In my home-brew campaign, I did limit spell-casters quite a bit. I made it really unattractive by it being a low-magic world, with no spells above 5th - unless you undergo and survive a Great Trial.
This time, I wanted to just be open to whatever they wanted to play. I trusted that if Paizo created these and tested them, they had to be okay, right? Right??
(I did limit races. No Drow or anything ridiculous. But he ran with Aasimar and Master Summoner, since those were 'allowed'.)
And I fully own that the GM has their part in controlling things. I guess I'm little stunned that the Master Summoner exists as a part of the official product!
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Otherwere: maybe it's just me, but if the situation was reversed (i.e. the DM is throwing a Master Summoner at us, which would be part of a party of other enemy NPCs) my PC would yell: "FIRE AT WILL ON THE BLASTED SUMMONER!!" Most of our party would pool all attacks on this guy until he stops summoning. You should perhaps give that player a warning about that (i.e. most enemy monsters will single you out as an immediate threat)
PS: you should also check the rules on what happens to summoned monsters after the PC falls unconscious... I don't quite remember. I know Summoner class has Eidolon-specific feats to allow the Eidolon to stick around after the master has fallen, but for the good old Summon Monster series of spells, not quite sure...
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When he summons, he may be recognized as the one doing it. Should he do it again, he looks like a worth while target, maybe even a priority.
It is not too much to.believe a bunch.of villains would carry protection from good potions. Not every mook but the leaders and some lieutenants would.
Consider keeping a box on hand designated for the eagles. A color coordinated set of dice. One blue or clear for the hover check, green attack and damage for the bite, red attack and damage die for 1st claw, pink pair for se ons claw. Could roll all at once. Might help speed gnu.gs up. As if the other players a actually want to roll those dice. They may prefer to analyze their time deciding what spell to cast on their turn or where to move to. Not having to pass the box to each play can save some time. If you do keep the eagle rolling split amonst players, make sure each player has N index cards with all the modifiers. Making those cards should be the smoners homework. Ask the Summoner to ha e a new index card read(different monster) every game. That could cut on some.of the bestiary page flipping.
The Summoner itself is rather squishy.
By RAW, your spells keep running after your death. Eidolons are summoned not by spells, but by a ritual that has it's own special limitations.
Consider keeping a box on hand designated for the eagles. A color coordinated set of dice. One blue or clear for the hover check, green attack and damage for the bite, red attack and damage die for 1st claw, pink pair for second claw. Could roll all at once. Might help speed gnu.gs up. As if the other players a actually want to roll those dice. They may prefer to analyze their time deciding what spell to cast on their turn or where to move to. Not having to pass the box to each play can save some time. If you do keep the eagle rolling split amongst players, make sure each player has N index cards with all the modifiers. Making those cards should be the summoner's homework. Ask the Summoner to ha e a new index card read(different monster) every game. That could cut on some.of the bestiary page flipping.
The Summoner itself is rather squishy.
Good suggestions! Thanks! I do plan on having the other players at the table roll for the summoned creatures. It will give them something active to do on his turn!
good stuff; also Magus
I found the magus to be far harder to learn how to employ properly, mostly due to tactics. He starts out as some guy who's worse than a rogue and who probably works better just spamming the Daze cantrip and using a reach weapon. Somewhere around 3rd level he finally comes online.
How about this:
Limit the number of summons the following way:
2 summon monster active from his spell-likes at levels 1-5.
3 summon monster active from his spell-likes at levels 6-10.
4 summon monster active from his spell-likes at levels 11-15.
5 summon monster active from his spell-likes at levels 15-20.
(note the limit is on spells active not number of creatures)
Change standar action summoning across the board.
Because standar action summoning is faster than normal, monsters are slow to act. They act at the beginning of the summoners next turn. They are not flat footed till then.
Maybe also say he can't grab evolved summons more than once per 5 levels.
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... But the bigger issue for me is how to handle a MS regardless of campaign. MOST people say: "Don't! Ban it!"
...
Well you see that a lot online, but I actually don’t hear it that much in person. Very few people I’ve met ban very much for being overpowered. Or if they do, they ban a whole bunch of stuff trying to make it feel like AD&D which is nearly impossible.
In my opinion, you are doing it best. Trying to figure out how to handle it without banning....
