Never understood this argument. In my opinion the Sorcerer is vastly superior to a Wizard. Spontaneous casting coupled with more spells per day is way too good to pass up for a broader spell selection. Most sorcerers, especially humans, can cover all the spells worth casting anyways. Plus who wants the stress of wondering if you prepared the "right" spells...
Spells per day is about even, as long as you pick a variety of spells you don't need the "perfect" spell. You only need one that is suitable. Many times the party can handle situations anyway. Your spellcasting just makes things easier, so you still have room for error.
A lot of this also depends on playstyle. If you are the type to gather information then it makes having a useful spell a lot easier, but even if you don't you can pick safe spells instead of specific ones.
You can also make your own scrolls so for spells that you don't want to keep prepped. See invis which does not have to worry about overcoming SR or forcing saves is the type of spell to keep on a scroll.
PS: I prefer sorcerers, but wizards are better.
Only if you take a spell from that school.
Oh, the sorcerer has the "whole wizard list?" Really? So your sorcerer will have a different spell for his top level slot on the even levels every day? Really?
Also if you can say having only 1~2 spells you can actually of your highest level is not logically equivalent to having all the spells on your list except a certain school, and even then being able to use them in a pinch play.
Yes, the sorcerer has access to the whole wizard list.
Unlike the wizard, he can expand his Spells Known with Pages of Spell knowledge. The only limit to his spells known is his cash.
He can take the feat Spell Preparation and prepare different and extra spells every single day.
He can SEE the wizard use a spell, glance at a scroll, or thumb through a spellbook and pick up a spell on the sly. As a matter of fact, it doesn't even have to be on the sorcerer spell list...it can be a bard spell. Healing magic! Not only that, he can keep changing one of his Spells KNown using that ring repeatedly, on the spur of the moment.
So, the sorc has access to the whole spell list of the wizard on demand, can elect to permanently learn spells above and beyond his spells per level on a continuous basis with some investment, and gets more spells known overall then the wizard...considerably more if human and using the human favored class bonus.
Insisting Sorcs don't have access to spells and can't change their spells up is just not true anymore. In fact, the sorc should have and maintain a spellbook of any number of spells, including non-wizard spells, to draw on as the situation permits!
ANd insisting that sorcs are penalized because they can't specialize like a wizard can is back hand saying that having access to all spells of all schools is a bad thing. I know that wizardry discriminates against universal wizards, but sheesh!
And yes, while anyone can grab the sorc bloodline powers with a feat, there's also that charisma requirement which is basically a built in restriction of its own. It takes a lot of investment to get that last uber power.
==Aelryinth
1. If we are including what can be done with wealth then the conversation is a bust. The wizard has plenty of really great options for expanding his daily versatility. Yes, a sorcerer that can spend money can in fact increase his effectiveness. This is true of the wizard with feats and items as well. This is also a really dumb argument to have due to that. Instead lets focus on the classes. I think we can all agree that a class shouldn't have to rely on items to do its thing right? The class is supposed to be good the items are supposed to be extra.
2. You are honestly saying the sorcerer's spells known isn't a problem? So why did they change how it works for the oracle? Why give the oracle it's bonus spell a level early? Because having only one spell of the spell level to cast sucks. Yes you could metamagic lower level spells. That doesn't change the fact that on the even levels the sorcerer does not by himself have the vaulted spontaneousness he is supposed to have.
2. I never said the sorcerer was penalized because he couldn't specialize. I said the sorcerer doesn't have a huge number of effective spells per day over the wizard, and the wizard doesn't really 'suffer' for taking this option. Which is a true statement. Being limited from 1~2 schools of magic is not the same as only getting 1 spell known of a given level. Especially if the supposed fix is to allow the sorcerer a lot of wealth to go buy up a bunch of items from a later project.
The problem isn't that the sorcerer doesn't have money options. The problem is that the baseline sorcerer abilities generally stink and lack flavor and awareness of what is generally given to other classes, and that the spells known mechanic needs tweaking if they are supposed to be spontaneous casters instead of focused masters.
He can take the feat Spell Preparation and prepare different and extra spells every single day.
Imma need a source on that for research purposes.
unfortunately, Abraham, when you are talking spells known, you are instantly talking money.
