Sumutherguy's page

Disagree. The attack made by the shadow is a spell attack, but the spell itself doesn't require an attack roll at all. That's just the effect it creates.

Sumutherguy has a point though about it being risky since you lose the spell if you miss. Plus a Witch who's interested in making melee attacks enough to buy the Nails feat probably doesn't need a spell that lets them make Strikes.

I had really hoped that options which are worse than the base mechanics that they modify werent gonna be a thing in 2e.

Since Malicious Shadows got the PFS clarification that it's a spell attack roll, it's presumably going to also get that in the first round of errata. So... yeah, just two hexes you can't get until level 10.

And with both if those hexes youd arguably be better off not making the free attack in 99% of cases, as they fail (and the focus points are wasted) if it misses. That fact alone seems like it would make the two-action and non-cantrip requirements unnecessary to balance the feat, particularly if it were limited to once per round.

One of the things I've been most excited about in the new APG is the feat Eldritch Nails for the witch class, which gives you an unarmed attack and, more relevantly for this thread, lets you deliver 2-action non-cantrip offensive hexes through your nails attack. Unfortunately, there are only two two-action offensive hexes, and they are both Focus 5 spells that become available with the major lesson feat at level 10. Is it intended that this feature only be usable with these two hexes, or was there a typo/oversight somewhere here? As is, the feature seems essentially useless and even potentially self-crippling, considerably worse than the already dubiously useful Hex Strike from PF1.

Yeah, standard action isnt the end of the world, particularly given that a mintue was the previous minimum before these two. Time to begin my essay on the viability of nonmagical combat healing then.

So, the feat Healer's Hands carries with it the ability to treat deadly wounds as a full-round action. The Clockwork Surgeon trait allows the user to as one of its options cut the time required to treat deadly wounds in half. So my question then is this: what is half of a full-round action? My gut says move action, as one can douuble-move as a full round action, but I'm unaware of any precedent on this. The only other example i can think of is time reduction steps in reloading crossbows and firearms, which is never defined as "half" and appears to operate in smaller increments.

I can understand that it rubs some folks the wrong way, but this is the rules forum, not the gut feeling forum. Guess I'll flag it for faq.

Step 1) Take Vestigial Arm.

Step 2) Remove Vestigial Arm.

Problem: You still have the discovery, but not the arm. You can't retrain it, because then you don't have an arm to replace with the graft.

I'd have to rule a big no on this. I think most GMs would too, since it creates a problem AND gets around what is supposed to be a limit on Vestigial Arm.

Loophole closed.

That still seems to be a statement of preference, not legality. You do end up with a discovery with no target, but I'm not sure how that's a problem per se, given that you could already lose vestigial arms via injury or surgery as is.

Is the concept of an extra two slam attacks at the cost of a permanent 4 wisdom penalty really so egregious to you?

Replace your vestigial arm with a monstrous graft and you have a vestigial monstrous graft.

Can you point me to the precedent for a replacement for a given feature to still bear the same restrictions as that feature by default, or for the "vestigial" qualifier to be something that attaches to anything that replaces it?

I find zero language in either monstrous graft or vestigial limb to indicate that the vestigial qualities are somehow transferred to what is an entirely separate and new limb from a whole other creature.

I've yet to see any real argument for how a. Vestigial arms are not valid targets for monstrous graft, b. Monstrous graft arms somehow inherit vestigial arms qualities, or c. The vestigial limb discovery prevents loss (and thereby replacement) of the limb that it grants. A lot of "i dont like this", "this is impossible" without explanation, and "read these rules" in reference to rules that are not justified in their applicability, but that's it.

I don't see how that quoted text is relevant, as Monstrous Graft is a different mechanism than all three restricted there. It is not adding a natural attack to a vestigial limb, nor is it modifying the limb. It is removing the vestigial limb entirely and replacing it with a new monstrous graft limb. The vestigial limb is gone, it does not exist.

My core argument is unaddressed, which is simply that the vestigial limb is not present.

Ok, but all of those examples pertain to trying to add things to or otherwise employ a vestigial limb. Monstrous Graft replaces them entirely with different limbs, which that faq doesn't address. Thus it is not a matter of trying to get extra attacks with vestigial limbs so much as getting rid of them as fuel for more monstrous grafts, which by my reading results in sidestepping the extra attack restrictions entirely by removing any valid target for then.

Seeing a lot of flat denial here, with a marked absence of explanation or argument.

Why not? Doesn't it cease to be a vestigial arm at that point, and therefore no longer an applicable subject for the vestigial arms restrictions? It becomes a monstrous graft, which explicitly stated that such limbs can grant extra natural attacks.

From Monstrous Graft:
"Benefit(s): The alchemist can replace up to four of his own amputated limbs with those of a monstrous beast of the same size category. If the grafted limb is an arm, the alchemist gains either a climb speed of 15 feet or a claw or slam natural attack that deals 1d6 points of damage (1d4 for a Small alchemist)."

