I don't think criticizing others for not loving the class exactly as is helps.
In fact, it's rude, and destroys the point of the playtest.
Stop it.
Constructing a strawman where anyone who disagrees with you on getting rid of burn entirely is someone who loves the class exactly as is and does not want to see any changes isn't very helpful, either...
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Not really a power level thing but an aesthetic thing, does anyone else think that kinetic fist/blade/whip should be baked into the core blast?
Not really a power level thing but an aesthetic thing, does anyone else think that kinetic fist/blade/whip should be baked into the core blast?
I think making it something everyone has rather than an optional thing would make the Kineticist's role as a switch-hitter more apparent. That may or may not be a good thing depending on if you're in the camp who likes the switch-hitter Kineticist or the one that wants this class to function properly as a Warlock replacement and just blast. I'm in the former camp but there's plenty of noise for the latter. I think whichever side doesn't get the core class should be serviced with an archetype.
If you want switch-hitting to be the go-to strategy for kineticists making Ride the Blast an auto-select would be good, too.
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I object to the notion that Gurren Laganning your way through five trolls is something a Geokineticist should not be allowed to do.
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I feel more comfortable if ranged wasn't the default assumption. I expressed concern that this will end up a blaster first and foremost.
Wait I'm NOT supposed to drill through monsters with a rock drill?
Honestly it would be cool to double the d6s to use the blast as a melee standard action. Not ideal but I'd take it.
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Out of curiosity, Kinetic Cover says pick one face of a square within thirty feet, is this just simply front back left right or does it count top and bottom facing as well and if so would that include the elevated square in let's say a charge path of a flying enemy or does it have to be anchored to a surface of some sort?
Another random thought, what melee feats are you guys taking? I'm making an electric melee build for a lvl 8 module, (based on Benimaru) and I have little clue on what to take.
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Constructing a strawman where anyone who disagrees with you on getting rid of burn entirely is someone who loves the class exactly as is and does not want to see any changes isn't very helpful, either...I don't think criticizing others for not loving the class exactly as is helps.
In fact, it's rude, and destroys the point of the playtest.
Stop it.
False. I never created a strawman.
I never advocated getting rid of burn, but making work differently.
I am saying attacking individuals, you know, the people themselves, is wrong.
Disagreeing is fine. That is the point. Personal attacks? Let's not.
I love the class, and so does everyone taking their time to speak their mind here, to make it the best it can be.
I don't understand what could possibly be wrong with advocating this?
Love the class. I would like to see an archetype that takes lethal damage from burn that can be healed normally, but with some sort multiplier as time goes on that can double, triple, etc the burn damage you take in a fight. Kind of like the 3.5 frenzied berserker, you just drop dead at the end after pulling off the un-imaginable.
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I like this class I can do cool things with it. However I think the Metakinesis should be feats that you take or the player gets to pick the one of them. I would prefer Quicken first before the other but that's just me. My Dm is letting me play suli kineticist in their up coming Reign of Winter campaign.
Some more remarks:
- I don't see the point of kinetic fist. Can't you just form a cestus with kinetic blade and more or less do the same thing? I know the game effect is not exactly the same but it seems too much alike to be two different talents (maybe they should also be baked into wild blast).
- Say, at the start of the day I invest burn in my defence and kinetic form. I do some adventuring and afterwards the party arrives at a town. The guard warns them the townsfolk are superstitious/peace-loving/not fond of adventurers so asks to behave like normal people. I deactivate my kinetic form and shield because apparently the local villagers don't like an elemental running around in their town. However, if I read everything correctly my burn is still present and spent. Afterwards I have another combat (maybe bandits attack the town), do I have to spend burn AGAIN to activate my defence and kinetic form, gaining AGAIN nonlethal HP damage? If yes this might be a serious problem in actual play.
* Maybe allow abilities to be paused but afterwards resumed? This way when you spent burn for for example kinetic form, your kinetic form is 'unlocked' for the rest of the day but you can switch between normal and kinetic form at will. This would help immensely in situations where being 'flashy' is unwelcome.
* Or say something like: when you activate talent x, FOR THE DURATION of the effect y burn is put aside and damages you. When you deactivate the ability the burn disappears and the nonlethal damage is healed normally. This would only be for the all-day duration abilities, not the actual blasts or healing power.