Because it takes money for the wizard to build up his spell book. did you forget he only gets 2 or 3 free spells per level?
Pages of Spell Knowledge cost the same as Pearls of Power. I'm sure everyone will agree that we are happy to let Wizards have pearls and more spells and sorcs will agree to have more spells known.
Likewise, Spell Specialization is counterbalanced by spell preparation...except the latter is arguably more useful.
The sorc will agree to the wizard buying up spells for his spellbook. he'll start one up, too, to use with this cool ring of his,and new feat, and the Wizard can get a Ring of wizardry I for more spells of his own to counterbalance it.
So, yeah, it IS about the items. For the wizard, spells are items, things he purchases, and that massive spellbook isn't free. The spells may individually be cheap, but they aren't FREE, other then a limited handful.
And no, I'm not at all opposed to seeing Sorcs get their spell levels a level earlier. esp the bloodline spells. However, that doesn't make them weak, nor less versatile if they bother to expand their options.
As for flavor...sorcs ooze more flavor then any wizard archetype, especially the non-optimal bloodlines.
I'd also like to point out, I believe that one the Sorc can prepare spells, he can retrieve spells from his spellbook exactly like a wizard with his arcane bond, too!
The fact is, with one spell and one Ring and several wondrous items, the sorcs options magnify considerably, and more to the point, these things are not dependent on class abilities (I.e. you don't need to be a specific bloodline or race to make use of them.). All it costs is a little gold.
Since a little gold is the entire argument behind why wizards are cool, in the end it does indeed come down to money.
===Aelryinth
Spells per day is about even, as long as you pick a variety of spells you don't need the "perfect" spell. You only need one that is suitable.Except that is also very much true for the sorcerer. It is very easy to have a generically useful spell list which can cover you for pretty much any situation and ensure you have something useful whatever you face. This gets even easier when you add in things like the Human FCB, Paragon Surge, Mnemonic Vestments and Razmirian Priest.
Mid and high level sorcerers easily compete with Wizards and Clerics for versatility if played well. Access to the entire spell list is vastly overrated by many people. Just look through the full list at each level and think how many of them you would ever actually be likely to prepare on any given day.
Part of my point was the wizards get scribe scroll for free. That is just one more thing a sorcerer does not have and since wizards get spells earlier he also has access to more spells that can be scrolled.
You also can't just assume one build. Not every sorcerer will be a human with X, Y, and Z. Every wizard barring an archetype can do what I just mentioned however.
You don't need access to the full list as a wizard. The point is that by having access to a lot of those spells, due you having no limit, you can be ready for most things. If you play things smart you can leave a few slots open. Personally I like the ability that lets you prep an open slot in one minute instead of 15, but even 15 minutes can work barring a very bad scenario. If that happens a sorcerer who does not even know a good spell wont have time to go back to town and buy a scroll so both classes would be out of luck in that case.
Spells per day is about even, as long as you pick a variety of spells you don't need the "perfect" spell. You only need one that is suitable.Except that is also very much true for the sorcerer. It is very easy to have a generically useful spell list which can cover you for pretty much any situation and ensure you have something useful whatever you face. This gets even easier when you add in things like the Human FCB, Paragon Surge, Mnemonic Vestments and Razmirian Priest.
Mid and high level sorcerers easily compete with Wizards and Clerics for versatility if played well. Access to the entire spell list is vastly overrated by many people. Just look through the full list at each level and think how many of them you would ever actually be likely to prepare on any given day.
Mid to high level the sorcerer does better than normal true. However with quick study I don't need to prepare any given spell, I just need 1 minute (10 rounds so granted not something you want to do in combat) and my book and I can have the perfect spell for the job.
All in all I've tried to limit myself from talking about items because once you throw money into the pot it really becomes anyone's game... I fully agree.
However the sorcerer class itself is lackluster. Notice how people aren't pointing out the great 3rd level bloodline options, or the really overpowered ninth level blasts, or the incredibly timely 15th level fly speeds, or how sorcerers have soo many options in what to as class options.
