Speaking of DBZ, any news on having some martial support for the class? (combat styles, feats, proficiency, etc..).
Hello! Unfortunately it doesn't look like I'll get to playtest this class, but I have a few wording suggestions.
Wild Talents - How about changing this to Katas? I feel like that's more in line with the general theme, doesn't step on any toes of previous wording, and fits the idea of the anime blasters and Avatar.
Infusions - Since this also steps on previous game terms, and the word's association with liquids and such, it doesn't fit right. How about just Fusions? Or Modifications. Or maybe Additives? Any way you slice it, Infusions just doesn't seem right.
And finally, Geokinesis! It just sounds better, and it's Greek as others have pointed out.
Otherwise it is a fantastic looking class, with just some minor word fixes and clarifications.
After seeing that a kineticist wielding a bow or a gun is better than a kineticist actually blasting with the class powers, I wanted to check out whether kinetic blade/whip can compete with a greatsword or just slamming with kinetic form's natural attacks (probably with kinetic fist).
However, I realized that I don't think I really understand how kinetic weapon/whip work. I mean, I understand the actions involved, but not how it interacts with feats.
Kinetic blade becomes a weapon, but uh, does the weapon matter at all beyond "can I weapon finesse this?" If I make it a one hander, can I two hand it for better power attacking? Do I need to turn it into a weapon I am proficient in or will I take a penalty for making a non-simple weapon?
Can I make it into a weapon that I could throw, like a spear or dagger? If I can, kinetic blade is the way to go since I could free empower and vital strike at range.
Can I make it into a shield to bash with (and interact with shield slam type feats?). Would it provide an AC bonus? Same question on if I make it a Scizore? Can I make a weapon with special properties like disarm or a sap to deal nonlethal?
And what about kinetic whip? What weapon does it count as? Is it a whip? So, I can finesse it? If it is, would I need exotic weapon proficiency for it? It seems unlikely because the kinetic whip is a reach weapon sized for you, but a real whip hits 15'. Does it mimic a weapon at all? Can I finesse it? There are no core reach finesse weapons that I know of. Nor are their core reach weapons that are 1 handed--can I get increased power attack efficiency with it by two handing it? Can I pirahna strike with it?
Further, how does this stuff interact with weapon focus? Do I take weapon focus "Cold Blast?" Or say, "dagger" and then I only get the bonus when I make kinetic blade into a dagger? Or do I take Weapon Focus in "kinetic blade?" Same question about Kinetic Whip?
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How does the Allying weapon property interact with Kinetic Blade?
Can you use Kinetic Cover for horizontal planes or just vertical, or push one over? Can you stack the wall on top of another?
If the kinetic blade is a monk weapon can you flurry with it?
When putting on shroud of water can i encase myself in a block of ice and shatter it coming out in ice armor?
How and what can a kineticist retrain?
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With the ability to use Weapon Focus for the Kinetic Blast, Blade, or Whip. do you have to select a Weapon Focus for each, or does Weapon Focus (Kinetic Blast) covers all three?
For the Kinetic Blade creating a weapon, do you get the Weapon's Critical Threat Range/Multiplier, or is it just simply 20/x2 due to using the Kinetic Blast damage?
How does the Allying weapon property interact with Kinetic Blade?
Can you use Kinetic Cover for horizontal planes or just vertical, or push one over? Can you stack the wall on top of another?
If the kinetic blade is a monk weapon can you flurry with it?
When putting on shroud of water can i encase myself in a block of ice and shatter it coming out in ice armor?
How and what can a kineticist retrain?
Kinetic Blade isn't an actual weapon, so it can't be enchanted to have any weapon mods (if that's what you meant by Allying?).
(EDIT: Looked it up. Good question! I'm guessing no, because it isn't an actual weapon, but it IS solid for a while... Very good question!)Kinda wondered too if it must be affixed to something, or if you could create like, a sheet above you.
Kinetic blade resembles an applicable weapon, but is not said weapon, and uses none of its mechanics. Not even with Aether. You use your blast damage, it's always 20/x2 (unless you have Imp Crit for your blast), and none of your weapon properties apply. I know this has been tagged at least a few times in the thread.
Unless you somehow found a way to make "Kinetic Blast" a Monk weapon - not simply LOOK like a monk weapon - then I'm going to go with no. I'm guessing this idea is why they created Kinetic fist.
