DR and so on.
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I see a lot of people are still unhappy about the price of the AoMF, was anyone expecting that to be fixed in unchained?
I read earlier that Tongue of the Sun and Moon becomes available earlier. When is that? (I have always liked the idea behind the ability, but it came into play way too late.)
You get it at 13th, so still late, but not nearly as much so.
Flurry isn't TWF'ing anymore, though. It's more like the Monk being able to self-cast the most important part of Haste at will but lose the other cool bits.
Except it stacks with Haste (though not with TWF).
Yeah, "Haste that stacks with Haste" is the primary draw of the Monk right now, alongside easy access to full attacking on a move. It's basically the master of "AM FULL ATTACK"... and not much else.
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Yeah, "Haste that stacks with Haste" is the primary draw of the Monk right now, alongside easy access to full attacking on a move. It's basically the master of "AM FULL ATTACK"... and not much else.
Eh. It's also a solid unarmed combatant in general with pretty solid defenses (if not as good as the pre-Unchained version), and good mobility.
It's no worse at utility and such than it was before, the offense just got ramped up quite a bit while the defense got ramped down a little less.
2 steps forward...
2 steps backward...
The more things change, the more things stay the same.
Side-grade, not upgrade.
Side-grade. That sounds like a new Pathfinder forum term. <sighs because it is an all to accurate term>
Side-grade. That sounds like a new Pathfinder forum term. <sighs because it is an all to accurate term>2 steps forward...
2 steps backward...
The more things change, the more things stay the same.
Side-grade, not upgrade.
It's not new. I heard and used ti a lot when I frequented the Steam TF2 Forums a lot, and I'm sure it's older than that.
All it really means is that a new unlock/variant class/whatever is roughly equivalent in power to, but different in function than, something else in the same slot/niche.
This is not always a bad thing (a sidegrade to a balanced class/item is also balanced), but when something was in need of an UPgrade, it is not good.
By the by, I posted some possible fixes for the Unchained Monk if anyone cares. I came up with them as I was writing them and they came into my head, so they may be a bit rough, but input is appreciated.
I see a lot of people are still unhappy about the price of the AoMF, was anyone expecting that to be fixed in unchained?
It basically was fixed in my opinion with the automatic bonus, since you can apply the bonuses to your unarmed strikes and standard clothes.
I have no issue with the AoMF price since it is also useful for creatures with natural attacks. I do have an issue with the monk being shoehorned into using it. Yeah I know that myself and other GM's can make ways to get around it, but not everyone has flexible GM's, and some of us play in PFS.
So with the new flurry can a Monk 2 hand a Sansetsukon and deal str*1.5 and power attack for 3/1?
If so that's a pretty big DPR upgrade!
As for style strikes, you can still flying kick for pseudopounce!
Also Monks have always been able to Flurry with a single weapon, so a handwrap for UAS wouldn't be OP at all. It's also similar to an item I wrote for an upcoming 3rd party product.
The new flurry does not act like TWF. It just grants an additional free attack so dealing 1.5 str with a weapon should not be an issue, and the 3/1 power attack would also come into play.
It is basically like getting the extra attack from haste every time he full round attacks.
I might throw a build or two together on my next day off to see if it is as good as I think it is.
I want to do an unarmed build, and two handed build.
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The new flurry does not act like TWF. It just grants an additional free attack so dealing 1.5 str with a weapon should not be an issue, and the 3/1 power attack would also come into play.
It is basically like getting the extra attack from haste every time he full round attacks.
I might throw a build or two together on my next day off to see if it is as good as I think it is.I want to do an unarmed build, and two handed build.
Make sure to take into account that even the weapon build needs to make any Style Strikes (and thus the first attack of many flurries) unarmed.
Make sure to take into account that even the weapon build needs to make any Style Strikes (and thus the first attack of many flurries) unarmed.The new flurry does not act like TWF. It just grants an additional free attack so dealing 1.5 str with a weapon should not be an issue, and the 3/1 power attack would also come into play.
It is basically like getting the extra attack from haste every time he full round attacks.
I might throw a build or two together on my next day off to see if it is as good as I think it is.I want to do an unarmed build, and two handed build.
I don't see anything saying the first attack has to be unarmed. Could you quote the sentence in question that makes you believe that?
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I don't see anything saying the first attack has to be unarmed. Could you quote the sentence in question that makes you believe that?Make sure to take into account that even the weapon build needs to make any Style Strikes (and thus the first attack of many flurries) unarmed.The new flurry does not act like TWF. It just grants an additional free attack so dealing 1.5 str with a weapon should not be an issue, and the 3/1 power attack would also come into play.
