Dead Phoenix wrote: Mark posted this in the Medium topic and ask someone to post it here.
Mark Seifter wrote: On a sadder note, earlier today I've had a death in the family. I'll be on a transcontinental flight early tomorrow. You may not see much, or any, of me for a few days. Someone in this thread who reads this please let the kineticist thread know; I don't have time to read the 40+ posts that are new since last time I read it, and if I click into that thread to post, it won't keep my place. I read 100% of the posts you guys make, and I want to make sure I don't miss even one of them, so I'm counting on you medium testers.
Please throw a few dice for me and keep being awesome. Talk to you all later in the week.
~Mark
Best wishes to Mark and his family, and I'm sorry that he had something as unfortunate as that happen.
Rynjin wrote: kestral287 wrote: Zwordsman wrote: so people who are more knowledgeable..
does it feel like maybe they're having a hard time balancing ranged vs melee aspects? Maybe due to iteratives.
Maybe blasting needs iteratives, or melee should remove iteratives. But both aspects get a boost in power?
Since so far with what I can get from the playtests is that blasts are hard to hit and don't do enough damage, while burn-bursting with Melee can result in a ton of damage (after all it's blast level damages with iteratives so kinda like sneak attack +the metamagicableness)
I think what we really need is a Fast Bombs-equivalent; a Wild Talent that lets the Kineticist take iterative attacks with his blasts. I have thoughts for one rolling around in my head, but I'm not sure if it should be a freebie akin to Air's Reach or a talent that has to be paid for. My current thought is to make it a Form Infusion with a Burn cost of 2. That turns the Kineticist into a highly effective damage platform... but only in limited circumstances, as it restricts them from other Forms (meaning no Extended/Extreme Range, no Snaking, no barrage of Explosions to cover a room in minion-slaying death).
Removing iteratives feels like a mistake; nobody likes feeling useless when they totally waste a turn, but having your single Cold Blast whiff against the dragon's SR does just that. But making iteratives hard to use, turning the Kineticist into something that requires careful tactics to make use of... that's more okay. Personally I think "Barrage of explosions covering the room in minion-slaying death" is exactly what the Kineticist SHOULD be.
The class is basically a magic martial. That's what Mark has made it anyway (supposedly high firepower, low utility, goes all day), and that's a fine niche for it to fill. Why not make it excel at that?
If the Alchemist can do it, and Nauseate the survivors, why can't the Kineticist? I'd have to more seriously run the numbers to accurately compare, so right now this is conjecture, but I'm reasonably certain that a Kineticist high enough leveled to take Explosion would out-damage a bomb-chucking Alchemist, under the idea of taking out a room full of mooks.
Raw damage is close-enough to equal; 8d6+1/2 Con vs. 8d6+Int assuming level 16 (but the Kineticist is more likely to have a higher Con, so marginal difference at best). The Kineticist has a larger blast radius to make it easier to catch a creature in multiple shots; the Alchemist can get half the radius at best and doing that means no Nauseating. Alch also automatically rolls minimum on splash damage, whereas the Kineticist is hitting everything in its range equally. Conversely though, Kineticist allows a Ref save while the Alch only has to land a Touch AC hit against its primary targets. That said, by the third iterative landing the Touch hit may not be a given, while the Kineticist is guaranteed at least half damage no matter what.
Alchemist is also more limited on range (may or may not be relevant) and ammunition (high enough to not be overly relevant at this point).
Though honestly I'd be less concerned by that then the bombardment from several hundred feet away via Extreme Range.
Yeeees, however, you have to remember that the Alchemist can toss anywhere from 1-4 (7 if you use TWFing) Bombs a round.
A Nova option, certainly, but 2-7x the damage versus a single target (or identical damage to 2-7 additional targets) is pretty clearly superior.
Especially when saying the third iterative is unlikely to hit is untrue. Remember, AC goes up the higher level you go...but conversely Touch AC tends to go DOWN.
Even unmodified that third attack has a +2 to-hit. When the average Touch AC of CR 16 foes is about 10, that's still quite a good chance of hitting if for some reason the alchemist has 10 Dex, no Point Blank Shot or Targeted Bomb Admixture or other buffs.
Then toss in that the Alchemist is far more flexible when it comes to damage types (up to getting pure Force damage as an option easily available), and the Kineticist fares favorably when compared to the Alchemist in anything BUT damage as well, and it's clear there's a balance problem with the Kineticist.
I just got done doing an updated play-test pitting a lv. 6 geokineticist vs a lion one-on-one that you can find in the playtest feedback thread if you wish. I found that the kineticist in general doesn't have much it can do against grapple. Especially if dex based. At least against a Lion's grapple.
So, perhaps we could see a fairly early wild talent that at the very least helps with that? Say lv. 4, either giving a solid bonus to breaking grapple or by expending some serious burn, breaking it altogether. I could see thematic ways of doing this for most. Or perhaps there could be a wild talent that harms those that are grappling you. Burn them if fire, spike them if earth, freeze them if water, electrify them if air and pelt them with nearby rocks if aether.
Also, has it been officially noted whether the abilities (like kinetic blast and kinetic blade) cause AOOs?
I will say that the DR was quite nice. At least against a lion. May not be quite as useful against a nova style wizard or two-handed fighter. A universal way to increase AC might be nice. Maybe even nat AC. Doesn't have to be much really.
In this particular encounter, I spent most of my time grappled, so I couldn't properly test accuracy. However, I don't see how at the very least bumping the BAB up would hurt anything since that's pretty much all they're trying to do currently... hit things. Perhaps if more utility and battlefield manipulation were available (and I'm sure they will be in the future), then this wouldn't be the case.
I would have loved to use my mighty earth control powers to make it difficult for the Lion to move around the field. Unfortunately, for now, it was not meant to be.
Still. All in all, I find myself excited for the class.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I do believe in changing the Burn mechanic into something that is less worrisome in comparison to other class's abilities. (at some point the non-lethal damage will hurt the PC) This can be be offset with some bonus resistance to nonlethal damage, but I don't think such a class feature will be favorable.
