In case people haven't seen it, Mark's come out and said Kinetic Blades/whip doesn't provoke when used.
original quote:
Hi everyone. Back now, and I'm now catching up while also working on Unchained. I'm mostly caught up to everything except the main kineticist thread. Just one thing—I was really leaning to have it not provoke with specific language, but I wanted some playtest data to back me up. Then I found out that since it isn't it's own action, it actually automatically doesn't provoke without specific wording. Hooray! So thanks to everyone who provided playtest data supporting that it shouldn't provoke. My gut was right, and despite the lack of a necessity of specific language, I think it's worth adding anyway. For now, you guys can carry on having it not provoke. Expect that to make it into Jason's OP in the kineticist thread some day soon.
Assume a Telekineticist grabs a +2 GOOD Mithril sword and uses it to attack, it will still count as magic GOOD and mithril for purposes of penetrating DR, just not for purposes of calculating attack bonus or damage. Correct?
Nope.
Yup, so basically there's a thin layer of aether surrounding the object that prevents the magical weapons (but also inherently dangerous things like poison and alchemist's fire) from having extra effects. This would also be the case for special materials. That said, I'm going to need to clarify it.I Have a question for the Aether Kineticist, gonna quote the rules then ask the question:
** spoiler omitted **
Bolded the part talking about Magic Weapons, but what about Special Material items?
What's to keep an Aether Kineticist from buying 50 Cold Iron (or Adamantine) Arrows and blasting those into foes all day long?
Peter
Edit 2: Just to clarify, you're talking about using that with something like kinetic blades/Kinetic blasts, correct? If so, see above.
If you're talking about just using that weapon normally (like a Fighter with a big sword does, then yes, properties wouldn't be changed.)
I still think it would be cool to have a choice of int, wis, or cha as your "caster stat" to determine attack rolls, damage bonus, and save DCs. Though con should determine your burn points/score. Also all your abilities should be based on caster level not base attack bonus so your attack rolls and CMB checks would be equal to your kineticist level.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, you can put substance infusions on them but then you're really stacking up the burn for one blast. I'd be okay with a little less damage from the blast but did a little more than just damage.
Agreed. It would also help make the composite blasts feel a little more epic if they had lasting effects...
Blizzard Blast could mimic the affects of Ice Storm?
Magma Blast makes the affected area damaging to stand in?
Mud Blast could entangle/slow targeted enemies?
Sandstorm Blast could blind affected enemies?
I also think the composite blasts would be a bit more interesting if they were all, or at least mostly, fireball-style AoE's.
|
Yeah, you can put substance infusions on them but then you're really stacking up the burn for one blast. I'd be okay with a little less damage from the blast but did a little more than just damage.Agreed. It would also help make the composite blasts feel a little more epic if they had lasting effects...
Blizzard Blast could mimic the affects of Ice Storm?
Magma Blast makes the affected area damaging to stand in?
Mud Blast could entangle/slow targeted enemies?
Sandstorm Blast could blind affected enemies?
I also think the composite blasts would be a bit more interesting if they were all, or at least mostly, fireball-style AoE's.
These sounds like Pokemon moves.
I approve.
I've been trying to wrap my thoughts around this for a bit, as I scroll through these 34 or so pages. At a core level, I love it - but my brain keeps throwing out ideas that seem just out of reach.
The skill point thing has been beaten into the tile like Loki, though I agree (they don't need more than 4+/Lv though).
Were there a Light/Shadow type to work with Stealth, that would be awesome, but hey - like you said, page count. Glad enough we're even getting this class!
I think the three things that bug me most, all involve the Telekinetic.
First is the near total lack of Substance infusions. Regarding Form, you have Foe Throw, Many Throw, Snaking, Kinetic Blade, Kinetic Fist, Kinetic Whip, Extended Range and Extreme Range - all but two of which are open to everyone. That's OK though. I like the options. The only Substance infusion I can seem to find for Aether, is "Pushing Infusion" which - as mentioned previously - seems awfully underwhelming with it's 5ft cap.
Second, Telekinetic Finesse and Telekinetic Haul. I love them both! Well, more like love-hate. Fine manipulation is awesome, but would be more-so if the example of Disable Device were actually class. The ability to move an object 100lbs/Lv certainly has plenty of uses beyond combat, and can do awesome things for party mobility and location access if you play it creatively... but being able to throw a 1000lb object at someone for no increase to damage? That gives me a weird twitch. In theory, you could use it to elevate such an object and drop it on them for far more than your 5d6+11. On top of that, consider the area it would be hitting. How do you only hit one target if they're standing right next to their cousin Bob?