You have exactly one class choice (as opposed to spell choices) as a sorcerer -- what bloodline are you. Unlike the oracle where you can have different flame mystery oracle builds, or the shaman with different spirits and different hexes. Or wizards with different specializations and different subschools.
The closest we got to this with the sorcerer was the wildblooded bloodlines, and then those got changed into archetypes instead of supchoices of a normal option like say, subdomains or subschools.
Again my argument isn't that sorcerers suck. I have never said that.
I have said:
1. They lack options for class features.
2. Their class features are lackluster.
3. They don't have a huge number of extra effective spells per day over the other casters. Also true.
4. That they supposed spontaneous casting in and of itself is also lackluster due to having no actual choices of spells to cast for their highest spell level other than lower level spells going into that slot. The fact Paizo changed how this works for every other class with spontaneous casting proves this. The sorcerer is literally the only class with only 1 spell known of his highest spell level.
He can take the feat Spell Preparation and prepare different and extra spells every single day.Imma need a source on that for research purposes.
Yeah, I can't even find this feat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
He can take the feat Spell Preparation and prepare different and extra spells every single day.Imma need a source on that for research purposes.
My apologies, I misnamed the Feat. here it is...it's actually from PFS.
The following is a list of sorc stuff every sorc should be looking at.==================================================================
Couple points for sorcs: First, this feat.
Versatile Spontaneity
You made a good name for yourself in the Pathfinder Society in part because you knew how to prepare for the challenges before you, even if your natural magical abilities lend themselves less to preparation and more to spontaneity.
Prerequisites: Int 13 or Wis 13 (see Special), ability to spontaneously cast 2nd-level spells.
Benefit: When you regain spell slots at the start of the day, you may opt to prepare one spell you don’t know in place of a daily spell slot 1 level higher than the prepared spell’s level. To do so, you must have access to the selected spell on a scroll or in a spellbook, and the spell must be on your spell list (even if it is not one of your spells known). This process takes 10 minutes per spell level of the selected spell. You can cast the selected spell a single time, expending the spell slot as though it were a known spell being cast by you. Preparing a spell in this manner expends a scroll but not a spellbook. A spell prepared in this way is considered its actual level rather than the level of the spell slot expended. You can apply metamagic feats to the spell as normal, as long as the spell’s actual level plus the increases from metamagic feats is 1 level lower than the highest-level spell you can cast. For example, a 12th-level sorcerer with this feat, a scroll of fireball, and the Empower Spell metamagic feat could prepare an empowered fireball spell in her 6th-level spell slot.
Special: If you spontaneously cast arcane spells, you must have an Intelligence score of at least 13 to take this feat. If you spontaneously cast divine spells, you must have a Wisdom score of at least 13 to take this feat. If you have both arcane and divine spellcasting classes, you can use this feat to prepare a spell using a given class’s spell slot as long as you meet the associated ability score prerequisite.
Pathfinder Player Companion: Pathfinder Society Primer is set for a July release, so preorder your copy today to ensure that you can start using the great character options within at the start of Pathfinder Society Organized Play’s Year of the Demon, which launches at Gen Con Indy on August 15.
==Aelryinth
(Summary: Sorcs can get spellbooks and prep spells for all that wizardly downtime flexibility).
+ Mnemonic Vestment
Vestment, Mnemonic
Aura strong transmutation; CL 17thSlot body; Price 5,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.DESCRIPTIONThe surface of this delicate-looking blue silk robe is adorned with tiny embossed runes across its entire surface.
If the wearer is a spontaneous caster, once per day she may use a spell slot to cast a spell from a written source (such as a scroll or spellbook) as if she knew that spell. The spell must be on her spell list, the same spell level or lower than the expended spell slot, and the same type of spell (arcane or divine) as the spell slot expended. The caster must also understand the written source (such as using Decipher Script (Editor’s Note: This should probably be Spellcraft.) or read magic) and be carrying it. Activating the robe is not an action, but casting the spell otherwise works as normal, including casting time, providing components or foci, and so on. Using a mnemonic vestment’s properties does not consume the written source.
Robe of Arcane Heritage
Robe of Arcane Heritage
Aura moderate necromancy; CL 9thSlot body; Price 16,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.DescriptionThese elegant, dark purple robes are usually decorated with gold stitching suggesting a particular sorcerer bloodline, though some might indicate a family tree.
