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Alright, so what if FtB was exactly the opposite? What if an archetype package was that your FtB started maxed out. When you would accept burn, you instead remove FtB until it is empty. At this point you now continue burning as normal. In that build, you start the day with +x+x, and high hp. Then you wear out your excess of energy and start using your own life force to fuel more powers. It's not ideal, since you'd lose accuracy on your biggest blasts at the end of the day, but in return this archetype package is encouraged to hang on to burn as a desperate measure. There may need to be additional tweaks to maintain balance, but would that feel thematically appropriate to you?
With this idea, Kinetic Form II becomes a wasted ability and boosting your force ward tanks accuracy and damage.
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If you want to raise DPR by 50%, you either raise damage by 50% or raise accuracy by 50%. So if my accuracy is 40%, half that is 20%, a +4. But accuracy gets harder to boost a full 50% when you get to hitting above 50%. Now I need a +5 to be worth it. If I'm at 60% I need a +6. If I'm at 70%, I can raise my accuracy as much as I want and it's not actually worth as much as empower. So at the accuracy level where you can easily make a difference, you have to conside whether you're just fighting something you should be running from to begin with.
As the class is currently designed, raising accuracy only increases damage for non-touch iteratives. Touch attacks and physical blasts only gain a nominal DPR boost from increased accuracy.
Any kineticist that builds for accuracy already has a 95% hit chance on touch attacks and an 85% hit chance with non-touch attacks by mid-level.
In other words, I find the option unnecessary, because it's most often going to be a trap. How common will hit rates of 60% or less really be?
Now remove the feel the burn bonuses and rerun the numbers. if it's fine without feel the burn, then you're saying you don't need it either.
Notice I'm suggesting an option to replace feel the burn not an addition to. Not everyone is super thrilled at the requirement to max out burn when you wake up.
Yeah, uh, without Feel the Burn, you hit like 65%-70% of the time instead of 80%. Unless you're starting with really bad stats, you have unfavorable item availability, or you're always fighting much higher CRs, going down to 60% accuracy (when you could get a +7 to hit, mind you, through this ability) seems so unlikely.
I just ran some numbers. I assumed you would start with 18 Dex. put your first four stat buffs into Dex, buy a progressively better Dex belt every 6 levels (so +4 at 12th, for example), and take Weapon Focus at least by 5th level. This includes absolutely no other buffs--no feel the burn, no inherent bonuses to Dex you would surely have by the end. No special items to increase attack bonuses like Bracers of Falcon's Aim or Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stones. No spells. Nothing. Just BAB, increasing Dex, and Weapon Focus.
I then compared those numbers against average AC against equal CR enemies.
If you're suggesting getting a bonus equal to what you'd get from Feel the Burn, you would receive no benefit from this move action accuracy buff until level 18. The very lowest your accuracy goes is 50% (at 13, 14, 15, 17, and 20), and the only time you could get a bonus above +5 would be at 18th+.
That was my point. If this option is meaningless by the formula then FtB is meaningless too. I haven't seen mlp suggesting we get rid of it but instead says that this would be a trap. Something is off in that logic IMO. If one is subpar, the other would be too.
Edit: I've seen players running without the burn bonuses and it wasn't pretty. A +2-3 would have done MUCH more for them than multiplying missed attack damage.
FtB is not meaningless by any stretch, because it stacks with Empowered. If I had to choose between FtB or Empowered, you're right, FtB would be the wrong choice before 18th level. But I don't. I can get both.
kestral287, Myself I'd rather hit this round for less damage than hit a round or two later for 1.5 times damage. Empower may increase overall damage but it doesn't help me make sure I damage something NOW. Doing the MAX damage isn't the only thing that matters.
Then there are 6 levels that you either don't have empower or it costs you nothing. Add to that nothing would stop you from taking a burn for the empower AND getting the bonus to hit. Suboptimal and trap really don't seem to fit.
As to touch blasts: Not everyone has that option. Focus on earth or eather and you have none. it's like assuming everyone already has Kinetic Form active when not everyone gets that either.
mplindustries: You made a LOT of assumptions like throwing EVERYTHING into dex to make your base hit numbers. As Artanthos assumes, you too assume that the kineticist is a build for accuracy pretty much at the expense of everything else. You just assume everyone is going to buy those items (or be able to find them) and take those bonuses at base.