I do also agree with the need for more utility, either in skill points and some basic cantrip-like abilities will help.
Also the fact that the telekinetic blast requires some sort of nearby unattended item to work seems problematic.
Ex.
PC: I use telekinetic blast!
DM:....The room is empty and has nothing in it to kinetically move.
PC:....well S&!t.
So maybe something akin to a force blast would do better.
Also the fire path will need some helpful boost to it's ability to penetrate fire resistance and immunity (by at least 10th level).
Damage-wise the abilities are sound, but some bonus to attack rolls would help.
Rynjin wrote: Yeeees, however, you have to remember that the Alchemist can toss anywhere from 1-4 (7 if you use TWFing) Bombs a round.
A Nova option, certainly, but 2-7x the damage versus a single target (or identical damage to 2-7 additional targets) is pretty clearly superior.
Especially when saying the third iterative is unlikely to hit is untrue. Remember, AC goes up the higher level you go...but conversely Touch AC tends to go DOWN.
Even unmodified that third attack has a +2 to-hit. When the average Touch AC of CR 16 foes is about 10, that's still quite a good chance of hitting if for some reason the alchemist has 10 Dex, no Point Blank Shot or Targeted Bomb Admixture or other buffs.
Then toss in that the Alchemist is far more flexible when it comes to damage types (up to getting pure Force damage as an option easily available), and the Kineticist fares favorably when compared to the Alchemist in anything BUT damage as well, and it's clear there's a balance problem with the Kineticist.
I wouldn't exactly say that me saying the third iterative "may not be a given" is the same as "unlikely to hit".
The entire discussion is assuming iteratives for the Kineticist, so he's looking at four blasts as well-- and comparing a Kineticist who would have to drop nothing but two Wild Talents into this to an Alchemist who threw in three feats for the TWF chain on top of two or more discoveries isn't exactly a straight comparison.
So four blasts vs. four blasts, Ref saves vs. Touch AC, Kineticist has the superior blast radius, Alchemist has negligibly-superior damage, Alch can swap blast types at the cost of handing the Kineticist an even larger advantage in blast radius, Kineticist has superior range, radius, and splash damage... Seems straightforward even without a number crunch, within the confines of "clear a room of mooks", a Kineticist with Explosion and Iteratives wins out.
Now, whether or not that's a problem is an entirely different can of worms, but it's enough to at least make me hesitant given that we have a statement from the designer pointing to utility and flexibility over raw power.
@zergtitan, I thought about that too, and decided that my character carried around Baoding balls, so that if a fight started, he could simply drop them as a free action and use them if nothing else was available (and then use Light Touch to return them to him telekinetically after the fight).
zergtitan: With telekinetic blast I expect the user to carry a small bag of pebbles and use a free action to drop it at the start of combat. Shouldn't weight anything and you should have enough pebbles to fire.
After the fight, collect pebbles and go on your way. Or if you want to be fancy, use a deck of cards, play 52 'pickup'. Now you have 52 uses of your blast before you actually have to pick up the cards.
@graystone, that gives me a thought... there aren't any telekinetic powers to let a PC control multiple objects, are there? I was about to edit my post to say "or make your character a juggler and use those both in- and out-of combat", but even if you tried to imagine three small objects as suspended in a "matrix" of telekinetic force, there's no mechanic that would allow that (something that, to a wizard, would basically be a refined version of Prestidigitation...)
Many Throw lets you shotgun a bunch of pebbles at once. Not quite the same though.
You can argue it via Telekinetic Finesse, which allows you to use Telekinesis for Disable Device/Sleight of Hand checks... and Sleight of Hand explicitly calls out juggling. Take that as you will.
Oh.. so this is my Telekenitic dudes plan in some random game for stuff to throw.
He's gonna have three things typically.. A whole bunch of chalk. (- weight and cheap to boot), some arrow or bolts in a quiver. and Caltrops
I can scatter the caltrops in front of me, and toss those from the floor.
granted no clue how many yo ucan throw before it's not so useful as caltrops though..
but having it around is still nifty.
I suppose techically you could throw a big of caltrops itself but i don't htink they'd open..
Really i wish the TK Blast that hits AC would ble able to use properties of the thrown item.. I'd love to throw abag of caltrops for damage and have it scatter in that square.
kestral287 wrote: Rynjin wrote: Yeeees, however, you have to remember that the Alchemist can toss anywhere from 1-4 (7 if you use TWFing) Bombs a round.
A Nova option, certainly, but 2-7x the damage versus a single target (or identical damage to 2-7 additional targets) is pretty clearly superior.
Especially when saying the third iterative is unlikely to hit is untrue. Remember, AC goes up the higher level you go...but conversely Touch AC tends to go DOWN.
Even unmodified that third attack has a +2 to-hit. When the average Touch AC of CR 16 foes is about 10, that's still quite a good chance of hitting if for some reason the alchemist has 10 Dex, no Point Blank Shot or Targeted Bomb Admixture or other buffs.
Then toss in that the Alchemist is far more flexible when it comes to damage types (up to getting pure Force damage as an option easily available), and the Kineticist fares favorably when compared to the Alchemist in anything BUT damage as well, and it's clear there's a balance problem with the Kineticist.
I wouldn't exactly say that me saying the third iterative "may not be a given" is the same as "unlikely to hit".
The entire discussion is assuming iteratives for the Kineticist, so he's looking at four blasts as well-- and comparing a Kineticist who would have to drop nothing but two Wild Talents into this to an Alchemist who threw in three feats for the TWF chain on top of two or more discoveries isn't exactly a straight comparison.
So four blasts vs. four blasts, Ref saves vs. Touch AC, Kineticist has the superior blast radius, Alchemist has negligibly-superior damage, Alch can swap blast types at the cost of handing the Kineticist an even larger advantage in blast radius, Kineticist has superior range, radius, and splash damage... Seems straightforward even without a number crunch, within the confines of "clear a room of mooks", a Kineticist with Explosion and Iteratives wins out.