Ok, so I've got a question about a couple of Alchemist discoveries that happen to add/replace arms. Specifically, I'm wondering if I could, as an Alchemist, take the vestigial arm discovery, then take the Monstrous Graft discovery to replace my vestigial arm with one from another humanoid. In the answer got his I'd like to know:

1. Can a vestigial arm (as an arm) be replaced by Monstrous Graft?
2. If yes to 1, then can this grant an additional natural attack in the form of a claw or slam?

My reading thus far is a yes to both, as Monstrous Graft only requires that you swap out an arm without further restriction, and the rules governing vestigial arms would cease to be applicable as the vestigial arm is replaced by a different one with different governing rules. Am i missing something here, or is my four-armed, four-slam-attack alchemist build a go?

Hey all, I've got a bit of a flavor pickle that I'm looking for help with. So for my group's next kingmaker campaign ill be playing a ratfolk underground chemist/makeshift scrapper rogue. His backstory revolves around faking his way into and through most of wizarding college (because it was the only institution of higher learning in his home city) with a combination of alchemy, magic items, and sleight of hand, then faking his own death before an exam where he was sure to be outed and fleeing to where he now has joined the PC group for an expedition into the lawless river kingdoms, still under the pretense of being a wizard. Im planning on making heavy use of alchemical weapons and wands to maintain the charade, but still need some appropriate item to use as an improvised weapon for his makeshift scrapper ability. My first thought was a false wizards staff with compartments that he could embed wands in to conceal their use, but finding no means of making that work by RAW I am looking for other options.

So, what would a rogue pretending to be a wizard use as a melee weapon that qualifies as improvised? My current frontrunner is to use wands themselves as clubs, and flavoring it as him having figured out ways to bring out small amounts of their magical power at a time to enhance their impact and damage when swung, which would fit well with his Supernatural Improvisation ability. Im still unsure if wands as weapons wouldn't have some harsh mechanical downsides given their fragility though, so im looking for more suggestions for thematically appropriate items.

ps: i know that the counterfeit mage archetype is made for such a backstory, but it didn't reflect the variation of means he uses to fake magic well enough for me, and doesn't stack with underground chemist.

Got a rules interaction that I'm a bit unsure of here: if I am, say, a Barb10/Heritor knight6 with greater beast totem and mighty strikes, and find myself staggered, via say diehard, can I then charge as a standard action and use mighty strikes to add vital strike damage to my standard-action pounce attacks? Im not able to think of a good reason why not, but wanted to ask the boards before making assumptions.

So does the following work:
Staggered > 1 action/turn
Charge >available as standard action due to staggered
Pounce > full attack on charge, regardless of action used.
Mighty strikes > apply vital strike damage to any attack made as standard action
Therefore: full attack + vital strike on each attack?

If you are looking for a cg piracy option, Sam bellamy might be a good real-life basis for a good or at least non-evil pirate

The problem with buffing up yourself with all of those buffs is that few of them are self-only, and most would be getting better bang for your buck being cast on the inquisitor. D8+7 damage at level 8 is paltry at best, especially when by this point your magic missiles likely out-damage it. This is not helped by the fact that you have 10 STR and are not two-handing. Your "build" isn't really bad, mostly standard wizard fare, but your tactics are admittedly rather sub-optimal in the sense that by doing melee combat and being the locus of buffs you are taking on a combat role that your character is not trained or equipped to embody well.

If you want to get into melee as a wizard, you may want to look into polymorph spells, and leave weapon arts to those trained in weapons. Alternatively, go for a strength-based eldritch knight build and dip fighter, or play a magus. The latter lends itself quite well to swordplay.

On the RP front, your fella doesn't seem to have much of anything going for the whole "swordmaster" image other than being proficient in the swords he carries, a quality shared by most of your party. In fact he doesnt seem to deviate much at all from a standard wizard's expertise and training, differing only in the tactics he employs. If you are going for that as a core character image, you may want to try and see if you can marry it to his mechanics, unless the swordmaster thing is meant to be a hubristic and fantastical affectation. You might be able to strengthen this theme a bit with the elven racial feats and combat style, and by prestiging into a higher bab class as quickly as possible. An inspired blade swashbuckler dip could also be good for such an angle, as it gives weapon finesse, int-based panache (for sword-mastery antics), weapon focus, and qualifies you for fencing grace.

The Heritor Knight PrC from Paths of the Righteous can apply the Vital Strike chain to any standard action attack at level 6, and gets a number of standard-action special attacks built in. Should enable Vital Strike to combine with many other standard action special attacks as well as a mounted charge under certain circumstances.

Physics-wise, this is a very bad idea. The power in a lance charge comes primarily from concentrating as much of the force of a charging rider and their mount into as small of a delivery area as possible, thus maximizing your force applied per square inch and thus magnifying greatly the piercing ability of what is otherwise a fancy spear. This is why lances get x2 damage on the charge, because they are very effective force-concentrators in that situation.