As far as 'you would receive no benefit from this move action accuracy': That is totally incorrect. it means that I get the bonus without having to take burn. this means i may have a lower average damage but I might have up to 120 more hp. You and the others have been so fixed on maxing damage that you forgot not taking burn is a pretty big advantage not figured into your formula.
So is empower worth up to 120hp?
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I have posted two for kineticist. Others have posted their own optimized builds that are different than what I came up with.Actually, there are quite a number of classes that have more than one "optimized" build.
LOl I'll discount the melee one as it's not really a kineticist build but fighter/kineticist multiclass build. So we're back to the 'one' way to make a single class kineticist.
Rynjin posted how I feel. There should be a multitude of ways to make a competent character of a class. Not what we have here.
Discounting a one-level dip to gain armor proficiencies as invalid would be equivalent to saying blaster wizards do not count because they take a one-level dip into crossblooded sorcerer.
And yet, every optimized blaster does exactly that.
I give more than one way to build a class and everyone who disagree dances around and chants "but that does not count." It counts; you just don't like it.
Your still in 'optimization' mode and I'm in 'valid, usable and playable' mode. I could care less what's in the optimization guides. A class should be able to hold it's own without taking every loophole, multiclass dip and 'best choice' of options.
From my point of view, you've been saying an optimized kinetisist works fine and I'm asking if a normally built one does, so you point me to another optimized build that's not even fully kinetisist. Does the average built work ok? That's a different question from 'can you build an optimized one that works'.
If the kineticist is adjusted to compete with optimized builds without optimizing, what do you think it will be capable of when min/maxed?
You have to take optimization and min/maxing, using every trick in the book, into account to avoid having a broken class when it goes live and the munchkins get hold of it.
If the kineticist is adjusted to compete with optimized builds without optimizing, what do you think it will be capable of when min/maxed?
Your looking at it wrong. The average build should be able to keep it's own with other average builds from other classes. Do you get a sense of normal summoners by making a synthesist with maxed mental stats and dumped physical stats and running damage numbers from that?
I'll agree it's important to see if there are any issues from optimization but I don't think that those build should be looked at as the average or looked at to see how well the class is doing. It has to hold it's own without the "munchkins get hold of it".
mplindustries: You made a LOT of assumptions like throwing EVERYTHING into dex to make your base hit numbers. As Artanthos assumes, you too assume that the kineticist is a build for accuracy pretty much at the expense of everything else. You just assume everyone is going to buy those items (or be able to find them) and take those bonuses at base.
...I don't understand. I assumed NOTHING except a Dex belt, an 18 in Dex to start, and a single feat. What do you want here? If you can't get a single magic item, it would only be fair for the rest of the party to be similarly denied, in which case enemies would have to be weaker, too, right?
As far as 'you would receive no benefit from this move action accuracy': That is totally incorrect. it means that I get the bonus without having to take burn.
But the accuracy bonus is not better than Empower. As I explained, it's mostly worse than Empower. So, you'd be better off using that move action on empower than accuracy.
this means i may have a lower average damage but I might have up to 120 more hp. You and the others have been so fixed on maxing damage that you forgot not taking burn is a pretty big advantage not figured into your formula.
So is empower worth up to 120hp?
First of all, yes, yes it is worth that to me. Second, I was talking about someone WITHOUT Feel the Burn. I was talking about the proposed idea of being able to get the feel the burn bonus by taking a move action. I was showing that even without feel the burn, you are still better off DPRwise using that move for Empower.
Your looking at it wrong. The average build should be able to keep it's own with other average builds from other classes.
This is a legitimate question: What do you think an average build for another class looks like? What do you think an average Kineticist looks like if not Dex focused?
mplindustries:You assumed your high stat is dex AND all your ups go there. And a feat. And a dex belt +4. that's a little more than nothing. The only feat I'd say is manditory is precise shot.
As to the rest, i disagree. I'll happily use my move for the bonus to hit and keep my 120hp. Even if I did agree with you, for 1/3 of the class empower isn't a factor so it can't be a 'trap' for those levels.