Now, whether or not that's a problem is an entirely different can of worms, but it's enough to at least... Explosion doesn't work with Iterative attacks. Kineticist, unless they use a Kinetic Whip/Blade/Fist, does not get iterative attacks with blasts. This is one of the biggest problems with it as far as damage goes.
Also, just to point out, Alchemist can get ~7 bombs at 10d6+Int+a few other bonuses, for about 70d6+63 as an entirely unoptimized build. That's 133 splash in a large area. That will, easily, beat out a Kineticists damage. EASILY. Even an optimized kineticist. The kineticist will be doing at best 10d6+1/2 Con in a 20ft area at 120ft. That'll average ~45ish damage. The unoptimized alchemist well over doubled that as it's minimum damage. The alchemist also gets Extracts, other discoveries, can change it's damage type often with great ease, and can also apply conditions like Staggered with it's abilities. And it also gets more skills, and is on the same BaB/HD as the Kineticist.
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Man, I want my Roy Mustang Pyrokineticist concept to work.
I need to find ways to improve accuracy.
I want this class to work, really bad.
blackbloodtroll wrote: Man, I want my Roy Mustang Pyrokineticist concept to work.
I need to find ways to improve accuracy.
I want this class to work, really bad.
If it gets boosted up a little bit, you'll totally be able to do that. And that's what I'm trying to advocate with all of the posts, making ideas like this playable without being severely underpowered.
Mike Bramnik wrote: @graystone, that gives me a thought... there aren't any telekinetic powers to let a PC control multiple objects, are there? I was about to edit my post to say "or make your character a juggler and use those both in- and out-of combat", but even if you tried to imagine three small objects as suspended in a "matrix" of telekinetic force, there's no mechanic that would allow that (something that, to a wizard, would basically be a refined version of Prestidigitation...) There is many throw, a level 16 wild talent to throw at as many targets within 30 feet of each other as you have kineticist levels. This does make it the best aoe damage spell for pure daamge up to it's target limit as it isn't halved like the other aoe's. It also doesn't technically say you can't target the same target more then once, but as each hit at this level is doing 8d6+ I doubt it will be allowed to hit one target with all of the hits and do 8d6 16 times.
It should be noted the spell Telekinesis itself is only a level 5 spell and allows for moving objects, combat manuevers and for attacking and seems better then most things Telekinectics can do on a whole by itself. It seems sad that a Telekinetic would be outmatched by in many ways by someone with a ring of telekinesis.
FORCE BARRIER
Element aether; Type Sp; Level 6; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 10th, force ward
Using your telekinesis, you create an immobile sphere or
hemisphere of force around your square or squares. The force
barrier functions as a wall of force in all other ways. Activating
this ability is a standard action, and the barrier lasts until the
beginning of your next turn. Each round, just before the barrier
would disappear, you can extend this duration by accepting
1 point of burn. If an attack manages to destroy the force barrier,
you immediately suffer 1 point of burn.
I have a question(s) regarding the word immobile sphere.
Situation 1:
Kineticist is falling from 100'. Kineticist uses force barrier. Does he stay at 100'? or does he continue falling???
Situation 2:
Kineticist is flying and uses force barrier. Does he drop? or does he continue flying?
Situation 3:
If I allow force barrier to end. And use a standard action to activate force barrier. I assume I take no burn damage. Am I right?
Thanks for all kind replies from devs :D
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Someone is going to hate me for saying this, but I just don't want this to be the next Rogue.
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kestral287 wrote: Rynjin wrote: Yeeees, however, you have to remember that the Alchemist can toss anywhere from 1-4 (7 if you use TWFing) Bombs a round.
A Nova option, certainly, but 2-7x the damage versus a single target (or identical damage to 2-7 additional targets) is pretty clearly superior.
Especially when saying the third iterative is unlikely to hit is untrue. Remember, AC goes up the higher level you go...but conversely Touch AC tends to go DOWN.
Even unmodified that third attack has a +2 to-hit. When the average Touch AC of CR 16 foes is about 10, that's still quite a good chance of hitting if for some reason the alchemist has 10 Dex, no Point Blank Shot or Targeted Bomb Admixture or other buffs.
Then toss in that the Alchemist is far more flexible when it comes to damage types (up to getting pure Force damage as an option easily available), and the Kineticist fares favorably when compared to the Alchemist in anything BUT damage as well, and it's clear there's a balance problem with the Kineticist.
I wouldn't exactly say that me saying the third iterative "may not be a given" is the same as "unlikely to hit".
The entire discussion is assuming iteratives for the Kineticist, so he's looking at four blasts as well-- and comparing a Kineticist who would have to drop nothing but two Wild Talents into this to an Alchemist who threw in three feats for the TWF chain on top of two or more discoveries isn't exactly a straight comparison.
So four blasts vs. four blasts, Ref saves vs. Touch AC, Kineticist has the superior blast radius, Alchemist has negligibly-superior damage, Alch can swap blast types at the cost of handing the Kineticist an even larger advantage in blast radius, Kineticist has superior range, radius, and splash damage... Seems straightforward even without a number crunch, within the confines of "clear a room of mooks", a Kineticist with Explosion and Iteratives wins out.
Now, whether or not that's a problem is an entirely different can of worms, but it's enough to at least... I was speaking more about how the Kineticist works NOW vs how the Alchemist works, which means no iteratives.
Even with iteratives, the Kineticist wins...but not by a significant enough amount to discount the utility advantage the Alchemist would have, and at that point I'd call it balanced (especially since Fire would then be the most high potentially damaging, as it should be IMO, and only above 16th level anyway).
Mark should really rethink his position on not making it a DPR class, IMO. It could be one of the most fun and thematic classes in that vein the game has, and would fill what I think is a much needed niche (dedicated all day blaster who doesn't feel gimped by the loss of utility from being a normal caster).
Split each element into a different specialty to keep it interesting:
Fire: Firepower (duh)
Air: Mobility/Speed
Earth: Defense
Water: Battlefield control
Aether: Wild card (little bit of everything, not nearly as good as each element at any one thing...which is kinda what it is now, having a bit of everything. Decent mobility, decent defense, decent damage, decent battlefield control).
