menacing aomfThats pretty clever... Next time I have a melee character that is in need of an amulet I know what to buy
Since I usually rode the blast to harass spellcasters and archers, I rarely flanked. The only time it came up was when the GM made us fight something with more AC than the tarrasque (over 40). With good rolls, I actually hit it.
I think the accuracy "issue" is about perception and privilege, not real numbers or playtesting.
To a lot of people, they don't care what the actual accuracy is, only that the kineticist isn't "shorted" some attack bonuses that other similar classes get. It doesn't matter that most classes actually have more accuracy on their first attack than is necessary or helpful.
People see low dpr (and I think you know, Mark, that this is the case) and just jump at the problem shared by the other weak classes like monk and rogue that lack dpr. Those classes really have sufficient accuracy for one attack to land, they just both have to and can't afford to take penalties to hit and land iteratives to compete.
In this case, though, it's definitely damage that's short, not accuracy.
I am running my hydrokineticist through shiroi's suggested playtest challenge now and having no trouble. I have 18 to hit (just need a 3 for those centipedes) and they can't touch me (38 AC and the low wall blocks their trample). But, it's taking too long to kill these things, even hitting every round. I will post a full report when I come up with an alternate build to compete against.
But yeah, top priorities for me:
1) Damage!
2) More Wild Talents and/or separate blast infusions from utility powers
3) Unlock extra wild talent from the level limitNot to discourage the first test, but I made it when I was very much asleep. Check the new one out.
This one includes a party with you, as suggested by Mark, and a longer and better thought out utility and skills section, as well as several Mook combats instead of a single one.
Unfortunately, to use the Iconic characters as the party members, the only standard I felt would be fair, I had to make the party level 7.
Eh, 5 level 7s is about the same as 1 level 10 in CR. No biggie there, I'd say :)
Oh. Ok. So now I can go back to the goodness that is being able to Earth Glide and Fly. Nice.
So I'm wondering, then, where the strong sentiment that it does is coming from? I think everyone more-or-less agreed its accuracy was fine at lower levels, before it starts falling more behind in BAB. And my playtests back my own math (in fact, the accuracy on the iteratives is rather high, even). Plus you and I were pretty conservative, Jason. So what all were the people fighting when they kept missing all the time? Or did they roll super-terribly all the time? I need to know how this could be so I can make sure I have the accuracy where it should be in the final version.
In the 9th level playtest I ran with 15 point buy the geokinectist had a 14 to hit with full feel the burn running and Point Blank Shot. He was a bit more focused on Constitution than Dexterity, but that ended up with him having (after magic items) a 18 Dex and a 20 Con, which is a long shot from the 26 or 28 in either ability score.
He had even odds to hit ACs on average, on the things easy to hit in the adventure he got hits with a 6 on the attack roll, but for the bulk of the encounters he needed to roll a 10 to hit.
When the Adult Blue Dragon (a very hard fight for the 5 person 9th level party) came in and buffed for a 36 AC, there was very little he could do. Other party members were able to buff the party and strip away some of the dragon's (admittedly overboard) buffs the AC was dropped to 32 and he still needed to very high numbers to get any hit in.
He had invested into a variety of options for modifying his blast range but didn't have anyway to accurately connect with the dragon barring grabbing flasks of acid and throwing them.
On the other hand the Medium was having similar problems, but was still more better off on his attack sequence even after he forgot his +3 to attack and damage from his Strength Spirit focus.
Anyone know how a ring of sustenance interacts with the burn mechanics? Can a kineticist heal the nonlethal damage with 2 hours rest with the ring?
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Really, I think the FtB requirement is what's upsetting people (it's certainly an issue for me). They feel like the Class shouldn't need to take lots of damage to be effective at what seems to be regarded as a baseline level...and they have a point. Nobody else has to.
I actually really like the Burn mechanic, and think it's fun and shiny...but I also think it should be something you do throughout the day as needed, not something you intentionally get several points of in the first fight to be firing on all cylinders for the rest of the day. The latter is pretty much optimal from the perspective of the rules, but very counterintuitive aqnd unpleasant thematically.
As an idea, make Feel the burn activate at it's full level at one point of Burn, so at high levels as long as you have a single point of burn going, you've got the full bonuses. That should still get the flavor of Feel the Burn across while being less mechanically restrictive.
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I think the class may be misleading, in order to have an acceptable hit chance for ranged you need to max dex over con and max FTB.
