Bard. The best class?? inquiring minds seek thoughts.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

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After a large discussion with some RL friends of mine about the bard, they seemed to reach a consensus that it is an insanely powerful class if for no other reason than its customizability

Save perhaps a cleric/druid/wizard I feel like the bard is one of the strongest/best classes to choose from.

The customization offered to the bard through archetypes and other things can lead to some very powerful characters.

Even compared to a full wizard a bard can hold his own IMO.

What are some of your thoughts on the bard? Is it true, does the bard prance around singing "anything you can do I can do better" (particularly to Martial classes)

Or is the class overhyped?

Liberty's Edge

The bard is a very polarizing class.

Lot of Bard Love and a lot of Bard Hate.

Personally, I'm a fan of the bard. I like that the class can cover all the bases to some degree, and frankly Bardic Knowledge is insanely useful in any campaign where the DM actually uses Knowledge Checks.

And hey, if you can't get behind the guy standing around and singing, go with the Achaeologist archetype!


Magic 8-ball says: Yes.


While they are not as silly as they were in 3.5, I am a major fan of bards.


Bards are good because they're not only the jack-of-all-trades, they're the COMPETENT jack-of-all-trades

You not only have 3/4 bab and 6th level casting, you also have a bunch of other goodies not only for yourself but for your party too in the form of bardic performance

With that, you have 6 ranks. Doesn't seem like much because bard is Charisma based, but with versatile performance and the fact you'll be putting skills into some kind of performance, you can easily double the actual amount of skill ranks you get, along with being able to key them all off charisma.

For extra cheese, you can get the pageant of the peacock masterpiece and literally break reality by lying. Clarification, you can use bluff in place of any int-based skill check, including knowledge checks. Got 0 ranks in arcana and fighting a dragon? Just tell a lie about how you were raised by a dragon and know all their weaknesses and boom, now you do.


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I'll get back to you in 18 months after my groups all-bard campaign is over.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I personally think that the Skald is a bit more powerful than the bard while still holding much of its versatility. The Alchemist can also be customized to do pretty much anything. Overall I prefer the two of them to the Bard, but I do love me some Bards!


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And as long as the Wizard, Cleric, Shaman, Oracle, and Arcanist exist, or even the Sorcerer, Druid, and Witch, the Bard will never come close to being "The Best class".

Even so long as the Summoner exists, Bard will not even be "The Best 6th-level spellcasting class", either.

Bards are right around the middle - they're a very solid class overall, with good spells, good abilities, good HP/BAB, but they're not overpowering.

Bard is kind of the litmus test for Pathfinder - if a class is about in-line for power with the Bard, then it's a well-balanced class. Most of the classes, even many of the Martials, seem to fall in line with it, with the 9 classes above being the ones that really stand out as being noticeably more-powerful than the Bard.

Silver Crusade

1. IMO a druid Is far more powerful than a wizard. At any level.

2same as 1 but for cleric.

3. I feel like the bard Is not only more powerful than a wizard but would easily beat one.

I also feel shaman s and oracles are far fat overestimated.


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rorek55 wrote:
3. I feel like the bard Is not only more powerful than a wizard but would easily beat one.

I can't tell if you're trolling or are serious.

If you're trolling, stop.

If you're not, you are adorable.


Bard was by far my favorite class until the Alchemist came along. The great thing about the bard is not only do they do so many things well, but they make everybody else better at what they do.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
3. I feel like the bard Is not only more powerful than a wizard but would easily beat one.

I can't tell if you're trolling or are serious.

If you're trolling, stop.

If you're not, you are adorable.

You know off the cuff it seems unlikely but the bard has a lot of stuff going for him in this case, including something wizards usually lack... finishing power.

In a random one off the bard of equal level has a good to great chance of winning.

In a "prepared" or reoccurring situation I would agree things favor the wizard.


Abraham spalding wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
3. I feel like the bard Is not only more powerful than a wizard but would easily beat one.

I can't tell if you're trolling or are serious.

If you're trolling, stop.

If you're not, you are adorable.

You know off the cuff it seems unlikely but the bard has a lot of stuff going for him in this case, including something wizards usually lack... finishing power.

In a random one off the bard of equal level has a good to great chance of winning.

In a "prepared" or reoccurring situation I would agree things favor the wizard.

That's going to depend very much on the levels.

