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So uh yeah long story short the DM has basically said in his world "adventurer" has not been a common profession in a while, think Pixar's "The incredibles" so all our characters need to stat the game with a "normal job" (ie. Baker, Blacksmith, Butcher, etc.)
Anyways as I'm insane and can't just choose something boring I've worked with the DM to have Lawyers (w/ a splash of peacekeeper and Private Eye) make sense within the context of his world.
So problem is I have no idea how to go about this but I have a couple things
1. At least my first level has to relate to profession (As per DM rule)
2. I want to try out the new Hybrid classes
3. I want to have Decent Int/Wis/Cha preferably with one of them being my main stat.
4. Need "party face skills", Profession: Law and Several knowledge skills
So this led me to the following list
A Divine class worshipping a God with the Law Domain (and preferably community and/or freedom) if possible a Lawful Neutral God.
So: Paladin, War Priest, Oracle, Cleric, Inquisitor
Other classes that fit the archetype are:
Investigator - Leans a bit more to the PI side but still fits the Lawyer sde of things
Magus - The class itself doesn't firt the bill but in my mind a Bladebound Kensai w/ a Sword Cane makes me think of Benedict Cumberbatch as Sherlock...slightly insane a bit pompous, incredibly obsessed (kensai) but brilliant and a master in his chosen field (ie. Lawyer/PI)
All that said my current ideas are as follows
Plain Magus: Magus is a good class, I've always wanted to try it in a game so would be fun but I don't get to play with the need hybrid classes
Magus/Warpriest: Fits the archetype near perfectly imo and I get to worship a divine god not quite sure how well these classes would actually mesh.
Warpriest/Monk: Wisdom Primary (Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists FTW), Cha/Int secondary possibly w/ 2 Paladin (ie. WP16/P2/M2)could use any weird weapon due to WP weapon damage die progression....the kursigama would be fun.
Plain Investigator: Divine - Check, Hybrid - Check, Skills - Check, Theme - Check...it's a very strong contender that I actually just noticed so I'll have to look through it...cursory glance seems interesting but it might be a bit too weak. My first thought is to make some weird Dwarven improvised weapons user but thats mostly because I've been trying to work that particular character into a game for a long while.
Anyways I know this first post is a bit nebulous but I'd like to see what people think (and do a little more research on investigator) before making an actual build
P.S. No 3.5 material but we have access to most PF material (we only have about a dozen books but I can pick up another one if neccessary)
An oracle with the legalistic curse and maybe the lore mystery could work too. Add either the warsighted archetype or the spirit guide one and you can try out some of the ACG stuff.
Dunno why you skipped Inquisitor; it's probably the most natural fit, and it too has archetypes which dip into the ACG.
Magus/warpriest really doesn't mesh. Sacred Fist Warpriest would probably work better than multiclassing into monk. The Investigator could be a solid combatant from about 4th level; it has a rough start. Also if you go that way remember you need either strength or dex to attack and put some points into one of them.
The profession you are looking for is Profession: Barrister (Old age lawyer)
You'd need ranks In: Profession, Diplomacy, sense motive, Knowledge: Local. You could stand to benefit from Knowledge History, and Nobility too. Geography IF dealing with other cultures.
For a PI; you'd want to throw in Perception to that mix, and maybe disable device and stealth to go places you are not normally allowed. Acrobatics, Climb, and Swim may also be handy. Survival for total tracking, though sometimes perception is usable, depending on situation. (Rogues can get a talent for perception use instead)
Investigator is arcane-alchemy, just so you know, not divine. It's Inspiration, is not divinely inspired.
I'd suggest against Magus/Warpriest, as you'd need every score except charisma to be moderately high, in order to be successful.
Anyway, with all that said: To truly fulfill your goal, you'd be advised to have 14 skills for being the Master PI/Barrister. I'd suggest deciding what KIND of mix you want.
