VegasHoneyBadger's page

Already covered. In works in 5e because Strength covers more things vs Dex, meaning Dex is less of a god stat.

Like what? I am still learning 5e and haven't learned all the nuances.

VegasHoneyBadger wrote:

With all of the melee focused bloodlines I am wondering if they should be made 3/4 BaB and D8, albiet with something else taken away. Look at their new archtype for example.

Actually PrC's like the Dragon Disciple for the Dragonblooded sorcerer are the ways that's accomplished, by granting natural attacks, an improved bab for the class levels plus attribute raises. I think non core books have introduced similar PrC's for other melee oriented bloodlines.

If that were the case then the claws ability would only be present in the dragon bloodline. The fact that other bloodlines get the claws ability suggests that Paizo was considering the sorcerer to be melee without dragon disciple.

DnD 5 gives dex to damage and dex to attack for all finesse weapons without a feat. Pathfinder needs to take a hint and stop penalizing dex based characters with these unnecessary feat taxes and penalties. Unless you are severely optimizing, Str based characters are still more effective even without the feat tax, there is no reason to call dex to damage op.

The part that makes no sense is at level 9. I can throw one attacks at +6, or I can throw four attacks at +7/+7/+2/+2.

Everything about this class suggested that Paizo wanted to make monks full BaB without admitting they are full BaB. They get full BaB when flurrying, and at level 3 to their CMB. With a feat they have full BaB for everything but single attacks, or attacks with weapons they can't flurry with.

I understand they need a way to penalize people who decide to take a single level dip into monk as it can be a powerful dip. I think it would of been better to make them full BaB, but wait till level 2 or 3 for a few of the features like Wisdom to AC. They should be waiting for 3 for that anyway as that can be OP really quickly.

I think it is interesting to point out that DND 5, is giving dex to damage and attack for all finesse weapons without needing a feat. I see quite a few problems with this new system, but at least they got something right. Sorcerers also do not have the level adjustment. Hint Hint Paizo

Deadly Finesse

You is, like, well wicked wit' dat blade, bro. Innit.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Dex 15+
When you score a melee critical hit with a Finesse weapon, you gain a bonus to damage equal to your BAB plus your Dexterity bonus. If the critical modifier is x3, this bonus is doubled (and tripled for x4, etc.).

So a Dex 18, BAB+3 rogue4 does +7 damage. If using shortswords, that's +0.7 damage per hit on average. With a rapier, +1.05.

A Dex 24, BAB+12 slayer12 does +20. With a keen rapier that averages +6 per hit on average.

So it's modest at low levels (where IMHO the martials are OK and the rogue is passable) but comes online nicely at higher levels.

Yeah.... no.. Hell no. At the very least Dex should be multiplied, I see how you are adding level but since crits are not common it is far from good enough. In your example, criting would not be enough to do more damage then a Str based normally does. Yeah I critted him, and still did less damage then you :-(

I can kind of see a rogue/wizard hybrid coming out of this and it certainly is a different approach. Studied attack from the investigator might fit better than sneak attack depending on how you further develop this class. What are its armor and weapon proficiencies? Not sure if it is purposefully vague but what spell list does it draw from? Also, what is your reasoning for limiting arcane bond to wands?

I am starting to realize it is a hybrid class and I am thinking about adding trapfinding to the closs.

I think giving it the same proficiencies as rogue would work. Light armor only.

It draws from all spell lists.

Calling it an arcane bond is a little deciving as it doesn't give him an extra spell per day, as he doesn't cast spells, and doesn't have any penalty for losing it. I made it a wand because that is what he uses. I am thinking about making it a familiar/intellent item. I would look at the magus archtype.

I also love that everyone wanting dex-to-damage be on-par with Strength are going "WAH! WHY CAN'T WE HAVE DEX TO DAMAGE AND MAKE DEX AS GOOD AS STRENGTH IN MELEE - SO UNFAIR!!!" without also touching on making Strength very useful for Ranged? Double Standard much?

Strength is already very useful for ranged. Composite Bow and thrown weapons both use Str for damage, and as far as I know there isn't any feats that allow dex to damage for ranged.

The problem is dex fighters aren't any fun to play as they are feat starved and ineffective. I don't see any reason why someone would want a str based archer and it also doesn't make much sense. Dex based fighters make sense and need to have some more feats to make them playable. If I have to take 4 or 5 feats to be on par with a fighter then something is wrong.

I am looking for feedback. Thoughts?

Artificer

Alignment: Any
Hit Dice: D8
3/4 BaB

Class Skills:

The artificers's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill ranks per level 6 + Intellegence modifier

Good Will and Reflex
Poor Fortitude

Spell Book
At first level an artificer gets a spell book with a number of spells equal to two plus his intellegence modifier. These spells can be from any spell book but must be first level spells. An artificer cannot cast these spells but can use wands and craft magical items as though he can. At fourth level an artificer can add second level spells to his spell book. At eighth level he can add third level spells and every four levels afterwards he is able to add the next level spells. Every two levels an artificer adds two new spells to his spell book.

Bonded Item
An artificer gets a wand as a bonded item. This wand holds a number of charges equal to five plus his intellegence modifier, and it recharges two charges per day. The wand can cast any spell from his spell list, but the choice must be made at first level. Every time an artificer gains a level he can change the spell the wand uses to another spell in his spell book.

Scribe Scroll
Artificers gain scribe scroll at first level

Wand Training
When using a wand an artificer can use his own level for spell duration and overcoming spell resistance. He also can use his Charisma modifier for spell DC. Artificers do not need to make a UMD check when casting spells from wands that are on their spell list.

Magical Device Knowledge
Artificers gain a bonus on UMD checks equal to half their level. They can take 10 on any UMD check as a full round action even during combat.

Rushed Item Creation
Artificers can create magical devices for half the cost but any item created in this manner can only be used by the artificer.