Many plytests ive seen people maxing con over dex and many more ive seen where people refused to use FTB because of the unhealable damage, it certaintly feels like an annoying mechanic for a new player but the thing is You HAVE to use FTB to be able to hit thing. When you dont you start becoming subpar and people start complaining
So it seems its really easy to screw up a brand new kineticist by making a couple of bad choices
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Anyone know how a ring of sustenance interacts with the burn mechanics? Can a kineticist heal the nonlethal damage with 2 hours rest with the ring?
Well, you gain the benefits of 8 hours of rest.
If it works for Wizards, it should work for the Kineticist.
Do we really need to give another win to the Wizard?
Started with 17 + 2 human. Then put all stat raises into Dex. Yes, my Con was only 20. I would imagine that my Dex would at worst be 24. Do your players actually give themselves lower stats than the elite array? Even the elite array can pull 24 by level 13 with a +4 item.26 dex at level with just a +4 item? Unless he's a goblin, that seems rather high unless you have a rather generous stat generation, or your con isnt all that great. I can definately see having more success with a dex that High then i'd expect at my group. Starting stats over 17 are rare (and expicately forbidden in the game I myself run), so your character's dex mod is probably 3 higher then someoen in my group would be at the same level. Thats the difference between 3/4 and full bab at that level.Of relevance, he had 26 Dex once he hit 12, and the following magical gear at 13: "+4/+4 Dex/Con belt, +5 cloak, celestial armor, +2 ring, drp ioun, menacing aomf, +1 mithral buckler, lenses of detection, circlet of persuasion, sleeves of many garments, traveler’s anytool". This is under WBL for that level, I believe. His only accuracy-related feat was Weapon Focus.So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?Any chance we can see this playtest character? I think seeing what you made yourself would help us provide feedback if we have like a 'baseline' to compare to.
Elite array has them at 17, probably would have another +1 for levels to 18. But there is a sizable chance they wouldnt have both a dex and con item. Its also possible some points would have went into con since that is a key stat for dcs and for how much burn you can take (not to mention you will need those hit points with all the non lethal damage).
So no, they would probably have a 22 Dex at that level, not even a 24.
Note also in some groups there isnt even a guarantee of a +4 dex item. I've played in games where I only had a +2 item until level 16, because the gm just had whatever items were in the adventure or were randomly generated, and exchanging them wasnt an option (no magic marts).
Edit: Remember, on the box the key stat of the kineticist is Con, not dex, its very natural for someone to go with that as their highest stat instead of maxing dex
Started with 17 + 2 human. Then put all stat raises into Dex. Yes, my Con was only 20. I would imagine that my Dex would at worst be 24. Do your players actually give themselves lower stats than the elite array? Even the elite array can pull 24 by level 13 with a +4 item.26 dex at level with just a +4 item? Unless he's a goblin, that seems rather high unless you have a rather generous stat generation, or your con isnt all that great. I can definately see having more success with a dex that High then i'd expect at my group. Starting stats over 17 are rare (and expicately forbidden in the game I myself run), so your character's dex mod is probably 3 higher then someoen in my group would be at the same level. Thats the difference between 3/4 and full bab at that level.Of relevance, he had 26 Dex once he hit 12, and the following magical gear at 13: "+4/+4 Dex/Con belt, +5 cloak, celestial armor, +2 ring, drp ioun, menacing aomf, +1 mithral buckler, lenses of detection, circlet of persuasion, sleeves of many garments, traveler’s anytool". This is under WBL for that level, I believe. His only accuracy-related feat was Weapon Focus.So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?Any chance we can see this playtest character? I think seeing what you made yourself would help us provide feedback if we have like a 'baseline' to compare to.
Hit point wise, you had somewhere in the range of 8+(4.5*11)+(12*5)= 117 HP; but you were running with maxed out FtB so you take a 4*12= 48 HP loss netting a functional HP of 69.
So.... a level 12 character with 69 functional hit points? You've barely got more HP than if you just used the average die result of your hit die (57.5). Mind you, this is using average hit die results (4.5 per die), so if you managed abnormally high results on your hit points, it'd be a different story giving you as much as 39 extra hit points.
You've got roughly the same HP as a d6 hit die class with a 14 con at that level, but you don't have the awesome magical power to support that lesser hit die or BAB.
I don't think 70 HP on a medium BAB class is a good idea. Especially since you had to sink a substantial amount of money into an item (+4 con) for the sole purpose of partially mitigating the HP loss required just to reach a mediocre accuracy on your blasts.
Hit point wise, you had somewhere in the range of 8+(4.5*11)+(12*5)= 117 HP; but you were running with maxed out FtB so you take a 4*12= 48 HP loss netting a functional HP of 69.