Third, ironically, is the Composite options - specifically damage minded. So you get Aetheric Boost and Force Blast if you double-up on Aether to stick to the guns of your flavor. Force is great and all (for all the right reasons), but potentially eating burn to produce the equivalent output of Fire's freebie? That seems like a taunt. At 9th, you could do either (5d6+5 + Con Mod) on a regular ranged attack, or (5d6 + 1/2 Con Mod) for 1 burn as a ranged touch attack while another element rolls them off for free - or twice as much for 1 burn (such as Blue Flame). I say ironically for this section, because it's weird to me that damage is the least of my three concerns. I assure you I'm not hating on fire - That's my typical go-to!
Someone had mentioned previously the idea of an infusion that allowed you to split up your dice into multiple attack rolls. This has my vote. Sounds like a great idea for Aether especially. Like diffusing the power of a single blast to propel multiple objects with less force, eventually building into the heavier force of Many Throw. Good way to justify some range trying to hit multiple targets.
I have a long-running campaign drawing to a close (probably this Saturday), so I'm looking to have this on hand and hopefully try a play test of my own. The idea of a villain Telekinetic that carries a sack of his victim's teeth for projectiles... Well, it sounds delightfully disturbing! I do like the fact that the weight of the objects they use appear to be irrelevant, as it's the Telekinetic Force that's really doing the damage. Gives lots of options.
Regarding Telekinetic Haul. I don't know. Maybe let it give the option to hit an area for a Reflex save if the object is sufficiently large enough? Maybe increase the damage by +# per die when opting for the reflex option? I love what it does, and it absolutely should be there, but the notion that a 900lb boulder, with all the force needed to launch it, would do an equal amount of damage to (and hit as much area as) the otherwise to-be-discarded portion of a bottle I just downed the potion from? That just feels off.
(Edited for poor word choices)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just in case anyone didn't know.
It seems that the bonus from "Feel the Burn" does not go away and in fact lasts all day
You could imagine it as the same amount of kinetic energy being applied in both cases, where one person chucks a house at 50 feet a second and a tooth at 2500 feet per second....maybe?
Ever watched Yu Yu Hakusho? Sniper the psychic human is pretty much exactly TK blast-except the items didn't get blasted.
I personally hope to just carry an ignot of adamantine (cause it's super hard and durable) and use that to fling at people. I probably wo't break it.. and it won't be too expensive if some jerk decides to pick it up and run away with it and I can't catch him.
Just flinging Ignots sound shilarious
I kind of want to use silver coins, but have them minted in my characters image. So when she kills people, she always makes sure to pay the reapers toll for them, and the reaper will know that she is the one who sent them.
I kind of want to use silver coins, but have them minted in my characters image. So when she kills people, she always makes sure to pay the reapers toll for them, and the reaper will know that she is the one who sent them.Ever watched Yu Yu Hakusho? Sniper the psychic human is pretty much exactly TK blast-except the items didn't get blasted.
I personally hope to just carry an ignot of adamantine (cause it's super hard and durable) and use that to fling at people. I probably wo't break it.. and it won't be too expensive if some jerk decides to pick it up and run away with it and I can't catch him.
Just flinging Ignots sound shilariousI'd be worried about something so pronouncly mine. eventually you'll get scryed and hunted down. or in one case of a game. Ambushed very badly cause you did something stupid and left acalling card haha.
but yeah.. calling cards are a good idea. I could try being Tuxedo mask and kill with flowers
Let 'em come. What's the worst that could happen?
(Bring it on Murphy!)
Got around to playtesting my terra(geo)kineticist yesterday, using Emerald Spire in a skype game with friends.
Went with half-orc for flavor reasons, starting at level one with the remaining party being a dwarven rogue, a ratfolk hunter (archery focused) and the iconic oracle.
First impression came from building the character. As written a geokineticist has two element-specific options for their element and the three generic ones. Pushing infusion seems kind of underwhelming and far too situational for your only infusion, while kinetic cover is typically little more than a distraction. Since I didn't want to be melee focused I picked up extended range.
Feats were not exactly hard to choose, but being a non-human ranged combatant meant that I had little choice but to go for point blank shot and wait for precise shot come level three, eating that significant -4 on my physical blast in the meantime.
In combat the kineticist performed decently at this level, somewhat keeping up with the hunter and its animal companion and vastly outperforming the rogue (who admittedly isn't that optimized since he'll be going for cleric down the road and is mostly wisdom oriented). I never had any real reason to use extended range in the small rooms of the dungeon so I didn't experience any burn (though it would only take a move action to negate anyhow).