Sneak Attack
Artificers gain sneak attack at third level. Every three levels artificers can do an additional 1d6 points of damage

Craft Wand
Artificers gain craft wand at third level

Craft Wonderous Item
Artificers gain craft wonderous item at fifth level

No. You made a single build for a Str-based fighter and did nothing more except expect me to build a comparable setup. This is a very poor strategy for a number of reasons, but by far the largest is differing systems mastery. I do not, as a matter of course, build Fighters--

This much is obvious. If you did build fighters then you wouldn't need to ask for the numbers. Build a few and you will see more clearly then any set of numbers can illustrate. Try to build both and see the starvation of feats and lack of effectiveness in every dex build.

Or, we have the fact that you took Combat Expertise, something that provides no benefit to your build and something that I would never take-- this thus skews the data because I would have, effectively, a 'free' feat slot over your setup.

Combat Expertise is preparing for next level where he will take improved trip or disarm. The fact that I choose one that provides no immediate benefit to throw you a soft ball. I am telling you with this less then optimal build I will still either out preform you, or stay even.

We also have the problem of it providing a snapshot rather than full data. A single level is not useful as conclusive data, it is useful as a singular data point. Conclusive data should provide the same builds...

Due to the nature of the system the number of permutations is far too much to calculate and give you solid numbers. If there are 100 feats, and there are far more then that, then a level 4 human has 1000000000000 different feat combinations.

I could build both dex and str based, but then I could be accused of intentionally gimping the dex builds to prove my point. If you want to join this debate then you will need to do a little research on your own. I can't hold your hand for you.

2. Getting dex to damage for a single feat (either in addition to or especially instead of finesse) is quite certainly EXTREMELY OP.

How so? Make a character that is OP to demonstrate, and I will make a more effective Str build. Even if you give dex to attack and damage for free, Str builds are at least just as effective, if not more. The only stipulation I would post is one preventing dex builds from using dex and a half with a two handed weapon like elven curved blade.

Dexterity represents coordination and agility in Pathfinder. Nowhere in the rules does it have anything to do with speed. Indeed, the only stats related to speed normally are Con for running endurance, and Str for being able to leap higher and farther.

Con would just affect how long you can run fast, and str would just be how far you can leap. Check out chases as this is the best indicator of speed.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/chases

Unless the chase involves climbing, dex is the biggest indicator on who can run faster.

The Str fighter can turn a miss on a weak point into a hit by brutally smashing through defenses and armor, where a weak person can't force the issue. It's sort of a Hardness argument...do you really expect someone with a 20 Dex to do +5 damage against a wall?

No, I would expect any dex to damage feat would involve precision damage. I am not sure the rules regarding precision damage and hardness. I am also thinking about is martial arts and bricks. Dex or Wisdom is used to break those bricks, not strength. It is worth considering whether or not dex should beat hardness, but this is really clouding the issue.

The adage in the martial arts world that a skilled big man will beat an equally skilled (and presumably more dexterous) smaller man has endured for centuries.

I don't know what your experience with martial arts is, but mine has taught me differently. With unskilled combatants you are absolutely correct, but skill tends to remove the size advantage.

Also, armor endured for centuries because armor worked. The thing that killed armor was not the invention of the rapier...it was gunpowder,

This is an excellent point, but I have a different conclusion. The reason armor endured for centuries and armor worked was because for the average soldier armor was far superior. With 5 or 10 point buys, armored fighters should win everytime, but with 20, 25, or 30 point buys, f+@@ man that dex fighter should be running through armored gumbies.

because skill can translate directly to more damage. But just because you have better hand-eye coordination doesn't help you damage a brick better, and it blows suspension of disbelief for many people. Not to mention the fact that getting SMALLER means your ability to hit and do damage actually goes UP...which is passing strange.

It also means that housecats beat dogs. Which is also weird.

You keep running back to the brick arguement and all that does is cloud the issue. No one here is complaining that dex based characters can't hurt bricks and walls, we are complaining that our agility doesn't allow us to slice weak squishy flesh any easier.

Lets simplify the arguement a bit. We have two people Alpha and Beta, both of these people are fighting an unarmored soldier. The soldier didn't have time to don his armor lets say. Both Alpha and Beta have 10 strength, but Alpha has 20 dex whereas Beta has 10. Skill levels are identical, both are level 5 fighters. Will Alpha do more damage each hit, or will there hits be just as effective? We are not talking about who will land more hits.

I think you may need to watch a few more martial arts movies yourself, as most of the heros from that tend to be ripped. They aren't built like body builders, but no one who actually fights as their living is. Go google "Bruce Leee Shirtless," or "Jackie Chan shirtless." Those are not the bodies of a low strength characters.

Just because they tend to be ripped doesn't mean they need to be. People who dedicate themselves to martial arts tend to work out, but that doesn't mean they are any less effective when age starts to sap the strength. Like I said, ask an 80 year black belt whether or not he needs strength to take you out. Just because it is best demonstrated with monk like characters doesn't change the fact that dex can be used to inflict damage just like strength.

VegasHoneyBadger wrote:

kestral287 wrote:

I guess my confusion stems from the fact that these numbers, despite being run often enough and in an obvious enough place that everybody has them but me, cannot be readily provided. Discourse has a concept known as the burden of proof, which means that it's the responsibility of a party making a claim to support that claim. Where is this support then? Where are the numbers.

Because a great deal of the balance of such a feat would stem not just from which is higher but the margin by which one is higher than the other, which in turn would allow one to decide on whether or not it's fair and reasonable for such to exist.

People aren't providing you with numbers because it is easy to calculate for yourself.

Funny how that "burden of proof" thing works, isn't it?

Also 20 point buy is the norm at this point, for the record.

So basically I provide you with the proof you asked for and the only thing you get from that is a 15 point buy is not standard?

Perfect

Dex as damage isn't core because it doesn't make sense. Adding dex to damage does not represent the "thousand cuts" approach to combat. That would be more like basing your number of attacks off dex.

We could base our number attacks off of dex and that would make sense, but would require more work to calculate. Everything is easier if we just give a bonus based on dex and envision multiple attacks. Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it untrue. The fact is you do not need much strength to kill someone, and someone who is agile is able to land a blow in just the right place much easier then someone who is strong and clumsy.

