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Which I don't. Bloodlines have infinitely more flavor than schools do. Wizards for the most part are cut from the same cloth they're essentially the same no matter what specialisation they might be pursuing. Bloodlines however determine the very character of a sorcerer's magic and frequently impact on other aspects of the character as well. Bloodlines are a good trade, provided you know what kind of character you're looking to create, and build appropriately.He's not arguing revelations are better than bloodlines. He's arguing that revelations compared to domains is better than bloodlines compared to school powers.
A to B is better than C to D.
Do you think bloodlines are a good trade compared to schools? And do you think that trade is better than the trade of revelations compared to domains?
Remember that even if revelations are only equal to domains, they still win if you think bloodlines SUCK compared to schools.
Flavor =/= power or value.
We have:
5 bonus feats
School power at 1st, 6~8th and capstone power for your school of specialization and
Expanding power for each new spell released as you can technically know them all.
And the school powers are generally straight up better than the bloodline powers -- they are usable more often and do things from level 1 like teleport as a supernatural ability or free rerolls each round, plus bonuses to initiative with free no surprise.
Compared to:
3 bonus feats
Bloodline powers -- typically giving a little resistance and dinky rays/claws that are essentially useless and level 9 powers that barely muster to level 3 spell powers.
A lightweight arcana
Are there some fabulous bloodlines? Sure. They are not the norm. Instead you have crap powers like the third level arcane bloodline power that 1: Requires you to have already spent a feat, 2: requires you to expend another resource in order to use it and are typically exceptionally limited times a day.
Now compare to the cleric and oracle:
Cleric
2 Domains -- typically with dinky powers but allowing extra spells that are generally nice.
Oracle
1 "curse" that typically grants extreme abilities (blindsight, immunity to fatigue and exhaustion). The 'curse' is the oracle equivalent to the sorcerer's arcana and in general it is a straight up better ability.
Mystery which:
1. Grant more powers of at minimum the same power level of the sorcerer's bloodline.
2. Powers that are use able more often than sorcerer powers (blast multiple times per day)
3. With choice of power each time you get one.
4. Capstones that typically grant at least as much as sorcerer's get and then give free metamagic on top of it.
5. More spells known. Not only do Oracles get their mystery spells but they freely gain either all the cure or inflict spells too. Supposedly they "need" these but then there are spells the sorcerer simply "needs" as well.
6. More skill points. There is literally no excuse for this. There is no reason the oracle should have more skill points than the sorcerer.
This is still ignoring the fact that even in support for these classes the oracle gets the better deal. For example they can take extra powers as a feat on a 1 for 1 exchange (the sorcerer could be argued to do the same with the eldritch heritage feats but that's level dependent and requires a feat tax and is open to everyone givng their toys away), and the oracle feat straight up gives extra uses where as the sorcerer feat requires you to jump through a hurdle, then spend a swift action and even then only can be taken once (not once per power) and still only gives one extra use.
This ignore the fact that divines have better baseline abilities (armor use, BAB and hit dice, et al). Supposedly this makes up for a weaker spell list. I call BS, but hey, maybe you agree.
TL:DR
Oracles get choice of each power, more powers, more uses of those powers, earlier with more spells known, a curse that is flat out better than the arcana sorcerer's get, have more skill points, better supporting feats and that is on top of all the things divines get over arcane spell casters.
Of course they got a better deal, and I am willing to flat out state they are mechanically better than sorcerers, because they are on every front.
There are also other ways to add spells to the sorcerer's repertory. What was that magic device called again, the one that lets him cast off scrolls using his slots instead of expending the scroll?Dunno, never seen it used.
It's not a device, it's an archetype ability for the false priest at level 9.
Which I don't. Bloodlines have infinitely more flavor than schools do. Wizards for the most part are cut from the same cloth they're essentially the same no matter what specialisation they might be pursuing. Bloodlines however determine the very character of a sorcerer's magic and frequently impact on other aspects of the character as well. Bloodlines are a good trade, provided you know what kind of character you're looking to create, and build appropriately.He's not arguing revelations are better than bloodlines. He's arguing that revelations compared to domains is better than bloodlines compared to school powers.