To get back to your question: this player has a knack for power-gaming. I don't think it is conscious and deliberate, but if I allow him to choose something he always homes in on something OP. ...
Well here is your issue. If someone likes to make powerful characters and is halfway good at it, he is going to be able to do it no matter what you ban.
I could get much more powerful with a druid. The animal companion would be more powerful than the master summoner’s eidolon, the druid would fight better than the master summoner, the druid is a better caster than the summoner, and he can summon many more creatures in a day than a master summoner. It gets even worse if I use the saurian shaman archtype.
For next campaign (or if this PC dies and is not recoverable) you might try a side conversation with the player. “You usually are very good at making powerful characters, but I think it is making some of the other players feel sidelined. Not saying don’t optimize, but maybe you could try optimizing starting with something that isn’t as powerful and seeing how good you can get that. Like an arcane trickster isn’t all that high on the power curve, but if you optimize it well, it should be in the same ballpark as the others. Or you could optimize something that makes the others strong so they don’t feel left out. Ex: buff casters or the halfling aid another specialists.” It might not have any result, but it is worth a try.
Personally, that is what I do as a player. I like to optimize more than most of the people I play with. But I try to start with something that my optimal version won't over shadow the others and/or it strengthens the others.
Otherwere: maybe it's just me, but if the situation was reversed (i.e. the DM is throwing a Master Summoner at us, which would be part of a party of other enemy NPCs) my PC would yell: "FIRE AT WILL ON THE BLASTED SUMMONER!!" Most of our party would pool all attacks on this guy until he stops summoning. ...
All of my players know that intelligent enemies will use tactics at least as clever as the PC’s. If the PC’s are smart enough to focus fire on the caster/summoner then intelligent opponents will do the same. Note: I wouldn’t expect all goblins to be that intelligent. But some of them should be. Especially after repeated exposure.
The goblin leader screams, "All you biters throw both vials at the funny looking poofter hiding in the back!" When 6+ vials of acid sail over toward the summoner he might get a bit scared.Plus I would say cowardly goblins might attack the squishy looking characters just because they look like less of a threat.
Note that focusing on a summoner is easier said than done. The ability to 5 foot step back and put 1d3+1 monsters between you and your enemies is quite strong.
I'm currently running RotRL Anniversary Edition with 5 players, one of whom wanted to play a Summoner. I don't really like the class myself, but he loves it, and I haven't seen it in play, so I said "okay".
Then he hits me with: Master Summoner archetype, which is rather broken. And, of course, he summons the Eagle, which is OP compared to the other creatures on the list of Summon Monster 1: 3 attacks, all at full +3; flight; 80' movement. PLUS, he got Augmented Summoning at lvl 2 (+4 STR & CON to summoned creatures). So his Eagle comes into play where he wants it positioned, deals 3 attacks doing 3-6 hp/per, and is absolutely shredding the goblins in the encounter.
I'm wondering: how do I reasonably counter a Master Summoner? Is there a guide somewhere on countering/dealing with Summoned Creatures?
I am really trying to not house-rule anything in this. I am using the AP to learn the Pathfinder mechanics better, and don't want to start making up rules just to counter his character.
They have now reached lvl 3, so I know he plans on dismissing his eidolon to free him up for multiple SLA summonings, all at 3 min durations. I don't want to unfairly counter his character by throwing in things specifically to counter him, but I have to do something. He's only 1 of 5 players, with a ranger, a slayer, a rogue, and a witch in the mix.
Right now, I am adding things like: nets for the goblins (to take down his eagles); more ranged attacks (short bows); tanglefoot bags and thunderstones. I'm thinking of adding a scroll of "Prot vs Good" as well, but that would be for only certain NPCs as the goblin chief couldn't use it.
They are at Thistletop for those who know the AP. They just cleared out the bramble tunnels in front of the keep, and will enter the keep this weekend.
Suggestions are welcome!
AP's don't deal with optimized characters well, and the master summoner is optimized out of the box, so you are going to have to rework encounters, make some house rules(or an agreement with the player), or not allow it.
PS: I have not ready any of the other post here yet.
So, to summarize my best choices so far:
increase enemy AC - even +1 will deflect another 5% of hits
nets; grapple; attacks to break his concentration (deafness is good with a 20% spell-failure with no active actions on my part)
ranged attacks
environment - mess up the viability of his summons
"Prot vs X" for some NPCs
reach weapons
AoE attacks - take out low hp eagles en masse!
focus fire on the Master Summoner
Fly checks for eagles to hover (30% failure, so only 1 attack plus AoO)
All reasonable and within my prerogative.