Close, but I also had Toughness and FCB in hit points, so more like in the 90s. With lots of DR. With my DR and AC, I never really took much damage, even when I engaged in melee.
How does this class interact with spells that have effects determined by hit points? Dropping half your health at the beginning of the day is kind of scary... It also makes constitution based casting basically meaningless.
How does this class interact with spells that have effects determined by hit points? Dropping half your health at the beginning of the day is kind of scary... It also makes constitution based casting basically meaningless.
You mean like power words? Just like normal for nonlethal damage. You still have all those hp, so the spell doesn't work unless it has enough hp on it to cover your current hp, which burn doesn't adjust.
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I think from a couple places:
1. If you compare it against other primary combatants, the +to hit is much lower. Many dms (including some of the ones I play with) will adjust to the strengths of the party. So if say the fighter is hitting on anything but a 1, in the next session he will have higher AC enemies. A kineticist cant keep up in that situation, since not only does the fighter have full bab, he has lots of rooms for feats, and magic weapons as well as class features to add to hit (just about all combat focused classes have these sorts of benefits in some fashion).
Noboby is a accurate as the fighter, if he makes an effort. Raising AC to challenge the fighter cripples all 3/4 BAB classes and a smart GM should realize this. The same issue occurs when one player maximizes AC and the GM raises attack values to reliably hit that one person. AC ceases to have meaning for everyone else.
2. Feel the burn. This is obviously dependend on how much burn you do or dont take early on. If you take it early, then you get that benefit for most of the encounters, but some people wont spend limited resources like this immediately if they dont have to. Many adventures follow a sort of easy fight, moderate fight, hard fight pattern of some sort. Its entirely possible some of them dont have feel the burn maxed for a significant portion of the day.
My assumption has been: generate burn on defensive and all-day abilities in the morning, while your casters are preparing their spells. Afterwards, don't accept more burn unless absolutely necessary. Treat anything that would generate burn as emergency powers only.
3. Stats. Your stats are fairly high compared to some tables. If someone goes by the AP default 15 point buy, and the dm doesnt allow custome treasure, you dont have a 26 dex. You probably have closer to a 20 dex, maybe less if you cant get a hold of a dex/con belt.
Some of those stats came from Kinetic form. With a 20pt buy I started with an 16 STR and a 16 Con, even a 15pt buy can manage a 16 primary stat, two stats at 16 if willing to stat dump. I did dump CHA, but the points went into INT and WILL, not my primary stats.
16 base + 2 level +4 Kinetic Form = 22
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Note also in some groups there isnt even a guarantee of a +4 dex item. I've played in games where I only had a +2 item until level 16, because the gm just had whatever items were in the adventure or were randomly generated, and exchanging them wasnt an option (no magic marts).
That is going to mess with other classes much much more than the kineticist, though. The guy who specializes in falchion and can never get a +1 falchion even at level 16 because the monsters only dropped other weapons most of all. Games where you are level 16 and only have a +2 stat item are not the norm, and the math of the game actually does assume a baseline of certain key items— As a side note, I too love the idea of no magic marts and am not necessarily a fan of the fact that these assumptions exist, and Unchained will have a useful option for your group to fix the math and avoid magic marts. But the fact is, whether you limit the ability to find obscure magic items from later books (I do too!), access to core items like +X weapons and armor, +X stat boosters, +X cloaks of resistance are assumed by the game's math.
Started with 17 + 2 human. Then put all stat raises into Dex. Yes, my Con was only 20. I would imagine that my Dex would at worst be 24. Do your players give themselves lower stats than the elite array? Even the elite array can pull 24 by level 13 with a +4 item.26 dex at level with just a +4 item? Unless he's a goblin, that seems rather high unless you have a rather generous stat generation, or your con isnt all that great. I can definately see having more success with a dex that High then i'd expect at my group. Starting stats over 17 are rare (and expicately forbidden in the game I myself run), so your character's dex mod is probably 3 higher then someoen in my group would be at the same level. Thats the difference between 3/4 and full bab at that level.Of relevance, he had 26 Dex once he hit 12, and the following magical gear at 13: "+4/+4 Dex/Con belt, +5 cloak, celestial armor, +2 ring, drp ioun, menacing aomf, +1 mithral buckler, lenses of detection, circlet of persuasion, sleeves of many garments, traveler’s anytool". This is under WBL for that level, I believe. His only accuracy-related feat was Weapon Focus.So guys, I've been playtesting in the 11-14 range with a geokineticist who explicitly did not take kinetic form, nor rare metal infusion, nor magnetic, nor any odd accuracy boosters from other books like bracers of falcon's aim, reckless shot, etc. I am maxing feel the burn. I'm pretty much having no trouble hitting. When I switch-hit into melee, even my iteratives are usually hitting except against solo boss types. Can someone who was missing with a geo (or other kineticist who had no touch choices) walk me through the AC of the enemies they were fighting again?Any chance we can see this playtest character? I think seeing what you made yourself would help us provide feedback if we have like a 'baseline' to compare to.