Out of combat however, I may as well not have been there. With stealth and perception I had some minor utility as a scout (though the rogue and hunter did as well) and knowledge (dungeoneering) has yet to really come up. So the rogue and spellcasters were the only ones who actually had anything meaningful to do outside of smashing heads.
In summary, playing this character was quite a lot like playing a fighter that specializes in thrown clubs, okay but not outstanding in damage and lacking in utility. But the fighter would have better AC and accuracy while still doing comparable damage at this stage of the game.
Ultimately, I feel that utility should be prioritized in further design, more skills would be welcome, but I'd also like some elementally inspired utility powers since my supposed control of my element is really little more than "throw a rock" for now.
Something has been bothering me about Aether Kineticists, gathering energy (under burn) and Kenetic Blade. Sorry if this has been answered and I missed it.
The way I am understanding it as written. You have to have both hands free to gather energy to reduce the burn but because Aethers have to have an object in their hands to transfer the power to, they will never get to use this ability.
I think that is wrong because Kenetic Blade to me is clearly based on a Soul Knife, who makes force blades from nothing.
I don't see TK abilities being stronger than the other elements and should have this limitation forced on them or am I missing something?
Some thoughts I had this morning. (Shortly after waking up? Yeah... It's that kind of Friday)
Per several others on the idea of utility, I started to consider what sort of things each element could do. My first thought went back Telekinetics with Telekinetic Finesse, then sideways to Geo/Terra: Would be neat if someone with the metal blast could essentially get Trapfinding vs. metal objects, with a bonus equal to their dice of damage, but might be too awkward. Then I started to think - Why can't a Geo/Terra dig a pit trap?
So then the bending concept. It would certainly be wonderful if each group could get a Wild Talent for "Shape (Element)" around mid levels. Particularly to mind comes things like Moses parting water (Hydro), someone creating a safe-zone in tornado or a clear zone in fog (Aero), smothering or redirecting or augmenting existing flames (Pyro), or creating stone steps up the side of an otherwise flat cliff face sorta like Toph did (Geo/Terra). This leaves me without an idea for Telekinetics, though, which I feel bad about considering they already lack an Elemental Form equivalent.
Maybe if TKs had some way to supercharge and existing force effect, teamwork style? Like... Add their (total - not roll) to someone else's Telekinesis Bullrush check? Or stack their dice onto a mage's Magic Missile?
Just a couple early thoughts.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
This and a horse mean that you can full burn every round all day and still be a very capable fighter, healer, utilitarian, and more.
End up with 5600 nonlethal damage at the end of the night? Who caaaaares, just sleep it off. You'll be good in the morning. I mean, for someone of your religious persuasion you probably enjoy the equivalent of a mountain falling on you (softly) each day. Enjoy that burn. Hail Kuthon.
Seriously though, this feat breaks this class in half. Sure, it has a terribly evil god as a requirement, but it is pfs legal and does not make you immune to nonlethal damage (like a construct would be). Instead it lets you ignore the effects of breaking that nonlethal threshold for passing out. The horse lets you move around even when staggered, and that one attack action is good enough to use a vital striking energy whip on your foes. Hell, that last part is super thematic. Fire lash of ZonKuthon? You whip yourself with it before bringing it down for 10d6 odd damage on your foes from up on your high horse.
I know people won't like me outing their theoretical ops trump card, but I think that that's what beta testing is for. ;)
This and a horse mean that you can full burn every round all day and still be a very capable fighter, healer, utilitarian, and more.
End up with 5600 nonlethal damage at the end of the night? Who caaaaares, just sleep it off. You'll be good in the morning. I mean, for someone of your religious persuasion you probably enjoy the equivalent of a mountain falling on you (softly) each day. Enjoy that burn. Hail Kuthon.
Seriously though, this feat breaks this class in half. Sure, it has a terribly evil god as a requirement, but it is pfs legal and does not make you immune to nonlethal damage (like a construct would be). Instead it lets you ignore the effects of breaking that nonlethal threshold for passing out. The horse lets you move around even when staggered, and that one attack action is good enough to use a vital striking energy whip on your foes. Hell, that last part is super thematic. Fire lash of ZonKuthon? You whip yourself with it before bringing it down for 10d6 odd damage on your foes from up on your high horse.
I know people won't like me outing their theoretical ops trump card, but I think that that's what beta testing is for. ;)
Wow, the flagellant feat does completely break the burn mechanic. That's kind of a big problem, especially since it will force players into a single background in order to pick it up.
You wouldn't be able to use a move action to reduce burn with that feat, but I guess it wouldn't actually matter. A strong choice for blaster kineticists, certainly, though a weak option for switch hitters.