A to B is better than C to D.
Do you think bloodlines are a good trade compared to schools? And do you think that trade is better than the trade of revelations compared to domains?
Remember that even if revelations are only equal to domains, they still win if you think bloodlines SUCK compared to schools.
Schools are pretty awesome and have plenty of flavor. They are also usually mechanically strong and you can swap things you don't like with subschools. Schools can do everything flavorwise for Wizards that Bloodlines do for Sorcerers. Your school can define you just easily your bloodline.
Finally, the reason Oracle looks so good in comparison to the Cleric is that in PF the Cleric is pretty miserable. Oh sure it gets good casting, two good saves and 3/4th BAB. But it's actual abilities amount to some terrible to ok domains and channel. It doesn't even get a capstone! And it's channel is based of an otherwise unneeded stat. Oh sure it's still tier 1 thanks to it's spells, but at least Oracle has real class abilities.
He's not arguing revelations are better than bloodlines. He's arguing that revelations compared to domains is better than bloodlines compared to school powers.
A to B is better than C to D.
Do you think bloodlines are a good trade compared to schools? And do you think that trade is better than the trade of revelations compared to domains?
Remember that even if revelations are only equal to domains, they still win if you think bloodlines SUCK compared to schools.
The wizards have some really good schools and some that are not so great. And the sorcerers also have a few good ones. I dont think bloodlines suck compared to schools but pehaps dreamspun and destined suck a bit compared to the admixture, forsigth and teleportation schools. Just like universal and generation School is unhappy in the Company of sageblood.
Flavor =/= power or value..I think we're going to have to fundamentally disagree on that. For me... flavor is the point of playing in the first place.
And how pray tell do schools have less flavor then bloodlines? Because it looks the same to me.
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haha, they have less flavor because they are mechanically stronger. Don't you know that mechanical power is inversely proportional to how much flavor it has? It takes real flavor to have a lv1 commoner in a lv15 campaign. Heck, I've heard of a player beating a great wyrm red dragon because of flavor. because flavor is right in line with the rule of awesome.
^I don't support at all.
Flavor =/= power or value..I think we're going to have to fundamentally disagree on that. For me... flavor is the point of playing in the first place.
If you accept that flavor can replace balance then you should be aware that you are in the extreme minority. Many of us believe that flavor and balance are seperate goals. Your position is so much the minority that you should not participate in balance discussions without disclaiming yourself every single post.
When having a discussion on balance, be sure to include this on every post:
My views on this topic are extremely rare. I understand that I am an outlier but I feel the need to post so that others may experience my strange views. In general, I find that flavor and balance can trade against one another in a game and still be playable. Nay! I say good flavor = good balance.
Personally, I like the way DSP handled Psions and Wilders. Wilders have more raw power, but are not necessarily more powerful. DSP even preserved the delayed "spell level" access even though both are spont and psions are not delayed.
One of the issues I have with sorcerers vs wizards is that sorcerers are both MORE limited AND do not have as many slots as 90% of wizards. A non-universalist wizard ends up with as many or more spells per day than a sorcerer until very late game.
Sorcerer's only real niche is the virtues of spont casting and having charisma as a main stat.
Half elf and Half Orc do not get those extra spells for favored class.I am not sure I would count Mnemonic Vestments, Razmirian Priests, the human/half elf/half orc/aasimar available extra spells FCB, Paragon Surge-Expanded Arcana or Mongrel Mage as hate really.
At this point there are a mass of different ways for sorcerers to know a very large number of spells and to access a whole load of others. The spellcasting delay is annoying but not nearly as huge an advantage as some think.
Yes, they can. They count as human and can thus use human favored class bonuses.
Expanded Arcana? Are you kidding me. Oh wow, one extra spell known for a feat. Thanks!You missed the paragon surge part of that equation. It's a combo that grants you situational access to every spell on the sorcerer spell list.