Theres no reason a dagger should be better at sneak attack than a great axe. A great axe should maybe be harder to sneak up on someone with, but if you can sneak up on someone with a great axe, it'll be more damaging than a dagger.

If I get a knife in your back, I can twist it. You don't have that kind of control over a great axe. With a knife I can aim for more vital areas easier as it is light and small. Swinging a big axe you don't aim for small targets, you are just trying to hit the bastard. I think the problem lies with lack of imagination on your part.

If you want to simulate that feel of the rouge cutting someones throat silently from behind, then house ruling coup de graces to be easier on a sneak attack is probably what you are looking for. Also, death attack is already what you are looking for.

No, I am not talking about death attacks. I am talking about hitting windpipes, and groins. Using a clumsy great axe makes that much much harder to do.

You need str to hurt people and put them in the real world. Being very dexterous doesn't do it unless you are using weapons designed to take advantage of our anatomy and easily puncture into the squishy bits. That's why rapiers have a high crit range.

I am guessing you don't watch much martial arts. Find an 80 year old that has studied and ask him whether or not he need strength to hurt you

VegasHoneyBadger wrote:

Human Level 4 Fighter

Stats
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8

1 Power Attack, Furious Focus, Weapon Focus Glaive, 2 Combat Reflexes 3 Combat Expertise 4 Weapon Specialization

Attack +10 (MW Glaive), Damage 1d10+14
AC 21 (MW Full Plate)

One big advantage that two handed fighters will see is AoO as we can have reach weapons, and our AoO add 1 1/2 str bonus where as dex based will not gain that benefit.

You can't have Combat Expertise with a 10 Int, but that feat isn't really used in your build.

Trade the Str and the Dex, so Str 14 Dex 18, replace CE with EWP(elven curve blade), and your concession of free Finesse/Imp Finesse, and we get:

Attack +10(MW Elven Curve Blade), damage 1d10+12
AC20(MW Breastplate)

So our Dex fighter loses 2 points of damage and 1 of AC, but gains 2 points of touch AC, 2 points of initiative, and a 30' movement rate instead of 20.

Honestly one could also drop Str to 13 and bump Wis to 12 to get +1 on Will saves too.

:-) I forgot there was two handed finessable weapons. I would amend the rule to prevent more then full dex be used, but even without the amendment I think we are balanced.

You have advantages over me and I have advantages over you. I will be less affected by feinting rogues, and have more AoO.

Edit: I reread my post and realized I was of two minds when I wrote it. What I meant to say was to make something that proves these house rules are unbalanced, and/or a bad idea. Even with these rules I expect two handed fighters will have more AC and do more damage.

I think I am going to try #1. I will just say it has to match the theme in some way.

This is a great idea. I hate getting spells I don't want to use or spells that will become obsolete. The slower spell progression makes this much worse as I have one less level to use them.

I'm cool with Imp. Weapon Finesse as long as there is a high-strength feat to grant full movement on heavy armor and the like.

Fighters already get that as a class feature, but that isn't really an issue as str based fighters are already viable. I would even remove that from the class feature as it doesn't make sense. It doesnt matter how strong you are, heavy armor limits your movement. You should be slower.

The problem is dex fighters are not viable. The fact is Dex based fighters, in real life, have several big advantages over strength based builds that is not at all reflected in pathfinder. Dex based fighters are fast and agile. They should be hitting far more often as they don't have cumbersome armor slowing them down or limiting their movements. They are also far more exposed and more likely to get dropped on one good hit.

I am considering homebrewing these rules.

Armor check penalty applies to attack rolls.

New Feat: Armored Fighter: Reduce the armor check penalty to attack rolls by 3, and reduce your armor check penalty to skills by 1

All characters can use Dex instead of Str for finessable weapons. No need for weapon finesse

Characters can use dex for damage with finessable slashing or piercing weapons, but the damage is precision damage and is never more then full dex (ie using two hands does not all dex and a half)

Undead are immune to precision damage

With these rules, Strength based will still be out damaging dex based, and usually have higher ac. I am considering having some other rule that increases the chance of criting a lightly armored opponent.

I am reading Preferred Spell and I like it for Sorcerers, if it weren't for that prereq of Heighten Spell.

Is there any other feats that allow Sorcerers to cast metamagic spells without increasing the casting time?

Actual ideas for changes to the sorcerer:

1. Bloodline spells being sub-descriptor based. Instead of giving the sorcerer a specific list of bloodline spells allow them to pick any spell that matches a specific sub-descriptor of spells one for each spell level. For example the fire elemental bloodline might be allowed to pick any fire type spell where a celestial bloodline could pick any spell with the good type. You can easily throw a 'default to the highest spell level or when your class would normally get that spell if it is on your list' line if you are worried about them getting spells earlier than normal. Also it gives them a bit of something to make them different and stay current when new spells come out in new books.

2. A few choices for each bloodline power. Look some people want claws for their bloodlines and some people want rays. We could make these sorts of powers "generic choices" for the sorcerer and then have other specific choices come out of the bloodlines themselves. Having an 'either/or' would allow for more variety in the bloodlines and allow for some basic default choices that every sorcerer could fall back on.

3. Updated bonus feat list. Part of what makes the wizard always be timely is the fact that he has bonus feat types instead of a single list of bonus feats. You don't have to create a bunch of new stuff specifically for the wizard because the base class gives you the chance to simply pick up new stuff as a normal class feature. If the sorcerer bonus feats for the bloodlines were tied to a theme or general category of feats then when new material comes out you wouldn't have to think about, "wow these dragon type feats should be available to the dragon bloodline sorcerer -- wish they had come out when that bloodline was made." This really applies to the bloodline spells too -- it's beyond ridiculous that dragon bloodline sorcerer doesn't have dragon's breath as a bonus spell known.

4. Increase their skill points -- I don't...

5. Allow them to swap out one of their spells every level. This way they can choose their bloodline a level early, and then swap it for another spell when they get their bloodline.