At low levels, yeah, probably (though if the Wizard lands a Color Spray, a couple crossbow bolts aimed at flat-footed can end things just fine).

Come the mid-levels, I'd call "Flesh to Stone, you're my new hat rack" good finishing power.


Abraham spalding wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
3. I feel like the bard Is not only more powerful than a wizard but would easily beat one.

I can't tell if you're trolling or are serious.

If you're trolling, stop.

If you're not, you are adorable.

You know off the cuff it seems unlikely but the bard has a lot of stuff going for him in this case, including something wizards usually lack... finishing power.

In a random one off the bard of equal level has a good to great chance of winning.

In a "prepared" or reoccurring situation I would agree things favor the wizard.

That also greatly depends on general lvl too. 20th lvl bard vs 20th lvl wizard? Sorry, that bard is worse than dead, he's a soul bound magic bauble for the wizard's little daughter.

Lvl 1? Yeah bard owns the wizard pretty handily. Lvl 11, when the wizard has 6th lvl spells and the bard has 4th, is when the wizard really starts to pull ahead imo.


kestral287 wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
3. I feel like the bard Is not only more powerful than a wizard but would easily beat one.

I can't tell if you're trolling or are serious.

If you're trolling, stop.

If you're not, you are adorable.

You know off the cuff it seems unlikely but the bard has a lot of stuff going for him in this case, including something wizards usually lack... finishing power.

In a random one off the bard of equal level has a good to great chance of winning.

In a "prepared" or reoccurring situation I would agree things favor the wizard.

That's going to depend very much on the levels.

At low levels, yeah, probably (though if the Wizard lands a Color Spray, a couple crossbow bolts aimed at flat-footed can end things just fine).

Come the mid-levels, I'd call "Flesh to Stone, you're my new hat rack" good finishing power.

Honestly the flesh to stone is by no means a guarantee to work for the wizard. The bard at the same level has multiple quick ways to get huge bonuses to his fortitude save and have free rerolls. The bard has a couple of methods of shutting down a 'random wizard' as well, for example silence -- a metamagic rod of silent spell is not a regular piece of equipment, nor is having the feat common. Moving is an easy way to leave the aura normally but there are plenty of ways to "Stick" something to a person in such a way as to make them take the spell with them.

Again this is not to say that the bard winning is in anyway a surefire bet, but at all levels bards tend to have the tools to cause them to punch above their perceived weight.

The biggest time the wizard really gets a good pull ahead is when he has mind blank due to the large number of enchantment spells on the bard's list.

Silver Crusade

Bard-

Will likely be able to get the jump on any wizard through disguise, (mundane) bluff, stealth, and some spells.

Bard wins.

Bard- through diplomacy gets others (including another level 20 wizard) to find and slay said wizard for him

Victory- bard.

Bard- random encounter 1v1 say, level 15. The wizard may have a COUPLE spells up, he wasn't particularly excepting trouble (nor the bard) but I would be willing to give the wizard a few -insert hour/level spells here-

Still say bard, either the wizard teleports away, or most likely loses to a class that needs little prep time and has a good will save. (Who, also has SoS spells)

Straight up fight with equal preparation time? Realistically it was all a clever bluff by the bard, a trap to get the wizard. However let's a assume pure 1v1. Depending on gear the bard could still potentially win. Though I agree an arena style combat would favor the wizard.

Silver Crusade

The above being said, my group was more focused on the fact that, out of every class. Bard is really one of the fee that could be taken by each player, built differently and succeed with possibly the least amount of problems

An all bard party can do most anything they need.. At any level.


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Bards are probably the most well-balanced class in the whole game!

It's nowhere near as powerful as full-caster that know what he's doing... Nor is it nearly as limited as most martial classes are.


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After thorough calculations, examining all angles through a Monte Carlo simulation, I have determined that the Bard would win 100% of the time.

Source


rorek55 wrote:

Bard-

Will likely be able to get the jump on any wizard through disguise, (mundane) bluff, stealth, and some spells.

Bard wins.

Diviner Wizard always acts in Surprise and has a better initiative count. He gets the first shot off. Bard advantage gone, and if we're calling the first shot a win Bard loses.

rorek55 wrote:

Bard- through diplomacy gets others (including another level 20 wizard) to find and slay said wizard for him

Victory- bard.

Wizard uses Dominate Person/Monster for the same result, except that the Dominate has at least a one in twenty shot at working, and good luck beating the Sense Motive of a level 20 character unless you're actually of respectable level yourself.