I really appreciate all the suggestions, folks! These really help!
(Off to work now, But I'll check back.)
Thanks, BretI! Yeah, I am making sure he knows he can't control his eagles. Plus they need to roll to Hover (easy for them, but not automatic) in order to stay airborne and attack. Otherwise, they have to move then attack, or attack then move (which opens up an AoO against them).I want to make sure I have this correctly too: an eagle (or any creature with multiple natural attacks) can't move and take all their attacks, right? That's a full-round action to take all 3 attacks?
Correct. He can make all of his attacks or move and make one attack, however Bret is wrong about not being able to summon the monster in air since it can fly already.
Fighting the mooks of a villain, he summons his eagles or whatever. The party engages a number of high hp foes who are potent up close, so the summoner will hang back.
Alert! There is an ambush upon the summoner, rangers (favored enemy the summoner's people) and barbarians attack the rear.
The master summoner is killed.
Now you are the master.
Also remember that the eagles will attack who they want to attack unless the player can control them, and that requires animal companion.
PS: That does not mean it attacks players. It just means the player can't choose enemy X.
I would say having a Master Summoner in a party of five is more of the problem than Master Summoner on its own.
Also remember that the eagles will attack who they want to attack unless the player can control them, and that requires animal companion.
PS: That does not mean it attacks players. It just means the player can't choose enemy X.
I'm pretty sure it requires an obscenely high DC on a handle animal check, with an action to fuel it.
It the summoner drops them in the right square, they'll attack the correct enemy. If you, as the GM, allow it, he can drop different birds in different squares, setting up a flank.
I like getting all tactical like that. Maybe your player does, too, Meester GM!
The summon spell states that they "attack your enemy to the best of their ability." It's not like having a natural animal on hand.I have questioned if summoned animals will even attack some creatures.
An animal companion needs to learn the the attack trick twice (see Handle Animal skill) in order to attack every type of creature. The argument could be made that a summoned creature would be restricted to just the list for the first attack trick. I'm still unsure if a push is required for that eagle to attack a fire elemental or other unnatural creature.
Yes.
Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.
So it is a question of if the best of their ability is just the normal attack trick, or if they are considered to have Attack x2. Would they attack swarms when they have no way to do any damage to the swarm? They are physically capable of attacking the individual creatures of the swarm, it just doesn't do enough to count as hurting the swarm.
I'm not certain how it was intended to work.
Also remember that the eagles will attack who they want to attack unless the player can control them, and that requires animal companion.
PS: That does not mean it attacks players. It just means the player can't choose enemy X.
I'm pretty sure it requires an obscenely high DC on a handle animal check, with an action to fuel it.
It the summoner drops them in the right square, they'll attack the correct enemy. If you, as the GM, allow it, he can drop different birds in different squares, setting up a flank.
I like getting all tactical like that. Maybe your player does, too, Meester GM!
It doesn't require animal companion nor wild empathy, Handle Animal skill should work fine.
It takes a DC 20 Handle Animal trick to cause a normal animal to perform a trick it hasn't been taught. Flank, Aid, Attack (for beasts of burden), etc.
I don't consider that obscenely high, at least not if it is a class skill and you have a good charisma -- both of which are the case for summoners.
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Oh, duh!! And as someone mentioned way early in this thread: smoke (or smoke sticks)! Obscure their vision, and that will help nullify some of his advantages.
Unless he can communicate with them, I feel the spell clearly states that the creature will go after his enemies. So they will attack the nearest, and move on from there, without regard for things like flanking, etc.
I can't believe Paizo thought that extending the duration by a factor of 10 wasn't broken!
I can't believe Paizo thought that extending the duration by a factor of 10 wasn't broken!
How so? I used a small earth elemental to help with a rescue after a mine cave-in the campaign I've been referencing. I couldn't have done that if it were a rd/level thing.
For combat purposes, almost everything's done in 6 rounds or less.
I can't believe Paizo thought that extending the duration by a factor of 10 wasn't broken!How so? I used a small earth elemental to help with a rescue after a mine cave-in the campaign I've been referencing. I couldn't have done that if it were a rd/level thing.