You could be a Sage Sorcerer and then that INT goes right to your primary casting stat. Of course it is only an enhancement bonus so even if it was to CHA it wouldn't help at all if you had a headband. A Paragon Surge using Half-Elf Razmiran Priest sorcerer has an incredibly wide and readily available spell selection. Their 9th level ability is the real deal in terms of versatility even discounting how incredibly easy it is to abuse with high cost spells.
Paragon surge was "FAQ'd" to only allow one selection of Expanded Acana per day.
It's not infinite spell access or more than two per day.
EDIT: FAQ in the Paizo way of unprinted Errata.
You mean like Dragon Disciple? ^_^
Yes, something like that, but what I was saying was that certain bloodlines should have not been created or given the sorc a better chance to survive and contribute in melee. Giving a sorc claws and a strength bonus is a trap.
You mean like Dragon Disciple? ^_^Yes, something like that, but what I was saying was that certain bloodlines should have not been created or given the sorc a better chance to survive and contribute in melee. Giving a sorc claws and a strength bonus is a trap.
Meh, I'm good with some such options existing, as some people want to play them and there are ways to focus it so as to not be a horrible choice. But yeah it shouldn't be a primary focus for the class obviously and shouldn't be something given to people not focused on that option.
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You mean like Dragon Disciple? ^_^Yes, something like that, but what I was saying was that certain bloodlines should have not been created or given the sorc a better chance to survive and contribute in melee. Giving a sorc claws and a strength bonus is a trap.
I don't think you've ever seen a half-orc abyssal bloodline sorcerer in action.
Ditto for a half-orc Dragon bloodline sorc who then enters Dragon Disciple.
They are SCARY.
Paragon surge was "FAQ'd" to only allow one selection of Expanded Acana per day.
It's not infinite spell access or more than two per day.
EDIT: FAQ in the Paizo way of unprinted Errata.
Even one spell selection per day is extremely useful for a sorcerer; it grants access to every "almost never use this spell but when I need it, I need it" spell without having to predict the need and buy scroll after scroll. Almost a must-have for half-elf oracle as it eliminates one of the primary oracle weaknesses. Still great for a sorcerer.
Why murder to get it when you already have it?
Why murder to get it when you already have it?
For the schadenfreude, obviously.
You mean like Dragon Disciple? ^_^Yes, something like that, but what I was saying was that certain bloodlines should have not been created or given the sorc a better chance to survive and contribute in melee. Giving a sorc claws and a strength bonus is a trap.I don't think you've ever seen a half-orc abyssal bloodline sorcerer in action.
Ditto for a half-orc Dragon bloodline sorc who then enters Dragon Disciple.
They are SCARY.
I am going to need some convincing to think a poor BAB sorc(no multiclassing or PRC) is scary in melee. Admittedly I only made a half-hearted attempt at it, but it was not worth the trouble of me trying any harder.
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What I do have a gripe with is the fact that, whenever the Sorcerer gets a new spell level, he will have one single spell to fill his new slots.What I think you're overlooking here is the sorcerer's vast repertoire of metamagic possibilities. Sure, he's only got a single spell of the new, higher level. But he can also do a lot of cool magic with lower-level spells bumped up through metamagic. On the fly. Any way his feats let him roll. All for the price of casting as a full-round action. That's major.
There are also other ways to add spells to the sorcerer's repertory. What was that magic device called again, the one that lets him cast off scrolls using his slots instead of expending the scroll?
Mnemonic VestmentPrice 5,000 gp; Aura strong transmutation; CL 17th; Weight 1 lb.
The surface of this delicate-looking blue silk robe is adorned with tiny embossed runes across its entire surface. If the wearer is a spontaneous caster, once per day she may use a spell slot to cast a spell from a written source (such as a scroll or spellbook) as if she knew that spell. The spell must be on her spell list, the same spell level or lower than the expended spell slot, and the same type of spell (arcane or divine) as the spell slot expended. The caster must also understand the written source (such as using Decipher Script or read magic) and be carrying it. Activating the robe is not an action, but casting the spell otherwise works as normal, including casting time, providing components or foci, and so on. Using a mnemonic vestment's properties does not consume the written source.