It is basically like getting the extra attack from haste every time he full round attacks.
I might throw a build or two together on my next day off to see if it is as good as I think it is.I want to do an unarmed build, and two handed build.
You're right, it's not the first attack, but it is the one that causes the special effect.
And Flying Kick explicitly requires the attack made after it to be a kick, so if you actually want a full attack at people more than 5 feet away from you you're gonna be opening with that. Which is why I expect a kick to be "the first attack of many flurries".
I see a lot of people are still unhappy about the price of the AoMF, was anyone expecting that to be fixed in unchained?
I read earlier that Tongue of the Sun and Moon becomes available earlier. When is that? (I have always liked the idea behind the ability, but it came into play way too late.)
It's not the price.
It's the fact that it can't go above +5. It's the fact that it takes a neck slot. Price only comes into play if you want to make it something other than an amulet.
After building a new monk - The thing that stuck out to me (besides the low ki pool) - was the fact that without either barkskin... or ki leech the new monk is going to struggle... (IMO).
I think giving either of those abilities for free to the monk would open things up.
Which is why my character gallery is held off-site and only linked to from here.Fun FAQt! (see what I did there?) Paizo has a legal disclaimer that, basically, amounts to anything directly posted to Paizo's forum gives them the legal right to use or reproduce for free without asking for permission, specifically to avoid little legal hang-ups like that.
Who owns my comments?
While Paizo Inc does not pre-screen message content, Paizo Inc does reserve the right to edit or remove submitted messages or material at any time. Paizo Inc is not responsible for the content of messages submitted by users of the site. Users posting messages to the site automatically grant Paizo Inc the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, nonexclusive right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, sublicense, copy and distribute such messages throughout the world in any media.
My homebrew is generally in google doc form for readability.
The d10 hit dice and full base attack is nice, but the class is still too MAD to be effective at later lvls without a good amount of gold spent to bump up stats. Also some of the Qinggong powers straight up cost less than the unchained ki powers, such as slow fall and quivering palm.
The d10 hit dice and full base attack is nice, but the class is still too MAD to be effective at later lvls without a good amount of gold spent to bump up stats. Also some of the Qinggong powers straight up cost less than the unchained ki powers, such as slow fall and quivering palm.
To be fair, Mark Seifter posted the Unchained Monk uses the Unchained powers when there is a cross over between the two. So you can't go back and select the normal power if an Unchained version exists.
The d10 hit dice and full base attack is nice, but the class is still too MAD to be effective at later lvls without a good amount of gold spent to bump up stats. Also some of the Qinggong powers straight up cost less than the unchained ki powers, such as slow fall and quivering palm.To be fair, Mark Seifter posted the Unchained Monk uses the Unchained powers when there is a cross over between the two. So you can't go back and select the normal power if an Unchained version exists.
Until we get the FAQ/errata that is not a rule just a suggestion.
So he is suggesting that you can't take the Qinggong power that lets you do the ki power?
It's my understanding, from my discussions with the PDT, that it follows from this part on page 8: "These classes can be used alongside their original counterparts (although individual characters must use one version or the other exclusively)."
Except the problem is that the qinggong list has its own ki costs for abilities. Unless you are saying that the qinggong abilities that replicate ki powers use the ki power cost instead of the qinggong cost.
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I want a style strike that can only be used with pelvic thrusts.Elvis style?
(Amusingly - Elvis did have a black belt in American Kenpo - one of the more vicious & dirty-fighting martial arts.)
Elvis Strike: The monk makes a pelvic thrust while crooning convincingly. If the attack hits, he may roll a Perform (sing) check and treat the result as a Diplomacy check to change the target's attitude. The monk must attack with a pelvic thrust to use this style strike.
Can there be a style strike that involves doing a spinning piledriver of some kind?
I don't see anything saying the first attack has to be unarmed. Could you quote the sentence in question that makes you believe that?Make sure to take into account that even the weapon build needs to make any Style Strikes (and thus the first attack of many flurries) unarmed.The new flurry does not act like TWF. It just grants an additional free attack so dealing 1.5 str with a weapon should not be an issue, and the 3/1 power attack would also come into play.
It is basically like getting the extra attack from haste every time he full round attacks.
I might throw a build or two together on my next day off to see if it is as good as I think it is.I want to do an unarmed build, and two handed build.
You're right, it's not the first attack, but it is the one that causes the special effect.
And Flying Kick explicitly requires the attack made after it to be a kick, so if you actually want a full attack at people more than 5 feet away from you you're gonna be opening with that. Which is why I expect a kick to be "the first attack of many flurries".