For the above skills, Inquisitor, Investigator, and Slayer come to mind; these classes all have a tendency to support investigative behavior, though slayer may require archetyping with your GM, for it to make sense.
Yeah, I would say Inquisitor or Investigator is the way to go here. Definitely don't multi-class if you don't absolutely have to.
I Think a inquisitor would make a nice lawyer. With the conversion inquisition so you Can be fat And annoying and still persuasive.
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The best answer is probably an Oracle with the Legalistic curse.
Asmodean Inquisitor with Infiltrator archetype + Heresy Inquisition. Bluff all the live-long day.
The best answer is probably an Oracle with the Legalistic curse.
This was my first thought but than I realized whilst lawyers aren't supposed to lie...they do, they have to sometimes especially to fit in the PI side.
As for everyone else I'll look into Inquisitor and Asmodeus
Edit: Ok looking at asmodeus I think you guys have the wrong idea, I don't want this guy to be evil like IRL Lawyers I was more thinking like Lawyers are SUPPOSED to be seekers of truth and justice...not quite Lawful Good as sometimes the "good guys" are in the wrong... I was planning to roleplay him like a Mix of Sherlock Holmes and Nylocke from Chris Niosi's T.O.M.E. (you might not get this reference, I try to explain better later but I gotta jet)
"Notes for me"
Inquisitor - Asmodeus, Infiltrator, Heresy, Conversion
Skills?: Prof: Barrister, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Know: Local. Know: History, Know: Nobility, Know: Geography, Perception, Disable Device, Stealth, Bluff
Aren't there enough lawyers at the gaming table already?
But seriously, for pure flavor, I love Imbicatus' thought about the Asmodean Inquisitor. That would be so much fun to play.
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If you're not so keen on Asmodeus, there are other potential deities for an inquisitor, who is also a lawyer.
Abadar is also a god worshiped by lawyers and judges.
Most know Him as the God of Taxes, but His portfolio is Cities, Wealth, Merchants, and Law.
Zohls is an Empyreal Lord of Determination, Investigation, and Truth.
She's fits the PI side a bit more than Abadar.
+1 for Abadar if you don't want Asmodeus. Or 1 for Iomedae if you change your mind and decide you want a Lawful Good deity after all. Both are paragons of law and order, and both have Prestige Classes that illustrate this, although they have cheesy powers that you and/or your GM might not care for: Abadar has Justiciar (completely non-caster, though), and Iomedae has Inheritor's Crusader (only advances Cleric or Paladin, though).
I once played with a cleric of Asmodeus who was a barrister. He was great fun.
When the bad guys came and demanded we get out of their hideout, he said, "Can you show me the deed?"
Abadar is perfect and I'm really liking Inquisitor is there anyway to build it to work as an Wis/Int build (no focus on Str or Dex) sadly Sword Cane is not finessable (Dex would be preferred over Str) and I was hoping to use that or something weird like a kusarigama or maybe a PISTOL Sword Cane
I'm thinking this http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/we apon-property---guided
2 Levels of a Empiricist Investigator might fit nicely
Knowledge local is specifically for laws. Max that.
Bards make ideal pathfinder lawyers.
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I have seen use of profession: barrister come up ridiculously often in pfs.
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Good News: The Sword Cane is finessable, as per Ultimate Equipment.
However an inquisitor is not proficient with it, (the investigator is, so if you do multi-class you're fine).
There are guides to different builds for most of the classes below that might help (some are in the first post, others spread through-out a "few" pages):
Guide to the Class Guides
The Guides are easier to find on this blog:
Pathfinder Guides Guide
Hopefully these can help with idea's about what Ability scores, feats, spells, etc you want/require.
Most give a quick overview on how the class generally plays as well.
P.S. Love the ideas, both your's, and the GM's.