And here-in lies the problem. You're relying on maxing Feel The Burn to achieve your to-hit.
With only 20 Con, you probably have roughly 135 HP at level 12 (8+5per level+60 Con+12 Favored Class).
Maxing feel the Burn IMMEDIATELY eats your ENTIRE Con bonus to HP. You now have less total HP than an equivalent d8 HD class with 10 Con.
That's not a reasonably survivable amount of HP. 75 HP is well within "1 round kill" for many CR 11-13 creatures, and easily within "Whittle you down with AoEs" territory for many others of any CR (a weak 5d6 AoE for its average of ~17 is enough to kill you in about 5 hits. God help you if you come upon a swarm of Erinyes or something who can spam Unholy Blight all day).
That's the problem with Burn, and Feel the Burn in particular. Your baseline HP is at 20. You are essentially, at any given level,treated as having a Con 10 points lower than it really is for the purposes of determining HP. You NEED a higher than 20 Con just to see any sort of bonus to HP at most levels.
THat's frustrating for people who don't want to be forced into the glass cannon role, especially when you're a glass cannon who fires pillows.
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And here-in lies the problem. You're relying on maxing Feel The Burn to achieve your to-hit.
With only 20 Con, you probably have roughly 135 HP at level 12 (8+5per level+60 Con+12 Favored Class).
Maxing feel the Burn IMMEDIATELY eats your ENTIRE Con bonus to HP. You now have less total HP than an equivalent d8 HD class with 10 Con.
That's not a reasonably survivable amount of HP. 75 HP is well within "1 round kill" for many CR 11-13 creatures, and easily within "Whittle you down with AoEs" territory for many others of any CR (a weak 5d6 AoE for its average of ~17 is enough to kill you in about 5 hits. God help you if you come upon a swarm of Erinyes or something who can spam Unholy Blight all day).
He likely also has Toughness (all of my playtest characters have), and maxing FtB only costs him 48 hp, not 60. He's probably looking at right around 100 hp left after maxing out FtB, which is low at that level but survivable - my last level 12 character had 94hp, and was mostly a d10 hit die character, although she was also admittedly a glass cannon - and as a geokineticist, he'll have DR to replace some of those lost hit points.
I'm really surprised how high the ability scores of Mark's character is , I rarely see Dex and Con that high at only mid-level.
Right, FtB is only 4 at this level, my bad.
Still, even with Toughness, shaving off 48 HP is dropping him down to the HP of someone with 14 Con...but he's paid for a whole 20, and a Feat, and used his FCB (so the equivalent 14 Con character, with the Feat, and FCB is going to have 24-26 HP on you).
Even then, sitting at around 100 HP (or worse, less than 100) is undesirable at those levels.
My last character (not counting the Vampire Inquisitor I have now, seems like a bad comparison point) to reach those levels was an Invulnerable Rager. He still dipped into low HP on many occasions, with DR 6/- and ~250 HP.
DR really only makes up for so much. It protects him from arrows, sure, but when you have a creature hitting 3 times for 1d10+30 or something, that's still a hell of a lot of damage for you to take with only 100 HP.
My perspective may be a bit skewed, however.
The main point I'm trying to make here is a character who has invested MORE should not benefit LESS.
I'm really surprised how high the ability scores of Mark's character is , I rarely see Dex and Con that high at only mid-level.
Well, this is the first (besides a Witch archetype) class who has Con as its main stat. I expect a 26 in your main stat and a 20-22 in your secondary stat on most characters by this level (Barbarian had 26 Str, 20 Con here, my Inquisitor has before Vampire suff 24 Str and 24 Wis, and so on).
I'm really surprised how high the ability scores of Mark's character is , I rarely see Dex and Con that high at only mid-level.
It came from not needing to buy a magic weapon, so in total cost it's the same as if, say, a wizard having a +6 Int item and a +2 Dex or Con item at level 13 (that gear was for 13, not 12).
EDIT: Yeah, basically what Rynjin said.
My last character (not counting the Vampire Inquisitor I have now, seems like a bad comparison point) to reach those levels was an Invulnerable Rager. He still dipped into low HP on many occasions, with DR 6/- and ~250 HP.