Note that you don't need scrolls, you need a written source. So a spellbook work and is way cheaper.
Nothing beside the cost stop you from having multiple vestments , so having access to this ability multiple times in a day.
Then there is the:
Ring of Spell Knowledge
Price Varies; Aura moderate or strong (no school); CL 7th; Weight —
Type I 1,500 gp; Type II 6,000 gp; Type III 13,500; Type IV 24,000 gp
This ring comes in four types: ring of spell knowledge I, ring of spell knowledge II, ring of spell knowledge III, and ring of spell knowledge IV. All of them are useful only to spontaneous arcane spellcasters. Through study, the wearer can gain the knowledge of a single spell in addition to those allotted by her class and level. A ring of spell knowledge I can hold 1st-level spells only, a ring of spell knowledge II 1st- or 2nd-level spells, a ring of spell knowledge III spells of 3rd level or lower, and a ring of spell knowledge IV up to 4th-level spells.
A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class' spell list.
Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer's class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).
It allow access to spells of other arcane lists. Bard, witch ... hummm.
From Osterick's Guide to the Dragon Disciple:
The Green Outcast
½ Orc 4 Crossblooded Sorcerer (Orc/Green Draconic)/1 Barbarian/4DD
Str 16+2 racial+4
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 14
Traits: Get racial trait toothy.
1 Sorcerer1, Intimidating Prowess
2 Barbarian1
3 Sorcerer2, Skill Focus: Intimidate
4 Sorcerer3, Dragon Resistances
5 Sorcerer4, Still Spell
6 DD 1
7 DD 2, Power Attack, Noxious Bite
9 DD 4, Ability focus, Breath Weapon
The real key to this build is the bite and the intimidation. He uses the intimidation to put the fear into them and the bite to make them nauseated. He has quite a bit of capability with it, and because his element is Acid, it makes him more of a debuffer, which is cool. He really isn’t too bad at it. One level of Rogue/Thug or the enforcer feat with a merciful weapon later on can make him into a scaring machine if the campaign fits, along with dazzling display, but I will probably focus some more into melee and use the debuffing and blasting to soften them up and close in for the kill. Either that or go dimensional Dervish starting at level 11.
You think Sorcerers are underpowered?
My friend, you need to take a look at the Sorcerer from 3.5. THAT is "underpowered"
The Sorcerer is now one of the most powerful classes in the game, and the Wizard is only as broken as your DM gives you time to prepare for - which, honestly, isn't that hard to either counteract or just mess with.
The Sorcerer has backup tricks via his Bloodlines that make him effective even if the DM has answers ready for every spell he can cast.
Now, the ARCANIST. The Arcanist isn't broken by any stretch. But hoo-BOY is he powerful - and honestly could very well put the Wizard out of a job plenty of times. Combine the preparedness of a Wizard with the on-the-fly spellcasting of the Sorcerer, and a bag of tricks that's as varied as Bloodlines yet as tech as School Abilities.
The Sorcerer is Son Goku
The Wizard is Batman
The Arcanist is The Doctor.
Beware the first two but FEAR the third.
Exploiter Wizard easily replaces the Arcanist in most scenarios for the exact reason that OP rails against the Sorceror: the spell progression being faster. Quick Study and Potent Magic are really the only two Exploits you need to leave the other Arcanes in the dust. Honestly, this would have been better as a Witch archetype than a Wizard one, IMO, if only for the fact that Witches look balanced compared to the Wizard. Being able to take Extra Arcane Reservoir once pretty much shores up any concerns about running out of points if you're reasonably good at prepping spells each day.
I'd be fine if all future Paizo material left out the Wizard for archetypes and class features, as well as ceasing to add Sorc/Wiz spells that aren't content/setting-specific. Sure, you can have your anti-construct spells for Numeria, but you can leave out things like Barrow Haze (clearly designed for a Witch, somehow on the Wiz list too). Wizards/Sorcs have enough spells and Wizards certainly don't need to poach the best class features from every new class that comes out.