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kestral287, Myself I'd rather hit this round for less damage than hit a round or two later for 1.5 times damage. Empower may increase overall damage but it doesn't help me make sure I damage something NOW. Doing the MAX damage isn't the only thing that matters.
Then there are 6 levels that you either don't have empower or it costs you nothing. Add to that nothing would stop you from taking a burn for the empower AND getting the bonus to hit. Suboptimal and trap really don't seem to fit.
As to touch blasts: Not everyone has that option. Focus on earth or eather and you have none. it's like assuming everyone already has Kinetic Form active when not everyone gets that either.
mplindustries: You made a LOT of assumptions like throwing EVERYTHING into dex to make your base hit numbers. As Artanthos assumes, you too assume that the kineticist is a build for accuracy pretty much at the expense of everything else. You just assume everyone is going to buy those items (or be able to find them) and take those bonuses at base.
As far as 'you would receive no benefit from this move action accuracy': That is totally incorrect. it means that I get the bonus without having to take burn. this means i may have a lower average damage but I might have up to 120 more hp. You and the others have been so fixed on maxing damage that you forgot not taking burn is a pretty big advantage not figured into your formula.
So is empower worth up to 120hp?
Optimizing your character enough to hit reliable is the default assumption for every ranged attacker. What would happen if you showed up at the table with a low Dexterity on any range focused class? What would happen if you showed up to the table with a melee class that did not focus on strength?
The exact same thing that happens if you don't focus on accuracy with the kineticist.
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If the kineticist is adjusted to compete with optimized builds without optimizing, what do you think it will be capable of when min/maxed?Your looking at it wrong. The average build should be able to keep it's own with other average builds from other classes. Do you get a sense of normal summoners by making a synthesist with maxed mental stats and dumped physical stats and running damage numbers from that?
I'll agree it's important to see if there are any issues from optimization but I don't think that those build should be looked at as the average or looked at to see how well the class is doing. It has to hold it's own without the "munchkins get hold of it".
Define average?
The average player is going to put at least some effort into making his character effective. That includes obvious choices that enable the character to hit his opponents.
For characters that don't make at least some effort to be effective, reference this thread.
mplindustries:You assumed your high stat is dex AND all your ups go there. And a feat. And a dex belt +4. that's a little more than nothing. The only feat I'd say is manditory is precise shot.
Honestly, do people ever put their stat buffs in a stat other than their highest? I find that to be an oddity.
As to the rest, i disagree. I'll happily use my move for the bonus to hit and keep my 120hp.
Right, but I'm trying to point out that the bonus isn't as good as empower. Keep the 120hp, that's irrelevant. You should still move action to empower far more often than taking the bonus. Yes, you don't have empower for 2 levels after you get your first FtB bonus (which I assume would parallel the acquisition of this theoretical move action accuracy buff), but Empower is not free until 19th, and at that point, I admitted the bonus was finally better than Empower anyway.
I don't think I am being clear. I am not saying you should have no option to play without Burn. I am fully expecting a Sleuth style archetype, for example (i.e. an archetype that completely replaces a class's subsystem with another--probably, in this case, something with Ki instead). No, I am only saying that this specific option (take a move action to get an accuracy bonus equal to Feel the Burn) is worse than taking a move action to get Empower in the exact same situation.
For example by extremely conservative numbers, a level 8 Kineticist would have 22 Dex (18 to start, +2 item, +2 from levels) and Weapon Focus, for a total attack bonus of +13. An average CR 8 enemy has a 21 AC. That means you hit on an 8--that's a 65% hit rate. What do you think a reasonable Con would be at this point? 18 maybe (16 to start and a +2 item? That means a regular hit is 4d6+8 (no Feel the Burn, here), which averages 22.
Plugging numbers into the formula, we get an empowered DPR of 22.5225. If you, instead of Empowering, used a move action to raise your accuracy by, let's say even +5 (which is crazy, by the way, and there's no way that would be allowed), your DPR would only become: 20.79.
kestral287:
2: earth is stuck with ranged only.
3: Con mostly. Plenty of things to spend burn on if it's needed. My main complaint has been the requirement to auto burn for FtB. A boost to Wis or Int couldn't hurt either given the weak save/skill points.
4: Shrug... I disagree.
5: No thanks. I get the feeling we are talking past each other. I've tried to explain some situations wherer it isn't better but it's fallen on deaf ears. Doing some math doesn't affect those.