What you are proposing would change this in several ways. First, the bear trap would massively increase the surface area across which force is being applied to the end of the charge, thereby reducing the force per inch to a fraction of its previous magnitude. Second, the sudden increase in area for force to spread into and the amount of pressure being applied to it on impact means that it will be very likely to simply snap off of the lance shaft or have the mechanism be damaged before it can actually trigger. Third, the triggering of the tap, which entails the jaws closing on a target, us unlikely to occur fast enough to catch the target of a lance charge in the milliseconds after impact, unless the charge was already enough to drive the body of the trap into the target, in which case it cant trigger effectively anyway. If the trap by some miracle actually did trigger properly on impact and catch the target, it would not really benefit from the force of the lance charge itself, as the trap would be applying force from its own springs in a different direction, and the forward-force of the lance impact would have no real effect on the force applied by closing trap jaws. It would then almost assuredly become damaged and break off of the shaft, as the rider and horse continue their momentum with a couched lance attached now to their target.

Outside of charge you'd have less chance of it up and breaking on you, but it would still be very difficult to trigger effectively, and at that point you could probably just use a mancatcher instead to accomplish the same effect.

So, yeah, you can put a beartrap on a pole, but its not gonna really work like a lance would, be that effective in combat, nor benefit from any lance-like wielding, and may in fact be made less effective by a high-impact charge.

Mechanically, this would need to be some kind of custom weapon, but I think a "lance-trap" may be out of the question as it simply could not effectively be used for its given purpose even if it did exist.

"Liberation Theology" is more about leftism than about actual liberty, so I would say the ideology of Rahadoum, rather than a deity, would fit best.

As a theologian, I can assure you that you are vastly over-simplifying a broad category of systematic and public theology.

OP, I think Milani could work well, but any deity with a strong anti-slaver or anti-oppression bent could work. Halfling gods might be a good choice in-setting if you are near Cheliaxian territory.

3-4 levels unchained rogue, exotic weapon proficiency estoc or elven branched spear, then unchained barbarian.

Why no urban barbarian for more dex-pumping?

On the other hand, the SRD offers very weak transparency on what comes from where, usually due to setting copyright problems—a lot of GMs, myself included, like to know where a spell option comes from. Some, like the Summon Monster variant that allows you to summon tigers, are decidedly overpowered without the original context.

Let the forum-dead lie in peace, you heartless monster!

He doesn't have any need for grit, though.

If he's gonna dip for drinking benefits, I think Barbarian (Drunken Brute) would be a better choice. That would let him rage for as long as he wants while throwing back the drink.

As long as I want being until I get alchohol poisoning. Effects that require you to drink every round tend to be p. dang risky in sustained fights.

The mutagen may be a good idea, as it takes nothing away from this build really.

So, im playing a fighter of Cayden Cailean in an upcoming campaign, and was hoping to get some advice on good feats/tools to play up the "drunken bravado" shtick.

The stuff I have already found is as follows:

Blade and Tankard Style, as the core of the build.
Courage In a Bottle, to add +2 to bravery bonus when drunk.
Improved Bravery, to add bravery to all mind-effecting saving throws
inspiring bravery, to make this a party buff
the new Bravery in Action and Undaunted Bravery feats to add my bravery bonus to my initiative and intimidate, respectively
Sash of the War champion for another +1 bonus to bravery
Amulet of Courage (from divine anthology) for another +1 bonus to bravery
Tankard of the Drunken Hero for heroism among other benefits
Drunken Brawler, for temp hp, -2 ref, and +2 will and fort
possibly armed bravery advanced weapon training as an alternative to improved bravery

So here's the build im thinking:

Half-orc, 20 pt buy, Shaman's Apprentice and Sacred Tattoo alternate racial traits
Str 16 Con 14 Dex 16 Int 7 Wis 10 Cha 13
Traits: Fortunes Favored, Fortified Drinker

1 Fighter: Endurance (Shamans Apprentice), Two-Weapon Fighting, Blade and Tankard Style (replaces shield prof.), Power Attack
2 Fighter: Bravery +1, Drunken Brawler
3 Fighter: Courage in a Bottle, Armor training 1
4 Fighter: +1 Dex, Bravery in Action
5 Fighter: Weapon Training 1 (rapier), Advanced Weapon Training: Armed Bravery
6 Fighter: Bravery +2, Imp. Two Weapon Fighting
7 Fighter: Advanced Armor Training: either Armor Specialization or Armored Confidence, either Weapon Specialization or Cornudgeon Smash

At this point i'm unsure whether to go for an intimidation focus with Undaunted Bravery and Cornudgeon Smash, or go more for straight damage and AC. Saves should be pretty dang high across the board, with reflex as the lowest. Damage output should be decent, so long as I can get some buffing potions or infusions to chug. I'd really like to get some of the barbarian rage powers that give bonuses for drinking, but the only in-class means is viking which replaces bravery, and VMC Barbarian would both reduce my available feats and not solve the issue till level 11. I also cant really afford the early Strength investment or Racial Heritage feat required for Raging Brute.