6. Change the human's favored class option to 1/2 a spell every level. 1 new spell known per level is too much and puts too much pressure on players to pick human.

I guess my confusion stems from the fact that these numbers, despite being run often enough and in an obvious enough place that everybody has them but me, cannot be readily provided. Discourse has a concept known as the burden of proof, which means that it's the responsibility of a party making a claim to support that claim. Where is this support then? Where are the numbers.

Because a great deal of the balance of such a feat would stem not just from which is higher but the margin by which one is higher than the other, which in turn would allow one to decide on whether or not it's fair and reasonable for such to exist.

People aren't providing you with numbers because it is easy to calculate for yourself.

15 point buy is standard right? Here is a bare bones, non-optimized two handed fighter.

I challenge you to build a dex based fighter that has combat advantages over him. I will give you weapon finesse and improved weapon finesse for free, no feat cost, and I will still out damage you. Our AC will also be comparable. The only advantages you will have are in skills, and initiative.

Human Level 4 Fighter

Stats
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8

1 Power Attack, Furious Focus, Weapon Focus Glaive, 2 Combat Reflexes 3 Combat Expertise 4 Weapon Specialization

Attack +10 (MW Glaive), Damage 1d10+14
AC 21 (MW Full Plate)

One big advantage that two handed fighters will see is AoO as we can have reach weapons, and our AoO add 1 1/2 str bonus where as dex based will not gain that benefit.

maximized empowered intensified=60+ (10d6 x .5)= 60+17(average rolls)=77

quickened empowered intensified=35 x 1.5 = about 52

You forgot the bloodline boon it looks like. I should have an extra 10 points of damage before the empowered, making it an extra 15. Maximized removes the roll, so it is 105 points of damage plus the claw. That would be an average of 110.

Not bad if it was sustainable, but 4 times a day does not make you a real melee combatant. It means you have a character that can do burst damage, and what is your AC at level 12?

4 times a day I can do the big double hit, but I can still throw quite a few single hits after that.

Yes.

Wouldn't be much point to Crossblooded if they didn't.

I think those two together make it worth while.... I still feel very feat starved though.

Orc Bloodline arcana gives you
Whenever you cast a spell that deals damage, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled.

and the Draconic Bloodline gives you
Whenever you cast a spell with an energy descriptor that matches your draconic bloodline's energy type, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled.

Do they stack? If I go crossblooded, does that mean I do +2 damage per die rolled?

Dragon Disciple requires 5 ranks in Know Arcane to qualify. Can I take the prestige class at level 5 while taking my 5th rank, or do I need to wait until I am choosing my 6th level class

VegasHoneyBadger wrote:

I don't care about that. I care about flavor for my game. Before this new book came out I had to make a scimitar wielding character if I wanted to make a viable dex based character.

THIS is why there shouldn't be any DEX-to-damage feats (or, I might argue, weapon properties). I mean, no offense meant, but boo-hoo. You already get loads of mileage out of a high DEX build in so many ways, not least of which are DEX-to-AC and DEX-to-attack bonuses and synergistic things like multiple AoOs. And you already have so many ways to increase the damage you put out.

And yet, folks come on the boards wondering why DEX-to-damage isn't a core "thing".

IMVHO there should be perks and penalties for each and every high stat and low stat for most character classes. One of the most significant penalties for low (meaning less-than-fully-optimised through-the-roof high) STR is lesser STR-to-damage.

So I would have to argue that a DEX-based character can very much be "viable" without having to make every sam-hill-jack of them into a whirling dervish clone. "Viable"!!! As if, in order to be "viable" one needed top stand on the very tip-top point of the DPR-Olympics pyramid and then step up a bit.

Sorry. Bit of rant there. Nothing personal meant by it.

But I for one am very glad that DEX-to-damage isn't a routine core "thing". YMMV.

Put your money where your mouth is and stop talking shit. Make a Dex based character and explain the advantages he has over the str based build. You can compare your character to the Str based one I made on this forum.

Sorry but I don't have an armor check penalty of -5, and that means that you would have a 5 attack bonus, and a 11 damage, and my G.M. did not give me all the gold, i gambled and got 9219 gp, and i had 2 mwk daggers, so i enchanted them to be +1 weapons. And we fight in a group of 4, so of course we come across big enchants.

Armor check penalties do not apply to attack or damage rolls.

I wouldn't recommend casting debuff spells

Which debuff spells am I casting? The only spell I can think of is enervation which doesn't have a save

If you're starting at a level where you have your Amulet of Mighty Fists (Agile), it's ALMOST bearable, but by the time you get it you're still WAY behind a melee combatant in terms of accuracy/damage. Most of your damage comes from your spells anyways, and it seems to be where you've focused your feats, so why bother with it?

It seems like you are misunderstanding the build. 1d6+1 damage at level one isn't terrible. It is less damage then the fighters but still dropping people. Obviously I will burn through my spells quick and perhaps just be able to provide flanking. Elemental spell is to make sure no one is immune.

Level 2 I am doing 2d6+2, still pretty good. Again spells aren't lasting too long.

Level 4, Now I can use Empower Spell. 4 times per day I can do 4d6+4d3+6 (I think the math is right on that). That is going to hurt a bit. I also still have the regular 4d6+4 damage, I may of gotten lucky and found my amulet by now as well.

All of those metamagic feats are strictly for Shocking Grasp. I choose them for combat.

Basically, in the early levels your claws don't hit hard enough to matter (via weapon finesse),

I think the problem isn't that I don't hit hard enough, but rather not often enough

and in the later levels there are better ways to function as a primary combatant that you miss out on with a dexterity-focused build. Now, I don't mind Weapon Finesse (it lets you use Dex for Touch Attacks like Shocking Grasp), or the rest of your feats, but if you're gonna pick Caster feats, you need to play your character like a caster, and if you're goal is melee damage, you need to pick feats/abilities that allow you to do that well, and I just don't see it going well with this build.