Bard victory gone.

rorek55 wrote:

Bard- random encounter 1v1 say, level 15. The wizard may have a COUPLE spells up, he wasn't particularly excepting trouble (nor the bard) but I would be willing to give the wizard a few -insert hour/level spells here-

Still say bard, either the wizard teleports away, or most likely loses to a class that needs little prep time and has a good will save. (Who, also has SoS spells)

Diviner wins initiative and acts in the surprise round. If he wants to teleport away, he does it. If he wants to fight, you need more than a good Will save to fight a level 15 Wizard.

For example: the argument was made that the Bard has "multiple quick ways to up his Fort save". We'll assume that that's true-- though I'd love to know what those actually are. Under a scenario where neither one has prep time, the Bard doesn't have those "quick" ways up.

Quickened Enervation to drop saves into Persistent Flesh to Stone. A new hat rack for the Wizard.

rorek55 wrote:
Straight up fight with equal preparation time? Realistically it was all a clever bluff by the bard, a trap to get the wizard. However let's a assume pure 1v1. Depending on gear the bard could still potentially win. Though I agree an arena style combat would favor the wizard.

How you "trap" a character that goes first virtually by definition and can teleport away from anything he doesn't like is beyond me, unless we assume the Wizard is an idiot. If the Wizard is assumed to be stupid, assuming the Bard to be smart creates a false advantage to the Bard.

Otherwise, see the last point.


Contingency alone means that the Wizard at lv11 is going to absolutely wreck the Bard.

Setting the trigger requirements to "as soon as initiative is rolled" means that, even before Initiative is rolled, the Wizard gets to fire off a free Displacemet, Invisibility Sphere, Cloak of Winds

Starting at 12th level, Greater Invisiblity, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Dimension Door, Black Tentacles become options for putting a Contingency on.

The Contingency spell lasts for days per level on end, meaning that he has to set up a Contingency spell perhaps once per week or less.

Wizards with 6th level spells and no Contingency active should always keep 2 slots open - one for Contingency and one for a lower-level spell that you want to attach to the Contingency; spend 40 mintues total before resting for the night, preparing Contingency and the contingent spell, and then 10 minutes casting Contingency.

---

Even back at 7th level, Wizards gain 4th level spells while Bards have only 3rd. So those spells mentioned above - Stoneskin, Black Tentacles, Greater Invisibility - are already available to the Wizard.

Oh, and let's not forget Lesser Sphere of Invulnerability, which is going to mean that ALL the Bard's spells stop working once he gets within 10ft of the Wizard - so much for buffing and running in, then. The Bard is going to have to wait for 10th level before getting 4th level spells which can actually penetrate the Orb, at which point the Wizard has 5th level spells and makes life even MORE of a nightmare for the Bard. And if the Bard takes a turn to cast Dispel on the Sphere, that's another turn he isn't killing the Wizard, and the Wizard can just up another spell right after.

---

Before that, at 5th, Wizards gain 3rd-level spells while Bards only have second, which means that the Bard is going to have to go first or else get smacked with a Ray of Exhaustion; Wizards also have Dispel Magic at their ready at lv5, which is much more than a Bard can say, and will generally mess a Bard's plans up.

---

Basically, the moment the Bard and Wizard hit lv3, the Bard starts lagging behind - fewer spells and weaker spells, with a smaller spell list. It only gets worse from there.


I love bards - it's my favourite class - though I certainly don't think they're overpowered, or anywhere near the strongest class.

I'd love to see some folks draw up their best builds for bard and wizard and hold a public duel in a PbP thread :)


Contingency scroll is available to bards at level 10.


littlehewy wrote:

I love bards - it's my favourite class - though I certainly don't think they're overpowered, or anywhere near the strongest class.

I'd love to see some folks draw up their best builds for bard and wizard and hold a public duel in a PbP thread :)

You'd need to establish the terms a lot more firmly.

Abraham spalding wrote:
Contingency scroll is available to bards at level 10.

And Wizards at seven. Contingent Scroll is also hours/lvl, so it's not nearly as good: we can't realistically assume it's always up.


kestral287 wrote:
littlehewy wrote:

I love bards - it's my favourite class - though I certainly don't think they're overpowered, or anywhere near the strongest class.