And you have a versatile class that can pretty much please everyone. Fire lovers get repeated Mustang-esque gouts of fire or explosions, Air users get to dart in and out of combat, hopefully making the first viable hit and runner in the game, Earth players get to feel unstoppable, Water players get to be Katara, and Aether users can be <Insert Iconic Telekinetic here>.
Then let the Expanded elements actually mean something due to that. Fire can snag Air to be a bit more mobile, Earth can snag water to be the unbreakable controller, and so on.
Make the Composite blasts actually do something besides double the damage of their component blasts. Let Fire's be a double damage explosion, sure but give others interesting effects like changing the terrain (Magma for Wall of Lava, Metal for Caltrops, Mud creates an area of 1/4 movement, stuff like that), or granting new debuffs to the blast (Charged Water has a chance to Stun, Plasma blinds people) or other weird but useful and thematic effects (Aether/Air can redirect itself mid-attack, mechanically working as a re-roll, frex).
This class has so much potential to be interesting AND powerful.
FORCE BARRIER
Element aether; Type Sp; Level 6; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 10th, force ward
Using your telekinesis, you create an immobile sphere or
hemisphere of force around your square or squares. The force
barrier functions as a wall of force in all other ways. Activating
this ability is a standard action, and the barrier lasts until the
beginning of your next turn. Each round, just before the barrier
would disappear, you can extend this duration by accepting
1 point of burn. If an attack manages to destroy the force barrier,
you immediately suffer 1 point of burn.
Situation:
Kineticist grapples/pins another of its size or smaller. And then activates Force Barrier. Are both in the force barrier?
Thank you dev.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I don't think so BBT. I myself and alot of other people don't want this class to fall short of everyone's desires. but I think alot of the comments and playtesting will help alot.
I think we just have to wait for the updated/revised version of the playtest to come out to see.
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blackbloodtroll wrote: Someone is going to hate me for saying this, but I just don't want this to be the next Rogue. Nah..
I totally agree..
jJust so many awesome ideas here. Those character ideas can stil lbe done prior to this class (as my gm's keep saying) but they take really focused down things to pull off, and they don't really "feel" right for the idea.
I so wanna make the sniper from Yu Yu Hakusho.
I'd love to make Armstrong as well.
I'd love a TKer who focuses on moving stuff (as opposed to sniper who just blasts things)
Quite a few concepts that can be done with a sorc/wizard into EK but just doesn't feel quite right via that.
FORCE BARRIER
Element aether; Type Sp; Level 6; Burn 0
Prerequisites kineticist level 10th, force ward
Using your telekinesis, you create an immobile sphere or
hemisphere of force around your square or squares. The force
barrier functions as a wall of force in all other ways. Activating
this ability is a standard action, and the barrier lasts until the
beginning of your next turn. Each round, just before the barrier
would disappear, you can extend this duration by accepting
1 point of burn. If an attack manages to destroy the force barrier,
you immediately suffer 1 point of burn.
Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through a wall of force in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually circumvent the wall by going around it, through material floors and ceilings). Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.
Situation:
kineticist activates force barrier, and on his next turn he spends a non-action to take 1 burn to maintain force barrier. While inside kineticist activates a teleportation effect. I assume that the kineticist teleports to his destination with the force barrier still up?
Thank for all replies devs :D
Well, after mistakes were brought up that I had made during my self play-test, I at least had a simple idea for tweaking kinetic blade (that could or probably already has been mentioned over 26 pages).
With Kinetic Blade dissolving during the end of your turn. What if you could simply accept some burn to keep it for longer? It could help when grappled as kestral pointed out in my play-test thread and those wanting to go more weapon based would probably find it useful not having to pull it up repeatedly.
Edit: Side question. Does Aether have a wild talent that's just like telekinesis, in that you can move / lift enemies / allies? I know they have foe throw, but that has to be used as an attack outright. I know they get haul and such, but I'm not sure that works with people.
I may want to lift my enemies over a nearby river of lava with my mind and get them to tell me where the missing children are.
Also some kind of telekinetic "geyser" would be cool. Like push only from the ground or from above (maybe from the front or behind as well) and it pushes a lot further than the push talent does. It'd be fun making enemies careen into the sky or flying enemies into the ground. If it worked from the front and behind and actually pushed them a fair distance, maybe taking damage if hitting a wall or boulder, I'd be excited. Kind of wish I could do the whole push backward a fair distance thing with the push talent though.
Rynjin wrote: kestral287 wrote: Rynjin wrote: Yeeees, however, you have to remember that the Alchemist can toss anywhere from 1-4 (7 if you use TWFing) Bombs a round.
A Nova option, certainly, but 2-7x the damage versus a single target (or identical damage to 2-7 additional targets) is pretty clearly superior.
Especially when saying the third iterative is unlikely to hit is untrue. Remember, AC goes up the higher level you go...but conversely Touch AC tends to go DOWN.
Even unmodified that third attack has a +2 to-hit. When the average Touch AC of CR 16 foes is about 10, that's still quite a good chance of hitting if for some reason the alchemist has 10 Dex, no Point Blank Shot or Targeted Bomb Admixture or other buffs.
Then toss in that the Alchemist is far more flexible when it comes to damage types (up to getting pure Force damage as an option easily available), and the Kineticist fares favorably when compared to the Alchemist in anything BUT damage as well, and it's clear there's a balance problem with the Kineticist.
I wouldn't exactly say that me saying the third iterative "may not be a given" is the same as "unlikely to hit".
The entire discussion is assuming iteratives for the Kineticist, so he's looking at four blasts as well-- and comparing a Kineticist who would have to drop nothing but two Wild Talents into this to an Alchemist who threw in three feats for the TWF chain on top of two or more discoveries isn't exactly a straight comparison.