So I guess what I want to know is this: are there other alchohol and/or bravery themed options that would be useful, and am I pouring to much into these two to have a functional fighter?

all evangelist levels past 1 stack with all of your first classes levels. So a Warrior of the Holy Light 7/Evangelist 4 would have that class ability as a level 10 WOTHL. Your BaB is gonna suffer going into evangelist as a martial though. I have no idea about PFS legality.

Im pretty sure the rogue can throw bombs even if he can't sneak attack. I think the idea is to have a switch hitter who can throw bombs (with occasional bonus SA damage and debuffs from rogue 4), or get into melee with a pumped up dexterity and sneak attack. So they get all the best parts of a rogue (the first four levels) with most of the alchemist's.

I don't see a need, however, to give up the basic alchemist bombs just to gain some extra sneak attack die, however. Plain Alchemist or Fire Bomber would make more sense to me. You're already getting sneak attack from your rogue, right?

Going vivisectionist/underground chemist with the bomb rogue talent would let him have full progression on both sneak attack and bomb damage, while dropping either archetype would mean sacrificing most of either bomb damage or sneak attack.

Malefic, you may also want to look into the Grenadier archetype, might help boost your damage and/or switch hitting ability if you are OK with sacrificing the alchemists poison features

Alright, so chalking the vox archetype up as another downgrade to avoid, as that combo was the only way i could think of salvaging its action economy.

Gonna keep it short and sweet. Would a Vox Mesmerist's Wounding Words ability be able to be used in conjunction with vital strike? Relevant text to follow:

At 3rd level, a vox can focus the power of his voice to magnify the force of his blows in melee. As a standard action, a vox can make a melee touch attack that deals 1d6 points of sonic damage plus 1 point per mesmerist level. Alternatively, he can make a single attack with a melee weapon as a standard action, adding the listed sonic damage to the damage dealt by his weapon on a successful attack. He can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.

It seems to me that this would indeed work, as vital strike modifies a standard action attack, allowing a vox mesmerist to pile on pain strike, vital strike, and wounding words into a single attack for a reasonable if not overly-impressive big-hit build. Am I missing something?

So for as long as the rules subsection of the Pathfinder forums has existed, threads have perennially popped up with folks trying to combine vital strike, spring attack, and charging in some combination. Throughout the years, folks have told them "no, those don't stack", and everyone has left saddened and/or frustrated.

So let's have another one of those, 'cause I think I may have finally found a RAW solution to this age-old problem, and while I'm sure there's some nuance im missing, it looks solid to me.

EXHIBIT A: Divine Fighting Technique in the Weapon Masters Handbook entitled Gorum's Swordsmanship. Relevant text reads as follows:

Initial Benefit: If you have the Vital Strike feat, you can

apply its effect to an attack you make with a greatsword at the
end of a charge.

EXHIBIT B, YOUR HONOR: A feat from the Advanced Race Guide entitled Martial Versatility. Reads as follows:

Benefit: Choose one combat feat you know that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus). You can use that feat with any weapon within the same weapon group.

This feat will be used with Gorum's Sowrdsmanship, which applies to the greatsword as a weapon, opening the feat up to all heavy blades.

EXHIBIT C IF IT PLEASE THE COURT: The Horselord Archetype of the Cavalier, relevant abilities read as follows, bolded for emphasis:

At 6th level, a horselord gains the benefits of the Mobility feat so long as she is mounted. Additionally, the horselord deals double damage while using a one-handed slashing weapon from the back of a charging mount, as though using a lance. This replaces the bonus feat gained at 6th level.

At 9th level, a horselord gains the benefits of the Spring Attack feat so long as she remains mounted. The horselord uses her mount's movement for this action and neither the horselord nor her mount provoke attacks of opportunity from the target. When making a single attack with a one-handed slashing weapon while using the Spring Attack feat, the horselord treats her mount as charging. This ability can be used to qualify for other feats that treat Spring Attack as a prerequisite; however, the cavalier can benefit from those feats only while mounted.

So, we combine these three things (in a level 4 titan fighter/6 horselord cavalier worshiping gorum) with a mount and spirited charge and we get:

A charging spring attack with a bastard sword applying vital strike damage, which is tripled from the horselord ability and spirited charge.

Is this an actually functional combination of these three oddities, or am I missing something? I'm a little worried that the horselord text might be a bit weird re: spring attack, but i'm pretty confident about the other stuff enabling a vital strike triple-damage bastard sword charge.

It works, but it's generally worse than just having the DR would be.

"Sumutherguy wrote:

One, the point was mostly an exercise in theorycrafting. Two, you always count as your own ally in Pathfinder.

Yeah, you might want to re-check that, buddy.

"You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible."

Is the contention that this would fall under the "makes no sense" bit? I'm not sure how.

So, eh, yeah, like you said, ignoring that this relies on an incredibly oose interpretation of the Draconic Defender Feat and counting as your own ally, what does this do to address ANY of the problems with a defense focused build?

Yes, yes, high AC, big whoop. You still have no way to force anyone to attack you, or punish them for missing, or any such thing.