- Aether feels like it is pushed too much in the telekinetic department. Maybe allow it a force damage blast. And what about a kinetic form? Maybe change the text of kinetic form to include a form for Aether? Perhaps abandon the 'as Elemental Body' part and just write custom rules for the form?
Some more remarks:
- I don't see the point of kinetic fist. Can't you just form a cestus with kinetic blade and more or less do the same thing? I know the game effect is not exactly the same but it seems too much alike to be two different talents (maybe they should also be baked into wild blast).
They're significantly different mechanically (you can add attribute bonuses and whatnot to Kinetic Fist, but not Blade) but yeah having them be one Talent (or preferably just a built in function of the Blasts) would be better.
- Say, at the start of the day I invest burn in my defence and kinetic form. I do some adventuring and afterwards the party arrives at a town. The guard warns them the townsfolk are superstitious/peace-loving/not fond of adventurers so asks to behave like normal people. I deactivate my kinetic form and shield because apparently the local villagers don't like an elemental running around in their town. However, if I read everything correctly my burn is still present and spent. Afterwards I have another combat (maybe bandits attack the town), do I have to spend burn AGAIN to activate my defence and kinetic form, gaining AGAIN nonlethal HP damage? If yes this might be a serious problem in actual play.
Eeeyup. Lost it, stuck with your f*+@ton of nonethal damage, and contributes toward your max Burn per day to boot.
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Some more remarks:
- I don't see the point of kinetic fist. Can't you just form a cestus with kinetic blade and more or less do the same thing? I know the game effect is not exactly the same but it seems too much alike to be two different talents (maybe they should also be baked into wild blast).
- Say, at the start of the day I invest burn in my defence and kinetic form. I do some adventuring and afterwards the party arrives at a town. The guard warns them the townsfolk are superstitious/peace-loving/not fond of adventurers so asks to behave like normal people. I deactivate my kinetic form and shield because apparently the local villagers don't like an elemental running around in their town. However, if I read everything correctly my burn is still present and spent. Afterwards I have another combat (maybe bandits attack the town), do I have to spend burn AGAIN to activate my defence and kinetic form, gaining AGAIN nonlethal HP damage? If yes this might be a serious problem in actual play.
* Maybe allow abilities to be paused but afterwards resumed? This way when you spent burn for for example kinetic form, your kinetic form is 'unlocked' for the rest of the day but you can switch between normal and kinetic form at will. This would help immensely in situations where being 'flashy' is unwelcome.
* Or say something like: when you activate talent x, FOR THE DURATION of the effect y burn is put aside and damages you. When you deactivate the ability the burn disappears and the nonlethal damage is healed normally. This would only be for the all-day duration abilities, not the actual blasts or healing power.- Aether feels like it is pushed too much in the telekinetic department. Maybe allow it a force damage blast. And what about a kinetic form? Maybe change the text of kinetic form to include a form for Aether? Perhaps abandon the 'as Elemental Body' part and just write custom rules for the form?
From the file "Flesh of Stone (Su): As an immediate action, your skin
hardens like stone, dampening the impact of most attacks.You gain DR 1/adamantine. This DR increases by 1 for every
2 kineticist levels you possess beyond 2nd. By accepting 1
point of burn, you can increase the DR by 1 until the next
time you recover burn, to a maximum DR equal to your
kineticist level. You can dismiss this effect as an immediate
action, but otherwise it continues until you dismiss it."
The extra effect from the defense stays til you remove the burn. SO you don't have to re-burn to get the extra effect.
- Say, at the start of the day I invest burn in my defence and kinetic form. I do some adventuring and afterwards the party arrives at a town. The guard warns them the townsfolk are superstitious/peace-loving/not fond of adventurers so asks to behave like normal people. I deactivate my kinetic form and shield because apparently the local villagers don't like an elemental running around in their town. However, if I read everything correctly my burn is still present and spent. Afterwards I have another combat (maybe bandits attack the town), do I have to spend burn AGAIN to activate my defence and kinetic form, gaining AGAIN nonlethal HP damage? If yes this might be a serious problem in actual play.
The benefits for burn spent for kinetic form and defence goes until you next rest, even if you leave that form and reenter it later.
Not sure that's clear.