I'd love to see some folks draw up their best builds for bard and wizard and hold a public duel in a PbP thread :)

You'd need to establish the terms a lot more firmly.

It was a random fancy, not a fully-fledged proposal...


It would be interesting, to be honest.

Past experience says it's a huge pain though. The last time something like this cropped up was "Level 20/Tier 10 Martial vs. Level 20 Wizard". All the martials didn't show, at least some of which as some form of boycott against the terms of the duel-- I believe the major one was "All Pazio, no third party".

So... probably not realistic. But it would be awesome to establish terms and actually get run.


Agreed -- I'm not positive on the outcome and seven different builds by seven different people played seven different ways could give infinite results.

As such I would say it would be more of something to run through a super computer simulation program rather than trying to run as people.


I like the bard but he is not winning this duel. The wizard/sorcerer can bring in opponents the bard is likely to die against.


So, Rise of the Rune Lords and I decided to play the Arcane duelist version of the Bard. We are on the way to Magnimar, when the GM throws some wandering monsters in (Harpies). GM says they are singing and the first thing I think of, being a Bard and all is Counter Song. Then I remember I am forgetting something. Yep, my AD replaced that! We survived, but it wasn't by my help! :D

Bards are still good though.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Agreed -- I'm not positive on the outcome and seven different builds by seven different people played seven different ways could give infinite results.

Just one really. A level 20 Bard that can beat Arkalion, Ruler of the Grand Cycle (especially if I get to take the gloves off) does not exist.

Though I would need a different body for the challenge.


The OP is valid in its original point; the Bard is one of the most customizable classes in the game. Different Bards can function as entirely different characters, to degrees well beyond what most other classes can pull off.

And that does make it one of the 'best' classes, in a lot of ways. But for raw power, it's not beating an A-Game Wizard past the low levels.


A bard is absolutely the best class... to balance around. They are versatile, useful in all situations, and have archetypes to cover every party role. Also, you can play a traveling band.

I wouldn't have said they're great solo duelists though. Maybe some archetypes but not the class as a whole.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

i detect trolling

bard is my favorite class but if a GM throws a lone wizard at my bard with equal level, the bard will fire the highest escape enabling spell he has...

At high levels how can you even hope to take on a guy that has permanency, contingency and probably a few clones lying around?

Silver Crusade

kestral287 wrote:

It would be interesting, to be honest.

Past experience says it's a huge pain though. The last time something like this cropped up was "Level 20/Tier 10 Martial vs. Level 20 Wizard". All the martials didn't show, at least some of which as some form of boycott against the terms of the duel-- I believe the major one was "All Pazio, no third party".

So... probably not realistic. But it would be awesome to establish terms and actually get run.

I'd give it to the martials here... Mythic is broken.

Silver Crusade

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

i detect trolling

bard is my favorite class but if a GM throws a lone wizard at my bard with equal level, the bard will fire the highest escape enabling spell he has...

At high levels how can you even hope to take on a guy that has permanency, contingency and probably a few clones lying around?

at high levels... you have access to those as well. scrolls are quite handy.

I see a wizard at every sessions I've been to, (some of which played upwards of level 18) and, while powerful, never saw the things this board is ZOMGing about. That said, I've only been playing for about 6-8 years. And it's quite possible the many wizards I've seen were either to low level, or not "masterful" with the class itself.

Silver Crusade

kestral287 wrote:
rorek55 wrote:

Bard-

Will likely be able to get the jump on any wizard through disguise, (mundane) bluff, stealth, and some spells.

Bard wins.

Diviner Wizard always acts in Surprise and has a better initiative count. He gets the first shot off. Bard advantage gone, and if we're calling the first shot a win Bard loses.

and.. what happens when he isn't a diviner? but a conjurer, or a admixture, or any of the others?
Victory- bard.

rorek55 wrote:

Bard- through diplomacy gets others (including another level 20 wizard) to find and slay said wizard for him

Wizard uses Dominate Person/Monster for the same result, except that the Dominate has at least a one in twenty shot at working, and good luck beating the Sense Motive of a level 20 character unless you're actually of respectable level yourself.

If your wizard can survive a hit party of level 20s, + a level 20 enemy wizard. Dang. This is probably the most unpredictable one in the end.