You could fix part of that by mixing in Snake Style, but it's still pretty meh because of the first bit.

You still have the classic "I can't crack the tin can, let's go after the softer meat" problem.

What was the point of this thread?

One, the point was mostly an exercise in theorycrafting. Two, you always count as your own ally in Pathfinder.

The solution would really be that this setup allows you to be mostly item-independent for very high defenses, so one could focus a lot more on offense with items, (bracers of the avenging knight, silver smite bracelet, and champion's banner come to mind), and on top of this each further cavalier level (and the chain challenge feat) is gonna add another 2 static damage to your attacks, making you a more effective damage dealer as a game progresses, though with the lack of pounce that plagues daring champions in general.

So, as many of you may or may not know one of the features of the recent Occult Adventures book was the innocuous little gem that is the Eastern Star Cavalier order. On the surface, this order seems to make the cavlaier a little more defensively focused, giving significant AC and saves, as well as a smidge of DR, to the cavalier class provided that the character in question generally favor defensive fighting and/or combat expertise. After not seeing it used for much since, however, I've decided to do what I can to take this defensive cavalier chassis and dial it up to eleven.

"But Sumutherguy," you ask, "what can you do with this? Don't you know that defensive-focused martials are rather silly and ineffective, and that monk-paladins are already the best at AC and save pumping?"

"Aha", I reply, waggling my eyebrows knowingly, "watch and be surprised my skeptical friend, as I work arithmetic wonders"*

*"arithmetic wonders" here being defined as "i looked up stuff in a book and plugged it into a calculator aren't I so brilliant"

So here goes:

Race: Halfling
20 pt buy: 10 Str 16 Dex 16 Con 8 int 10 wis 16 cha
traits: cautious warrior, fortune's favored

LEVEL ONE!: MoMS Monk. Feats: Imp. Unarmed (duh), Crane Style (bonus feat), Toughness, Stunning Fist

"Aha!" you think, "So it is just another monk build!"

First of all, shut up, i needed quick access to crane style. Second of all, also shut up.

Level 2: 1 Daring Champion Order of the Eastern Star Cavalier, some teamwork feat, challenge, etc.

Level 3: monk 1/cavalier 2: cautious fighter, Order, Guarded

Alright, so here's our first milestone. At level 3 with Guarded active we have saves of Fort 9, Ref 8, Will 5. A bit lacking in our will save, but strong overall. More importantly, entering into defensive fighting now gives us 2(base)+1(trait)+2(cautious fighter)+1(crane style)+1(acrobatics = 7 bonus AC when fighting defensively for a -2 to attack. Not bad for level 3, eh? With a chain shirt and buckler that brings our AC to 27, or 28 against challenged foes.

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE

Level 4: monk 1/cavalier 2/paladin 1: smite, aura, detect evil. +1 CON

"OHHHHHH" You are screaming in your mind, "It's another monkadin, big deaaallll."

Why must you always be so negative?

Level 5: Monk 1/cavalier 2/paladin 2: DIVINE GRACE BABY. Also, Lay On Hands and Draconic Defender.

Now, divine grace adds your CHA to your saves and Draconic Defender gives an ally (you count as your own) a natural armor bonus equal to your dodge bonus from defensive fighting. Which, right now is 7.

So this brings our defenses to Fort 15, Ref 11, Will 11 and 34/35 AC. Pretty dang good, but we can GO HIGHER.

Level 6: Monk 1/cavalier 3/paladin 2: Nimble! +1 AC!

Level 7: Monk 2/cavalier 3/paladin 2: Crane Wing (bonus), Blundering Defense

Now, crane wing is a bit of a controversial feat. It gives you an additional +4 dodge bonus when fighting defensively, but that bonus goes away if an attack misses by 4 or less. Normally, that would be a pretty big problem, but we ahve other feats that serve as a force multiplier here.

So, with crane wing our dodge bonus to defensive fighting is now 11, with a -2 to attacks. Pretty hefty. This means that our Draconic Defender bonus is now also 11 while crane wing is up, and that on top of this we have the new Blundering Defense luck bonus to AC which is equal to half of our dodge bonus, so 6 if we include fortune's favored. The Crane Wing +4 therefore actually gives us a net +11 AC, more than a sufficient cushion to keep it up consistently.

Our last level is Cavalier 4/Monk 2/Paladin 2, for deeds, 1 dex, and a +1 to our order bonus.