Assuming a medieval system, there's not going to be a jury, so Charisma-based skills like Bluff or Diplomacy are going to be far less important. Assuming access to arcane and divine spells like speak with dead are available, you're almost always going to be arguing a case on technicalities rather than merits, which means Wisdom-based skills, even Profession (barrister) will be less useful. You're looking for loopholes that let your client walk free in spite of being guilty, or ways of dismissing evidence as untrustworthy, such as by showing that a ghost's answers were too cryptic to apply conclusively to your client.
Personally, if I were making a character whose profession was barrister, I would go with either a Bard or an Arcanist. Tons of knowledge skills via high Intelligence or Bardic Knowledge, enough Charisma to get your way when necessary, and hopefully enough Wisdom to still do your job right.
In my games, magic is generally barred from the courtroom. Success at trial is going to rely on use of skills, not class abilities. A lawyer PC would need the following skills...
Knowledge (local): General knowledge of the law.
Perform (oratory): Courtroom theatrics.
Diplomacy: For friendly persuasion of witnesses, juries, and judges.
Bluff: To convince people of your version of the truth.
Intimidate: To cow a hostile witness.
Sense Motive: To know when a witness is lying.
Profession (barrister): To make a living as a lawyer, or for general knowledge about the profession of practicing law.
For a courtroom litigator, Charisma will be the most important ability score, with Intelligence and Wisdom secondary. If, instead, you want to play a Perry Mason defense attorney who conducts his own investigations, Intelligence and/or Wisdom might be more important.
As for character class: any class with a lot of skill points would work.
Depending on how you want to play the character outside the courtroom, I'd recommend any of the following classes: Bard, Rogue, Inquisitor, Investigator... or even Expert, if you want to start out completely as a non-adventurer.
For a parallel example, I am running a wizard character in Carrion Crown who was a practicing physician before he got drawn into a dark conspiracy. He took a trait that gave him Heal as a class skill, and also took the feat Skill Focus (Heal); he then took ranks in Heal and Profession (physician)-- not skills normally associated with a wizard.
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Abadar's Truthtelling is the best lawyer spell in the game.
I once played an Inquisitor of Erastil with profession barrister who was an ADA in Korvosa. I was a lot of fun, but the character was an archer and a generalist with no scores below 12 or above 16.
I always picture the defense attorney worshiping Asmodeus, the district attorney worshiping Erastil, and the Judge worshiping Abadar. Community, Law, and Contracts seem to be the spheres of influence most associated with lawyers, though others would fit as well.
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I always picture the defense attorney worshiping Asmodeus, the district attorney worshiping Erastil...
Funny, I usually picture the reverse...
I'm currently playing a lawyer in a PF home game, and I focused entirely on the social skills, Sense Motive, Knowledge: Local, and Profession: Lawyer (Barrister, but why quibble). The social skills are for cross-examinations and interrogations, the Sense Motive because witnesses lie, Knowledge: Local covers knowledge of humanoid culture and laws, and Profession: Lawyer because I don't work pro bono.
Really, any class with access to most of these will do, but I went specifically with a Infernal Sorceror, because of the flavor. Recently I just pumped him to uber-lawyer with two simple feats: Skill Focus (oratory) and Eldritch Heritage: Imperious. The skill bonuses from the entry-level bloodline power are almost tailor-made for a sorceror lawyer. You will be able to court expensive clients better (Cha bonus to Diplomace and KN: Nobility), outmaneuver your rivals on the other legal team (Cha bonus to KN: Local), and cite historical precedents better (Cha bonus to KN: History), so long as the cases in question are human-centric. If you're an elf, dwarf, or any other race, it's only worth a few extra class skills. Also, it doesn't help with Bluff, Intimidate, or Sense Motive, so it doesn't add much to the dramatic courtroom confrontation with the witness/victim/murderer. The bonus from SF:Perform can help sway a judge or jury, though, so that helps.
For a courtroom litigator, Charisma will be the most important ability score, with Intelligence and Wisdom secondary.
Luckily switching the stat in which a skill relies on is usually not to hard especially with a splash or two.