Also, at 20.. bluff is- 20+20(glib spell)+10 (cha)+3(class skill) base of 53... taking 10, (or even a 20) for 63-73 bluff... good luck beating that.

rorek55 wrote:

Bard- random encounter 1v1 say, level 15. The wizard may have a COUPLE spells up, he wasn't particularly excepting trouble (nor the bard) but I would be willing to give the wizard a few -insert hour/level spells here-

Still say bard, either the wizard teleports away, or most likely loses to a class that needs little prep time and has a good will save. (Who, also has SoS spells)

Diviner wins initiative and acts in the surprise round. If he wants to teleport away, he does it. If he wants to fight, you need more than a good Will save to fight a level 15 Wizard.

Again, if its a diviner yeah, (also, SoS spells CAN FAIL), any other caster is actually most likely losing the initiative, even if the diviner wins and throws out a SoS spell, what if it fails?

deadly performance bard DC is easily, DC 30 will. (10+10+10(cha)) Which the wizard will be watching as a "performance" due to failing this sense motive check against the 60+ bluff. before any initiative rolls are even made.

For example: the argument was made that the Bard has "multiple quick ways to up his Fort save". We'll assume that that's true-- though I'd love to know what those actually are. Under a scenario where neither one has prep time, the Bard doesn't have those "quick" ways up.

Quickened Enervation to drop saves into Persistent Flesh to Stone. A new hat rack for the Wizard.

rorek55 wrote:
Straight up fight with equal preparation time? Realistically it was all a clever bluff by the bard, a trap to get the wizard. However let's a assume pure 1v1. Depending on gear the bard could still potentially win. Though I agree an arena style combat would favor the
...


rorek55 wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

i detect trolling

bard is my favorite class but if a GM throws a lone wizard at my bard with equal level, the bard will fire the highest escape enabling spell he has...

At high levels how can you even hope to take on a guy that has permanency, contingency and probably a few clones lying around?

at high levels... you have access to those as well. scrolls are quite handy.

I see a wizard at every sessions I've been to, (some of which played upwards of level 18) and, while powerful, never saw the things this board is ZOMGing about. That said, I've only been playing for about 6-8 years. And it's quite possible the many wizards I've seen were either to low level, or not "masterful" with the class itself.

You cant' assume you will have those scrolls, and even so getting them out, and using them take up more of your actions. Some spells also depend on caster level and or saves. You can increase caster level by paying more money but the saves are stuck.

A "player" or "GM" might not be masterful, but bear in mind we are not assuming low system mastery. We are just talking bout the class itself, and which is stronger in a duel. I can take a warrior (NPC class) and very likely kill a noob playing a caster. That does not mean warriors and full casters are an even match. It just means the other guy had no idea what he was doing.


The bard is a great class. The idea of it being the "best," in terms of most powerful, I disagree with.

It's one of my favorites, to be sure. It's very flexible in what it can be: a caster, a martial character, a support character, a skill monkey, a debuffer, etc. Its archetypes give it a lot of potential, as does its varied skill selection.

However, there's a reason I stop leveling in my campaigns at level 10-12. Beyond that point the full casters are simply too much, and many will argue they're too much past 6 or 7 or so.


One of the ideas being thrown around concerning the Bard vs Wizards is that Bards spontaneously cast spells.

Mind you, Wizards have 90% or more of the spells on the Bard's Spell List, most importantly all the buff spells, AND higher spells AND more spells per given level except for when the Bard FINALLY gains 5 spells per level per day (which happens much later than when a Wizards hits 4)...

But, okay, spontaneity. I can understand that. Spamming Spells is really nice when you have JUST the right spell for the job, whereas a Wizard has to carefully load his gun and can't really learn back spells he lost.

The Bard doesn't need to worry about preparing the right spells (rather, he has to worry about KNOWING the right spells, which is far worse in practice, but eh, let's just go with it).

So let's compare another class - The Arcanist.

The Arcanist prepares his Spells Known every day from the same list as a Wizard and Spams them throughout the day like a Sorc. It's the best of both worlds of the Wizard and Sorcerer, and I personally LOVE the Arcanist, whereas I'm not a fan of the Wizard (it's more a matter of flavor than power - I will admit that the Wizard is likely STILL much more powerful than the Arcanist).

However, frankly, the Arcanist beats the ever-loving junk out of a Bard - why?

The Arcanist only needs 1 spell: Time Stop.

And what's better is that the Arcanist can take Metamagic Feats as Exploits, thus gaining Access to Spell Perfection very quickly.