So four blasts vs. four blasts, Ref saves vs. Touch AC, Kineticist has the superior blast radius, Alchemist has negligibly-superior damage, Alch can swap blast types at the cost of handing the Kineticist an even larger advantage in blast radius, Kineticist has superior range, radius, and splash damage... Seems straightforward even without a number crunch, within the confines of "clear a room of mooks", a Kineticist with Explosion and Iteratives wins out.
Now, whether or not that's a problem is an entirely different can of worms, ... Do keep in mind that in order for it to do good DPR with things, it's required to eat a very large amount of burn to do so. At best, you're looking at somewhere around 3-4 burn each time, unless you can select an infusion to reduce the Burn cost of without having it.
Also, Fire is still the most heavily resisted/immune element in the game, which really IS a serious mark against it.
Sidenote, if Manythrow allows you to target all of the attacks against the same target, then a telekineticist can actually be relatively decent at damage. At best, you're looking at ~100d6+200 damage to a single target, at the cost of about 5 Burn base.
Would a possible idea to make focusing on a single element be that, if you only focus on one, you only take 1/2 level in damage for each Burn? Or make it so that at level 10, you get a feature for your Primary element that reduces the burn damage by 1/2 if the blast has your element in it.
Yeah! that's a cool way to work single elements. If you pick extra element fire each time, it cuts the hit point burn in half. If you fully invested, you would take five hit point burn at level 20 instead of twenty. Maybe you could stack enough burn per shot to make your character push through resistance?
KINETIC BLADE
Element universal; Type form infusion; Level 1; Burn 1
Prerequisites kineticist level 1st
Associated Blasts any
Saving Throw none
You form a weapon using your kinesis. You create a non-reach
one-handed or light weapon in your hands formed of pure
energy or elemental matter, or for telekineticists, you transfer
the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand.
Use this form infusion as part of an attack action or full-attack
action to make melee attacks with this weapon, which deals
your kinetic blast damage on each hit (applying any modifiers
to your kinetic blast’s damage, including your Constitution
modifier or half your Constitution modifier as normal, but not
your Strength modifier), and disappears at the end of your turn.
The weapon deals the same damage type that your kinetic blast
deals, and it interacts with AC and spell resistance as normal for
a blast of its type. Even if a telekineticist uses this power on a
magic weapon or other unusual object, the attack does not use
any of the magic weapon’s bonuses or effects and simply deals
the telekineticist’s blast damage.
Is kinetic blade spell-like ability? If it is, and it is a melee type move. Does it provoke AOO? Since all spell-like abilities does.
I kinda like that idea as well I guess.
Like make the extra elements thing a class ability you get while leveling up (like it was originally). But give choices to invest on the original again. As it is you can do so and unlock some stuff (like that aether force blast, or a few other not-really composite blasts), but the next part where people can either chose another element or they could invest in one they already have to unlock burn discount or some other bonuses.
I also just realized...
You can totally make the Sailor Scouts with this class now..
Aetherist is sailormoon and tuxedo mask.
Tuxedo mask always uses the roses and his stick in battle- both of which somehow always pierce things they simply couldn't and stand attacks they shouldn't. Which is basically exactly TKBlast and TK blade.
Sailormoon uses TKblast with her tiara, and later uses straight up force blasts.
Mecury is water/ice
Mars is pyro
Jupiter is lightening/air
Venus is earth? well that fits a little less well actually.. Unless Earth gains an entanglement move.. then it would actually fit pretty well.
Fhalargn wrote: KINETIC BLADE
Element universal; Type form infusion; Level 1; Burn 1
Prerequisites kineticist level 1st
Associated Blasts any
Saving Throw none
You form a weapon using your kinesis. You create a non-reach
one-handed or light weapon in your hands formed of pure
energy or elemental matter, or for telekineticists, you transfer
the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand.
Use this form infusion as part of an attack action or full-attack
action to make melee attacks with this weapon, which deals
your kinetic blast damage on each hit (applying any modifiers
to your kinetic blast’s damage, including your Constitution
modifier or half your Constitution modifier as normal, but not
your Strength modifier), and disappears at the end of your turn.
The weapon deals the same damage type that your kinetic blast
deals, and it interacts with AC and spell resistance as normal for
a blast of its type. Even if a telekineticist uses this power on a
magic weapon or other unusual object, the attack does not use
any of the magic weapon’s bonuses or effects and simply deals
the telekineticist’s blast damage.
Is kinetic blade spell-like ability? If it is, and it is a melee type move. Does it provoke AOO? Since all spell-like abilities does.
I'll be totally honest that I'm not rules lord but.
I'm pretty sure it's still a SLA as form changes just change the output but the SLA is still used..? so I think it provokes using it. but I'd guess it would only provoke once?
One reason it might be neat to make it Supernatural.
Or like I kinda hope (just from my standpoint of characters I like). They give option to drop iterative stuff and just make one massive blast/slash. I've jus talways been fond of that style and it's hard to do in pathfinder reliabilty (really only ever found one build that can)
Zwordsman wrote: Venus is earth? well that fits a little less well actually.. Unless Earth gains an entanglement move.. then it would actually fit pretty well. Like such? :P
Quote: ENTANGLING INFUSION
Element earth or water; Type substance infusion; Level 4; Burn 2
Associated Blasts blizzard, cold, earth, ice, magma, metal, mud, sandstorm
Zwordsman wrote: Fhalargn wrote: KINETIC BLADE
Element universal; Type form infusion; Level 1; Burn 1
Prerequisites kineticist level 1st
Associated Blasts any
Saving Throw none
You form a weapon using your kinesis. You create a non-reach
one-handed or light weapon in your hands formed of pure
energy or elemental matter, or for telekineticists, you transfer
the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand.
Use this form infusion as part of an attack action or full-attack
action to make melee attacks with this weapon, which deals
your kinetic blast damage on each hit (applying any modifiers
to your kinetic blast’s damage, including your Constitution
modifier or half your Constitution modifier as normal, but not
your Strength modifier), and disappears at the end of your turn.