I don't understand what you mean at later levels. At later levels I will likely have enough spells to last several fights and I will put out more damage then anyone in the game

At level 12 I will be able to two shocking grasps in a round and do an amazing amount of damage. The biggest drawback, I think, to this build is the full round action to apply metamagic drawback. That is really annoying.

Let's see if I casted a maximized empowered intensified shocking grasp, and held the charge. Next round I charge in, attack, and then cast a quickened empowered intensified shocking grasp. Delivering these attacks via my claws mind you. I would do 1d3+1d6+100, twice. I can do that attack 4 times per day.

Do it without the 3.5 material if you want it to be taken seriously here. Otherwise people won't take this though exercise seriously. You should also not multiclass at all. There is a difference between you make ___ do X, and it is intended to do X. If it is intended to do X then it won't need the extra support.

I didn't multiclass

So lets take a look at carrying capacity versus what you need...

10 Str gets you 33 lbs.
Light armors that have high max dex, are about 10 lbs
Depending on what weapons you choose to use a light or 1 handed is about 6 pounds. I think two handers might be 12 or so. So...33 lbs is plenty. Not even a problem. Everything else goes in a bag of holding. No carrying capacity problems unless you just really feel a need to super dump str.

Yeah, when I hear dump stat, I am picturing below 10.

Not everyone dumps strength because at this time strength builds still do more damage. And it needs to stay that way. If dex builds deal damage on par with strength, the strength builds will disappear.

If that were true then we wouldn't have Dex based builds.

Not everyone is playing characters simply because the numbers are better. Most of us are trying to create a character with the flavor they like. I like the idea of a half naked fighter dodging and ducking blows, and as a result I typically play them.

I would like to see them preform much better so the experience is more enjoyable, but no one is going to stop playing str based fighters because the dex guys are now doing the same damage. Few things sucks more fun out of the game then being feat starved, and dex based fighters are typically feat starved.

I agree dex builds should be stronger, but dealing more damage isn't what they should do. They need to reduce the feat chains to make them be more effective.

In what areas should they be stronger? Should they have better defense then two handed fighters? Should they hit more often? What advantages should they have over the two handed fighters? They should be better at them in at least one area.

I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be able to do as much damage as a two handed fighter. They have two weapons which means they are sometimes hitting twice as often.

Against opponents immune to precision damage I agree two handed fighters should preform better, but against squishy humans and elves dex should be just as effective.

BTW, i rolled his scores, if i didn't i wouldnt have a

9 strength (11-2(-2 racial))
22 dexterity (17+5(4 racial, one because of 4th level))
13 con.
8 intelligence (10-2(-2 racial))
13 wisdom,
9 charisma.

My G.M. didnt let me reroll strength. i should have a 10 in that.

I said dex based fighter, not rogue. Rogue are supposed to out damage fighters. You DM is pretty generous. It sounds like he hands out treasure like candy. At level 4 you should 6k worth of items, it sounds like you have double that. Anyway here it goes

Human Fighter

20 Str (17+2racial+1 level)
14 Dex
14 Con
8 Int
8 Wis
11 Chr

Trait: Defender of Society
Feat: Power Attack, Furious Focus, Weapon Focus (Great Sword), Cleave, Weapon Specialization, Skill Focus Intimidate
Gear: +1 Great Axe, +1 MW Fullplate

Attack +10 and 18-28 damage (2d6+16)
AC 24 (10 + 2 Dex + 10 Armor + 1 Dodge + 1 Trait)

I think I am out damaging you, and I also have more AC. I am going to be consistently hitting too.

Edit: Note this is not optimized. I am using a standard race and no archtypes or multiclassing.

one trait is a drawback, it allows you an additional trait. The idea of build would be casting the spell, running in, then running out. Ideally I wouldn't get hit more then once. I guess I should consider the possibility of using all of my spells per day. I would probably pick up
Acid Glove as a cantrip to counter that. It is a zero level touch spell that does 1d6 points of acid damage, this way I can keep swinging even when I run out of shocking grasps.

The AC should be high enough to avoid alot of hits. Low levels would be a bit rough though. At level 4 I am looking at 26 AC, and with vanish I should be able to flee easily.

It must also be pointed out that sorcs can take a feat to memorize spells, which means making magic items isn't all that hard. There's also a ring which allows them to add a Spell known from reading a spellbook or scroll, or even seeing the spell cast, which obviates much of the problem with Spells Known. Indeed, sorcs in PF can now prepare for a battle with a special spell or three just like wizards can!..which is payback for spell specialization.

I have a few problems with that ring as it is incredibly poorly written. Can you teach it a spell from a scroll without expending the scroll? There are many unanswered questions there, but yes there are ways to mitigate the sorcerer's drawbacks.

It should also be noted that the sorc bloodline benefits are extremely good, and generally not equaled by wizard school specializations...especially when dealing with damage spells.

That is debatable. There are some good bloodlines, but alot of them are lack luster and make me wonder whether Paizo realizes Sorcerers are D6 and half BaB. I like several of the Wizard abilities better. Teleportation, foresight, and admixture are easily better then most, if not all bloodlines. I also cannot learn wizard school abilities without becoming a Wizard whereas bloodlines can be learned by anyone.

It should also be noted that Sorcs can get their bloodline spells a level earlier then normal simply by using the feat Extra Spell Known.

You don't need a feat to do that, you can simply choose the spell. The problem is you get bloodline spells on even levels but you can only swap out spells on odd levels. That means if you get your bloodline spell a level early, then you end up knowing it twice next level, on the following level you can swap out your duplicate.

That being said, I don't think it would be hard to convince most DMs to let you swap out on even levels in this scenario.

This thread isn't about optimization. The complaint is having to wait another level to get the cool stuff without any benefit other then flavor.

I understand that, and I am saying that the one level isn't a huge chasm that requires crossing. And you seem to ignore the fact that the sorcerer catches up IN SPADES on the alternating levels, ending up with double to 2/3rds the number of castable spells a day as a wizard. This isn't as big as you make it out to be.

........

Pity the poor wizard on the even levels then? For the wizard will do better on odd levels and the sorcerer will do better on the even ones.