Why Spell Perfection? Maximize Time Stop, baby!

Oh, look - you're facing off against a Bard! But I have no spells that coul- TIME STOP!!!

Okay, so, now I've got 5 turns to do stuff; too bad I still have no spells that could possibl- OH YEAH ARCANE RESERVOIR!!!!

Proceed to spend 5 rounds using Quick Study to trade out spells that aren't helping with spells that will win them the duel pretty much immediately.

Once that's done, have fun wreaking all kinds of hell.

For added fun, also have Preferred Spell, so you can cast Time Stop whenever you feel like it without having to prepare it.


To Rorek:

I'm honestly curious.

When did the Bard get a built-in Initiative booster that means he's going to beat a non-Diviner's Initiative? Why is that suddenly a valid assumption? Most Bards would actually lose that one since they have incentive to buff physical stats other than Dex and are inherently more MAD. Straight Caster/Performer Bards should be matching and no better.

But really... if we're calling it a "Wizard vs. Bard" fight and the point is "Well, the Bard can beat all but the best Wizards"... that sounds like a loss to the Bard.

As for SoS can fail... you're right. It's entirely possible. And yet, Deadly Performance is treated as a kill shot. Despite having a bigger hill to fight up (Wizard actually has a good Will save), we can assume it works, but not the Wizard dropping Quickened Enervation to drop your saves by 2.5 on average and then a Persistent spell aimed at the Bard's worst save in order to force them to save twice?

And... Deadly Performance would definitely trigger combat. You are attempting to kill somebody. How is that not a combat act? Now, you might (should, in a lot of cases) get to go in the surprise round for it! But, well, Diviner. Seeing the future is fun.


chbgraphicarts wrote:


Why Spell Perfection? Maximize Time Stop, baby!

From Spell Perfection: "Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level."

Maximized Time Stop is 12th level.

I'll respond later with a more detailed explanation of why which one wins at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20 - if people are still posting in the thread in a few hours. It will operate on the assumption that they were ready for trouble, but not for each other, and are traveling only with companions they can produce entirely from their own abilities. No diplomancy or leadership - any creatures they have with them must serve because they were created/summoned. All buffs must last at least 8 hours for them to have it up before the fight.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Why Spell Perfection? Maximize Time Stop, baby!

That doesn't work.

Maximize rods do the trick, but are expensive.

Maximize Metamagic gems also work, but are too pricey to be using unless the situation is a dire emergency.


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Entirely 100% dependant on GM and player.

A good player of either class will stomp a weak one of the other class.

Equal system mastery and creativeness is a literal impossibility, as no two people are alike (the very fact they chose two different classes is merely one indication of this) so arguing that type of hypothetical is a waste of effort.

As for vs the monsters and not the other players you know, how you're supposed to be playing the game, the usefulness is entirely dependant on the GM and how s/he sets up encounters, availability of resources, etc.

The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning to realize that while some classes may edge out others in more situations than others, there is no real "best" class, and determination of that, or even superiority of any class over another cannot be universally declared, because they all have niche scenarios where they shine.


thegreenteagamer wrote:


The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning to realize that while some classes may edge out others in more situations than others, there is no real "best" class, and determination of that, or even superiority of any class over another cannot be universally declared, because they all have niche scenarios where they shine.

Except the rogue. The investigator is always better than the rogue at everything the rogue is good at.

I couldn't help myself, but at least I had enough self control to use my blatantly-trolling alias to finish the statement.

Silver Crusade

Delayed Blast Threadlock wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:


The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning to realize that while some classes may edge out others in more situations than others, there is no real "best" class, and determination of that, or even superiority of any class over another cannot be universally declared, because they all have niche scenarios where they shine.

Except the rogue. The investigator is always better than the rogue at everything the rogue is good at.

I couldn't help myself, but at least I had enough self control to use my blatantly-trolling alias to finish the statement.

nah, the rogue can get Sneak attack on every attack, the investigator can't ;) (other than that,,, yea)


rorek55 wrote:
Delayed Blast Threadlock wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:


The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning to realize that while some classes may edge out others in more situations than others, there is no real "best" class, and determination of that, or even superiority of any class over another cannot be universally declared, because they all have niche scenarios where they shine.

Except the rogue. The investigator is always better than the rogue at everything the rogue is good at.