6: 20th level has 120hp as the cost for FtB. it's also a level that the cost for empower is 0 so using a move action on is is quite fruitless.
As to the rest, you are first making a huge assumtpion. As I've said before, I can live with burn I just want to get the choice when to use it.
On that assumption, replace it with a Aether taken twice. Kinetic form=none and temp hp as your only burn sink. or fire with it's questionable fire damage. Not everyone is part water/earth for defense and not everyone can take a Kinetic Form. Add to that the fact that there are plenty of situations where walking around as an elemental all day isn't the best idea.
Additionally Kinetic Forms don't all add dex. Str and Con are also possible. And I'm unsure if this power is meant to alter your size or just give you the abilities. If it does, growing up to huge can be an issue. If it doesn't, do you still gain the size modifiers to stats?
Overall, your long list of goodies you gain are situational at best. I'd also suggest that you not assumption that toughness and FCB are added. Anyone that wants more than a skill or two will think about adding skill points and a large enough CON removes the need for toughness.
Honestly, do people ever put their stat buffs in a stat other than their highest? I find that to be an oddity.
Changing an odd to an even gives an instant bonus. As to highest, I seen my share of CON highest Kineticist.
On the rest: I understand what you are saying. I just don't agree. i'd rather hit more than eek out a few more DPS. I enjoy hiting more than hiting less and dealing more damage. Nothing make for a more disapointing night than missing at the start of the fight only to score some really big damage when it only has a few points left.
Artanthos: Average? A character made by someone out to have fun or making a character for RP reasons. So they don't grab the uber/best/awesome picks only but pick because it's cool or fits the character. For example, they may not pick the form with the best defense, may have some scores above minimum is stats other then the required ones, may pick a feat for RP and not because it raises their DPS by 1.25%. pretty much one not made by one of those "munchkins " you talked about.
Math: I've pretty much said my peace on the 'math'. I don't agree that something that doesn't grant the max DPS isn't something I'd like/want.
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Wow, this thread turned into two sides of like, 3 people each shouting over one another quickly...
On the topic of maxing Con over Dex: that's like maxing Str over Dex on a Bow attacker... So yeah, it's probably not a good idea unless you're rolling touch blasts.
I played a level 10 Kineticist in an arena today with 2 other characters against some APL+4 enemies. With Weapon Focus and 24 Dex (and 20 Con), I had very little trouble hitting, but did pretty middling damage with each attack (~40 once per turn compared to the Brawler's 4 attacks at 25 each...)
In general it seems like people are frustrated that they can't find ways to build and play the Kineticist they want without being suboptimal, and I totally understand that. I'm hoping Mark can include something that somewhat mitigates the Hp penalty from burn, as that seems to be a major sticking point for these people: they don't want there to really only be one strategy to use burn effectively.
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A starting stat of 18 is a pretty big ask, and not a given for 15 point buy games (which is the base assumption).
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 is the spread I allow my players (equivalent to a 15 point buy).
As a ranged Kineticist my stats will probably be Str: 8, Dex: 15, Con: 14, Int: 13, Wis: 12, Cha: 10 (Choosing Dwarf, Halfling or Half-Human or Human for stat boosts)
So an 18 isn't achievable until level 4. I'm also as likely to grab a built of Endurance as a Dex belt because Burn costs and being unconscious means I contribute 0 DPR.
An 18 at level 1 shouldn't be a default assumption. At best assume a 16 or 17, because when a class feature eats big chunks of your hp you want as many hp as you can muster.
Honestly, do people ever put their stat buffs in a stat other than their highest? I find that to be an oddity.Changing an odd to an even gives an instant bonus. As to highest, I seen my share of CON highest Kineticist.
Legitimate question: do you see lots of Cha primary Bards or Bloodragers? Wis primary Inquisitors or Rangers? Int primary Magi not using prehense hair?
Do you think it is possible that, with more time spent with the class, the community as a whole will recognize that Con is a secondary stat rather than primary, just as the stats I listed above have been understood?
On the rest: I understand what you are saying. I just don't agree. i'd rather hit more than eek out a few more DPS. I enjoy hiting more than hiting less and dealing more damage. Nothing make for a more disapointing night than missing at the start of the fight only to score some really big damage when it only has a few points left.