DR really only makes up for so much. It protects him from arrows, sure, but when you have a creature hitting 3 times for 1d10+30 or something, that's still a hell of a lot of damage for you to take with only 100 HP.
My perspective may be a bit skewed, however.
My guess is that I had a lot higher AC, and my DR was nearly twice as high (10 rather than 6). Most enemies had trouble hitting me consistently. They'd still nab a hit on their attack routine, maybe even two, but rarely more. They'd also usually have to turn off Power Attack to get those hits that consistently too, which helped a lot.
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I'm really surprised how high the ability scores of Mark's character is , I rarely see Dex and Con that high at only mid-level.
Considering Mark's background with PFS, they're pretty much exactly what I would expect to see. Probably 20 point buy (PFS and recent AP standard), I'd imagine at least one dump stat (CHA, probably), three points from leveling and the best stat boosting item he can get from WBL. I believe that Kinetic Form is also a fairly obvious choice at that level, so that would boost things a bit as well. 26/20 on your primary and secondary stats should be pretty achievable, and there's probably some pretty straightforward ways to do even better.
Hit point wise, you had somewhere in the range of 8+(4.5*11)+(12*5)= 117 HP; but you were running with maxed out FtB so you take a 4*12= 48 HP loss netting a functional HP of 69.Close, but I also had Toughness and FCB in hit points, so more like in the 90s. With lots of DR. With my DR and AC, I never really took much damage, even when I engaged in melee.
So you invested either a 16,000 gp item (+4 belt) or a 24,000 gp item (+4 belt *1.5 for same slot), a feat, and FCB all to mitigate the self-inflicted damage of Feel the Burn?
I mean, take a d8 class with average HP, a Con of 10, and put either the +4 belt, or Toughness+FCB on him and he roughly equals the same functional HP! Heaven forbid that class take both the Belt and Toughness+FCB!
You character invested significant resources into upping his Con for the sole purpose of mitigating the serious drawback from his class features, and you only achieves ~80% accuracy against equal CR opponents.
Think about that for a second. Against an enemy equal to your level, you have, at best, 80% accuracy. Heaven forbid you face something CR+2 or even CR+3, then your accuracy will start having serious issues. But even then, on average, you only managed a ~75% accuracy on your best attack!
You're running with 4 points of burn on your character out of a maximum of 8. You've effectively spent half of your daily resources for a simple +4 bonus. Sure, it lasts all day, but that's kind of sad.
Bards, Inquisitors, Summoners, Magi... when they spend half their daily resources to buff themselves for battle... well, s+~! don't stay alive for very long. The only two d8 HD classes that can't really buff their attack like the others, is the Monk and the Rogue, but they've got the same accuracy as you do using magical weapons, so any buffs they can generate put them over your accuracy.
I'm not saying the accuracy of the Kineticist is bad, my issues is you're expending significant resources to barely be adequate when it comes to accuracy.
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Have you considered, possibly, lowering the FtB scaling, but increase the bonus?
For example, have FtB cap out at 4* total levels (5, 10, 15, 20), but each level of FtB gives a +2 bonus? In this way, your character would have eaten only 2 points of burn damage for the same bonus, which is a significantly easier pill to swallow than eating 4 points of burn (and 48 HP loss) just to hit the baseline accuracy.
*3 levels also work (6, 12, 18) which gives the same maximum hit/damage bonus the current FtB does. I'd prefer the 4 levels of FtB if only because increasing the accuracy of blasts is arguably going to be more difficult than for other classes.
I'm really surprised how high the ability scores of Mark's character is , I rarely see Dex and Con that high at only mid-level.Considering Mark's background with PFS, they're pretty much exactly what I would expect to see. Probably 20 point buy (PFS and recent AP standard), I'd imagine at least one dump stat (CHA, probably), three points from leveling and the best stat boosting item he can get from WBL. I believe that Kinetic Form is also a fairly obvious choice at that level, so that would boost things a bit as well. 26/20 on your primary and secondary stats should be pretty achievable, and there's probably some pretty straightforward ways to do even better.
Again, the character did not use kinetic form or any of those other straightforward tricks. I'm not particular sure what you mean by PFS background. Do you mean in terms of point buy? Honestly 15 point buy (3.0 and 3.5 25 point buy) became the standard due to a small but important math error made by the 3.0 designers (they calculated the average point buy of 4d6 drop lowest by taking the point buy of an average rolled stat and multiplying it by 6, but since point buy doesn't scale linearly, that won't generate the average point buy).
EDIT: That said, I think I could achieve 15 point buy on my geo with little collateral (the main collateral being –1 to Will saves).