As for retraining - never used it in any of my games (never had a need).
No idea, and I don't think it was covered previously, so good question!
With the ability to use Weapon Focus for the Kinetic Blast, Blade, or Whip. do you have to select a Weapon Focus for each, or does Weapon Focus (Kinetic Blast) covers all three?
For the Kinetic Blade creating a weapon, do you get the Weapon's Critical Threat Range/Multiplier, or is it just simply 20/x2 due to using the Kinetic Blast damage?
My understanding (per all the previous), is that a Kinetic Blast is a Kinetic Blast, and all Blade/Whip do, is shape or solidify it (hence the temporary nature). By this, weapon focus would I think apply to Blast/Blade/Whip, but I'm not 100% on Fist.
As for getting the created weapon's threat, as above, I can say with certainty: No.
It resembles such a weapon, but is still actually your blast made manifest.
Though (again as above), if you took Improved Crit: Kinetic Blast, it should in theory work for Blast/Blade/Whip.
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I set up a comparison at 10th level: my baseline aerokinetisist and the same build with either each point of burn granting +2 to-hit/+2 damage, Kinetic Bracers, or both modifications. DPR calculations are on the second page of each character.
Modified Burn + Kinetic Bracers
Either a modified burn or Kinetic Bracers renders the ranged accuracy problem non-existent With both a modified burn and access to Kinetic Bracers, optimization has room to move away from a focus on accuracy and shifts back towards CON. Re-visiting optimization with both changes would put ranged DPR around 51 using a physical attack and a peak DPR of about 62 making iterative attacks with a touch based Kinetic Blade.
Going NOVA and generating massive burn will, of course, generate a much higher theoretical maximum DPR, but only once or twice per day and cripple the Kineticist in the process.
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So if kinetic blade isn't the weapon what weapon focus do you take? Do you take weapon focus kinetic blast and it works with all variations? Do you take itwith specific blasts?
I assume that feats that apply to weapons like focus, spec or improved crit would not apply to a kinetic blade in the form of that weapon.
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About defenses of the class:
I think it would be thematically appropriate to give this class evasion and uncanny dodge. The kineticist is focused on blasts, used to the dangerous manifestations of his element. To survive his upbringing, he must get really good really soon to get out of the way. Also, his attunement with the surrounding aspects of his element can warn him of incoming disruptions.
I can see the class getting evasion and uncanny dodge, maybe even the improved versions of those abilities.
MAD = Multiple Attribute Dependent. It refers to a class that requires multiple separate attributes to function. In a Monk's case, they generally require a high Dex and Wis for AC to make up for their lack of armor, and Str for damage (which an Agile AoMF can mitigate), along with Con for survival.
Compare/Contrast SAD (Single Attribute Dependent) classes like a Wizard, who basically only needs Int; though a high Dex and Con is useful, it isn't necessary to function.
That's basically what it boils down to. MAD classes NEED higher attributes to function, while SAD classes only WANT higher attributes to be better. SAD classes function well with low Point Buy and get better with higher (slightly). MAD classes function poorly with low PB, and become functional with higher.
MAD classes are generally less powerful than SAD lasses, though not necessarily less balanced. Many SAD classes are considered too strong. A reasonable amount of MADness (like an Alchemist needing Int and Dex to function, or a Paladin needing Str or Dex, Charisma, and Con to be good) is great, and results in a balanced class. Too much MADness (Monk with Str/Dex/Wis/Con and Playtet Warpriest with Str/Dex/Wis/Con/Cha) results in a much less powerful class.
An Agile AoMF is simply an Amulet of Mighty Fists with the Agile weapon property.
So Rymjin, what are you saying, do you want this class to be MAD or SAD?
Right now i'd argue the Kineticist is borderline MAD (you need dex & con high, int (for skills) & wis (to bolster poor will save) medium and str & cha can be dumped (unless you want to carry more than your armor and want to be a party face (bad ideas))
So Rynjin, what are you saying, do you want this class to be MAD or SAD?
I was just answering Shiroi's question.
But, reasonably MAD with better class features would be best. Dex/Con is just fine, though both are already great stats so it's not much of a detriment.
I think adding something like 3+Wis mod in free Burn a day, or recovering Wis mod in Burn every hour (preferred, it feels better) would add an element of beneficial MADness, however.