I can respect that. I felt as though offering the objectively weaker option as something equal would function as a trap to catch people that don't do the math. I had not considered that people would see the map, but prefer the weaker option anyway. If you would be happier with the move action accuracy buff fully knowing it is worse for dpr than empower, then I totally support the existence of such an option.
A starting stat of 18 is a pretty big ask, and not a given for 15 point buy games (which is the base assumption).
Actually, Mark has explained several times in this thread alone that 15 point buy was based on a math mistake and 20 should be the base assumption. 16 + racial seems very doable with 20.
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 is the spread I allow my players (equivalent to a 15 point buy).
And I give my players arrays that are worth upwards of 40 point buy and include zero magic items, but I don't assume classes are balanced around my houserules--on the boards, I assume 20 point buy and normal wbl for these kinds of discussions.
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On Hit Points as a Resource
Hit Points are a randomized asset in Pathfinder. I know that a lot of tables houserule this terrible legacy item, but as written the rules are built on random rolls.
I know in a perfect world we'd end up with say a level 7 character who gets average rolls.
But what if you don't? What if you end up with a string of awful rolls so your hp looks like: 8 + 2 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 16 + 21 (16 CON) + 7(FCB) = 44, this player will almost definitely take Toughness as a Feat Tax for a grand total of 51 hitpoints.
Meanwhile his buddy who rolled average hp has 70 odd hit points.
Their really lucky pal who rolled near maximum on each hit dice has roughly 84 (and neither of them felt taxed into Toughness).
I don't know which playtests are using average hp, which are using rolled, which are using max hit dice, which are using a weird method where if you roll under half you get to reroll twice but must take whatever you rolled.
Alchemists don't roll randomly each level to determine how many bombs they get, Barbarians don't roll randomly to determine their daily rage rounds, and Sorcerers don't roll randomly to determine their spells-per-day.
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Mako Level 7 Human Pyrokineticist.
Another Legend of Korra Build.
What class is our baseline?
For accuracy?
For damage?
For utility?
For defense?
What do we compare this class to, when finding out if something needs to increased, decreased, or otherwise altered?
Answer (all): Commoners.
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Korra 7th level Human Hydrokineticist, for the purpose of playtesting Korra is just going to use waterbending okay?
Ok.
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What class is our baseline?
For accuracy?
For damage?
For utility?
For defense?
What do we compare this class to, when finding out if something needs to increased, decreased, or otherwise altered?
IMO Alchemists are the best baseline, since they're the most similar class.
Accuracy: Alchemist is solid baseline. Dex/Int based class who uses touch attacks primarily. Compare/Contrast Con/Dex based class who uses a mix of touch and regular attacks. Alchemist does not require (or benefit from) a magic weapon with Bombs, so their baseline accuracy will be roughly the same on Touch.
--Diagnosis: Kineticist needs a bit more accuracy to account for non-touch attacks.
Damage: Alchemist is roughly similar at lower levels (same dice, generally same static modifier unless I'm mistaken), but the Alchemist (at higher levels) can throw multiple Bombs a round, while the Kineticist is still stuck with one Blast, of similar damage and to-hit as the single Bomb.
Caveat, the Blast's single damage can be boosted to what I'd estimate to be about half or 3/4 of a Bomb full attack barring TWFing, and with Rapid Shot. At 10th level, all other things being equal, four attacks at -2/-2/-2/-7. Alchemist probably has at least 20 Int by now, for 5d6+5 per hit, an average of 90 damage, in a small AoE. On a similar "nova" attack with an Empowered Maximized Composite Blast the Kinetcist has one attack at +0, with at least 20 Con (though likely against normal AC) for 10d6+23 (Empowered to 15d6+34, then Maximized), for a total of...86 damage. Total of 89 with Feel the Burn (making that attack one single at +3 for 89 vs 4 attacks at -2/-2/-2/-7 for 90), making the DPR I would say roughly similar, even skewed in the Kineticist's favor (assuming the Kineticist is attack Touch AC as well).
Problem, the novas are not equal in cost, costing the Alchemist only 4 of his daily 15 Bombs (which are merely one of his class features), but costing the Kineticist 30 HP (60 to achieve that 89).