Inquisitor Archetype Infiltrator 1 Adds Wis mod to Bluff and Diplo
Rogue Trickster 1 - Adds Int to Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Sense Motive (I'd also take Sanctified Rogue which does nothing for less than 4 levels but suits a church affiliated Lawyer better)
Wisdom in the Flesh (Religious trait) select a str, dex or con skill use wisdom instead, and it becomes a class skill. Thinking Stealth
Inquisitor 1, Conversion Inquisition - Use wisdom to bluff, diplomacy and intimidate instead of cha. (this+Infiltrator grants double Wis Mod to Bluff/Diplo..and w/ Kitsune it also adds Int Mod)
If only I could find a way to move AC/Reflex to Int or Wis (so far I've only found canny defense which is Lvl dependant)
I'm also considering a level of fighter for a bonus feat and access to heavy armor
Oh and general look:
Court Room (minus the hat & pistol) - http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/317/d/d/victorian_vigilante_by_foxin shadow-d32ro9o.jpg
Combat Gear - http://prodigyduck.deviantart.com/art/Kitsune-Cavalier-459648944
Heh, if I take a Warpriest level for heavy armor instead of fighter the minor magic blessing would make it so my melee weapon can double as a ranged weapon (and still uses wisdom for atk/dmg)
Any suggestions for a second blessing?
Neat! :)
P.S These are my Planned Stats: STR: 7 DEX: 12 CON: 14 INT: 18 WIS: 18 CHA: 9
Backstory Time (names undecided)
X grew up in the town of Y where he enjoyed causing trouble, nothing dangerous just minor pranks and tricks and due to a wicked silver tongue got away with pretty much all of it.
One day X pulled a prank on the wrong person, the dreaded ??? (think mafia boss or something) and whilst X couldn't get himself out of trouble despite his honeyed words he was able to convince Mr.??? to let ti slide IF he steals something for him.
Now X didn't like the idea of stealing but he did enjoy the idea of not "sleeping with the fishes", besides Mr.??? only wanted a hammer from the local church, no biggie right.
Well unfortunately this wasn't just any hammer it was the churches holy symbol a Golden Gavel with a key shape engraved on it so when the Warpriest Commander caught him no amount of smooth talking would save him but luckily the Commander saw something in the boy and gave him an ultimiatum...
...Spend the rest of his life behind bars OR join the Warpriest ranks as his squire.
X of course chose the latter, his parents unknowing of the theft were very proud of him assuming he joined by choice
At first it seemed like X would never succeed as a warrior as despite being fairly agile he wasn't very strong but one eventually under the tutelage of Z X realized that his wit and silver tongue could be useful in combat by distracting, bewildering or misleading his opponent allowing him to strike despite having lesser strength and/or speed.
Years pass with X eventually being deemed an official Warpriest but Unbeknownst to X word of his "gift of the gab" had spread throughout the now fortress-like temple (the town has grown leaps and bounds as well) and a new breed of "warrior" were looking to recruit him the "Barristers" as with the peace came the need for laws to keep said peace and with laws comes the need of someone who can understand them.
Not much to say beyond this point X joined the Barristers and has become quite successful in his Endeavors even opening up a little PI business on the side.
Frankly it sounds like a happily ever after until...*DM takes over here*
What do you guys think?