Are you agreeing that Wizards are better on odd levels? If so we can move on to debating whether or not Sorcerers are better on even levels.

.(Sorcerers) ending up with double to 2/3rds the number of castable spells a day as a wizard

Universalist wizards maybe, but specialists are only one spell per level behind. Specialist wizards also have more spells per day then sorcerers on odd levels.

At even levels Sorcerers get a single spell known. That greatly limits the spell selection as you want to choose something you can cast multiple times in combat. That makes spells like Web and Haste seem wasteful. With only one spell known you risk entering situations where the monsters are immune. Wizards do not usually have this problem.

While the Wizard is casting Haste, Stinking Cloud, and a fireball all in one encounter the Sorcerer is stuck with just fireballs or perhaps hold person, hoping the monster isn't immune.

The wizard shows up with two fireballs prepared and uh oh, we are fighting fire elementals. No problem, lets spontaneously convert them to cold balls, while the sorcerer sits back and watches. Good thing the sorcerer has all those extra spell slots.

=Ahm, my dexterity based character has a 22 dext. score, please, and i would have 2 weapon fighting by 3rd level.

Well if he had 22 dex then I guess that invalidates my arguement :-)

Build him. I want to see this OP character. In fact I will give you dex to damage and dex to hit for free. No feat tax. Let's compare AC and damage to the fighter I build. I want all of the stats, feat, armor, and weapon choices. Race too please.

Easily obtaining dex to damage would invalidate strength as an ability score.

Paizo may one day cave to this host of complaints, but I hope they never do. I hate Slashing Grace and Dervish Dance and the Agile enhancement.

Dex builds should be worse at dealing damage.

Now, how much worse is the real question. Dex builds, and TWF builds should not be so far behind strength builds in damage. But if you make dex builds deal as much damage as strength, then you've left strength with nothing to do. Sure, it applies to climb and swim checks. Those are real important.* Oh, and carrying capacity, except bags of holding, ant haul, and a myriad of other things can negate this problem. I do agree dex build should probably get a little more benefit, but I don't think dex to damage is what they need. Combining two weapon fighting feats into one, would be a good start.

So no, I'm sorry. I can't agree with your position because you're too concerned with getting what you want, instead of looking at the whole picture.

*Outside of some specific campaigns these are almost completely unused by level 3. And by taking 10 you can usually get over whatever challenge there is, even if you don't have ranks or a bonus by simply using some equipment.

I didn't know that fighters got Ant Haul as a spell. That would hurt my argument a bit as all of my dex based fighters needed to stay within a light load without losing AC. Bag of holding is nice except I still need to carry a sword, armor, and anything else I might be wearing. Those things tend to weigh me down a bit once I get hit for any strength damage.

What big picture are we talking about? Everyone dumping strength. If you read through this forum you will see plenty of evidence of that never happening. What is it exactly that I want? An OP character? Hardly. I play Dex based characters all the time and usually find myself laughed at regularly, and consistently under preforming. I'll take the less effective character if I like the flavor. If it makes sense thematically for the character to be less effective, then I wouldn't complain, but it doesn't. We have plenty of examples in real life of small guys beating the living crap out of bigger opponents due to skill and speed. That is why martial arts is so f#*!ing cool. I want to be the Bruce Lee, or the Jackie Chan of the campaigns, unfortunately I usually end up playing their retarded cousin due to poorly thought out rules.

Do you not understand that the whole point to strength, other than carrying capacity and swim and climb checks, is to deal damage and to see your attack bonus? I mean with me having a 9 strength, I don't do any damage, but with weapon finesse, I hit all the time, but it would make Dexterity an overpowered score if you had my scores, and strength almost useless? I mean strength is supposed to be your most important score (unless you are a magical character other than the magus) and Dexterity supposed to be its equal? If i had this feat(Improved Weapon Finesse), i would be even deadlier than the 20 strength Barbarian on our team, which is absurd. So, think would it make sense in Pathfinder, not in real life.

Make your OP dex based character and I will make a basic two handed fighter that will be more powerful. 20 point buy.

Are you really blinded to the fact that this feat would be completely OPed? I mean would you be killed by someone using their agility or by someone using their strength? I mean if you were getting stabbed by a scrawny person, wouldn't you take barely any damage, compared too a strong guy, whom would probably kill you with that blow? I mean, isn't that the point of strength? Weapon finesse makes some sense, as you wouldn't need much strength to carry a knife, but it would to carry a 5 foot sword now, wouldn't it?

I would rather get hit by a half orc then Bruce Lee.

There should be no such thing as Dex to damage, not even the limited feats that exist.

Str then becomes a dump stat for, well, any class, if they take the feat, and Dex becomes super-powered: Defense, to hit, and damage

It doesn't though. In order to get your full dex bonus to AC you need to be a light load, dumping str makes that hard and also makes you vulnerable to any spells or abilities that impact strength.

Dex based fighters have plenty of drawbacks and will never outshine two handed fighters.

Str based fighters
typically have more ac
hit harder
keep most of their ac during ambushes
keep most of their ac when opponent feints
do not collapse after getting str damage
spend less money on weapons

Dex based have a few benefits I admit: touch ac, reflex saves, and skills; I would say mobility but pathfinder killed that with armor training.

Weapon Finesse is fine. Dex to hit actually makes sense; but to do major damage should require Strength. Dumping Strength should be impossible without creating a character who's worthless in melee.

I find your lack of wisdom disturbing. I don't need to cut deep to kill you, dex represents speed and agility. With that I could make 8 cuts in the amount of time it takes you to make one swing with your great axe. Really feats that add dex to damage, thematically, represent more wounds rather then deeper wounds. We call it one attack, but really it is several.

Does it matter that wizards are the better spellcaster in the long run? This thread smacks of butthurt sorcerer.

I'd rather listen to the boohoos about fighters and rogues.

It is the short run that they are better. It is the odd levels before 17.

Calling people names instead of debating the point is kinda childish don't you think?

Not = to a wizard does not mean "is underpowered" IMHO.