The weapon deals the same damage type that your kinetic blast
deals, and it interacts with AC and spell resistance as normal for
a blast of its type. Even if a telekineticist uses this power on a
magic weapon or other unusual object, the attack does not use
any of the magic weapon’s bonuses or effects and simply deals
the telekineticist’s blast damage.
Is kinetic blade spell-like ability? If it is, and it is a melee type move. Does it provoke AOO? Since all spell-like abilities does.
I'll be totally honest that I'm not rules lord but.
I'm pretty sure it's still a SLA as form changes just change the output but the SLA is still used..? so I think it provokes using it. but I'd guess it would only provoke once?
One reason it might be neat to make it Supernatural.
Or like I kinda hope (just from my standpoint of characters I like). They give option to drop iterative stuff and just make one massive blast/slash. I've jus talways been fond of that style and it's hard to do in pathfinder reliabilty (really only ever found one build that can) while I'm not positive on the rules either, but to make a full attack action I need to use everthing but my swift actions which means that the blade is summoned as a swift, free, or non action all of which don't generally provoke AoO
but yeah we are waiting on clarification on this talent so expect table variance.
playtest report for my kineticist
kineticist like skalds
that is all I have to report.
Mark Seifter wrote: Rerednaw wrote: Mark Seifter wrote: ...
That said, if anyone can find a build that is outperforming a topped-out fighter archer without spending burn, please let me know so I can make some adjustments. It is my intention that such a build should not exist. That gives me lots of wiggle room for more cool utility stuff, skills, and that kind of fun stuff!
I have to say I love the Kineticist.
However I don't expect one to be a DPR king by any means.
Yup! I just wanted to make sure to let everyone know that it was my express intention that we're not going to be doing more than the archer, thus giving breathing room for cool powers. If we do actually do more through some combination I didn't think of, then it's something to address! Quoting this both so it can get referenced again, and so that it can get the attention from Mark once everything's alright and he's taken care of his family.
The Kineticist, even assuming favorable houserules like Vital Strike, Mythic Vital Strike, and other helpful things like items to boost it's damage still falls behind characters with even a mild degree of optimization. An optimized archer of any sort will easily outdamage one. If it does get fixed, it can manage to do decently respectable damage, and assuming it gets a little utility/refines the utility it has(Like Move Earth being given some form of scaling so it retains it's usefulness), it'll actually be a pretty well designed class that gives a good mix of utility and flavor, while still performing well enough in combat to give it a good area. It won't step on anyone's toes or take a role from another class, but it would provide a good middleground for people that like the flavor of it.
Once I'm less tired, I can see about working up some actual builds with things and doing a comparison of current-Kineticist and hourseruled/errataed-Kineticist, and compare them to a semi-stock build for a similar role class like Fighter/Alchemist. Probably should be able to do that tomorrow, unless someone beats me to it, and I'd really appreciate people trying to look them over once I get them up to see what flaws they might have.
Mike Bramnik wrote: Zwordsman wrote: Venus is earth? well that fits a little less well actually.. Unless Earth gains an entanglement move.. then it would actually fit pretty well. Like such? :P
Quote: ENTANGLING INFUSION
Element earth or water; Type substance infusion; Level 4; Burn 2
Associated Blasts blizzard, cold, earth, ice, magma, metal, mud, sandstorm
Oh! hahaha. I thought that was just water actually.. nice
yup sailor stars~ I kinda want o play this game now
FOE THROW
Element aether; Type form infusion; Level 4; Burn 2
Prerequisites kineticist level 6th
Associated Blasts telekinesis
Your telekinetic blast can throw a creature instead of an
unattended object. If the creature you choose to throw succeeds
at a Fortitude save, it negates the blast entirely. Otherwise, if
your blast hits, both the thrown creature and the target suffer
the full damage of your telekinetic blast and the thrown creature
falls prone in the last unoccupied space along its path. If your
blast misses, the thrown creature can choose to occupy any space
within 30 feet of the intended target, it does not fall prone, and
it suffers half damage from your blast. This movement does not
provoke attacks of opportunity.
Is the weight limit for Foe Throw 5lbs per kineticist level? An adult human weighs 130pounds to 220lbs, and that does not include armor,gear and weapons etc.. At Burn of 2 Foe Throw looks really under-powered. Is that intended? Or will it be corrected?
Thank you.
Fhalargn wrote: FOE THROW
Element aether; Type form infusion; Level 4; Burn 2
Prerequisites kineticist level 6th
Associated Blasts telekinesis
Your telekinetic blast can throw a creature instead of an
unattended object. If the creature you choose to throw succeeds
at a Fortitude save, it negates the blast entirely. Otherwise, if
your blast hits, both the thrown creature and the target suffer
the full damage of your telekinetic blast and the thrown creature
falls prone in the last unoccupied space along its path. If your
blast misses, the thrown creature can choose to occupy any space
within 30 feet of the intended target, it does not fall prone, and
it suffers half damage from your blast. This movement does not
provoke attacks of opportunity.
Is the weight limit for Foe Throw 5lbs per kineticist level? An adult human weighs 130pounds to 220lbs, and that does not include armor,gear and weapons etc.. At Burn of 2 Foe Throw looks really under-powered. Is that intended? Or will it be corrected?
Thank you.
I gotta look it up but doesn't the wyld talent that makes it 100lbs per lv work for this weight lv as well?
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Foe Throw doesn't have the same weight restrictions as telekinesis. Humorously, by RAW you can throw the Tarrasque if it fails its fort save.
It should probably say that the creature must be your size category and then have it scale up by level (a level 20 Telekineticist SHOULD be able to throw the Tarrasque).
Arachnofiend wrote: Foe Throw doesn't have the same weight restrictions as telekinesis. Humorously, by RAW you can throw the Tarrasque if it fails its fort save.
It should probably say that the creature must be your size category and then have it scale up by level (a level 20 Telekineticist SHOULD be able to throw the Tarrasque).
bad guy juggles!