For combat purposes, almost everything's done in 6 rounds or less.
But YOU were restraining yourself from abusing the fact that you could summon more than 1. Having multiple summonings active would be a lot less OP if they were limited to the rounds/lvl rather than minutes/lvl of the Summoner.
Also remember that the eagles will attack who they want to attack unless the player can control them, and that requires animal companion.
PS: That does not mean it attacks players. It just means the player can't choose enemy X.
I'm pretty sure it requires an obscenely high DC on a handle animal check, with an action to fuel it.
It the summoner drops them in the right square, they'll attack the correct enemy. If you, as the GM, allow it, he can drop different birds in different squares, setting up a flank.
I like getting all tactical like that. Maybe your player does, too, Meester GM!
It doesn't require animal companion nor wild empathy, Handle Animal skill should work fine.
It takes a DC 20 Handle Animal trick to cause a normal animal to perform a trick it hasn't been taught. Flank, Aid, Attack (for beasts of burden), etc.
I don't consider that obscenely high, at least not if it is a class skill and you have a good charisma -- both of which are the case for summoners.
Its DC 25. 3rd level guy with maxed ranks, plus class skill, plus 18 charisma = +10 on the roll. We'll add +2 for a training whip just for giggles and make it +12. http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/handle-animal
Uh... no, a summoned eagle can start on the ground next to a target goblin and proceed to shish-kabob that goblin with its three attacks. No hover, flight or anything else necessary. At low levels, though, the range of the spell isn't too good, so you will need to stay within easy fighting distance. Nor do you need any Handle animal checks, languages or anything similar. The eagle will do what you want it to, so long as it doesn't have a choice. Once the first gobbo is dead, it's going to be pretty much random where it attacks next.
When dealing with summon-focused characters, it ia important to understand the restrictions they come with. Mostly, this means alignments for clerics (no casting spells opposed to their own or their god's alignments), and everyone has to consider the long casting times - you're not going to be much help unless your powers come online too late to help out. Considering that most combats are reduced to clean-up in round three at the latest, one round casting times are BRUTAL. There is mostly one way around it, Sacred Summons, which applies ONLY to creatures with the correct subtype, which doesn't include the celestial/fiendish animals. In fact, most alignments get only three creatures eligible for Sacred Summons over the nine levels of monster lists. Another campaign specific feat is Academae Graduate which has its own problems. Summon Evil Monster gets shorter casting times, unlike the Good and Neutral feats.
Summoners get their standard action summons, but as noted above, the primary caster classes can summon far more. Their nova capacity is really only a problem at very low levels.
As you get up in levels, the utility of almost all the possible summons drops quickly. To keep them relevant a little longer, you can use Augment Summoning and Superior Summons. The Summon Good Monster feats give you a few more Sacred Summons options - all in all, summoning creatures is feat intensive. The higher level you go, the less the available summons are going to do. Sure, you can bring in more creatures, but that, again, costs you TIME. Which we already established was the most vital resource of summoners everywhere.
How to counter a summoner? It's not as hard as you think. Hit fast. Give monsters decent AC and hp. Change the environment. Ranged weapons. Area spells. Cunning enemies focusing on the summoner. Indeed, ANY situation except letting the summoner stay protected in the back and have lots of time to flood the battlefield works.
Oh, and by the way, the one truly scary summons is the lantern archon. Odd that nobody mentioned that yet.
But YOU were restraining yourself from abusing the fact that you could summon more than 1. Having multiple summonings active would be a lot less OP if they were limited to the rounds/lvl rather than minutes/lvl of the Summoner.
I can't believe Paizo thought that extending the duration by a factor of 10 wasn't broken!How so? I used a small earth elemental to help with a rescue after a mine cave-in the campaign I've been referencing. I couldn't have done that if it were a rd/level thing.
For combat purposes, almost everything's done in 6 rounds or less.
Not in that case. It was a mine cave in. Okay, so I summon 3 to look for trapped miners and help dig them out. How does that hamper anything?
My main point is that the extra time doesn't do much unless you're committing them to an out of combat role. Most combats are over and done in about 5 rounds.