Following the general rules of the game (which as far as I know has no exception here), you've dismissed the effect. Just because it had duration left doesn't mean you can re-assume it.
If my 10th level Wizard casts Stoneskin, and dismisses it 20 minutes into the duration, he can't pop it back on 10 minutes later and enjoy the next 70 minutes worth.
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Not sure that's clear.
Following the general rules of the game (which as far as I know has no exception here), you've dismissed the effect. Just because it had duration left doesn't mean you can re-assume it.
If my 10th level Wizard casts Stoneskin, and dismisses it 20 minutes into the duration, he can't pop it back on 10 minutes later and enjoy the next 70 minutes worth.
"By accepting 2 points of burn, until the next time you
recover burn, whenever you use kinetic form, you can insteadgain the benefits of elemental body II."
"By accepting 1 point of burn, you can increase the bonus by 1 until the next time you recover burn."
It's in the text.
So in fact it's impossible to dismiss the effect? If I'm an elemental or activate a shield/metal body/... I'm forced in that form for the remainder of the day? Doesn't sound too hot tbh :-/ (pun intended)
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Thought about something:
It is a consensus that the DR from earth defense is one of the few things that's worth the burn. Why don't we integrate DR into fell the burn, then? Making the kineticist a bit harder to damage may counterbalance the frailty created by the burn points:
My take at it:
Feel the Burn (Ex): At 3rd level, a kineticist’s body surges with energy from her chosen element when she accepts burn, causing her to glow with a nimbus of fire, weep water from her pores, take on an earthen skin tone, or experience some other thematic effect. In addition, she receives a bonus on all attack and damage rolls with her kinetic blast equal to double the number of points of burn she is currently suffering, to a maximum of +2 for every 3 kineticist levels. Her flesh also becomes infused with elemental energy receiving DR 1/- and resistance 5 to her element(s) (Aether uses sonic) for every 3 kineticist levels.
That would be worth the damage.
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I don't think criticizing others for not loving the class exactly as is helps.
In fact, it's rude, and destroys the point of the playtest.
Stop it.
I have been pushing for changes to the class. I'm not even arguing against changing the numbers used for FtB.
What I am arguing against is fundamental changes to the burn mechanic.
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I have posted two for kineticist. Others have posted their own optimized builds that are different than what I came up with.Actually, there are quite a number of classes that have more than one "optimized" build.
LOl I'll discount the melee one as it's not really a kineticist build but fighter/kineticist multiclass build. So we're back to the 'one' way to make a single class kineticist.
Rynjin posted how I feel. There should be a multitude of ways to make a competent character of a class. Not what we have here.
Discounting a one-level dip to gain armor proficiencies as invalid would be equivalent to saying blaster wizards do not count because they take a one-level dip into crossblooded sorcerer.
And yet, every optimized blaster does exactly that.
I give more than one way to build a class and everyone who disagree dances around and chants "but that does not count." It counts; you just don't like it.
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Kinetic form is available to every except the character who goes dual Aetherkinetic.A minor quibble: due to how Expanded Element is set up, taking Aether as your element at first level permanently locks you out of Kinetic Form regardless of your second/third element.
Which is yet another nail in Aether's coffin. That element really needs some help. Every other element has some kind of major advantage to them: Earth has the only DR piercer and excellent sensory/mobility options, Fire has the best end-game accuracy due to ignoring SR (and once they get the talent Mark hinted at that lets them punch through energy resistance, their most glaring weakness will drop off), Air has the best Kinetic Form, the longest range, and the magic that is permanent flight at really low levels, Water has the best defenses and debuffs. Aether has... what, exactly? The worst composite blast, issues using core class features (Quick Draw is mandatory for them), locked out of the best two Wild Talents (Kinetic Form and Ride the Blast)... they're sort-of-alright in the utility department but outshone by Earth and Water alike in that regard.
Kinetic Form has two requirements.
1) access to an element
2) 10th level kineticist
Only a aetherkineticist who doubles down on aether is unable to take kinetic form at 10th level.
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Another random thought, what melee feats are you guys taking? I'm making an electric melee build for a lvl 8 module, (based on Benimaru) and I have little clue on what to take.
With electric you cannot take Power Attack. You could always go for Cleave and Great Cleave. Move action to gather elements followed by a maximized Great Cleave.