FYI, still waiting on that errata to Wood Wizard to move the Sirocco spell up from 4th to 6th, where it belongs. Just sayin'.
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It's not a device, it's an archetype ability for the false priest at level 9.There are also other ways to add spells to the sorcerer's repertory. What was that magic device called again, the one that lets him cast off scrolls using his slots instead of expending the scroll?Dunno, never seen it used.
There is a device and it is lovely. Mnemonic Vestment. Works for Oracles and other spontaneous casters too.
I agree that waiting an extra level for your bloodline spells as a sorcerer sucks. On the other hand, I really enjoy playing sorcerers.
I am currently playing one of the supposedly subpar bloodlines, The Maestro, in a home game with my Kitsune Sorceress. In the hands (paws?) of an enchantment-focused race, Maestro sorcerers shine pretty well with lots of enchantment-focused bloodline abilities. It's been super fun playing her.
Hmm
Why murder to get it when you already have it?
Yeah, that was a brain fart.
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Does anyone honestly believe that Sorcerers would outshine Wizards if we were to remove the level adjustment and allow them to get spells at the same pace as wizards? Look at how few spells Sorcerers get.
They already outshine wizards...Wide margin.
Look at how few spells a wizard can cast. Look at their lack of bloodline abilities. Look how they need that stupid spell book in order to cast spells. Look how they are always older. So on and so forth.
Want to outshine a wizard? Destroy/hide their spell book and wait a day...Blinding a wizard can also be pretty impressive on this end.
Wizards really have weaknesses.
I will note that some DMs don't enforce the material component of spells, and then can make the wizards without enschew materials seems much more even with sorcerers. If your a DM and doing this, strongly suggest giving sorcerers a bonus magic-related feat to reflect this. Material components are quite annoying to keep track of, some even require refrigeration or are subject to local laws regarding possession, but this is supposed to be worth a feat to remove.
Some of those bloodline abilities are quite amazing, too. I especially am fond of those ones that allow enchanting things not normally enchant-able.
I have no idea what you are talking about with rogues. Rogues are awesome, and if played right, on par with a Wizard. So far in my games I have seen Rogues f%$* the DM far more consistently then Wizards. Of course that requires quite a bit of creativity and guile.
Emphasis Mine.
We need a separate thread for this, because I would like to hear these campaigns where a rogue was on par with a wizard. All I can imagine is a huge surplus of wealth and a conniving player (but with such a combination class wouldn't matter).
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One thing I have seriously considered houseruling is that instead of getting bloodline spells a level after they get the normal spells of that level, sorcerers get them one level earlier than they get normal spells of that level (when wizards would get that level of spells) plus the ability to cast it once per day (unmodified by ability score) or else to cast 0 spells of that level per day but you can cast your bloodline spell if you get bonus spells per day because of ability score bonuses. Or the combination of those.
From Osterick's Guide to the Dragon Disciple:
The Green Outcast
½ Orc 4 Crossblooded Sorcerer (Orc/Green Draconic)/1 Barbarian/4DDStr 16+2 racial+4
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 14Traits: Get racial trait toothy.
1 Sorcerer1, Intimidating Prowess
2 Barbarian1
3 Sorcerer2, Skill Focus: Intimidate
4 Sorcerer3, Dragon Resistances
5 Sorcerer4, Still Spell
6 DD 1
7 DD 2, Power Attack, Noxious Bite
9 DD 4, Ability focus, Breath WeaponThe real key to this build is the bite and the intimidation. He uses the intimidation to put the fear into them and the bite to make them nauseated. He has quite a bit of capability with it, and because his element is Acid, it makes him more of a debuffer, which is cool. He really isn’t too bad at it. One level of Rogue/Thug or the enforcer feat with a merciful weapon later on can make him into a scaring machine if the campaign fits, along with dazzling display, but I will probably focus some more into melee and use the debuffing and blasting to soften them up and close in for the kill. Either that or go dimensional Dervish starting at level 11.