I also dont see anything saying the extra attack has to be a special attack.
I am reading it as just an extra attack.To clear up any confusion I was only saying the monk gets an additional attack. I was referring to any of its new special abilities.
Elvis Strike: The monk makes a pelvic thrust while crooning convincingly. If the attack hits, he may roll a Perform (sing) check and treat the result as a Diplomacy check to change the target's attitude. The monk must attack with a pelvic thrust to use this style strike.I want a style strike that can only be used with pelvic thrusts.Elvis style?
(Amusingly - Elvis did have a black belt in American Kenpo - one of the more vicious & dirty-fighting martial arts.)
What about something in more of a Rocky Horror flavor of Pelvic Thrust?
There is a pelvic thrust style strike but its limited to attacks with the pelvis and its not available until level 18.
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I don't know why you guys defeat on Elvis as the iconic pelvic thrust style user. This is the first thing that comes to mind when I think of pelvic thrust strikes.
I don't know why you guys defeat on Elvis as the iconic pelvic thrust style user. This is the first thing that comes to mind when I think of pelvic thrust strikes.
There is a pelvic thrust style strike but its limited to attacks with the pelvis and its not available until level 18.It also costs 4 ki.
and is a 1/day standard action.
Why not make stunning fist one of the bonus feats? Along with punishing kick and elemental fist etc.
Move ki powers to level 2 (or even 1st).
Ki pool needs to = level + wis mod or at the very least a way to generate more.
Move fast movement to level 1. It doesn't stack so who cares? Barbarians get it at 1st...
Style strikes need to come online earlier. Start at 3? Then every 3 or 4 after that and possibly the choice of a bonus feat/ki power instead.
Really looking over the class is very dissapointing. Style strikes are the only good to come out of this. Such a waste of a perfect opportunity to really make something cool and fun.
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Curious to work out my own thoughts on the Unchained Monk independent of the discussion going on here, I’ve completed a fairly thorough analysis of some benchmark builds. Reviewing my findings, I’m led to conclude that <the Unchained Monk is a successful class, and it may be fair to say (if my builds and numbers are approximately correct) that it is even a very successful class>.
This appears to contradict the developing conventional wisdom in this thread (as best I can tell from a quick skim of the last couple pages), so I invite those folks who may have a different evaluation of the class to review my work and see where it is that our judgments diverge. :-)
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Curious to work out my own thoughts on the Unchained Monk independent of the discussion going on here, I’ve completed a fairly thorough analysis of some benchmark builds. Reviewing my findings, I’m led to conclude that <the Unchained Monk is a successful class, and it may be fair to say (if my builds and numbers are approximately correct) that it is even a very successful class>.
This appears to contradict the developing conventional wisdom in this thread (as best I can tell from a quick skim of the last couple pages), so I invite those folks who may have a different evaluation of the class to review my work and see where it is that our judgments diverge. :-)
...If you say so.
Those DPR results are lackluster. 54 DPR at 11th level means you're taking 4 rounds to take down those CR 13 enemies, and 3 rounds for a CR 11. You're spending the time it should take for the whole fight to conclude just to take out one guy.
That's 1 or 2 rounds slower than an equivalent level Barbarian or Fighter could likely do it. You don't need to math out full builds for that, they simply have every damage boosting option you have, with more on top (especially assuming a TWFer build in comparison to the Unarmed Oona build...since you're using Dragon Style the Feat investment is roughly equal.).
Your numbers speak to a basic level of competence, yes, but calling it "very successful" is an exaggeration, by my reading.
I don't think there was ever any doubt the Unchained Monk was solid/usable, but the complaint is that it does not EXCEL like other classes. Not even with heavy optimization (as far as its purely class based abilities go. Ki Powers are just meh compared to Discoveries or Rage Powers).
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...If you say so.
Those DPR results are lackluster. 54 DPR at 11th level means you're taking 4 rounds to take down those CR 13 enemies, and 3 rounds for a CR 11. You're spending the time it should take for the whole fight to conclude just to take out one guy.
That's 1 or 2 rounds slower than an equivalent level Barbarian or Fighter could likely do it. You don't need to math out full builds for that, they simply have every damage boosting option you have, with more on top (especially assuming a TWFer build in comparison to the Unarmed Oona build...since you're using Dragon Style the Feat investment is roughly equal.).
But it's not. He actually built a Fighter with an equivalent level of optimization and his Monk does better than said Fighter.
Now, IMO, that's a rather low level of optimization, but as long as it's the same level, it's a valid comparison.