With this our defenses while fighting defensively end up as follows:

Saves: Fort 19 (3 attribute + 10 base + 3 grace + 1 halfling +2 guarded), Ref 13 (4 base + 3 attribute + 3 grace +1 halfling +2 guarded), Will 13 (7 base + 3 grace +1 halfling +2 guarded)

AC: 10 + 4 (armor) +3 (dex) +1 (buckler) +1 (Size) + 11 (dodge) + 11 (NA) + 6 (luck) +1 (nimble) = 48

Those are some pretty ridiculous figures, and this is without any magic items! At Level 9 with lower-than average WBL and average HP rolls our Halfling multiclassed monstrosity could also have:

Rod of Balance
Headband of Alluring Charisma +2
Cloak of Resistance +2
+1 Buckler
+1 Agile Rapier
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2
Lesser Luck Mail

For the following array:

Level 8
HP: 85
Fort: 24
Ref: 19
Will: 18
AC: 56 when defensively fighting
DR 1/-

Feats: Imp. Unarmed, Crane Style, Toughness, Stunning Fist, Cautious Fighter, Draconic Defender, Crane Wing, Blundering Defense

Against the target of a challenge, saves and AC all go up by 2. Against a smite target, AC goes up by 4. Also, Evasion, for what that's worth.

Attacks: Rapier +11/+6 for 1d4+8 damage. 1d4+12 in a challenge, +15/10 and 1d4+14 in both a challenge and smite. Not incredible, but not as horrible as some defensively-focused builds. The Cavalier combo of challenge and precise strike really save our bacon here.

"But you never really solved the problem of a defensive martial being generally ignorable and ineffective. Anyone can stack Daring Champion damage bonuses." You beam into my brain with your mind-lasers.

There's just no pleasing you, is there?

Your build might be helped by the Surprise Manuever feat, which adds bonuses to those dirty tricks, and either the Skulking Slayer Rogue Archetype or Bounty Hunter Slayer which both do the same. (and end up with 2x your number of SA dice to dirty tricks when combined with that feat)

Thing is, once you buff up your dirty tricks enough to be reliable, you might as well keep going and make yourself into a dedicated debuffer. With the previously mentioned tools and/or Debilitating Injury and dirty trick style feats you can make your rogue able to incapacitate without even having to deal damage. Sap Master looks great on paper, but is really only usable consistently in sniper or enforcer-intimidate builds.

I'd be careful with ragechemist, it's very easy to rage yourself into a 0-int coma unless you build heavily around it.

So, you're planning on making poison a source of healing? You're a mad dwarf, I'll tell you that. I'm guessing that a Vivisectionist would go best with the Barbarian? Don't think bombs will do you much good anyway. I haven't taken a look at the newer Archetypes yet, maybe there's another one better fitted these days?

Metamorph might actually be good for a 1-2 level dip. Trades out alchemy for 1 hour/level per day alter self.

As nobody's brought it up thus far, I'm gonna suggest you look at the Evangelist PRC, as it might help your archer build considerably.

Biggest pros of it will be 9/10 progression in all cleric class features, +2 AC, +Wis to hit/damage with longbows, the ability to copy an animal companion, some spell-like abilities, and a pretty nifty customizable PRC capstone at level 16.

You'd give up only one effective cleric level for all that.

PRC here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/evangelist

Erastil boons here: http://archivesofnethys.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Erastil

adding Dex+Wis to attacks and Str+Wis to damage on a longbow should be especially effective for a cleric, and doubling your animal companion (assuming you took animal domain) is never a bad thing.

Flask thrower will do it for two fewer feats, but lower effective range.

I am pretty sure there is a feat that helps reduce armor penalties to certain skills. There is also armor materials. Let's please not make more avenues to powergame, because then you have those who will solely focus on having 0 check penalties all the time and a max Dex of +10 or some such. It is fine the way it is.

And let's not make the Fighter more useless, one of their main sticks is armor training which does just that.

Also there is already a feat that decreases Arcane Spell Failure, it's in the corebook.

Increasing armor speed, Fighter. I feel like the more rules we get that make power grabs from all classes without actually just taking a dive and multiclassing, the more blurred every class will be.

I can assure you that powergamers in this game are not overly concerned with check penalties and max dex bonuses on armor.

Sumutherguy wrote:

Is there anything in this book that will help me make an effective "martial scholar" type, who utilizes high int and knowledge checks?

Isn´t the Investigator already this ?

Only partially. The "knowledge to combat effectiveness" talent they get is very limited, and they utilize intelligence in a clearly magical way that goes beyond "martial scholar" into "magician-scholar" territory. I'm thinking something more like the Student of War PrC.

Elven Battle Focus: Int to damage instead of any other score with Longsword, Rapier, or any weapon with "elven" in it's name while using Elven Battle Style feat.

Synergises very will with a Lore Warden and Elven Branched Spear.

Oh, excellent! I've been wanting to make a smarty-pants spear fighter for awhile.

Is there anything in this book that will help me make an effective "martial scholar" type, who utilizes high int and knowledge checks?

TarkXT wrote:

Was considering writing a guide for this.

I would love to see a guide for this! The magus is my second favorite class (with paladin first) and I have wanted a magical, gun wielding, Outlaw Star like character for years now.

Anything I can do to make this guide happen, let me know!

That might work as a magus x/spell slinger wizard 1, though you will need rapid reload on top of other ranged feats. You get higher DCs on your spells too, so that's neat.

Basically, it either reduces the penalties for fighting with an oversized weapon or allows you to wield one-handed weapons as though they were light weapons for the purposes of TWF. It's either or, but...