Whirlwind Attack with a Kinetic Whip might also be interesting.
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So in fact it's impossible to dismiss the effect? If I'm an elemental or activate a shield/metal body/... I'm forced in that form for the remainder of the day? Doesn't sound too hot tbh :-/ (pun intended)
It says "whenever," which implies the ability to use Kinetic Form multiple times per day while retaining the benefits of the initial Burn. I would assume that means you can leave elemental form and then reenter at a later point in time.
Why not give physical blasts a built in enhancement bonus. At 4th level it would be +1 and increase every 4 levels maxing out at +5 at level 20.
I agree the kinetic fist and kinetic blade should be built into the class and should only cost burn if your doing more then one attack in a round.
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Then why don't you stop replying to this thread and be content with whatever comes out? After all, you don't have to play the class...
You know what? I don't care anymore... I'm not in the mood to repeat the same arguments over and over again just because people want to pretend those issues are not issues at all.
Obviously, those who criticize Burn are not welcome here...
It's up to Mark now ...If he decides to listen to those who feel Burn is poorly implemented... Good. We'll have a better designed class... If he decides the criticism on Burn is unfounded... Too bad. I'll just resign myself to have yet another flavorful class with bad mechanics and houserule the hell out of it.
You sound like a whiny child. You may have a valid opinion but you are just coming across as a whiny child.
I like that Toughness can be thought of as a free use of Burn per day. Every race has a built in one free burn per day with their FCB. I think it would be cool to have a later- level option to recover one burn. You get the benefits in the meantime, but have that safety margin. More fun to use than a pool of free burn. Don't know if it's needed, since I haven't played this yet, but it's another way to approach it.
I was thinking, if I go unarmed strike electro kinetic fist I won't be hurting too much for melee attack bonuses because I can enchant my cestus. But I can't do that because cestus deals its own damage not add to your unarmed strike. I forgot because at my table that eretta is ignored and everyone is better off for it. This is my first time dealing with this ruling in a while so (I want do play test with RAW) the whole cestus thing feels detrimental to so many things.
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You sound like a whiny child. You may have a valid opinion but you are just coming across as a whiny child.
Perhaps, but when I start hearing things like "you can choose to ignore your class features" or "you can choose to play a different class" in a freaking playtest, it's difficult not to be frustrated...
"You can play a different class" is, short of personal attacks, literally the least constructive thing to be said in a playtest. The whole point is making the class something you want to play. "You can ignore your class features" isn't much better either, since helping with the design of those feature is the goal of every playtest.
Not really a power level thing but an aesthetic thing, does anyone else think that kinetic fist/blade/whip should be baked into the core blast?
I absolutely agree with this, but I'd probably either reduce the damage or prevent iteratives. Well, not with Fist--that seems like it's working fine.
I was thinking, if I go unarmed strike electro kinetic fist I won't be hurting too much for melee attack bonuses because I can enchant my cestus. But I can't do that because cestus deals its own damage not add to your unarmed strike. I forgot because at my table that eretta is ignored and everyone is better off for it. This is my first time dealing with this ruling in a while so (I want do play test with RAW) the whole cestus thing feels detrimental to so many things.
So, look, I don't like the aesthetics of being an elemental either, but if you have a reasonable GM, you can just look like you with some bonuses and plan on using the two slams from Kinetic Form with Kinetic Fist and an Amulet of Mighty Fists.
Why not make it were you recover 1 HP of burn damage per 10 minutes or hour so you can get more use out of it between combats.
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I have posted two for kineticist. Others have posted their own optimized builds that are different than what I came up with.Actually, there are quite a number of classes that have more than one "optimized" build.
LOl I'll discount the melee one as it's not really a kineticist build but fighter/kineticist multiclass build. So we're back to the 'one' way to make a single class kineticist.
Rynjin posted how I feel. There should be a multitude of ways to make a competent character of a class. Not what we have here.
Discounting a one-level dip to gain armor proficiencies as invalid would be equivalent to saying blaster wizards do not count because they take a one-level dip into crossblooded sorcerer.
And yet, every optimized blaster does exactly that.
I give more than one way to build a class and everyone who disagree dances around and chants "but that does not count." It counts; you just don't like it.