When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline. The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects.Construction RequirementsCraft Wondrous Item, speak with dead, creator must be a sorcerer; Cost 8,000 gp
Ring of Spell Knowledge
Ring of Spell Knowledge
Aura moderate or strong (no school); CL 7thSlot ring; Price 1,500 gp (Type I), 6,000 gp (Type II), 13,500 gp (Type III), 24,000 gp (Type IV); Weight —Description: This ring comes in four types: ring of spell knowledge I, ring of spell knowledge II, ring of spell knowledge III, and ring of spell knowledge IV.
All of them are useful only to spontaneous arcane spellcasters.Through study, the wearer can gain the knowledge of a single spell in addition to those allotted by her class and level. A ring of spell knowledge I can hold 1st-level spells only, a ring of spell knowledge II 1st- or 2nd-level spells, a ring of spell knowledge III spells of 3rd level or lower, and a ring of spell knowledge IV up to 4th-level spells. A ring of spell knowledge is only a storage space; the wearer must still encounter a written, active, or cast version of the spell and succeed at a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring. Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class’ spell list.Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer’s class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).Construction Requirements: Forge Ring, creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be granted; Cost 750 gp (Type I), 3,000 gp (Type II), 6,750 (Type III), 12,000 gp (Type IV).
Pages of Spell Knowledge
Page of Spell Knowledge
Aura strong transmutation; CL 17th; Weight —Slot none; Price 1,000 gp (1st), 4,000 gp (2nd), 9,000 gp (3rd), 16,000 gp (4th), 25,000 gp (5th), 36,000 gp (6th), 49,000 gp (7th), 64,000 gp (8th), 81,000 gp (9th) DESCRIPTION: This page is covered in densely-worded arcane or divine magical runes.
It contains the knowledge of a single arcane or divine spell (chosen by the creator when the item is crafted). If the bearer is a spontaneous spellcaster and has that spell on her class spell list, she may use her spell slots to cast that spell as if it were one of her spells known. A page of spell knowledge is priced based on the spell's cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell level, unless the spell doesn't appear on either of those spell lists, in which case it is based on the highest spell level as it appears on any other spell list. For example, a spell that is on the 4th-level inquisitor list and the 2nd-level paladin list is priced as a 4th-level spell.CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be able to cast the spell contained in the page ; Cost 500 gp (1st), 2,000 gp (2nd), 4,500 gp (3rd), 8,000 gp (4th), 12,500 gp (5th), 18,000 gp (6th), 24,000 gp (7th), 32,000 gp (8th), 40,500 gp (9th)
================
====Aelryinth
I'd also like to point out, I believe that one the Sorc can prepare spells, he can retrieve spells from his spellbook exactly like a wizard with his arcane bond, too!
===Aelryinth
No. Sorcs can no prepare spells because they are not prepared casters. They don't have any prepared slot to put those spells in. They also don't get any more use of the spellbook anymore than a witch or bard does.
points...
===Aelryinth
Hey I'm not upset that the pages of spell knowledge exist -- I actually love them (heck the Razmirian priest is probably one of my favorite archetypes), and I agree that the wizard on the surface has less spells known with a better easier option for having more through the spending of gold.
Again my argument is thus:
Once gold (actually magical items) enter into the picture it's a different situation that favors no one. As such if we are to discuss the differences then we need to discus the parts that aren't going to render everything moot.
The Versatile Spontaneity (which is also only one spell once a day) is easily matched by many of the wizard options for spontaneous casting.
Mid and high level sorcerers easily compete with Wizards and Clerics for versatility if played well.
I agree with this part. They can compete, which is why I said sorcerers don't need a boost. The skill of the player matters more than the class in this case with regard to sorc vs wizard, but I still think the wizard is better.
Being able to swap out options daily without spending money on magic items is an awesome thing to be able to do. I am sure with enough effort a sorcerer can be built to do something similar, but it still does not do it as well. And a player who knows what he is doing is rarely if ever caught without being able to do anything unless their resources have been drained, and that can happen to either class.