I so wish there was a way to use more than one form.. throw a lots at lots
Jiggy wrote: Mark Seifter wrote: Yeah, there was actually a source listing all the kineses on some occult site, and I was given the names from that. When I check now, it's saying that terrakinesis is more about nature stuff anyway and geokinesis is used for earth movement more often. We will certainly consider going geo. After all, it's all Greek to me! There's also the issue that "terrakinesis" and "telekinesis" sound somewhat similar when spoken aloud; the former almost sounds like a slurred version of the latter, and could lead to confusion at the table. Add my vote to "geo". I'm voting for geokineticist as well for the earth one.
Well Kind of thought more on the idea of combat styles for this..
So far I can see 3 major combat styles present in the class.
Melee
"bombardment" blasting
"focused" or "sniper" blasting.
Melee has been discussed a lot and is easily the most damaging from what I understad?.
I think I'd love Wyld Talent lines for each combat path.
Though I half want the class to be Full BAB. Then wyld talents lines.
One to use iteratives.
The other exchanging iteratives for more accuracy and damage.
So you could make a melee or blaster, who focuses on one shot or many shots. Do you want to be Piccalo shooting tons of blasts, or Goku with one big ole' kamehameha
I mostly look at the "sniper shot" kind of thing. So Like a wyld talent that increases the to hit bonus from FTB, a wyld talent that allows you to use Vital Strike for a burn (not a form to allow for sniping with the range increasers), maybe a talent for a "shot on the run" style.
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1 person marked this as a favorite.
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I still think you should get the option to make your blast a line or cone available at level 1. I have encountered more swarms at levels 1-5 then I have at 6+. Also this ability should be available to any blast.
I still think the Aether should bet a force blast automatically at level 1 even if damage is d4s.
I did find it strange that you had to take 4 wild talents to get the effect of telekinesis and even then it wasn't quit right.
I like the idea of each element having different specialties like Rynjin said.
You also have my vote for Geokineticist as well.
I would love to see an ability that lets you telekinetically move enemies(as a move action, will save negates) closer together so you can blast them with a line/cone effect as a standard.
After having played my Geo-Kinetisist a lot this past weekend there are several gripes/places where I hope to see improvements in the class.
Now that I have chosen my element, and what direction I want my wild talents to go (I am building a melee Geo-Kinetisist) I am finding that the class is almost building itself. I would really like to see options at more levels.
I am also not a fan of being forced to take the metamagics that are presented. What if a person isn't interested in having their kinetisist empower or maximize and wants to do something else? Would it be possible to have a list of metamagics to choose from, or possibly to make the metamagics a wild talent so you could choose a different wild talent instead of them?
I am having difficulty with the number of skill points. I think that a kintetist really wants to be a mobile class. But they don't have the skills to be mobile. For my Geo-Kinetisit I think that I should be able to put ranks in climb and acrobatics (Thinking Avatar) maybe some swim, and possibly some craft mining. As a human Kinetisit with 12 int (which is better than most I'm seeing at the table with me) I am still struggling with getting the skills to be mobile while still havinging some crucial staple skills like perception, or being able to utilize my knowledge. I see this getting even worse for the hydro-kintetisist, or the Aero-kinetisist who NEED ranks in a skill to be able to properly utilize their special movement they can get.
I think upping the skills from 2 to 4 perlevel will greatly improve the situation.
kestral287 wrote: Zwordsman wrote: so people who are more knowledgeable..
does it feel like maybe they're having a hard time balancing ranged vs melee aspects? Maybe due to iteratives.
Maybe blasting needs iteratives, or melee should remove iteratives. But both aspects get a boost in power?
Since so far with what I can get from the playtests is that blasts are hard to hit and don't do enough damage, while burn-bursting with Melee can result in a ton of damage (after all it's blast level damages with iteratives so kinda like sneak attack +the metamagicableness)
I think what we really need is a Fast Bombs-equivalent; a Wild Talent that lets the Kineticist take iterative attacks with his blasts. I have thoughts for one rolling around in my head, but I'm not sure if it should be a freebie akin to Air's Reach or a talent that has to be paid for. My current thought is to make it a Form Infusion with a Burn cost of 2. That turns the Kineticist into a highly effective damage platform... but only in limited circumstances, as it restricts them from other Forms (meaning no Extended/Extreme Range, no Snaking, no barrage of Explosions to cover a room in minion-slaying death).
Removing iteratives feels like a mistake; nobody likes feeling useless when they totally waste a turn, but having your single Cold Blast whiff against the dragon's SR does just that. But making iteratives hard to use, turning the Kineticist into something that requires careful tactics to make use of... that's more okay. I'm not sure how much actual gain you will receive from an iterative attack. Without the move action to gather elements, you loose the ability to maximize your attack for free.
Zwordsman wrote: Arachnofiend wrote: Foe Throw doesn't have the same weight restrictions as telekinesis. Humorously, by RAW you can throw the Tarrasque if it fails its fort save.
It should probably say that the creature must be your size category and then have it scale up by level (a level 20 Telekineticist SHOULD be able to throw the Tarrasque).
bad guy juggles!
I so wish there was a way to use more than one form.. throw a lots at lots HAHAHAAA!! Yeah. That's what I believe would happen if I could throw any creature regardless of weight. Throw tarrasque or throw Cthulhu. The ability also does not state if SR applies or not. Gonna need the developers to word it in such a way so that a civil war will no erupt during the game :D
Thanks for the funny reply Arahno XD
blackbloodtroll wrote: Someone is going to hate me for saying this, but I just don't want this to be the next Rogue. It won't be. Rogues get skill points and lots of class skills.
It is too early to judge the classes full range of utility. We all know a lot of abilities are being held in reserve until the book launches. Some of them may wind up hideously overpowered (or worthless).
What we can all agree on is, the class needs 4-6 skill points/level if it is not going to receive a significant damage boost.
alternis sol wrote: Zwordsman wrote: Fhalargn wrote: KINETIC BLADE
Element universal; Type form infusion; Level 1; Burn 1
Prerequisites kineticist level 1st
Associated Blasts any
Saving Throw none
You form a weapon using your kinesis. You create a non-reach
one-handed or light weapon in your hands formed of pure
energy or elemental matter, or for telekineticists, you transfer
the power of your kinetic blast to any object held in one hand.