Is this a reply to my post or did you post a build just to be posting?
Does anyone honestly believe that Sorcerers would outshine Wizards if we were to remove the level adjustment and allow them to get spells at the same pace as wizards? Look at how few spells Sorcerers get.They already outshine wizards...Wide margin.
Look at how few spells a wizard can cast. Look at their lack of bloodline abilities. Look how they need that stupid spell book in order to cast spells. Look how they are always older. So on and so forth.
Want to outshine a wizard? Destroy/hide their spell book and wait a day...Blinding a wizard can also be pretty impressive on this end.
Wizards really have weaknesses.
I will note that some DMs don't enforce the material component of spells, and then can make the wizards without enschew materials seems much more even with sorcerers. If your a DM and doing this, strongly suggest giving sorcerers a bonus magic-related feat to reflect this. Material components are quite annoying to keep track of, some even require refrigeration or are subject to local laws regarding possession, but this is supposed to be worth a feat to remove.
Some of those bloodline abilities are quite amazing, too. I especially am fond of those ones that allow enchanting things not normally enchant-able.
Wizard cast more than enough spells to make it through an adventuring day, and that is by level 7 most of time. Of course this assume the player is smart and does not cast spells for the sake of casting, so they don't get wasted.
Taking a book is almost impossible to do and keep the wizard alive. It is easier to kill him.
Most groups I have played with enforce material component cost for all casters so I would not say most do not enforce them. As for components being illegal, I have not seen this. Maybe as a house rule, but I dont know of it in any rule books. None of them require refrigeration either. The book says you always have enough of the ones that dont cost gold.
I have no idea what you are talking about with rogues. Rogues are awesome, and if played right, on par with a Wizard. So far in my games I have seen Rogues f%$* the DM far more consistently then Wizards. Of course that requires quite a bit of creativity and guile.Emphasis Mine.
We need a separate thread for this, because I would like to hear these campaigns where a rogue was on par with a wizard. All I can imagine is a huge surplus of wealth and a conniving player (but with such a combination class wouldn't matter).
I really want to see how this happens. My guess are
A. houserules in playB. someone is messing the rules up
C. someone has no idea what they are doing
D. this is a symptom of playstyle
E. Maybe some other answer, that I will have to explain when/if an explanation is given.
Not really houserules. When you fall on someone, they also take the damage right? Our rogues have enjoyed jumping out of trees onto monsters and doing both sneak attack and falling damage. I put the group in a supposably unwinnable situation. They were supposed to run. The rogue dropped out of a tree onto the big baddie and did a ridiculous amount of damage. One shotted the boss.
Quite a liberal use of sneak attack, most GMs wouldn't allow it as the premise of striking a vital spot while literally falling on an enemy. That's ignoring any ruckus that would be caused by falling out of a tree. Also wouldn't any fall damage be dealt to both parties?
Another situation involved a rogue soloing a tower full of baddies using a wand of grease, and various methods of pushing the monsters off of the side of the building (aided by the greased floor). He was knocking out the supports for the tower he was fighting on and leveled the place. As the building fell he jumped from the top with a ring of feather fall. This encounter should of required the entire party.
With the wealth and foresight to buy the right items, any character from any class could do the same. That is player skill.
Anyway, seems like fun, but it doesn't in anyway imply the rogue being on par with the wizard. Oh and sorry for the thread derail. Continue with the woes of le sorc.
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First, that is a houserule. People are not objects so don't follow the "falling objects" rules.
Second, even if they did, it isn't an attack, it is merely an application of damage from a falling object, so no Sneak Attack.
Third, even if it did, what amounts to a single attack, dealing about 1d6 damage (plus 1x Sneak Attack), with no Str or Dex modifier, is hardly "ridiculous damage".
In the second scenario I'm scratching my head as to why NONE of said monsters passed the DC 11 Reflex save to avoid being affected by the Grease spell on the floor, and your Rogue succeeded on ALL of his Bull Rush checks (which would not be affected by teh Grease spell in any way regardless, so another houserule), and NONE of said monsters managed to get an attack in at any point.