--Diagnosis: Kineticist could use a boost to damage OR a reduction in cost of damage boosting powers, or a mix of both.
Out of Combat Utility: Alchemist is a clear winner here. 4+Int skills vs 2+Int before even factoring in his Int focus. Extracts providing varied and modular boosts to various things for both himself and his party. Can craft potions. Kineticist's main out of combat utility is limited to different movement modes (which the Alchemist can also get through extracts), different senses (not all replicable, but partly ditto), and limited elemental manipulation (which is of wildly varying use. Fire Sculptor is markedly less useful than Move Earth, for example).
--Diagnosis: Kineticist needs waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more utility.
In Combat Utility and Defense: The Alchemist can change damage types on the fly with Discoveries, most notably Force Bombs, which drop his damage slightly (1 point per dice on average), but make them essentially non-resistable, and fully affect Incorporeal creatures to boot. In addition the Alchemist has a number of useful extracts such as Resist Energy, Stoneskin, and so on to tailor his capabilities to the fight at hand in many cases. Even better, as a Supernatural ability, his Bombs never have to interact with Spell Resistance, negating two of the Kineticist's main combat drawbacks.
The Kineticist, on the other hand, DOES have some neat tricks if you're willing to shell out the HP for them, but are far less flexible, both in damage dealing and damage/status effect mitigation. Elemental Resistances screw them over mightily, especially if they specialize in a single element (which currently has ZERO advantage, so may as well not even be an option), and their attacks can be negated entirely by Spell Resistance, effectively giving the Kineticist an extra "AC" to overcome every time they attack many late game creatures (who are usually elementally resitant on top of that). They get a few solid tricks in the Defense Wild Talents, but most can be replicated by spells, many of which the Alchemist gets as well (Shield vs Shroud of Water, Stoneskin vs Flesh of Stone, False Life vs Force Ward), leaving the Kineticist's main advantage to be that his buffs are activated all day, and at some specific levels can surpass the similar extracts, for a hefty cost.
--Diagnosis it's not doing as bad in this department, but it's not doing good either. If the Blasts were changed to be Su abilities it would solve a huge problem, and granting more damage type flexibility for each element would as well. That coupled with a higher diversity of options for Defense Wild Talents would leave the Kinetcisit in a god spot here.
Final Verdict: There is not much reason to choose a Kineticist over an Alchemist in its current state. It is less useful outside of combat, and less flexible in it, and likely to knock itself out trying to achieve anywhere near the same damage output of anything but an Alchemist tossing one Bomb a round. The Kinetic Blade/Fist builds probably fare better, but if you were to compare them to a Vivisectionist instead I doubt they'd come out smelling like roses there either.
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As an aside, it would also probably help if Composite Blasts didn't cost any Burn. They're really not powerful enough to require it, and being able to use a Composite Blast every turn after 6th level would help with quite a few issues, both in raw damage and elemental resistances (at least half will probably get through).
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Jinora 7th Level Human Aerokineticist, the last Legend of Korra conversion I'll be doing this weekend.
Enjoy.
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I haven't fully read the last pages of 'heated' discussions, but I'm thinking no one is disagreeing with this class having a dex focus, instead of con. What people are saying is that it SHOULDN'T be.
Also, for someone not familiar with alchemists, Rynjin's comparison was a real eye-opener. An alchemist can outdamage a kineticist without too much problem while combining some of the best buffs available to different kinds of kineticists. 4+ int on an int focused class vs 2+ int on an int dumping class is just the final nail in the coffin.
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I haven't fully read the last pages of 'heated' discussions, but I'm thinking no one is disagreeing with this class having a dex focus, instead of con. What people are saying is that it SHOULDN'T be.
Also, for someone not familiar with alchemists, Rynjin's comparison was a real eye-opener. An alchemist can outdamage a kineticist without too much problem while combining some of the best buffs available to different kinds of kineticists. 4+ int on an int focused class vs 2+ int on an int dumping class is just the final nail in the coffin.
Also an alchmesit is a prepared drinker that only takes 1min to make anew drink. With nothing other than minimum Int this one feature is more verisitle than the entire Kineticist class.