Think about that for a second. Against an enemy equal to your level, you have, at best, 80% accuracy. Heaven forbid you face something CR+2 or even CR+3, then your accuracy will start having serious issues. But even then, on average, you only managed a ~75% accuracy on your best attack!
Your best attack is your only attack, unlike those other guys. Unless you go blade or whip. That those iteratives are inaccurate with blade and whip if you don't target touch AC with them? That's actually intentional. It's actually why my accuracy with my blade and whip full-AC iteratives being high wasn't necessarily a good thing. If their accuracy of iteratives winds up being consistently too high, I'm probably going to have to give those forms a damage debuff when I put in the damage boosts that I intend to include.
I kind of wish burn was actually just a 1 to 1 hit point conversion. If you bumped up the burn a touch then you could see people taking burn, but it wouldn't eat your whole constitution bonus.
What's your will save for that character Mark?
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Oh, I know you didn't use Kinetic Form, that would have boosted your stats higher. And by PFS background I meant the fact that you probably built the character according to those standards, that is, 20 point buy, full WBL, etc. Some people are accustomed to home games where WBL is either unheard of, or exists completely out of the player's control with a lack of magic marts and things like that, so regular access to the things the game assumes you have might strike them oddly. I figured, (and you and Rynjin obviously agreed) that 26/20 was pretty much the standard, and would only seem weird in an environment outside of the standard, like a 15 point buy campaign with low or inconsistent WBL.
What's your will save for that character Mark?
+10 walking around, generally slightly higher depending on what the rest of the party is doing. It's certainly his weak point, which is why losing 1 would be a notable loss.
Oh, I know you didn't use Kinetic Form, that would have boosted your stats higher. And by PFS background I meant the fact that you probably built the character according to those standards, that is, 20 point buy, full WBL, etc. Some people are accustomed to home games where WBL is either unheard of, or exists completely out of the player's control with a lack of magic marts and things like that, so regular access to the things the game assumes you have might strike them oddly. I figured, (and you and Rynjin obviously agreed) that 26/20 was pretty much the standard, and would only seem weird in an environment outside of the standard, like a 15 point buy campaign with low or inconsistent WBL.
Ah, makes sense. Yeah, the math of the game unfortunately (until Unchained) assumes certain items. The higher the level, the more this starts to throw off the math of those non-standard campaigns that don't have 'em. If you don't have access to any cloaks of resistance, you gonna fail saves super-large amounts of the time at higher levels unless you're a paladin.
My guess is that I had a lot higher AC, and my DR was nearly twice as high (10 rather than 6). Most enemies had trouble hitting me consistently. They'd still nab a hit on their attack routine, maybe even two, but rarely more. They'd also usually have to turn off Power Attack to get those hits that consistently too, which helped a lot.My last character (not counting the Vampire Inquisitor I have now, seems like a bad comparison point) to reach those levels was an Invulnerable Rager. He still dipped into low HP on many occasions, with DR 6/- and ~250 HP.
DR really only makes up for so much. It protects him from arrows, sure, but when you have a creature hitting 3 times for 1d10+30 or something, that's still a hell of a lot of damage for you to take with only 100 HP.
My perspective may be a bit skewed, however.
What was your AC? I'm guessing something in the ballpark of 29 (+4 Armor, +3 armor enhancement, +8 Dex, +2 Ring, +2 Amulet)? 30 with a Jingasa, 31 with that 5k Ioun Stone. We'll be generous and say 32.
That's the exact same AC my Barbarian had at that level (He wears Full Plate, I took a Fighter dip), though you have a higher touch (when I'm not Raging. Ghost Rager is rad.).
So, that's not the advantage.
The real advantage is 10 vs 6 DR at 13. Which...I don't think even out given the HP advantage. You're shaving 4 extra damage off each hit, but you have less than half of the HP. Before I Rage.
Granted, comparing Barbarian durability to a d8 class' durability is kind of silly (the Barbarian is SUPPOSED to b more durable), but let's look at stuff on its own.
At the very high end you probably have a 34-36 AC (you shelled out for +5 armor and +3 Ring and Amulet).
CR 10 creatures still hit you on a 13-15 on at highest (Giants), so you're getting whacked by mooks some time, but fairly safe.
Fast forward to CR 13, however, and you're being hit on a 13 or so at the low end...so not exactly an ironclad defense.
So you're GOING to get hit every now and then, and most of those creatures can hurt you through your DR for a good bit still (EX an Iron Golem hits you on an 8 at worst, for an effective 2d10+6 per Slam). So you're kinda back to square 1. You've spent 4 Burn (52 HP) to gain an extra 4 DR, which seems like an even trade at best. Somebody better at the math than me can run that and see, but I think 52 renewable HP trumps an extra 4 "conditional HP" per hit you take.