Otherwhere: without addressing the power level of the master summoner, I would point out the AP you're playing (RotRL) is designed as written for 4 players with 15 point buys. If you haven't upped the power level of the "monsters," your players are going to be sailing through regardless of class (since I believe you have 5 players with unknown point buy.) It could be your summoner is the most flashy pc so he looks like the trouble but the real trouble is the NPC's aren't tough enough. (Tangent: there's a Rise forum out here where you can find a lot of help - community created material, experienced GM's who have or are running the AP, etc. May find some help on how to adjust the AP for 5 pc's there.)
Are your players having fun? Are any of them complaining or frustrated? If everyone's having fun, who cares? If he's hogging the spotlight too often or crowding out other pc's from acting, then yes you should do something. But if he's using his eagles to mow down the goblins, just throw a few more in there so there are enough for everyone!
The AP in question has several options for survivors of one battle to fight the pc's again: That ugly dog over there, he's what one that called all them awful birds! Kill him!
RotRL Spoiler Ahead
Also don't lose sight of other campaign options for pressing him without house-ruling or nerfing his character. Example: he's the closest thing the group has to an arcane caster (if I followed the thread correctly.) It looks real awesome right now for him to plow every feat and power into summoning but that makes him a one trick pony. Sounds good until a situation arises where summoning doesn't work and then he's useless - other characters are harder to thwart in that way or make up for combat 1-dimensionality with skill or other out of combat roles. An arcane caster should be defined by flexibility (see some of ElterAgo's posts above) Don't enable his single-mindedness by dropping magic items that reward it (omit wands and scrolls until he clues up, remind him that maybe he should make some of his own items for situations where summoning doesn't work.) It might take only one or two situations like that for him to diversify. You could also remind him this is a campaign the group is going to face a lot of different challenges and throwing out a horde is not going to solve them all.
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Oh, and by the way, the one truly scary summons is the lantern archon. Odd that nobody mentioned that yet.
Ugh! Yeah - I'm still dealing with him at just lvl 3, and have to let him know he can't summon Fauns. I need to research the others on the list. Any opinions on the Grig or Pseudodragon?
Lantern Archons will be the next pain when he gets there.
(sigh) I may need to ban the Summon Good Monster list, and only allow it to add the Diehard feat to his celestial creatures.
Man - this archetype is looking more and more unattractive as a GM.
Add running away! Goblins are plenty fast, can setup a simple pit trap, and can stymie eagles by closing the door.
Otherwhere: without addressing the power level of the master summoner, I would point out the AP you're playing (RotRL) is designed as written for 4 players with 15 point buys. If you haven't upped the power level of the "monsters," your players are going to be sailing through regardless of class (since I believe you have 5 players with unknown point buy.) It could be your summoner is the most flashy pc so he looks like the trouble but the real trouble is the NPC's aren't tough enough. (Tangent: there's a Rise forum out here where you can find a lot of help - community created material, experienced GM's who have or are running the AP, etc. May find some help on how to adjust the AP for 5 pc's there.)
Are your players having fun? Are any of them complaining or frustrated? If everyone's having fun, who cares? If he's hogging the spotlight too often or crowding out other pc's from acting, then yes you should do something. But if he's using his eagles to mow down the goblins, just throw a few more in there so there are enough for everyone!
The AP in question has several options for survivors of one battle to fight the pc's again: That ugly dog over there, he's what one that called all them awful birds! Kill him!
RotRL Spoiler Ahead ** spoiler omitted **
Also don't lose sight of other campaign options for pressing him without house-ruling or nerfing his character. Example: he's the closest thing the group has to an arcane caster (if I followed the thread correctly.) It looks real awesome right now for him to plow every feat and power into summoning but that makes him a one trick pony. Sounds good until a situation arises where summoning doesn't work and then he's useless - other characters are harder to thwart in that way or make up for combat 1-dimensionality with skill or other out of combat roles. An arcane caster should be defined by flexibility (see some of ElterAgo's posts above) Don't enable...
Good points. And they are having fun, but we've only played 3 sessions so far. Now that the MS is 3rd lvl, I feel we're going to see that dynamic change. Unless I stay on top of him and keep things challenging for all of them.
And I did up the HPs and added a few extra gobbos to the encounters. The group has taken some hits. The rogue was knocked into negative HPs during the last session.
And the point of my post was so that I could avoid nerfing (or banning) his character. So, again, I appreciate all the suggestions that don't rely on that.