I think it would be cleaner to ban the feat than to rework the kineticist around it, all things considered. It's a next-to-useless feat that nobody other than a blaster kineticist would pick up.
You wouldn't be able to use a move action to reduce burn with that feat, but I guess it wouldn't actually matter. A strong choice for blaster kineticists, certainly, though a weak option for switch hitters.
I think it would be cleaner to ban the feat than to rework the kineticist around it, all things considered. It's a next-to-useless feat that nobody other than a blaster kineticist would pick up.
Yea, and the key part is that in order to become staggered the kineticist would probably have to have a combination of both nonlethal and lethal damage. That means that at the end of each fight he can just ask the party's healer to heal the lethal damage, and he'll be right back to normal.
As for banning the feat... I don't know. I can see that happening in PFS, but that is a tougher thing to have happen in the normal game. Sure the feat is (normally) worthless, but it is kind of bad form to offically ban or change and existing feat just because of a new class. Not that anyone would care in this case XD
....You know, I just realized a that there is a really weird corner case in the rules. Diehard lets you act when you're dieing, but not when you would be knocked out from having nonlethal damage? Wut?
Wow, the flagellant feat does completely break the burn mechanic. That's kind of a big problem, especially since it will force players into a single background in order to pick it up.This and a horse mean that you can full burn every round all day and still be a very capable fighter, healer, utilitarian, and more.
End up with 5600 nonlethal damage at the end of the night? Who caaaaares, just sleep it off. You'll be good in the morning. I mean, for someone of your religious persuasion you probably enjoy the equivalent of a mountain falling on you (softly) each day. Enjoy that burn. Hail Kuthon.
Seriously though, this feat breaks this class in half. Sure, it has a terribly evil god as a requirement, but it is pfs legal and does not make you immune to nonlethal damage (like a construct would be). Instead it lets you ignore the effects of breaking that nonlethal threshold for passing out. The horse lets you move around even when staggered, and that one attack action is good enough to use a vital striking energy whip on your foes. Hell, that last part is super thematic. Fire lash of ZonKuthon? You whip yourself with it before bringing it down for 10d6 odd damage on your foes from up on your high horse.
I know people won't like me outing their theoretical ops trump card, but I think that that's what beta testing is for. ;)
Still have a max burn of 3 plus con
Still have a max burn of 3 plus con
Right, but at high levels it gives you one or two hundred more hit points to go through before you go unconsious. That's signifigant.
I don't think that he burn mechanic will stay as it is now. It is unreasonably crippling and could be easily replaced for a more satisfying system.
|
End up with 5600 nonlethal damage at the end of the night? Who caaaaares, just sleep it off. You'll be good in the morning. I mean, for someone of your religious persuasion you probably enjoy the equivalent of a mountain falling on you (softly) each day. Enjoy that burn. Hail Kuthon.
If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage. This does not apply to creatures with regeneration. Such creatures simply accrue additional nonlethal damage, increasing the amount of time they remain unconscious.
There is a limit, though the feat is still broken on a kineticist.
There are composite blast missing:
Earth and Cold dont combine into anything.
Earth and Aether dont combine into anything.
Earth and Electricity dont combine into anything.
Fire and electricity dont combine into anything.
Fire and Cold dont combine but I get that.
Ahh, Found the issue. Cold and Electricity only combine with 1 other element each. Cold to Air and Electricity to water.
This and a horse mean that you can full burn every round all day and still be a very capable fighter, healer, utilitarian, and more.
End up with 5600 nonlethal damage at the end of the night? Who caaaaares, just sleep it off. You'll be good in the morning. I mean, for someone of your religious persuasion you probably enjoy the equivalent of a mountain falling on you (softly) each day. Enjoy that burn. Hail Kuthon.
Seriously though, this feat breaks this class in half. Sure, it has a terribly evil god as a requirement, but it is pfs legal and does not make you immune to nonlethal damage (like a construct would be). Instead it lets you ignore the effects of breaking that nonlethal threshold for passing out. The horse lets you move around even when staggered, and that one attack action is good enough to use a vital striking energy whip on your foes. Hell, that last part is super thematic. Fire lash of ZonKuthon? You whip yourself with it before bringing it down for 10d6 odd damage on your foes from up on your high horse.
I know people won't like me outing their theoretical ops trump card, but I think that that's what beta testing is for. ;)
A simple line of something like, 'when the non-lethal damage from accruing burn equals or exceeds your current hi points, you fall unconscious even if you otherwise wouldn't' added to the burn mechanic would fix that feat.
|
|
A kineticist with average hit points and 14 con (assuming 15 went to dex before racials) has 133 hp. With 6 burn (need to max out Feel the Burn so he can actually hit things remember?) he starts with 13 hp.