I have a bunch of ideas for how I'd rebuild the Kineticist from the ground up, but it feels like it would be weird (disrespectful?) to post them here.
So, I love this class in theory. I loved the 3.5 Warlock, but I greatly prefer this implementation of the mechanics.
However, I have a major concern:
This is a class designed for blasting and, uh, it's kind of bad at it. I saw Mark say it shouldn't outdo a Fighter archer, and while I would prefer they were not quite so far behind, I understand and respect that, since, in theory, the Kineticist has some interesting non-combat tricks and utility.However, the accuracy is so bad on these blasts and the damage not nearly high enough, that I had to run a test. Would a Kineticist be better off with a Bow than their physical blasts? Would they be better off with a pistol than their energy touch blasts?
*snip*
I find it very worrying that the kineticst right now can do more damage with a bow rather than by using its class abilities. It is probably safe to assume that once it gets some items that benefit the blast though, that it will probably get better.
I find it very worrying that the kineticst right now can do more damage with a bow rather than by using its class abilities. It is probably safe to assume that once it gets some items that benefit the blast though, that it will probably get better.So, I love this class in theory. I loved the 3.5 Warlock, but I greatly prefer this implementation of the mechanics.
However, I have a major concern:
This is a class designed for blasting and, uh, it's kind of bad at it. I saw Mark say it shouldn't outdo a Fighter archer, and while I would prefer they were not quite so far behind, I understand and respect that, since, in theory, the Kineticist has some interesting non-combat tricks and utility.However, the accuracy is so bad on these blasts and the damage not nearly high enough, that I had to run a test. Would a Kineticist be better off with a Bow than their physical blasts? Would they be better off with a pistol than their energy touch blasts?
*snip*
It's also fair to say that in that example the blast kineticist had many unspent feat slots, did not take Weapon Focus despite having those feat slots, and based on my own math, likely either the blast kineticist was not adding feel the burn to hit and damage or the bow one was adding it (it only applies to blast as written).
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It's also fair to say that in that example the blast kineticist had many unspent feat slots, did not take Weapon Focus despite having those feat slots, and based on my own math, likely either the blast kineticist was not adding feel the burn to hit and damage or the bow one was adding it (it only applies to blast as written).
I cannot figure out how to apply Weapon Focus. Do you take it in "Kinetic Blast?" A specific one, like "Cold Blast?" A form like "Kinetic Blade?" What's the actual "weapon" called?
And yes, there were unspent feats because I could not figure out any that actually helped the kineticist's blasts (clearly, staples like Rapid Shot and Many Shot don't help). I would love clarification on which ones could help.
The maths were:
Archer:
8 (BAB) + 7 (Dex) + 4 (+4 magic weapon) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) - 3 (Deadly Aim) - 2 (Rapid Shot) = +16 to hit
1d8 (base weapon) + 4 (Str) + 6 (Deadly Aim) + 4 (magic weapon) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) = 1d8+15 damage
The Physical Blaster definitely had Feel the Burn:
8 (BAB) + 7 (Dex) + 3 (Feel the Burn) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) - 3 (Deadly Aim) = +16 to hit
6d6+6 (base weapon) + 6 (Con) + 6 (Deadly Aim) + 3 (Feel the Burn) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) = 6d6+22 damage
If Weapon Focus applies (however you apply it), then the physical blaster crits 3.25% of the time and lands a regular hit 61.75% of the time. That's 44.02125 DPR, which is still lower than the bow (which pulled 46.02).
Honestly, I don't want this to be true. I really like the kineticist! What feats will apply to the blast that will help here?
It's also fair to say that in that example the blast kineticist had many unspent feat slots, did not take Weapon Focus despite having those feat slots, and based on my own math, likely either the blast kineticist was not adding feel the burn to hit and damage or the bow one was adding it (it only applies to blast as written).I cannot figure out how to apply Weapon Focus. Do you take it in "Kinetic Blast?" A specific one, like "Cold Blast?" A form like "Kinetic Blade?" What's the actual "weapon" called?
And yes, there were unspent feats because I could not figure out any that actually helped the kineticist's blasts (clearly, staples like Rapid Shot and Many Shot don't help). I would love clarification on which ones could help.