But YOU were restraining yourself from abusing the fact that you could summon more than 1. Having multiple summonings active would be a lot less OP if they were limited to the rounds/lvl rather than minutes/lvl of the Summoner.
I can't believe Paizo thought that extending the duration by a factor of 10 wasn't broken!How so? I used a small earth elemental to help with a rescue after a mine cave-in the campaign I've been referencing. I couldn't have done that if it were a rd/level thing.
For combat purposes, almost everything's done in 6 rounds or less.
Not in that case. It was a mine cave in. Okay, so I summon 3 to look for trapped miners and help dig them out. How does that hamper anything?
My main point is that the extra time doesn't do much unless you're committing them to an out of combat role. Most combats are over and done in about 5 rounds.
"Most combats are over and done in about 5 rounds." That, I think, is actually the trouble. Since each combat lasts only a few rounds, a summon spell with normal rd/level duration only lasts one fight. But if it's min/level, the summoned creatures can be used in multiple fights. That changes their effectiveness pretty dramatically.
Something that might be interesting would be running with the fact that if a creature summoned by a summon spell is killed, it can't be re-summoned for 24 hours. You could extrapolate that to "if all of your eagles from this casting go down, you can't summon eagles again until tomorrow". Could encourage either diversification or being more cautious with summons.
Let's just say this: If he summons a grig, he can get it to cast entangle, but it will have less effect and take longer to do than if he simply cast entangle himself. The pseudodragon has no reach, so needs to be in someone's square, and though its Stealth is absurd and it has a decent poison attack, it's not what I would worry too much about as GM. Fauns have sleep DC 14, can be upped to 16, but it's just as limited as the spell.
Elementals are pretty decent at low levels, but that passes faster than you'd think. Flooding the place with earth elementals is not tactically relevant for long.
Aurochs are okay. The big cats are wonderful (dire tiger in particular). Bralani azatas with their lightning bolts are good. But lantern archons remain relevant for a long, long time.
I don't think so, really... Using adaptive tactics, changing situations and fast combats is a valid style for everyone, it just happens to be one that hits the summoner hard. The lantern archon is scary because it has a light ray touch attack that passes through DR. Remove its ability to pass through DR and you'll find the dynamics around it change, if it is a problem. See, the damage isn't that impressive anyway.
Oh, and by the way, the one truly scary summons is the lantern archon. Odd that nobody mentioned that yet.
But lantern archons remain relevant for a long, long time.
Ugh! Yeah - I'm still dealing with him at just lvl 3, and have to let him know he can't summon Fauns. I need to research the others on the list. Any opinions on the Grig or Pseudodragon? <snip>(sigh) I may need to ban the Summon Good Monster list, and only allow it to add the Diehard feat to his celestial creatures.
Hahahahahahahahaha... ROFL
Dudes, if he was REALLY looking for scary, always relevant LOW level summons, he'd have taken Summon Neutral Monsters and would summon stirges every round. By 5th level, that's 1d4+2 stirges. They each have a touch attack that drain 1 con. That's 1d4+2 con per/round/casting, no save...
Thing is, that happens with one creature. Once they did their attack, anyone else they attack gets an AoO against them, which should kill them handily at level 5+. Yes, touch attacks hit most of the time, yes, Con damage is scary, but all in all? 1d4+2 Con damage means 4-5 Con, meaning around 2 hp/HD of the target in damage. For a d8 HD monster, that is a bit less than half its hp. Can be powerful, but generally situational.
All of that said, banning the class is a LOT easier than doing all the work necessary to keep Mr. Master from annoying and overshadowing everyone else, clogging and bogging down the combat sequence, and being too powerful at early levels. I don't like banning classes either, it feels like a cop-out, but sometimes you gotta just look at it and say, "why am I running myself ragged to keep this game interesting and fun and challenging for EVERYONE when it's all about this ONE square peg?"
Banning the archetype would likely be enough, but all it actually does is cause that player to switch to the next high-power build. In my experience those that want to dominate will find a build that allows them to do so.
Thing is, that happens with one creature. Once they did their attack, anyone else they attack gets an AoO against them, which should kill them handily at level 5+. Yes, touch attacks hit most of the time, yes, Con damage is scary, but all in all? 1d4+2 Con damage means 4-5 Con, meaning around 2 hp/HD of the target in damage. For a d8 HD monster, that is a bit less than half its hp. Can be powerful, but generally situational.