He can take the feat Spell Preparation and prepare different and extra spells every single day.Imma need a source on that for research purposes.My apologies, I misnamed the Feat. here it is...it's actually from PFS.
The following is a list of sorc stuff every sorc should be looking at.
I'm just going to link that for you.
This is a good feat. It allows for a lot of downtime utility. Now such utility is delayed by 3 levels compared to a wizard, but I think that is fair. It also allows you to grab those spells you are really only going to cast once per day without expending a spell known.
I also like how this feat makes a spell book desirable. I always felt it was kind of a shame that sorcerers could care less about magical writing and research.
It's an OK feat although the Int requirement is annoying for any non sage sorcerer. Paragon Surge remains a better option for most sorcerers although it locks you into being a half elf if you are playing in PFS.I'm just going to link that for you.
This is a good feat. It allows for a lot of downtime utility. Now such utility is delayed by 3 levels compared to a wizard, but I think that is fair. It also allows you to grab those spells you are really only going to cast once per day without expending a spell known.
I also like how this feat makes a spell book desirable. I always felt it was kind of a shame that sorcerers could care less about magical writing and research.
Paragon Surge was FAQ'd into only allowing access to one spell per day. There is a work around, but you end up having to build your char around it.
Oddly enough, I would not like this feat for PFS. The benefits of the feat are FAR less in the PFS setting.
It's an OK feat although the Int requirement is annoying for any non sage sorcerer. Paragon Surge remains a better option for most sorcerers although it locks you into being a half elf if you are playing in PFS.I'm just going to link that for you.
This is a good feat. It allows for a lot of downtime utility. Now such utility is delayed by 3 levels compared to a wizard, but I think that is fair. It also allows you to grab those spells you are really only going to cast once per day without expending a spell known.
I also like how this feat makes a spell book desirable. I always felt it was kind of a shame that sorcerers could care less about magical writing and research.
Paragon Surge was FAQ'd into only allowing access to one spell per day. There is a work around, but you end up having to build your char around it.
Oddly enough, I would not like this feat for PFS. The benefits of the feat are FAR less in the PFS setting.
Paragon Surge still allows remarkable downtime advantage at an incredibly low price, which is the real advantage of classes that have more spells known. Not to mention all the other fun things you can do with Paragon Surge...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You have exactly one class choice (as opposed to spell choices) as a sorcerer -- what bloodline are you. Unlike the oracle where you can have different flame mystery oracle builds, or the shaman with different spirits and different hexes. Or wizards with different specializations and different subschools.This is a joke right? Oracles get a choice of mystery and curse and that is about it. Most of the Mysteries are as bad as the Sorcerer bloodlines and as far as revelations go most Mysteries have maybe 3 that are worth anything. Wizard schools are worse, anything that isn't Conjuration, Divination or Void may as well not exist with the possible exception of Admixture for certain blasting builds.
Flame mystery to elemental fire comparison:
Oracle skills:
Sorcerer skill:
Class Skills: An oracle with the flame mystery adds Acrobatics, Climb, Intimidate, and Perform to her list of class skills.
Class Skill: Knowledge (planes)
Point Oracle.
Oracle Spells:
burning hands (2nd), resist energy (4th), fireball (6th), wall of fire (8th), summon monster V (fire elementals only, 10th), fire seeds (12th), fire storm (14th), incendiary cloud (16th), fiery body (18th).
Sorcerer Spells:[qoute]
Bonus Spells: burning hands* (3rd), scorching ray* (5th), protection from energy (7th), elemental body I (9th), elemental body II (11th), elemental body III (13th), elemental body IV (15th), summon monster VIII (elementals only) (17th), elemental swarm (19th).Oracle spells are a level earlier and have a number of spells they normally don't get. Also doesn't consist of elemental body for four out of their nine bonus spells.
Oracle First level ability:
Take your Pick:
1. +10 movement plus two bonus feats later on
2. 15 foot cone of flame 1d4 per level 1 + 1/5lvls times per day
3. 10 foot aura of heat for 1d4 per 2 levels rounds per level per day with blur to boot.