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Artanthos: Average? A character made by someone out to have fun or making a character for RP reasons. So they don't grab the uber/best/awesome picks only but pick because it's cool or fits the character. For example, they may not pick the form with the best defense, may have some scores above minimum is stats other then the required ones, may pick a feat for RP and not because it raises their DPS by 1.25%. pretty much one not made by one of those "munchkins " you talked about.
Math: I've pretty much said my peace on the 'math'. I don't agree that something that doesn't grant the max DPS isn't something I'd like/want.
Not only were the builds I posted not completely min/maxed, I started with a 16 in STR/DEX and spent points on intelligence.
Does that make my builds just average? They are certainly less efficient than the guy who stat dumps and starts with a 20 STR/DEX.
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On Hit Points as a Resource
Hit Points are a randomized asset in Pathfinder. I know that a lot of tables houserule this terrible legacy item, but as written the rules are built on random rolls.
I know in a perfect world we'd end up with say a level 7 character who gets average rolls.
But what if you don't? What if you end up with a string of awful rolls so your hp looks like: 8 + 2 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 16 + 21 (16 CON) + 7(FCB) = 44, this player will almost definitely take Toughness as a Feat Tax for a grand total of 51 hitpoints.
Meanwhile his buddy who rolled average hp has 70 odd hit points.
Their really lucky pal who rolled near maximum on each hit dice has roughly 84 (and neither of them felt taxed into Toughness).
I don't know which playtests are using average hp, which are using rolled, which are using max hit dice, which are using a weird method where if you roll under half you get to reroll twice but must take whatever you rolled.
Alchemists don't roll randomly each level to determine how many bombs they get, Barbarians don't roll randomly to determine their daily rage rounds, and Sorcerers don't roll randomly to determine their spells-per-day.
Apply your question to the barbarian. What is he going to do when he rolls all 1's? Is he going to avoid standing on the front line where he might get hit?
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I haven't fully read the last pages of 'heated' discussions, but I'm thinking no one is disagreeing with this class having a dex focus, instead of con. What people are saying is that it SHOULDN'T be.
Also, for someone not familiar with alchemists, Rynjin's comparison was a real eye-opener. An alchemist can outdamage a kineticist without too much problem while combining some of the best buffs available to different kinds of kineticists. 4+ int on an int focused class vs 2+ int on an int dumping class is just the final nail in the coffin.
Everyone, including Mark, agrees the damage is a little low. The reasoning given for the playtest was; it cause less uproar boosting low DPR than is does to start the class with high DPR and nerf it at launch.
weird question for someone who knows grapples better.
If you foe throw someone who is grappling either the kineticist or an ally,
does that break the grapple... or does that throw both of the ones involved?
If movement forces you out of range of the grapple, the grapple breaks, so, this would break the grapple.
Edit: Good luck beating the Fortitude save of someone built for grappling, though!
Arthanthos, I'm not really sure what your goal is but damage is about the least of my worries here.
Aether could do so much with force. My force Wizard was probably one of my favorite casters, he used Spiked Ball relentlessly. No DR or Resistance applied, touch was usually the attack method, overall he was consistent. While a "Push when you need it" build works great for this class, consistent moderate damage output regardless of the situation is not exactly their specialty. Aether feels like the best choice for that, with Earth the close second. But I do have an alternate idea for it that might feel more balanced.
Overall, I'm somewhat surprised that there isn't more integration with the occult theme for Aether. The class as a whole doesn't feel "occult" all that much. Aether has a huge potential, I feel, to connect with the occult as an Ectokineticist. More so than any of the others, Aetherkinticists derive their powers from the Ethereal plane. It wouldn't take much to draw a hard link there, and it would open up some 'ecto' substance infusions for the Aether manipulator. Add a few things like See Invisibility to match the Sight powers the other guys get, possibly have his "touch" attack be a ball of ectoplasm, dealing bludgeoning touch (yes, this would be a first to my knowledge, but it would bypass the idea of using force that seems to consistently be declined as too unpredictable, and the idea is that the Ectoplasm is a bludgeoning ball of goo that can phase right through armor, hardly outside the realm of believability).
Add in a few illusion or divination tricks, and the Telekineticist isn't so much using his mind to move objects, he's fully harnessing the powers of the spirit world through the Ethereal Plane and moving things with telepathic communion with the dead.
This. So much.