Kineticist 20: Hah behold! Thanks for my flagellant training, I, the mighty servant of Zon-Kuthon am immune to passing out from burn effects! Come at me fool!
Enemy bad guy (Sorcerer 10): Um, okay. Fireball 10d6+10 (single damage bloodline like orc or dragon, average 45 damage, 22 on a save) from 800 feet away.
Horse and Kineticist both make saves...horse dies, Kineticist is now staggered.
Enemy sorcerer laughs and walks, flies, d-doors, teleports away.
I'm not sure if I'd want to be conscious to hear the rest of the party bust up laughing. :)
In what world is a Kineticist only going to have a 14 Con at 20th level? Most Kineticists are going to have closer to 270+ hit points by that point. Your scenario is also impossible because a Kineticist with a 14 CON can't take 6 points of Burn (he's limited to 3+CON mod Burn in total).
You do pretty much have to take the burn, but that's generally going to leave you with 150+ "real" hp to work with, so Flagellant is definitely a feat that went from "maybe okay to good for some Barbarians" to "holy crap awesome!!!" for the Kineticist. Inner Sea Gods is a fairly recent hardcover too, so I can't imagine that this is only going to be noticed on the forums.
I would be more worried about that feat with the sub 0 Barbarian with guarded life and invulnerable rager.
DR doesn't reduce the damage from burn because it's not on attack. Same way DR doesn't reduce falling damage, or damage from starvation.
Also, there will be text added tot he final product that explicitly confirms this. See the first post in this thread for updates that clarify some things on the kineticist.
A kineticist with average hit points and 14 con (assuming 15 went to dex before racials) has 133 hp. With 6 burn (need to max out Feel the Burn so he can actually hit things remember?) he starts with 13 hp.
Kineticist 20: Hah behold! Thanks for my flagellant training, I, the mighty servant of Zon-Kuthon am immune to passing out from burn effects! Come at me fool!
Enemy bad guy (Sorcerer 10): Um, okay. Fireball 10d6+10 (single damage bloodline like orc or dragon, average 45 damage, 22 on a save) from 800 feet away.
Horse and Kineticist both make saves...horse dies, Kineticist is now staggered.
Enemy sorcerer laughs and walks, flies, d-doors, teleports away.
I'm not sure if I'd want to be conscious to hear the rest of the party bust up laughing. :)
Any level 20 Kineticist worth their class would have a Con of /at least/ 24. Unless you're saying that that sorcerer only has a 14 Cha.
At level 20, he would have an average of 90 hp from class levels, 140 from constitution of 24, 20 from toughness, 20 from favored class (at least until favored races are shown), and an additional 80 from an always on Water Elemental form from Elemental Body VI.
That's 350 hp, and burn is not lethal damage. It's nonlethal. And since you're a devotee of Kuthon, you don't even care what that number is until it reaches your current hp.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think a lot of the wild talents should be combined to save space and improve readability of the class. If a talent simply refers to another talent for its entire rules text, then why not merge the two into a single generic talent that the player can add the proper elemental fluff to on their own?
|
|
I have a number of questions about the Kineticist. I apologize if these questions have been asked before; I just want them clarified in one place before I play the class in a PFS game.
1. Does a Kineticist have free access to both simple blasts for their Focus? My take on the reading is “no”, they have to select one, but reading some of the forum posts makes me question this.
1a. If the answer is no; how can the Kineticist get access to their other simple blast so they can overcome what the other blast cannot?
2. Are both simple blasts types (physical and magical) Ranged Touch Attacks?
3. A sentence in the Kinetic Blast section mentions that all Kinetic Blasts count as magical for overcoming DR. I’m assuming that this means the physical blasts are magic for the purpose of overcoming DR/Magic but have to face DR normally otherwise. Am I correct?
3a. It seems silly, but just to be sure: Do magical Kinetic Blasts ignore DR?
|
1. Does a Kineticist have free access to both simple blasts for their Focus?
No.
1a. If the answer is no; how can the Kineticist get access to their other simple blast so they can overcome what the other blast cannot?
When you get expanded element, you can select your base element again.
2. Are both simple blasts types (physical and magical) Ranged Touch Attacks?
No. Refer to the specific text of the blast.
3. A sentence in the Kinetic Blast section mentions that all Kinetic Blasts count as magical for overcoming DR. I’m assuming that this means the physical blasts are magic for the purpose of overcoming DR/Magic but have to face DR normally otherwise. Am I correct?
Yes.
3a. It seems silly, but just to be sure: Do magical Kinetic Blasts ignore DR?
ETA: Yes (unless I missed it)