The maths were:
Archer:
8 (BAB) + 7 (Dex) + 4 (+4 magic weapon) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) - 3 (Deadly Aim) - 2 (Rapid Shot) = +16 to hit1d8 (base weapon) + 4 (Str) + 6 (Deadly Aim) + 4 (magic weapon) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) = 1d8+15 damage
The Physical Blaster definitely had Feel the Burn:
8 (BAB) + 7 (Dex) + 3 (Feel the Burn) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) - 3 (Deadly Aim) = +16 to hit
6d6+6 (base weapon) + 6 (Con) + 6 (Deadly Aim) + 3 (Feel the Burn) + 1 (Point Blank Shot) = 6d6+22 damage
If Weapon Focus applies (however you apply it), then the physical blaster crits 3.25% of the time and lands a regular hit 61.75% of the time. That's 44.02125 DPR, which is still lower than the bow (which pulled 46.02).
Honestly, I don't want this to be true. I really like the kineticist! What feats will apply to the blast that will help here?
Hmm, what about Empowering with a move action (EDIT: Looks like you did). Is Deadly Aim improving or decreasing your damage load? With 8 BAB, I suppose you can have Improved Critical too, at the least. Those crits hurt bad!
EDIT: Also, it's fair to say that the archer had a +4 weapon, and the blaster thus would have 32,000 more gold lying around. That's not chump change at level 11 (in fact, it's almost half of all WBL). That much enhancement is actually what brought me to think there might be a missing FtB.
EDIT: Also, it's fair to say that the archer had a +4 weapon, and the blaster thus would have 32,000 more gold lying around. That's not chump change at level 11 (in fact, it's almost half of all WBL). That much enhancement is actually what brought me to think there might be a missing FtB.
That is one of the issues with higher level playtests. About the only items that help the ones that boost the actual stats and Bracers of Falcon's Aim. There just isn't much that adds to the blasts at the moment.
Hmm, what about Empowering with a move action (EDIT: Looks like you did). Is Deadly Aim improving or decreasing your damage load? With 8 BAB, I suppose you can have Improved Critical too, at the least. Those crits hurt bad!
EDIT: Also, it's fair to say that the archer had a +4 weapon, and the blaster thus would have 32,000 more gold lying around. That's not chump change at level 11 (in fact, it's almost half of all WBL). That much enhancement is actually what brought me to think there might be a missing FtB.
Yeah, there's a lot of money on the Kinetcist, but none of it helps their blasts. That's why I mentioned probably needing Blast-specific items. And I didn't do Improved Critical for the same reason I didn't do Weapon Focus--what is the name of the weapon I'm using? Still, even if that eeks out another few DPR (2.09625 to be exact), it's only just barely beating the bow. Shouldn't the blast be more than a fraction better?
Again, I don't want to be hostile here--I want the class to be great. I love what you've done with it. I just think the specific numbers need tweaking.
Not using Deadly Aim and including Weapon Focus and Improved Crit, the blaster has +20 to hit and deals 6d6+16 damage (empowered to 55.5 average). That's a 8% crit rate, and 72% regular hit for 48.84 DPR. So, better. By 2.82. Am I crazy for expecting/wanting it to be much better than that?
Edit: And the Gun still beats it! (since the touch attacks are all basically auto-hits because of the awkward way touch AC doesn't really scale) The issue there is that guns can break the rule about Deadly Aim applying (allowing them to trade excess accuracy for damage), while the touch blasts have no recourse for the extra to hit.
Edit 2: 32k out of 82k is 39%. I could be wrong, but I view a +4 weapon as a huge priority for any kind of striker, because of the DR issues--well worth the price tag. Plus, weapons cost twice as much as armor, so it make sense to put more of your budget towards weapons.
Edit 3: I could have also given the archer Improved Critical instead of Clustered Shots (since it only fails to bypass alignments and epic with a +4). I don't want to keep recalculating though. I feel like I've shown feat and item support are just about required for higher level playtesting.
Rynjin, I would prefer Int or Cha over Wis for extra burn but to each there own. Well any ideas you come up with will be fine, I don't see how that would be disrespectful unless your being mean about it or something like that.
Better, with a caveat that it is forked over hard by DR and Elemental resistances...so not better.
Rynjin, I would prefer Int or Cha over Wis for extra burn but to each there own. Well any ideas you come up with will be fine, I don't see how that would be disrespectful unless your being mean about it or something like that.
I chose Wis for 2 reasons:
1.) Shores up the weak Will save.