I never disputed this. I am simply trying to balance the two classes.

Frankly, for most GMs' games, you don't need to go hog wild with optimization.

This thread isn't about optimization. The complaint is having to wait another level to get the cool stuff without any benefit other then flavor.

A modest amount of optimization is fine, and in that case, wizards and sorcerers are still pretty even

That is bull. Show me sorcerer and a wizard at level 3 that are even, or one at level 5. Wizard will significantly outshine the Sorcerer. Even at even numbers where the Sorcerer has only one high level spell, the wizard will likely do better.

As for the second bit, Cross blooded sorcerer archetype does just this. You get two arcana powers, and access to two choices of bloodlines at each level. In terms of drawbacks, this archetype has very few, especially if wild-blooded alternate bloodlines are added to the choices.

You just lost all credibility. Crossblooded has the worst drawback of any archtype for any class. One less spell per level puts the Sorcerer another level behind the wizard. That hurts incredibly. It is possible to make crossblooded work, but suggesing there are few drawbacks is disingenuous.

For example, sorcerer could take arcane and sylvan (wildblooded) bloodlines. At level 1, this would give you a Animal Companion and a Familiar. You would need to sacrifice the 1st level ability, but you can do that. For pets, you could take a ram and goat and have two melee strikers to protect your sorcerer.

Crossblooded doesn't give you both 1st level abilities, you have to choose. So you can choose the familiar or the Companion. At level 3 you would be able to pick up the first level power of the other one, but I suspect there is a rule preventing having both an animal companion and a familiar.

There are lots of other combinations. A good one is to go with a charm specialist and take the undead, Groveborn (wildblooded), Impossible, or another that allows alternate targets for mind-affecting abilities (I think there's one for monstrous humanoids and animals). Some fun options there.

You are aware that by RAW you cannot combine the two right? However, I admit you are hitting one of the few justifications for choosing crossblooded.

EDIT: The one archetype I keep waiting for is a sorcerer archetype where he only has a single spell known, but it's a spell mastery class that allows additional bonuses and potential for that one spell. Sort of like that single weapon master fighter archetype.

Keep waiting, I don't expect to see that one anytime soon, but an interesting idea. I just recently homebrewed a specialist Sorcerer. Basically he gets to choose a wizard specialty class and several opposition schools. The big benefit is in his specialty school he gets spells from all class lists.

Melkiador wrote:

If dexterity can steal strength's things should the opposite be true? A feat to apply strength to AC? Strength to reflex save?

I think this person hit it on the head why they havent and may not create that. Agility already has alot of purposes and this would put the nail on using strength for many builds.

This is a fantasy game and most people want to role play out character ideas. A dex based fighter is a pretty common idea. When we start building these characters and find ourselves feat starved and ineffective it spoils the experience. I understand that there are many uses for dex and not many for strength, but that doesn't change the fact that dex based fighters are not effective. Even with this feat TWF dex fighters will find themselves outshined by the strength based two handed fighters. That is fact, and that should be remedied.

Some of you have read my other thread 'Problems with Sorcerers' and since then I decided to make a melee based Sorcerer to test out the theory that Paizo intended them to be support fighters. This is the theory one of my gaming friends put out and there seems to be alot of evidence to support his theory. I used a little 3.5 material. Here it is, please critique.

Halfling Sorcerer [Blue Draconic Bloodline]

Str 5
Dex 19
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 14

Traits: Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp), Vagabond Child (Escape Artist), Rice Runner (Acrobatics), Umbral Unmasking
Skills: Max points in Perception, Escape Artist, and Acrobatics. The extra point will be picking up class skills.

Feats: (1) Weapon Finesse, (3) Elemental Spell, (5) Empower Spell, (7) Quicken Spell, Intensify Spell, (9) Arcane Thesis (Shocking Grasp), (10) Improved Initiative, (11) Maximize Spell, (13) Arcane Strike, Toughness (15) Spell Perfection (Shocking Grasp)

Cantrips: (1) Detect Magic, Caltrops, Prestidigitation, Light (2) Message (4) Ghost Sound, (6) Drench
Spells: (1) Shocking Grasp, Reduce Person (3) Mage Armor, Vanish, (4) False Life, (5) Expeditious Retreat, Resist Energy, Cats Grace, (6) Vampiric Touch (7) Protection from Evil, Glitter Dust, Fly, Heroism (8) Enervation (9) Web, Lightning Bolt, Fear, Greater Invisibility, (10) Undead Anatomy II, (11) Monstrous Physique II [Derro Fetal Savant], Spell Resistance, Teleport, (12) Undead Antatomy III, (13) Form of the Dragon, Cloak of Dreams, (14)

Items: Wand of Shield, Grease, [4k] Amulet of Mighty Fists (Agile), Anklet of Translocation, [1k] Page of Spell Knowledge

Thoughts? Basically this will guy will be a knock out artist. He will constantly be using reduce person, shield and expeditious retreat. The shield wand will be his first purchase. The really nice thing is he doesn't need any equipment.

He will cast Shocking Grasp (modified with one or more metamagic feats) and blast the dude. Elemental Spell will allow him to hit creatures vulnerable elements or get by electricity resistance. He isn't too concerned about casting defensively because he is pretty hard to hit. Once he gets that amulet of Mighty Fists he will start to really be putting down the hurt. At level 7 (with the amulet) he should be doing 23-61 with a first level spell slot, or 33-85 with a third level slot. By level 11 I will just be doing two claw attacks both charged with shocking grasp on a charge.

I think dragon disciple would make him better, but not sure if that is needed.

First off, let's make something very clear.

I am not saying the Sorcerer is underpowered. It is a very powerful class and I do not deny that. I am saying that the closest class to a Sorcerer is the Wizard, and either the Wizard should be made weaker, or the Sorcerer should be made more powerful for balance reasons.

Yes the Wizard is the most powerful class and there are plenty of other classes, like the monk, that need a boost more then the sorcerer.

Lots of people in this thread are bringing up the Oracle. The Oracle is supposed to be more powerful, all the base classes are. This is how Paizo makes money at the expense of the game, by putting out new material that makes the old material inferior.