Unless you are a Titan Mauler.

Halfling Daring Champions are incredibly feat starved however and a two level brawler dip really cuts into your precise strike and Challenge Progression.

Pure Daring Champions are feat starved, yes. The brawler dip nets you three feats for two levels though, and while it does retard the progression of challenge/precise strike, they will still mean a combined +20 to damage by level 12, as opposed to the +12 that a non-DC cavalier would get.

If your goal is to be a high-ac high-save puncher cavalier, I feel that a Halfling Daring Champion/Order of the Eastern Star might be a better bang for your buck. You don't start out with IUS, true, but two levels of brawler can solve that while giving you another bonus feat and a form of TWF with a single weapon, great for doubling your precise strike deed damage and enabling you to take a buckler in your offhand. Halflings also get several great feats for defensive fighting, as an added bonus. The -2 STR might mean that you suffer damage-wise in the early levels, but once the precise strike deed comes online that should be more than made up for. Having a high CHA isntead of INT (and using CHA for INT feats) means that you can also get some good use from the feat Osyluth Guile in later levels

I guess we will just have to disagree then. 'nuf said.

Noticed some other things about Faith Healing.
** spoiler omitted **
key words:
"You can use faith healing once per day." -- nothing in the other stuff mentioned a way to use it more than once.
"You can't use faith healing on yourself." -- this makes the Friendless trait unusable for this application.

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Sumutherguy wrote:

This combo requires two feats and two 15kish magical items (three feats if you aren't a rogue)

Not sure I follow. You don't need Rogue's Edge, the advanced talent Cutting Edge, or the Signature Skill feat. Psychic Sensitivity opens the skill unlocks for Appraise, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge [arcana], Linguistics, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival. Psychic Healing uses the heal unlock to get the goods. Rogue's Edge and Signature Skill only opens one, while Cutting Edge opens two.

----

Occult Skill Unlocks
key words: "Occult skill unlocks require intense concentration and strenuous effort, so the amount a character can use each skill unlock is limited to once per day or per week. This limit is for all uses of the skill unlock" -- If you use one form of Faith Heeling, you cannot use Faith Healing in any form until the next day.
If you want to use an...

you need it for the Treat Deadly Wounds standard skill unlocks.

You missed the point. I agree with you on how the skill unlocks work.

What I am saying is that this item does not affect the rate of healing.

Do you think that an item that 1/day heals you 5 hp affects the rate of healing? That seems to be what you are arguing.

/cevah

I think that an item which alters the effect of rest does just that. Whether or not it is intended as a "reward" for anything is both unknowable and irrelevant, as it's effect is to alter the result of a rest, and therefore things which are tied to and duplicate the effects of rest.

The only definition of natural rate of healing which I have found in the rules shows up in the Attuned to the Wild feat here. In this feat, it is defined as "the amount of hit points and ability damage you heal from a full night's rest." They are, therefore, tied inexorably together. Things which alter one's natural rate of healing then also alter the effects of rest, and vice versa. This would mean that both Comfort's Cloak and the Periapt of Wound Closure function to alter natural rate of healing, the effects of rest, and subsequently the effects of functions which emulate rest/natural healing.

Sumutherguy wrote:

Cevah wrote:

Key wording here: "for 8 hours of rest", "When taking a full 24 hours of rest". This works when 8 hours or 24 hours is spent, not effectively 8 or 24 hours spent.

The cloak does not say anything about improved ability damage recovery.

The disagreement here appears to be over whether the words "recovers hit points as if it had rested for..." under the skill unlocks for the heal skill. Now, if this only meant base healing rate under any/all circumstances, as you are claiming, then why even tie it to resting at all? why no just say that it's 2/lvl, 4/lvl, 6/lvl, and 12/lvl instead? instead, the use of the ability has been explicitly tied to the effects of another rule-set, namely the effects of resting. The healing done is not stated to be equal to the "base" amount of resting healing or the "unmodified" amount, but instead occurs "as if" resting had occurred, implicitly including all effects upon resting healing given no further qualifiers. Were such not the case, then the "as if" clause is entirely useless by RAW in any/all instances. "as if", as a clause, implies both the base function and any relevant modifiers or restrictions, and therefore encompasses modifiers attached to the emulated effect/action. The closest rules analogue I can think of for this is the Mighty Fist of Earth spell, which does damage "as if" a target had been hit with an unarmed strike. Modifiers to said unarmed strike damage are included there, so why not modifiers to rest healing here?

TLDR: "as if", so far as I understand it, emulates the specified effects (here, healing) of another action completely and therefore includes any relevant modifiers/restrictions.

Actually, the disagreement is not the skill unlocks, but what the magic item does. I see it as rewarding resting for large periods of time with increased hp recovery. You see it as modifying the rate of recovery.