Ahhhh... You know that each one can drain 4 con right? One creature loses 1d4+4 per round until it adds up to 4d4+16 OR it wastes it's attacks killing them which isn't attacks against the party.
Even if they have drained every con that can, they can still eat up AoO. I'm sure the melee people wouldn't mind having the second giant waste it's reach AoO on stirges...
So 20-32 con lose and/or 1d4+2 AoO/attacks negated for one summons. Some creatures can ignore basic damage but any creature with a con isn't going to sit around and watch it's con vanish.
Rather than ban the summoner, I would take it as a challenge. There are some aspects that are hard to deal with, but I don't see any form of summoner, excepting perhaps the Synthesist, as particularly overpowered.
First, dirty tactics. Eagles are Small creatures with a CMD of 11, and no ranged attacks, meaning that a gang of goblins should have no problem readying actions and grappling them. Also, with AC 16, if the goblins fight defensively, the eagles' multiple attacks are going to become far less formidable. Have the goblins bunch together and ready their attacks to go off together; now the eagle is going to be charging and making a single attack, while being subjected to multiple attacks by goblins.
Second, customize. If non-standard classes are coming into the game, it makes sense to jazz up the encounters. A 2nd level goblin adept should no problem wasting them with burning hands. They also have access to the sleep spell, which has a sufficient range to be used pre-emptively against the eagles. You can also insert a goblin fighter with a longspear into the groups, using Power Attack. With 5 to 7 hit points, the eagles aren't going to provide much of a threat. Even standard goblins can be armed with reach weapons, or swap out their feat for Deadly Aim. Or goblin ambushers with Blind-Fight. How about a goblin ranger with favored enemy (animals)?
And there are a lot of things summoners aren't good at fighting. Shadows spring to mind, or anything with unusual DR.
If you are new to GM'ing and just trying to learn the game I would advise you to not allow the MS this time around.
If your player is creative things are going to get more annoying for you at higher levels.
Throw Master Summoners back at him.
I don't think he wants to do that for every fight. He seems to be looking for a more general solution.
Throw Master Summoners back at him.
Or for that matter, throw in a goblin shaman with an advanced template; make him toss in a summoned mob or a beefy familiar with some damage resistance (eagle vs imp = imp wins). if he targets the goblin with summons, dispel magic (or use the protection circle previously mentioned). there are a few ways to counter summoners - not the least of which, that he himself is weak, and if he does drop for some reason, the summons go away. They're only OP if you don't know the counters. (I.e, enemy rogue. Most summoners panic when they start getting icepicked. Even one or two encounters that end with him getting attacked will make him either reign in his own summons to protect him, or it will require the party to reassign their roles.
Overall, they're a better class for solo or 2- player games, but in a party of 4+ they're kinda just divas, hogging all the showtime to showcase their own uberness (which is actually not their uberness, but the zerg of outsiders and direbeasts they command).
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I can't believe Paizo thought that extending the duration by a factor of 10 wasn't broken!
It's not particularly broken. As others have said, most combats are over long before that duration comes up. And if PCs are looting and searching areas, the monsters will finish up their durations faster than you think. If they want to use them for multiple combats, they need to keep the pressure on and that probably undermines healing between combat as well as other buffs.
The main overpowered aspect of the master summoner for a PC really is being able to use the summon monster SLA concurrently. The main summoner can't and can't even do so with his eidolon around. I'm playing a summoner in Skull and Shackles and there are quite a few times I wish I had been able to do multiple SLA summons at the same time but have had to settle for sequential.
The master summoner has a role in PF but that role isn't right for every game. He's great for war-oriented campaigns since he can spam a lot of troops that the GM can deal with narratively rather than roll dice for and he's great as an enemy for PCs. But his summoning powers and how they work don't work with traditional 4-man dungeon-crawlng very well.
to correct myself - even in a low level encounter, a lvl3 goblin shaman could cast a lesser dispel, or a lvl3 rogue with a shortbow could sneak attack either him or the eagle or whatever his other summons are - the objective isn't to kill him for spite so much as to create at least the illusion of risk. He might survive the scrape, but if he gets blooded even once, everyone at the table will recognize an element of risk, and therefore challenge
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Thing is, that happens with one creature. Once they did their attack, anyone else they attack gets an AoO against them, which should kill them handily at level 5+. Yes, touch attacks hit most of the time, yes, Con damage is scary, but all in all? 1d4+2 Con damage means 4-5 Con, meaning around 2 hp/HD of the target in damage. For a d8 HD monster, that is a bit less than half its hp. Can be powerful, but generally situational.Ahhhh... You know that each one can drain 4 con right? One creature loses 1d4+4 per round until it adds up to 4d4+16 OR it wastes it's attacks killing them which isn't attacks against the party.