4. Touch of flame (sucks) makes all weapons you use flaming at level 11 (still bad but at least better than...)
Sorcerer
Elemental Ray (Sp): Starting at 1st level, you can unleash an elemental ray as a standard action, targeting any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. This ray deals 1d6 points of damage of your energy type + 1 for every two sorcerer levels you possess. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Oh by the way... all those oracle blasts? Yeah they are Supernaturals.
Level 3:
Sorcerer:
Well at least the oracle starts with less:
Elemental Resistance (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain energy resistance 10 against your energy type. At 9th level, your energy resistance increases to 20.
Molten Skin (Ex): You gain resist fire 5. This resistance increases to 10 at 5th level and 20 at 11th level. At 17th level, you gain immunity to fire.
--- oh wait immunity. The sorcerer won't get that at all.
Level 9:
Sorcerer:
Elemental Blast (Sp): At 9th level, you can unleash a blast of elemental power once per day. This 20-foot-radius burst does 1d6 points of damage of your energy type per sorcerer level. Those caught in the area of your blast receive a Reflex save for half damage. Creatures that fail their saves gain vulnerability to your energy type until the end of your next turn. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your Charisma modifier. At 9th level, you can use this ability once per day. At 17th level, you can use this ability twice per day. At 20th level, you can use this ability three times per day. This power has a range of 60 feet.
Oh good, I can use this blast (read fireball) three times per day at level 20 and twice at level 17!
Oracle:
Firestorm (Su): As a standard action, you can cause fire to erupt around you. You can create one 10-foot cube of fire per oracle level. These cubes can be arranged in any pattern you desire, but each cube must be adjacent to another and one must be adjacent to you. Any creature caught in these flames takes 1d6 points of fire damage per oracle level, with a Reflex save resulting in half damage. This fire lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifier. You can use this ability once per day. You must be at least 11th level to select this revelation.
Alright you got me. Clearly the once per day spell like ability of a20 foot blast at level 9 is much more useful than the rounds of 1d6 per level damage in your level number of cubes that you get to arraign supernatural ability that can only be used once per day period at level 11.
But hey you get 30 foot of movement with the sorcerer at level 15! That is clearly superior to the ability to swift action fly minutes per day at a 60 foot rate per move action, the ability to turn into a fire elemental, or clairvoyance using a torch for rounds per day as a standard action.
Buck up sorcerer -- you finally get immunity to crits and sneak attacks at level 20. You know right at the same time the oracle gets to choose free metamagic on all his flame spells.
Also note that the oracle chooses when and where to get each power. It's not just a "this is your bloodline and that's that" thing.
Oddly enough, I would not like this feat for PFS. The benefits of the feat are FAR less in the PFS setting.Versatile Spontaneity is also only one spell
I'm not reading it like that. I see no limitation, only that you can only prepare one spell per slot.
I'm not reading it like that. I see no limitation, only that you can only prepare one spell per slot.Oddly enough, I would not like this feat for PFS. The benefits of the feat are FAR less in the PFS setting.Versatile Spontaneity is also only one spell
you may opt to prepare one spell you don’t know in place of a daily spell slot 1 level higher than the prepared spell’s level. To do so, you must have access to the selected spell on a scroll or in a spellbook, and the spell must be on your spell list (even if it is not one of your spells known). This process takes 10 minutes per spell level of the selected spell. You can cast the selected spell a single time, expending the spell slot as though it were a known spell being cast by you.
Single by day, also done when you recover your spell slots so it's not a "wait until I need it" ability.
Still nice. I would rate it 4/5 (more accurately 7 of 10).
The one spell can be read both ways, but let's be conservative and say only one per day.
That still means you can put multiple spells in over the course of several days. Or that one spell you wanted for downtime maximizing.
And counter to Wraithstrike, once you have this feat you can prepare spells, which I believe allows you to go Arcane Bond spell-diving.
If you aren't already wearing the Mnemonic Vestment which allows you to do the same thing, anyways.
The Int requirement is minimal. A sorc has few pre-reqs. An 11 Int and a +2 Int boost will do the job.
As for sorc vs oracle...the oracle is a later class, of course they'll put more crunch on it to make people want to try it. If they were designing the sorc from zero now, they'd probably fix things once again.
==Aelryinth
Yeah that's all I'm asking for --
Not saying that the sorcerer is the class most in need (that's the rogue) but it's rough and ugly and doesn't need to be.