Seems like a pair of highly contrived scenarios there.
I have no idea what you are talking about with rogues. Rogues are awesome, and if played right, on par with a Wizard. So far in my games I have seen Rogues f%$* the DM far more consistently then Wizards. Of course that requires quite a bit of creativity and guile.Emphasis Mine.
We need a separate thread for this, because I would like to hear these campaigns where a rogue was on par with a wizard. All I can imagine is a huge surplus of wealth and a conniving player (but with such a combination class wouldn't matter).
I really want to see how this happens. My guess are
A. houserules in play
B. someone is messing the rules up
C. someone has no idea what they are doing
D. this is a symptom of playstyle
E. Maybe some other answer, that I will have to explain when/if an explanation is given.Not really houserules. When you fall on someone, they also take the damage right? Our rogues have enjoyed jumping out of trees onto monsters and doing both sneak attack and falling damage. I put the group in a supposably unwinnable situation. They were supposed to run. The rogue dropped out of a tree onto the big baddie and did a ridiculous amount of damage. One shotted the boss.
Another situation involved a rogue soloing a tower full of baddies using a wand of grease, and various methods of pushing the monsters off of the side of the building (aided by the greased floor). He was knocking out the supports for the tower he was fighting on and leveled the place. As the building fell he jumped from the top with a ring of feather fall. This encounter should of required the entire party.
Actually there is no rules that say jumping on the causes any sort of damage to include falling damage, and how did a rogue one shot a boss? Even if he got sneak attack and critted, and did max damage the boss should have still survived unless it was a d6 or d8 class, in which case it should have had some type of defense up if it was coming to you instead of making you fight on its terms.
Grease from a wand has really low save. They(some) should have made it unless it was just a bad dice day for the GM. How are you knocking the supports out from a tower that I am assuming is completed, and why didn't they just surround you or focus fire? Your AC was likely not that high. Unless it was a bunch of mooks ,or you are a really good optimiser you should have been dead inside of 3 rounds. And how are you knocking out the supports on the top of building. Supporting beams should be beneath where you are.
And how was any of this due to you being a rogue?
Full BAB characters outdamage a rogue. So can some casters if they care to do so.
As for the support beams how could this have not been done by another class?
I think your group plays loosely with the rules, and that is more of factor than the "rogue".
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I have no idea what you are talking about with rogues. Rogues are awesome, and if played right, on par with a Wizard. So far in my games I have seen Rogues f%$* the DM far more consistently then Wizards. Of course that requires quite a bit of creativity and guile.Emphasis Mine.
We need a separate thread for this, because I would like to hear these campaigns where a rogue was on par with a wizard. All I can imagine is a huge surplus of wealth and a conniving player (but with such a combination class wouldn't matter).
I really want to see how this happens. My guess are
A. houserules in play
B. someone is messing the rules up
C. someone has no idea what they are doing
D. this is a symptom of playstyle
E. Maybe some other answer, that I will have to explain when/if an explanation is given.Not really houserules. When you fall on someone, they also take the damage right? Our rogues have enjoyed jumping out of trees onto monsters and doing both sneak attack and falling damage. I put the group in a supposably unwinnable situation. They were supposed to run. The rogue dropped out of a tree onto the big baddie and did a ridiculous amount of damage. One shotted the boss.
Another situation involved a rogue soloing a tower full of baddies using a wand of grease, and various methods of pushing the monsters off of the side of the building (aided by the greased floor). He was knocking out the supports for the tower he was fighting on and leveled the place. As the building fell he jumped from the top with a ring of feather fall. This encounter should of required the entire party.
Must have been one hell of a high tree.
And it seems to be a combination of B,C,D and E on wraithstrikes list :)I meen i like rogues but the stories here have nothing to do with the rogue class. This is about the DM going along with a plan and telling a great story. Nothing wrong with that, but any class could have done it.
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Don't be so harsh guys. It's clear the only thing that is needed for rogues to be good is to completely ignore all the other rules.