And the trade looks worse for other elements. Water is doing great (putting the AC into "Lolno" range), but Fire is very sad, Air doesn't protect you against most creatures, and Aether is basically trading 52 HP for 31 back.
I think the class may be misleading, in order to have an acceptable hit chance for ranged you need to max dex over con and max FTB.
Many plytests ive seen people maxing con over dex and many more ive seen where people refused to use FTB because of the unhealable damage, it certaintly feels like an annoying mechanic for a new player but the thing is You HAVE to use FTB to be able to hit thing. When you dont you start becoming subpar and people start complaining
So it seems its really easy to screw up a brand new kineticist by making a couple of bad choices
This. My players thought that maxing con was a good idea (silly I know for a CON based character). Then they took the favored class bonus in skills because they didn't get any help from the class on that front. When FTB come around, they didn't want to eat large amounts of damage to get the buffs.
So significantly lower stats and no FtB made it so they couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. It's VERY counterintuitive to ignore your con while maxing dex and going out of your way to burn yourself to start FtB when at any other time you try your best to minimize your burn.
So you're GOING to get hit every now and then, and most of those creatures can hurt you through your DR for a good bit still (EX an Iron Golem hits you on an 8 at worst, for an effective 2d10+6 per Slam). So you're kinda back to square 1. You've spent 4 Burn (52 HP) to gain an extra 4 DR, which seems like an even trade at best. Somebody better at the math than me can run that and see, but I think 52 renewable HP trumps an extra 4 "conditional HP" per hit you take.
Ah, that's actually a really good question Rynjin. Thanks for asking!
It's actually not too hard to calculate and depends on how many hits you take to drop:
The golem does 7 damage per hit to me on average, so it would need about 15 hits to drop me from full. I take 4 more off each of those hits from the DR, so that means I save more than 52. That is, if that golem pounded me from full to KO, I'm better off with the 4 DR than the 52 hp.
The fact that the missing 52 is nonlethal and thus doesn't make you more likely to die on a freak x4 crit is a small side factor in the favor of the trade-off of burn for DR, as is the healability (its easier to keep someone with lower hp and higher DR topped up with the heal spell in a fight or an after-fight cure spam than the reverse; for example, if a level 13 cleric wanted to cast heal on me during the epic beatdown from the golem as I was about to drop, I would get back all my missing hp and then some, whereas without burn it wouldn't top me off).
Think about that for a second. Against an enemy equal to your level, you have, at best, 80% accuracy. Heaven forbid you face something CR+2 or even CR+3, then your accuracy will start having serious issues. But even then, on average, you only managed a ~75% accuracy on your best attack!Your best attack is your only attack, unlike those other guys. Unless you go blade or whip. That those iteratives are inaccurate with blade and whip if you don't target touch AC with them? That's actually intentional. It's actually why my accuracy with my blade and whip full-AC iteratives being high wasn't necessarily a good thing. If their accuracy of iteratives winds up being consistently too high, I'm probably going to have to give those forms a damage debuff when I put in the damage boosts that I intend to include.
Yes, your best (and only) attack is hitting 80% of the time. Most people I know try to achieve roughly 80% accuracy with their second attack. But even then, it's not 80% on average, it's 80% at best.
At 12th level you're hitting for 6d6+11, average 32, on a hit, meanwhile, most martials are hitting for somewhere in the realm of 1d8+22 (2-hand power attack + str 24 only) for an average of 26 points of damage. If they built for ~80% accuracy on their second attack, chances are high they're going to be hitting twice for 52 points of damage.
Keep in mind, this isn't taking into account class features to up accuracy and damage, or spells, or haste for another attack, or any other myriad of things a martial can take to up their damage even further. Many of these things are denied to the Kineticist (like haste, or weapon enhancement), which other 3/4 BAB classses all benefit from.
All of the other 3/4 BAB classes are going to hit more often, and as hard or harder, than the kineticist, as it currently stands.
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So you invested either a 16,000 gp item (+4 belt) or a 24,000 gp item (+4 belt *1.5 for same slot), a feat, and FCB all to mitigate the self-inflicted damage of Feel the Burn?Hit point wise, you had somewhere in the range of 8+(4.5*11)+(12*5)= 117 HP; but you were running with maxed out FtB so you take a 4*12= 48 HP loss netting a functional HP of 69.Close, but I also had Toughness and FCB in hit points, so more like in the 90s. With lots of DR. With my DR and AC, I never really took much damage, even when I engaged in melee.