2.) Seems a better flavor for the class. It's more a sense, or a feeling, rather than force of personality or sheer intelligence.
Mark, there needs to be a psychic equivalent of the Arcane Trickster Prestige class. I mean, Kineticist/Rogue/Psychic Trickster just sounds like a buttload of fun.
Yeah, something tricksy like that would be pretty darn awesome!
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Some of my GM's refuse to ever allow a Gnome Bard or Gnome Illusionist at the table, because of all the pranks they could pull on party members... I kind of want to run a Gnome Telekinetic :P
That is why I think you should get to choose witch mental stat has an effect for the class. First of all it would be the first class that lets you choose, well without archetypes. Second it would open up a much wider range of builds and personality traits. Third, since people have different tastes and ideals, it would satisfy different needs and wants of the individual.
Tried today some duels with my friends to test the kineticist against other classes. We did a 25p buy with the hydro (the strongest of them in the current version), at 5th, 10th and 15th levels. The classes fought against were: fighter, sorcerer, oracle and ninja. All fights started in normal ground, 30tf. apart. The results:
-Against the fighter: At 5th level it was a quick fight, the archer fighter had 2 shots each round and dealt pretty decent damage with his +1 flaming composite longbow. At 10th and 15th the gap increased as the fighter got more attacks and a better bow.
-Against the sorcerer: At 5th level the sorcerer used Hideous Laughter and the fight pretty much ended. The pattern continued on 10th and 15th levels. Save of suck Will spells almost always take the kineticist down, and protection from energy spells can make his job hard.
-The ninja: He got invisible every time he could, and sneak attack damage eroded the kineticist hp. We assumed that water blast created a wet surface around the point of the blast and allowed the kineticist to use watersense. He got one blast and the ninja slipped away. The pattern continued at 10th and 15th, the kineticist created a slick area around him and used cover, but the action economy favored the ninja.
-The oracle got into melee and could keep beating the kineticist all day. Ample protection spell selection and healing, aligned with good weapon selection (battle oracle) made him very superior. At higher levels the difference increased, showing the greater gap in power.
So, what we noticed: The kineticist cannot compete in a single fight against a full caster. His will save takes him down and spells have a great range of options. His accuracy wasn't the greatest problem. His lack of defenses against spells was. His action economy is lacking too, he needs swift and immediate actions.
Against non-casters he lacks power to out damage them and to counter tactics. Spending a standard action to create cover just delayed the fight in one round. Mobility didn't help. By the time he could fly through ice path, every one could do it through items or spells.
Did you give the Kineticist equal access to items?
I'm guessing even if they didn't, it gives a lot more misc. item room.
For example, the (Combat Type of Choice) invests in a +7 equivalent weapon. Great for them.You, on the other hand, could get a belt for +6 Con/Dex with 8k to spare from the same amount.
So if kinetic blade isn't the weapon what weapon focus do you take? Do you take weapon focus kinetic blast and it works with all variations? Do you take itwith specific blasts?
I assume that feats that apply to weapons like focus, spec or improved crit would not apply to a kinetic blade in the form of that weapon.
Well, my statement hasn't been corrected by anyone yet, so I'm guessing my assessment was right:
Kinetic Blade + Kinetic Whip are just shaped blasts (Form infusion). Per the description, they take the form, but regardless of what weapon they emulate (or enhance in the case of TKs), the representative item is meaningless beyond flavor: "You form a weapon using your kinesis ... of pure energy or elemental matter ... The weapon deals the same damage as your Kinetic Blast's damage, and interacts with AC and Spell Resistance as normal for a blast of its type."The Kinetic Blade or Whip - as pushed by text and driven by the fact that you're using a FORM infusion - IS your blast.
You do not have an actual weapon. You have a blast. That you're using like a weapon.
Weapon Focus: Whip wouldn't apply, because while it acts like a whip, it is actually your kinetic blast you are condensing and shaping for an alternative use. Weapon Focus: Kinetic Blast would apply to anything where-in you're using your Kinetic Blast's stats (Interacting with AC/DR/SR), regardless of form - the sole exception of which is Kinetic Fist, because it specifically relies on your Unarmed Strikes / Natural Weapons, much like the Flaming or Shocking weapon properties, but stronger (Kinetic Fist also specifically says it ignores SR and receives none of your blast damage modifiers such as Con).