Your still in 'optimization' mode and I'm in 'valid, usable and playable' mode. I could care less what's in the optimization guides. A class should be able to hold it's own without taking every loophole, multiclass dip and 'best choice' of options.
From my point of view, you've been saying an optimized kinetisist works fine and I'm asking if a normally built one does, so you point me to another optimized build that's not even fully kinetisist. Does the average built work ok? That's a different question from 'can you build an optimized one that works'.
I like that Toughness can be thought of as a free use of Burn per day. Every race has a built in one free burn per day with their FCB. I think it would be cool to have a later- level option to recover one burn. You get the benefits in the meantime, but have that safety margin. More fun to use than a pool of free burn. Don't know if it's needed, since I haven't played this yet, but it's another way to approach it.Basically dismantle your defenses for HP? I can see that. Drop the two points you used to fuel Kinetic form and put them back in later if you need to. The problem comes from Aether. What happens with their shield, which you can now buff and unbuff at will?
You could say it doesn't restore uses of burn per day, only the health used thereon, but then it'll be a pretty rarely used feature I think, since you give up those permanent effects for the rest of the day. You'd also want to reword FtB to make sure that if you dropped *below* x burn, you also lose those bonuses to hit and damage, since you've severed that connection to the Planes.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I mean one burn per day. It wouldn't be unlimited, or it would be too strong. You just have an emergency option for if you're low on health and need to get back some of what you've spent. I'd love for it to be a swift action so it doesn't interfere with anything else.
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So, rereading shroud of water, is there actually anything stopping me from using it twice to get water armor and a shield? There's no indication that I can't just use it twice. It says I can pick one or the other and switch between them, but, could I technically just use it again and get the other bonus?
Random idea for burn that hopefully no one already posted(I've read a lot of this topic, but not everything): What if it did half you level as uncure-able non-lethal damage and half as normal heal-able damage? Keeps the immediate danger of using it, but long term you get a bit more of a buffer from it knocking you out. At level one it would do 2 damage instead of one, but that doesn't seem that big a deal... and if it is, you could make the lethal damage minimum 0(non-lethal would still be minimum 1 of course).
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Thought about something:
It is a consensus that the DR from earth defense is one of the few things that's worth the burn. Why don't we integrate DR into fell the burn, then? Making the kineticist a bit harder to damage may counterbalance the frailty created by the burn points:
My take at it:Feel the Burn (Ex): At 3rd level, a kineticist’s body surges with energy from her chosen element when she accepts burn, causing her to glow with a nimbus of fire, weep water from her pores, take on an earthen skin tone, or experience some other thematic effect. In addition, she receives a bonus on all attack and damage rolls with her kinetic blast equal to double the number of points of burn she is currently suffering, to a maximum of +2 for every 3 kineticist levels. Her flesh also becomes infused with elemental energy receiving DR 1/- and resistance 5 to her element(s) (Aether uses sonic) for every 3 kineticist levels.
That would be worth the damage.
Such a good idea I reposted.
I like the image of Burn making you ooze your element as you give yourself over to it's influence.
I still feel like FtB doesn't do much but make a debatable trade. Whether it's hardcoded into the class or granted with with a wild talent I'd like to see buffs based on FtB if it survives to the final version.
That gets into a can of worms involving fire elementals as light sources, etc. The class is not intended to receive penalties to Stealth, though just like with many other transformative class features of other classes, it may make disguising harder if you don't use a hat of disguise or the like.Once you accept the burn, you get those benefits for the rest of the day (or longer I guess if you don't recover burn the next day by not resting).So you are stuck with the penalty to stealth until you sleep, damn.
This actually brings up another worry that I have had about this class. Once you take some burn and have Feel the Burn running, you look really really out of place in a city. People aren't going to let you walk into a building if it looks like you are on fire!
I like the idea of the visual effect, but in games where GMs take notice if it players will have to wear a Hat of Disguise just to get around. It it is about as bad as dealing with an eidolon in a town. Some players will feel like they're forced to not use burn when in a town if the Hat of Disguise isn't available, and this will effectively give them a lower accuracy than a rogue.
Maybe the visual effects of feel the burn should only come up when the kineticist is using his abilities (or when he wants them to) rather than being an all day long thing?