Use this form infusion as part of an attack action or full-attack
action to make melee attacks with this weapon, which deals
your kinetic blast damage on each hit (applying any modifiers
to your kinetic blast’s damage, including your Constitution
modifier or half your Constitution modifier as normal, but not
your Strength modifier), and disappears at the end of your turn.
The weapon deals the same damage type that your kinetic blast
deals, and it interacts with AC and spell resistance as normal for
a blast of its type. Even if a telekineticist uses this power on a
magic weapon or other unusual object, the attack does not use
any of the magic weapon’s bonuses or effects and simply deals
the telekineticist’s blast damage.
Is kinetic blade spell-like ability? If it is, and it is a melee type move. Does it provoke AOO? Since all spell-like abilities does.
I'll be totally honest that I'm not rules lord but.
I'm pretty sure it's still a SLA as form changes just change the output but the SLA is still used..? so I think it provokes using it. but I'd guess it would only provoke once?
One reason it might be neat to make it Supernatural.
Or like I kinda hope (just from my standpoint of characters I like). They give option to drop iterative stuff and just make one massive blast/slash. I've jus talways been fond of that style and it's hard to do in pathfinder reliabilty (really only ever found one build that can) while I'm not positive on the rules either, but to make a full attack action I need to use everthing but my swift actions which... Mark hasn't responded as to whether or not its a free/swift action, but i've tried getting him to commit to one or the other for what it is.
It really sounds like a free/swift which would mean no concentration check to use (free/swift spells don't provoke AoO)
Earlier post I did :D
Hopefully Mark responds to this one :D
Artanthos wrote: blackbloodtroll wrote: Someone is going to hate me for saying this, but I just don't want this to be the next Rogue. It won't be. Rogues get skill points and lots of class skills.
It is too early to judge the classes full range of utility. We all know a lot of abilities are being held in reserve until the book launches. Some of them may wind up hideously overpowered or worthless.
What we can all agree on is, the class needs 4-6 skill points/level if it is not going to receive a significant damage boost. Change it to 4-6 skill points per level AND a significant damage boost, and I'm more or less with you. The math currently done on the class supports that it won't, even under favorable houseruled conditions, outdo or come terribly close to optimized damage dealers. Serious damage dealers get 2h Str bonuses, dual-wield damage bonus stacking and multiplication off double weapons, and ranged characters getting consistent full attacks and +2 attacks pet round to get better use of abilities.
If buffed in damage, it would do slightly more damage than the other utility classes, and retain less utility than they do. That seems to be an appropriate niche of it. It retains mobility, damage, and some utility. It wouldn't absolutely excel in any given area, but at the same time it doesn't end up suffering horribly in one either. It would give it a balance.
Artanthos wrote: kestral287 wrote: Zwordsman wrote: so people who are more knowledgeable..
does it feel like maybe they're having a hard time balancing ranged vs melee aspects? Maybe due to iteratives.
Maybe blasting needs iteratives, or melee should remove iteratives. But both aspects get a boost in power?
Since so far with what I can get from the playtests is that blasts are hard to hit and don't do enough damage, while burn-bursting with Melee can result in a ton of damage (after all it's blast level damages with iteratives so kinda like sneak attack +the metamagicableness)
I think what we really need is a Fast Bombs-equivalent; a Wild Talent that lets the Kineticist take iterative attacks with his blasts. I have thoughts for one rolling around in my head, but I'm not sure if it should be a freebie akin to Air's Reach or a talent that has to be paid for. My current thought is to make it a Form Infusion with a Burn cost of 2. That turns the Kineticist into a highly effective damage platform... but only in limited circumstances, as it restricts them from other Forms (meaning no Extended/Extreme Range, no Snaking, no barrage of Explosions to cover a room in minion-slaying death).
Removing iteratives feels like a mistake; nobody likes feeling useless when they totally waste a turn, but having your single Cold Blast whiff against the dragon's SR does just that. But making iteratives hard to use, turning the Kineticist into something that requires careful tactics to make use of... that's more okay. I'm not sure how much actual gain you will receive from an iterative attack. Without the move action to gather elements, you loose the ability to maximize your attack for free. You gain a few things:
-Multi-target options.
-Vital Strike compatibility
-Potentially higher damage (if all hit and even out to about average 16d6+2*Con is an average of 56 plus double mods, versus a flat 48 plus one mod).
-Better image (Mustang or Avatar-esque repeated fire throwing > Spirit Bomb)
blackbloodtroll wrote: Someone is going to hate me for saying this, but I just don't want this to be the next Rogue. As it stands, I would rather have any rogue at the table in PFS than have a Kineticist sit down. Kineticists do nothing but deal damage, and they don't even do it well.
The number of posts on this class speaks for itself: everyone really wants this to be cool and fun. People are looking forward to what this might be, but right now it is a pure damage class that brings no utility to the table.
What we're missing from the start, is a post from the developer explaining what his actual mission statement is, what his vision is. What does he want this class to do? We're getting bogged down on running numbers when there are bigger issues (and a lack of direction).
Rynjin wrote: You gain a few things:
-Multi-target options.
-Vital Strike compatibility
-Potentially higher damage (if all hit and even out to about average 16d6+2*Con is an average of 56 plus double mods, versus a flat 48 plus one mod).
-Better image (Mustang or Avatar-esque repeated fire throwing > Spirit Bomb)
Wouldn't Vital Strike be too much, though? Admittedly, it would only bring the blast damage to Fireball levels, but doing it for free, all the time, every time might be somewhat excessive...
Then again... Blasting is all the Kineticist does. So maybe it's okay.
Lemmy wrote: Wouldn't Vital Strike be too much, though? Admittedly, it would only bring the blast damage to Fireball levels, but doing it for free, all the time, every time might be somewhat excessive...
Then again... Blasting is all the Kineticist does. So maybe it's okay.
The real question is: how many fireballs do you need in a day?
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