Ever since the oracle came out I wish the sorcerer worked like that one were you had a choice of seven out of ten powers and that you could gain all of them with feats. I also wish that sorcerers had 4+int skills points and that there bloodlines granted them multiple class skills like oracle mysteries do.
That still means you can put multiple spells in over the course of several days. Or that one spell you wanted for downtime maximizing.
Considering how you can definitely do that, I think it is reasonable to assume you do multiple spells for multiple slots.
Now the time constraint on doing that is steep.
That still means you can put multiple spells in over the course of several days. Or that one spell you wanted for downtime maximizing.Considering how you can definitely do that, I think it is reasonable to assume you do multiple spells for multiple slots.
Now the time constraint on doing that is steep.
Yeah if the sorcerer wants to slowly prep up a bunch as a GM I don't have a huge problem about that.
Yeah if the sorcerer wants to slowly prep up a bunch as a GM I don't have a huge problem about that.That still means you can put multiple spells in over the course of several days. Or that one spell you wanted for downtime maximizing.Considering how you can definitely do that, I think it is reasonable to assume you do multiple spells for multiple slots.
Now the time constraint on doing that is steep.
So it all comes back to the original post and its question: Are sorcerers really screwed spell-wise compared to wizards, or is the OP up in arms for little to no reason at all?
I am still going with no. Sorcerers aren't wizards and that's just fine.
Yeah if the sorcerer wants to slowly prep up a bunch as a GM I don't have a huge problem about that.That still means you can put multiple spells in over the course of several days. Or that one spell you wanted for downtime maximizing.Considering how you can definitely do that, I think it is reasonable to assume you do multiple spells for multiple slots.
Now the time constraint on doing that is steep.
So it all comes back to the original post and its question: Are sorcerers really screwed spell-wise compared to wizards, or is the OP up in arms for little to no reason at all?
I am still going with no. Sorcerers aren't wizards and that's just fine.
My response would be:
"The base class sorcerer could still use some tweaking and the evidence of every other spontaneous caster starting with two spells known of a new spell level points to the fact that at least that part of their spells known table should be changed. The other (only) and bigger problem is their class features are just really lackluster and subpar and should be looked at if time permits.
With this said the sorcerer has had enough non-class stuff added in to help keep them up to date unlike the rogue. However this is entirely reliant on that non-class after the fact stuff and nothing inherent to the sorcerer class itself."
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Actual ideas for changes to the sorcerer:
1. Bloodline spells being sub-descriptor based. Instead of giving the sorcerer a specific list of bloodline spells allow them to pick any spell that matches a specific sub-descriptor of spells one for each spell level. For example the fire elemental bloodline might be allowed to pick any fire type spell where a celestial bloodline could pick any spell with the good type. You can easily throw a 'default to the highest spell level or when your class would normally get that spell if it is on your list' line if you are worried about them getting spells earlier than normal. Also it gives them a bit of something to make them different and stay current when new spells come out in new books.
2. A few choices for each bloodline power. Look some people want claws for their bloodlines and some people want rays. We could make these sorts of powers "generic choices" for the sorcerer and then have other specific choices come out of the bloodlines themselves. Having an 'either/or' would allow for more variety in the bloodlines and allow for some basic default choices that every sorcerer could fall back on.
3. Updated bonus feat list. Part of what makes the wizard always be timely is the fact that he has bonus feat types instead of a single list of bonus feats. You don't have to create a bunch of new stuff specifically for the wizard because the base class gives you the chance to simply pick up new stuff as a normal class feature. If the sorcerer bonus feats for the bloodlines were tied to a theme or general category of feats then when new material comes out you wouldn't have to think about, "wow these dragon type feats should be available to the dragon bloodline sorcerer -- wish they had come out when that bloodline was made." This really applies to the bloodline spells too -- it's beyond ridiculous that dragon bloodline sorcerer doesn't have dragon's breath as a bonus spell known.
4. Increase their skill points -- I don't mind they only get one bonus class skill, after all they do get the arcana, but there is really no reason they shouldn't have 4 skill points a level.
|
points...