I couldn't help myself, but at least I had enough self control to use my blatantly-trolling alias to finish the statement.

nah, the rogue can get Sneak attack on every attack, the investigator can't ;) (other than that,,, yea)

Studied Combat is strictly better than sneak attack. It's only 1d6 below sneak attack, but adds accuracy and is easier to set up as it doesn't require flanking or flat-footed. Ten hits @4d6 is better than five misses and five hits at 5d6. Trust me. Smarter folks than myself have done the math. I actually opened a whole can of worms by even bringing it up, but it's true. At literally everything the rogue can claim, whether it is precision combat, sneakiness, social interaction, survivability, using magic items, saving throws, hit points, BAB, available skill point pool (due to having two points less base, but being an int-focused class and the awesomeness that is inspiration) - flat-out everything the investigator wins. The only argument can be evasion, but damage-based reflex save spells are the least deadly attacks in the game, with non-damage based reflex saves, fort saves, will saves, and mundane attacks all more deadly...which is more than offset by the availability of alchemy extracts to supplement survivability.


thegreenteagamer wrote:
Equal system mastery and creativeness is a literal impossibility, as no two people are alike (the very fact they chose two different classes is merely one indication of this) so arguing that type of hypothetical is a waste of effort.

That doesn't make it an impossibility, it just means that you need the same player to build the Bard and the Wizard. Xp


rorek55 wrote:

Is it true, does the bard prance around singing "anything you can do I can do better" (particularly to Martial classes)

Or is the class overhyped?

No, it is not true, they don't sing "I can do better". They sing: "I can also do, just not as good as you. But I can do a lot of other things as well".

It's not overhyped, just by you and your friends.

rorek55 wrote:
nah, the rogue can get Sneak attack on every attack, the investigator can't.
rorek55 wrote:
I feel like the bard Is not only more powerful than a wizard but would easily beat one.

So much to learn.

rorek55 wrote:
Will likely be able to get the jump on any wizard... through diplomacy gets others (including another level 20 wizard) to find and slay said wizard for him

Say that to a divination wizard.

Wizards gets their spells MUCH faster. Doesn't matter that bards also gets a lot of good spells, they're several levels late.


kestral287 wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:
Equal system mastery and creativeness is a literal impossibility, as no two people are alike (the very fact they chose two different classes is merely one indication of this) so arguing that type of hypothetical is a waste of effort.
That doesn't make it an impossibility, it just means that you need the same player to build the Bard and the Wizard. Xp

I said player, not builder. It is not only the tools available, but the creative implementation of those tools as well. And you can't really play against yourself to your fullest ability, because you automatically know your own tactics and cannot suprise yourself or come up with plans that you yourself could not counter.

Silver Crusade

thegreenteagamer wrote:
rorek55 wrote:
Delayed Blast Threadlock wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:


The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning to realize that while some classes may edge out others in more situations than others, there is no real "best" class, and determination of that, or even superiority of any class over another cannot be universally declared, because they all have niche scenarios where they shine.

Except the rogue. The investigator is always better than the rogue at everything the rogue is good at.

I couldn't help myself, but at least I had enough self control to use my blatantly-trolling alias to finish the statement.

nah, the rogue can get Sneak attack on every attack, the investigator can't ;) (other than that,,, yea)
Studied Combat is strictly better than sneak attack. It's only 1d6 below sneak attack, but adds accuracy and is easier to set up as it doesn't require flanking or flat-footed. Ten hits @4d6 is better than five misses and five hits at 5d6. Trust me. Smarter folks than myself have done the math. I actually opened a whole can of worms by even bringing it up, but it's true. At literally everything the rogue can claim, whether it is precision combat, sneakiness, social interaction, survivability, using magic items, saving throws, hit points, BAB, available skill point pool (due to having two points less base, but being an int-focused class and the awesomeness that is inspiration) - flat-out everything the investigator wins. The only argument can be evasion, but damage-based reflex save spells are the least deadly attacks in the game, with non-damage based reflex saves, fort saves, will saves, and mundane attacks all more deadly...which is more than offset by the availability of alchemy extracts to supplement survivability.

You do realize the best you can do is 18d6 at 20. Studied target goes away immediately after you deal studied strike damage. It takes a swift to activate it. You do know this right? And you don't get it for flanking.

Also. Don't underestimate the blaster. I've seen one (at 20) with a 1 level dip in sorcerer hit for over 800 damage a turn (before saves)

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