Well here's the build I came up with to match the theme/character/backstory
Kitsune Inquisitor
Male kitsune inquisitor (infiltrator) of Abadar 2/rogue (sanctified rogue, kitsune trickster) 1/warpriest of Abad
LN Medium humanoid (kitsune, shapechanger)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +11
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 13, flat-footed 21 (+9 armor, +2 deflection, +1 Dex)
hp 42 (4d8+10)
Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +9; +2 vs. abilities that detect lies or force the truth
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee father's chain scythe +7 (1d12+6/×3)
Special Attacks blessings 3/day, judgment 1/day, sacred weapon (1d6, 1 rounds/day), sneak attack +1d6
Inquisitor Spell-Like Abilities (CL 4th; concentration +8)
. . At will—detect alignment
Inquisitor (Infiltrator) Spells Known (CL 4th; concentration +8)
. . 1st (3/day)—bless, command (DC 15), divine favor
. . 0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, guidance, light, read magic
. . Domain Conversion inquisition
Warpriest Spells Prepared (CL 1st; concentration +5)
. . 1st—shield of faith, torchbearer
. . 0 (at will)—animate tools, simple bed, summarize (DC 14)
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Statistics
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Str 7, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 19, Cha 9
Base Atk +1; CMB +1; CMD 12
Feats Cosmopolitan[APG], Scholar[ISWG], Weapon Focus (flying blade)
Traits magical knack, wisdom in the flesh
Skills Acrobatics +1 (-3 to jump), Bluff +19, Diplomacy +19, Disguise +7, Intimidate +8, Knowledge (history) +13, Knowledge (local) +13, Knowledge (nobility) +11, Perception +11, Profession (barrister) +11, Sense Motive +15, Stealth +11
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Jistka, Skald, Sylvan
SQ blessings (law: axiomatic strike, battle companion, magic: blessed magic, hand of the acolyte), change shape, fast shifter, forbidden lore, gregarious, misdirection, necessary lies
Other Gear full plate, father's chain scythe, 150 gp
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Special Abilities
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Blessings (3/day) (Su) Pool of power used to activate Blessing abilities.
Change Shape (Su) Assume a single human form.
Detect Alignment (At will) (Sp) Detect chaos, evil, good, or law at will.
Fast Shifter (Su) Using your racial change shape ability is a move action instead of a standard action
Forbidden Lore (Ex) May cast spells of alignment opposed to own or deity alignment.
Gregarious (Ex) Successful Diplomacy check causes target to take a –2 penalty vs further CHA skills for 24 hr.
Inquisitor (Infiltrator) Domain (Conversion Inquisition) Deities: Any deity.
Granted Powers: You are a powerful persuader. A honeyed tongue empowered by divine argumentation sways the indifferent and adversarial to your side.
Judgment (1/day) (Su) Variable bonuses increase as the combat continues.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Magical Knack (Inquisitor [Infiltrator]) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Misdirection (Lawful Good) (Sp) When prepare spells choose an alignment to count as for magical detection.
Necessary Lies +2 (Su) Gain bonus to saves vs abilities detecting lies or forcing truth.
Sacred Weapon (1 rounds/day) (Su) As a swift action, grant weapon enhancement bonus or certain powers.
Scholar (Knowledge [local], Knowledge [history]) +2 bonus on two Knowledge skills
Sneak Attack +1d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Wisdom in the Flesh (Stealth) Stealth becomes a Wisdom-based, class skill.
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Str 7, Full Plate and Scythe do not work together, unless you never plan on walking or escaping. You will be a physical liability to the rest of the party.
Yes you have done some clever stuff here (the Sanctified Rogue and Gregarious picks are notably smart) ,but as a GM I would look at you dumping Cha (especially as a Kitsune) and no matter how many feats and skill points you pour into the relevant powers, I would be biased against it, GMs having some influence over skill DCs etc.
You are more or less a non-combatant anyway. You don't need Con or even that much Dex. Boost Str so you can actually walk in your silly outfit, and boost Cha.
As a GM, I throw in occasional Cha checks in social encounters to reflect unfair real life.
The correct answer is a Human Cleric of Asmodeus with the Law and Trickery domains with ranks in Profession (Lawyer) and high ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense Motive :)
(I almost played that in Way of the Wicked).
I don't want this guy to be evil like IRL LawyersHEY!!!
"I don't want this guy to be evil like sterotypical movie Lawyers"
Better :)
Unfortunately I can't actually edit the original post...thats really annoying