Sleep has a maximum HD of 4, and Deep Slumber has a max of 10. Obviously this is because putting enemies to sleep is incredibly potent, yet the Witch can do this all day to any HD at level 2. That means your level 20 Barbarian boss can be taking out by a level 2 witch in one hit if he fails his will save.

The Magus can deliver Shocking grasp through a scimitar, using the scimitars crit modifier, while in heavy armor.

I digress. The purpose of this thread was to call Paizo out on the nonsense behind the argument that spontaneous casting is worth a level adjustment.

Think about the benefits of the Wizard.

They are great crafters. Sorcerers can craft too, but only from their list of spells known and they do not get feats every 5 levels that can be used for crafting.

Wizards are incredibly versatile. Evokers can completly change the element of their offensive spells on the fly as a free action. I am betting he is vunerable to cold, lets make that fireball I prepared a snow ball. If a sorcerer wants to do that he must take a feat, increase the spell level by one, and cast it as a full round action.

There are a few things that should be done to improve Sorcerers.

First off there needs to be a bit more of a choice between the bloodline powers. Give two or three choices of first level powers for each of the bloodlines. This way we are not stuck with a first level ability that we never plan on using.

It seems like they should have 4 skill points.

Either they need to get their bloodline spells one level earlier, or they need a free swap if they decide to choose their bloodline spells early.

With all of the melee focused bloodlines I am wondering if they should be made 3/4 BaB and D8, albiet with something else taken away. Look at their new archtype for example.

We need to get rid of this bloodline feat nonesense and give them feats earlier with a better selection. Obviously they are metamagic users and they should be allowed to choose any metamagic feat rather then a mixed bag from the poor kids birthday party.

Why did they lose the familiar? Give it back please

I don't think you understood a thing I said.

Dervish Dance is done with a scimitar because it's an extremely specific setting feat for a specific god and fighting style released in a softcover (where they take more liberties with the design process).

I don't care about that. I care about flavor for my game. Before this new book came out I had to make a scimitar wielding character if I wanted to make a viable dex based character. That removes alot of flavor without any rhyme or reason. A rapier is an almost identical weapon, allowing the feat to work with rapiers wouldn't make the feat any more powerful (assuming the character had to choose one). In fact there isn't a martial light weapon out there that is better then the scimitar, they are all about the same. My problem is the flavor removed from the game.

Slashing Grace doesn't actually let you use Dex to attack (just damage) unless you have some other feature that gives it to you.

Think before posting please. Both feats require weapon finesse and as a result Dervish Dance doesn't really allow you to add dex to attack either (unless you are getting it without the preqs due to a class bonus).

Fencing Grace only works with the rapier.

So between all of those your only choices that work with weapon finesse natively are scimitar, whip, and rapier.

Agile is also from a softcover but does exactly what you seem to want (dex to damage with finessable weapons). Is there something wrong with it?

Why are you telling me what I already know?

Your proposed Improved Weapon Finesse is certainly more powerful than the currently available options. Whether it's "overpowered" depends on the group and GM.

Not my feat. This has been a known homebrewed feat for quite some time now.

The purpose of this thread was to discuss whether or not this feat should be core, and why someone would think this shouldn't be included.

Also, maximizing damage with daggers/kukris is... 4? 3 if you're small. I mean, is the extra 1.5/1 damage (on average) really worth it? Weapon Specialization is +2 and stacks with rolling well.

Why? To bring the game further into reality. Rogues can sneak attack with great axes just as easily as a dagger. There is something wrong with that. There should be something that makes daggers significantly better for rogues without requiring a archtype.

edit: I am thinking making sneak attack use D2s for heavy weapons and d8s for daggers. D6 or D4s for everything in between.

I am trying to understand why we have feats like Dervish Dance, Slashing Grace, or Fencing Grace. What is wrong with extending these to all finesable weapons? Why can't we just allow one feat to allow dex to damage for all light weapons?

My first problem is why Scimitar? Why not rapier, knife, or any of the other finessable weapons? Dervish Dance makes 1000x more sense for a dagger then it does for a scimitar. I understand the desire for the limitation of one weapon, but let us choose.

Improved Weapon Finesse: Preq Weapon Finesse. Add dex instead of strength to damage for finessable weapons.

Second, would allowing the homebrew Improved Weapon Finesse be overpowered? No, not at all. If you were to allow fighters to add dex to damage at the cost of two feats, then two handed fighters would still be the biggest damage dealers (without sneak attack).

Two weapon fighting rogues with this feat will definitely hurt some people, but that is what they are designed to do. AND since you have the agile weapon enhancement, this is something they are going to do anyway.

Finally Paizo really needs to make a feat for daggers and kukris that really maximizes damage. Rogues should be using kukris not scimitars, make a feat that really gives them a reason to use them.

That is what I think at least.

Sorcerers do have to be more gimmicky to do well. They have "builds" so different spell interpretations can ruin a sorcerer, so you need to talk to your GM ahead of time.

That being said this 26 point buy sorceress out performs mythic rogues and fully geared magi made under the same rules. Not only that, but this sorcerer would work well with the wizard in the party.

IMO: Wilders and Psions ftw!

I am interested to hear what a typically battle with this guy looks like.

Obviously you don't want to overdo it, but it can be a valid tactical option depending on your goals. Heck, I've stolen spellbooks (of bad guys) as a PC. I wanted the spells in the book and didn't have any real reason to kill the wizard.

If you steal my spell book, you better kill me. If you don't I will find you and I will hurt you real bad. I think almost every other wizard is with me on this. I think just telling other wizards what some punk rogue did to him would be enough to get them to help you.

It was a Summoner, so D8 and he was behind a wall of baddies. He felt he was not in any danger, because it really looked like he was safe. The rogue snuck up a tree and climbed behind the lines to make the attack.

People on this thread seem to be missing something. The guy makes an attack as he falls. So falling damage plus weapon damage plus sneak attack

The tower was being repaired and was already damaged