Even if they have drained every con that can, they can still eat up AoO. I'm sure the melee people wouldn't mind having the second giant waste it's reach AoO on stirges...
So 20-32 con lose and/or 1d4+2 AoO/attacks negated for one summons. Some creatures can ignore basic damage but any creature with a con isn't going to sit around and watch it's con vanish.
No, it's going to be 12-24 Con. Even that is if all of the stirges attack the same target, all hit (even touch attacks aren't automatic), the target isn't immune to ability damage and whatnot, and so on. The stirges can probably all start in the enemy's square. However, doing significant damage to one target after several rounds, that depends on a variety of factors to function, that can be mitigated actively by the target or his allies, using a level 3 spell? Sounds about right to me.
But YOU were restraining yourself from abusing the fact that you could summon more than 1. Having multiple summonings active would be a lot less OP if they were limited to the rounds/lvl rather than minutes/lvl of the Summoner.
I can't believe Paizo thought that extending the duration by a factor of 10 wasn't broken!How so? I used a small earth elemental to help with a rescue after a mine cave-in the campaign I've been referencing. I couldn't have done that if it were a rd/level thing.
For combat purposes, almost everything's done in 6 rounds or less.
Not in that case. It was a mine cave in. Okay, so I summon 3 to look for trapped miners and help dig them out. How does that hamper anything?
It makes you shine not only in combat but out of combat, too. If one class is too good in all aspects of the game that takes away from the other classes.
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No, it's going to be 12-24 Con. Even that is if all of the stirges attack the same target, all hit (even touch attacks aren't automatic), the target isn't immune to ability damage and whatnot, and so on. The stirges can probably all start in the enemy's square. However, doing significant damage to one target after several rounds, that depends on a variety of factors to function, that can be mitigated actively by the target or his allies, using a level 3 spell? Sounds about right to me.Thing is, that happens with one creature. Once they did their attack, anyone else they attack gets an AoO against them, which should kill them handily at level 5+. Yes, touch attacks hit most of the time, yes, Con damage is scary, but all in all? 1d4+2 Con damage means 4-5 Con, meaning around 2 hp/HD of the target in damage. For a d8 HD monster, that is a bit less than half its hp. Can be powerful, but generally situational.Ahhhh... You know that each one can drain 4 con right? One creature loses 1d4+4 per round until it adds up to 4d4+16 OR it wastes it's attacks killing them which isn't attacks against the party.
Even if they have drained every con that can, they can still eat up AoO. I'm sure the melee people wouldn't mind having the second giant waste it's reach AoO on stirges...
So 20-32 con lose and/or 1d4+2 AoO/attacks negated for one summons. Some creatures can ignore basic damage but any creature with a con isn't going to sit around and watch it's con vanish.
#1 Quibble over the amount of con loss, it's a lot bigger than the 4-5 you first said. (yeah I somehow got the 4 total con loss swapped with the 2 from the number of summoned)
#2 yes, they can roll a 1 I guess. Most things you'll target with them will be large+ with low dex/high natural armor. A roll of 2 is a 9 touch AC...#3 immune... Well yeah, don't target constructs and undead... duh... I'm saying it's viable at all levels not against all targets.
#4 Mitigation by allies... So it's bad that it might take 1d4+2 attacks away from the enemies? That's almost as valuable as the con loss. That and to do so they will often have to move to attack. (melee tend not to clump up and targeting a lower square on the opposite side from ranged foes breaks LOS. On a big enough target, it's allies might not even know there ARE stirges.)
#5 The main benefit is the fact that they only miss on 1 and there is no save. Between DR's, SR's and high saves a lot of spells and creatures don't hold up from 5th-20th levels. Stirges do and actually have a better chance to hit as touch AC drop. And they are such easy targets that in encourages foes to move and waste their attacks on them instead of party members. Win-win.