===AelryinthHey I'm not upset that the pages of spell knowledge exist -- I actually love them (heck the Razmirian priest is probably one of my favorite archetypes), and I agree that the wizard on the surface has less spells known with a better easier option for having more through the spending of gold.
Again my argument is thus:
Once gold (actually magical items) enter into the picture it's a different situation that favors no one. As such if we are to discuss the differences then we need to discus the parts that aren't going to render everything moot.The Versatile Spontaneity (which is also only one spell once a day) is easily matched by many of the wizard options for spontaneous casting.
Note that Pages of spell knowledge are wondrous items, so a sorcerer with craft wondrous items (the best crafting feat) can make them without the need to know the spell.
Actually an expert with Master Craftsman and Craft wondrous items can make them with the use of Profession (scribe= without any level in Spellcraft or Knowledge (arcana).It only take a good calligraphy.
- * -
The advantage of the wizard exist only if you have time.
Time to research the enemy and choose the spell to memorize.
Time to add the new spells in your spellbook.
Time to scribe your scrolls.
Without time a wizard with a 20 starting intelligence has 10 first level spells, 4 second, 4 third, 4 fourth, 4 fifth, 4 six, 4 seven, 4 eight and 8 ninth level spells.
A sorcerer has 5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3.
With time and money that change for both classes.
With the Mnemonic Vestment a sorcerer can make better use of a just looted enemy spellbook than a wizard.
The wizard need to copy the spells, the sorcerer with the robe only need to read them to be able to use the vestment.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
6. Change the human's favored class option to 1/2 a spell every level. 1 new spell known per level is too much and puts too much pressure on players to pick human.
Better idea, let all the race specific FCBs become non-race specific for every class.
I am sure with enough effort a sorcerer can be built to do something similar, but it still does not do it as well. And a player who knows what he is doing is rarely if ever caught without being able to do anything unless their resources have been drained, and that can happen to either class.It honestly doesn't take all that much effort. Without spending a penny at level 10 a straight up human sorcerer knows 26 different spells of 1-5, 28 if they are arcane. Combined with a single metamagic feat (dazing or persistent) to keep level 2-3 spells as effective offensive options you can easily have an answer to pretty much any situation you might face. It wont always be the perfect answer but you will have it.
Also as far as being out of resources by the mid levels does that ever happen to anyone? I played my 10th level caster oracle in the season 5 PFS special Legacy of the Stonelords last night an it was pretty much encounter after encounter, about 15 encounters all told. This is a character which has never swung a weapon in his life and doesn't use an animal companion and he ended he session still having about 8 spell slots left including 2-3 5th. After 15 encounters.
I doubt many home games have so many between rests.
I think I am going to try #1. I will just say it has to match the theme in some way.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have a Sorcerer in my game. Two fixes.
*4 skill points
*Bloodline spells granted 2 levels early as a 1/day spell-like ability which becomes an additional spell known when she can normally cast spells of that level.
because it's cool that a sorc's first spell of a given level is her bloodline spell!
Two things.
First, this thread hurt my brain.
Second, I now feel like I am in a tiny minority that enjoys playing Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, and Oracles about the same. With all the power that come from those classes I feel free to focus on roleplaying the character more and worrying about survival/success less.
Second, I now feel like I am in a tiny minority that enjoys playing Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, and Oracles about the same. With all the power that come from those classes I feel free to focus on roleplaying the character more and worrying about survival/success less.
Consider me in (sorta) the same boat. I enjoy clerics and oracles about the same mechanics wise. Clerics might not be able to cast spells on the fly but at the very least they can burn a bad spell in case of emergencies. That said I'd never play a Wizard/Sorcerer. d6 HD, no armor, and 1/2 BAB is a dealbreaker for me because I like my contingency plans too much.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't have any problem with the no armor thing but I do wish that no class had only d6 HD, 1/2 BA, and only 2+int class skills.
The fact that other bloodlines get the claws ability suggests that Paizo was considering the sorcerer to be melee without dragon disciple.
No it doesn't. The game has trap options. This is one of them. Neither the wizard nor a sorcerer is going to have lasting power in melee if they don't multiclass into something else, and at that point whatever they multiclass into is doing the heavy lifting in melee.