How much would another class have invested in it's weapon, which would not include close to the benefits you can get from devoting 4 points of burn towards defenses and kinetic form.
So you're GOING to get hit every now and then, and most of those creatures can hurt you through your DR for a good bit still (EX an Iron Golem hits you on an 8 at worst, for an effective 2d10+6 per Slam). So you're kinda back to square 1. You've spent 4 Burn (52 HP) to gain an extra 4 DR, which seems like an even trade at best. Somebody better at the math than me can run that and see, but I think 52 renewable HP trumps an extra 4 "conditional HP" per hit you take.Ah, that's actually a really good question Rynjin. Thanks for asking!
It's actually not too hard to calculate and depends on how many hits you take to drop:
The golem does 7 damage per hit to me on average, so it would need about 15 hits to drop me from full. I take 4 more off each of those hits from the DR, so that means I save more than 52. That is, if that golem pounded me from full to KO, I'm better off with the 4 DR than the 52 hp.
The fact that the missing 52 is nonlethal and thus doesn't make you more likely to die on a freak x4 crit is a small side factor in the favor of the trade-off of burn for DR, as is the healability (its easier to keep someone with lower hp and higher DR topped up with the heal spell in a fight or an after-fight cure spam than the reverse; for example, if a level 13 cleric wanted to cast heal on me during the epic beatdown from the golem as I was about to drop, I would get back all my missing hp and then some, whereas without burn it wouldn't top me off).
Did you mean 17? And that's after DR (it's 2d10+16 normally, I pre-subtracted the DR 10).
That's good to know regardless, though I don't think "I have enough HP the Cleric can't fully heal me" is a bad thing, as you seem to be implying by saying it's cool he can top you up completely with a Heal.
Still, that's pretty much the best option alongside Water's "WOOOOOO AC!", and they both still rub me the wrong way. I just don't see any reason these benefits are powerful enough you need to trade a third of your HP for them.
For perspective, you're essentially spending 52 HP for a single casting of Stoneskin, that EVENTUALLY can scale to a better DR...if you're willing to drop 100 HP more on it. Or in Water's case, trading 52 HP for an Augmented Force Screen.
And those are the BEST options.
Your alternatives are "Trade HP for a piddling amount of fire damage when they whack me and I die horribly", "Trade HP for a boosted version of Entropic Shield", and "Trade HP for False Life (i.e. trade HP for less HP)".
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So you're GOING to get hit every now and then, and most of those creatures can hurt you through your DR for a good bit still (EX an Iron Golem hits you on an 8 at worst, for an effective 2d10+6 per Slam). So you're kinda back to square 1. You've spent 4 Burn (52 HP) to gain an extra 4 DR, which seems like an even trade at best. Somebody better at the math than me can run that and see, but I think 52 renewable HP trumps an extra 4 "conditional HP" per hit you take.Ah, that's actually a really good question Rynjin. Thanks for asking!
It's actually not too hard to calculate and depends on how many hits you take to drop:
The golem does 7 damage per hit to me on average, so it would need about 15 hits to drop me from full. I take 4 more off each of those hits from the DR, so that means I save more than 52. That is, if that golem pounded me from full to KO, I'm better off with the 4 DR than the 52 hp.
The fact that the missing 52 is nonlethal and thus doesn't make you more likely to die on a freak x4 crit is a small side factor in the favor of the trade-off of burn for DR, as is the healability (its easier to keep someone with lower hp and higher DR topped up with the heal spell in a fight or an after-fight cure spam than the reverse; for example, if a level 13 cleric wanted to cast heal on me during the epic beatdown from the golem as I was about to drop, I would get back all my missing hp and then some, whereas without burn it wouldn't top me off).
The percentage of your health healed means nothing in this game. Nothing in the game is determined by what percentage of your HP you have. It's all about flat numbers.
A guy with 8 out of 10 HP is not as durable as a guy with 80 out of 100 HP even though both have 80% of their current health. So being easier to 'fill up your cup' means nothing if your cup size is really small.
It's not like this is like drinking alcohol. It doesn't matter that 1 shot is equal to 1 bear, because what matters is the amount of liquid in the container, not the strength of the alcohol.
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What's your will save for that character Mark?+10 walking around, generally slightly higher depending on what the rest of the party is doing. It's certainly his weak point, which is why losing 1 would be a notable loss.
My level 11 geokineticist has a +10 will save, but he has a 16 WIS (counting a +2 headband) and a +3/+4 cloak of free will.
It is his weakest defense.