The time used by the psychic healing is one hour, not eight or twenty four. Your patient is not resting...

except that the skill unlocks specify that the treat deadly wounds use grants the same benefits as such rest and have the same effect. If something modifies the effect of the rest therefore, it also modifies the effect of the emulation of such rest which is explicitly stated to mimic it. In this case, the actual time taken is irrelevant, as the effect is treated as if it were indeed a 24 hour rest anyway.

/me

Two items of note:
"doesn't require a healer's kit" -- Since this works like TDW, do you still take -2 per missing healer's kit? RAW: I think so, RAI: I don't think so.

I don't think so. Were that the case, the "doesn't require a healer's kit" part would be utterly meaningless, as you technically dont' have to use a healer's kit to treat deadly wounds anyway. In any case, not requiring a healer's kit does not mean that you can't use one.

"grants the creature a number of temporary hit points equal to the amount of damage healed" -- temp hp = damaged healed. Excess healing is wasted and does not heal damage, so excess does not convert to temp hp.
"A creature can benefit from psychic healing only once per day, and can't benefit from both this ability and treat deadly wounds in the same day." -- Can use one or the other, not both, each day.

Ill grant you the second point here, didn't read that the first time. So this is once per day. Your first point here I have addressed in my first post.

Numbers could use better explaining, but exact amount not relevant to concept.

using the heal skill unlock and assuming patient is of equal level:

Levels 1-4: base amount healed by deadly wounds is equal to 1/level+WIS (4-9, assuming 16 Wisdom)

Levels 5-9: amount healed is as if target rested for full day, or 2/level (10-18)

Levels 10-14: amount healed is as if target rested for full day with long term care, or 2/level (base full day rest) *2 (long term care effect) for 4/level (40-56)

Levels 15-19: target heals as if resting for three full days, or 2/level (base full day rest) * 3 (# of days rested) for 6/level (90-114)
Level 20: target heals as if resting for three full days with long term care, or 2/level(base) * 3 (days) * 2 (long term care) = 240

Key wording here: "for 8 hours of rest", "When taking a full 24 hours of rest". This works when 8 hours or 24 hours is spent, not effectively 8 or 24 hours spent.
The cloak does not say anything about improved ability damage recovery.

The disagreement here appears to be over whether the words "recovers hit points as if it had rested for..." under the skill unlocks for the heal skill. Now, if this only meant base healing rate under any/all circumstances, as you are claiming, then why even tie it to resting at all? why no just say that it's 2/lvl, 4/lvl, 6/lvl, and 12/lvl instead? instead, the use of the ability has been explicitly tied to the effects of another rule-set, namely the effects of resting. The healing done is not stated to be equal to the "base" amount of resting healing or the "unmodified" amount, but instead occurs "as if" resting had occurred, implicitly including all effects upon resting healing given no further qualifiers. Were such not the case, then the "as if" clause is entirely useless by RAW in any/all instances. "as if", as a clause, implies both the base function and any relevant modifiers or restrictions, and therefore encompasses modifiers attached to the emulated effect/action. The closest rules analogue I can think of for this is the Mighty Fist of Earth spell, which does damage "as if" a target had been hit with an unarmed strike. Modifiers to said unarmed strike damage are included there, so why not modifiers to rest healing here?

TLDR: "as if", so far as I understand it, emulates the specified effects (here, healing) of another action completely and therefore includes any relevant modifiers/restrictions.

Periapt of Wound Closure, Bandages of Rapid Recovery, and Reviving Rest I can give you, granted that the wording on each is rather ambiguous ("natural rate of healing", "when receiving bed rest""complete bed rest".) Comfort's Cloak, however, I consider to be more clear-cut in its effects, which is simply to increase the healing granted by the rest actions with none of these other riders. Given my interpretation of the "as if" clause above, I'm p. sure this applies.

Anyone care to evaluate a best case scenario for the numbers?

the best case scenario numbers according to your interpretation are 1-4+WIS, 10-18, 40-56, 90-114, and 240 respectively for each tier of the skill unlock.

PS. I have never actually seen a ruling on the exact mechanics of action/effect emulation in pathfinder, so I'm going of of what makes the most logical sense to me here. If the default form of emulation is base/unmodified emulation only then I of course concede this case under protest that such is no fun at all.

No one will ever actually try to use this in a game. It is too circumstantial given the amount of character resources that have to go into it.

Mostly its just an unexpected and funny rules combination.

I'm playing a ratfolk alchemist in Giantslayer who's getting Psychic Sensitivity for the skill unlocks anyway and am my group's only healer, so I will certainly be doing this for the party's fighter/meatshield.

Sounds like another fun ability is going to be nerfed into nonexistence due to optimization.

This combo requires two feats and two 15kish magical items (three feats if you aren't a rogue), has some pretty glaring weaknesses (time and uses/day, particularly), and scales rather reasonably with level from what I can tell (1.2k hp at level 20 < the shenanigans that wizards can still do), so I don't think its particularly overpowered, especially considering that by the time it hits peak effectiveness most spell-casters can laugh heartily at the notion that mere hit points will save anyone from them.

It is accessible to martials though, so that may mean that it is indeed doomed.