For example, I think there wily be at least a few LN types who would (perhaps reluctantly) throw in with the rebels simply because of how much of a perversion of law and justice the Thrunite system is.
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Personally, I would also like to explore the possibility of being Chelaxian loyalists to its preThrune/devil-worshipper phase. Just because the empire is ruled by jerks and villains now doesn't mean it always has been or that it has to be.
This is what the Children of Westcrown are assumed to be in Council of Thieves.
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At least you caught it before you hit the 10-post limit.Are your parents dyslexic?Hey Abrogail.
Sonuva...
Apparently.
I actually double-checked before posting to ensure it was fixable. If 'Larazod' had only a few posts left, I didn't want them to be used up asking what I meant about dyslexia. If he did, I would have simply messaged him about it.
I'm curious if there's a way to play this anti-Thrune but pro-Asmodeus.
Like a character who's decided that House Thrune's doing a crappy job and that they can do better.
I'm curious if there's a way to play this anti-Thrune but pro-Asmodeus.
Like a character who's decided that House Thrune's doing a crappy job and that they can do better.
I imagine so. Probably easy to garner a heroic reputation by helping the party stop whatever Thrune's up to...only to be dragged away before he or she can enact Phase II: Now That I Have Your Attention, Let Me Demonstrate The Proper Use Of An Iron Maiden.
Until the end of the campaign when the PCs are too powerful to stop...
...And now I want to play this concept, except I'm DMing.
I'm curious if there's a way to play this anti-Thrune but pro-Asmodeus.
Like a character who's decided that House Thrune's doing a crappy job and that they can do better.
Aren't the various Houses of Cheliax already doing this anyway, as much as they think they can get away with?
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I love cheliex, it is a great evil nation.
Basically, give me tough choices. The rebels should not be all good, but house thune is an evil that must be destroyed.
Heh heh, as you wish:)
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Oooh, you witch! I'm gonna get back those priceless tomes you stole from our library! Richemar, she's here! Richemar!All I can say about the news of Hell's Rebels is...
** spoiler omitted **
I'll seeya all there, fighting the good fight against the Thrunies!
Bring it on, old man! The times, they are a'changin' and they're changin' faster than you can keep up.
Hush, you heretic! Your name smacks of sour wine, lies and burning flesh, and I don't like you! ;P
And know ye that we shall eventually decrypt those mystical messages at the end of your post!
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This. is. PERFECT!!
I already have the perfect character concept lined up! Wait... no, I was wrong. I have six. Choices, why do you plague me?
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That character isn't going to be a Castilrian he's going to be more about Minali, Shylen, and Cayned Cialain.
Do you have any idea how much it...
hurts
to read that line?!
120 year old Half Elf Paladin. He remembers when Cheliax was about the advancement of humanity and worship of Aroden, before his "death". Now he fights diabolism. Very rough concept, sound good so far?
Creative Director
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120 year old Half Elf Paladin. He remembers when Cheliax was about the advancement of humanity and worship of Aroden, before his "death". Now he fights diabolism. Very rough concept, sound good so far?
That might be tricky in a few ways, actually. I'd wait for your GM to see the whole AP before going forward. Characters like that are certainly something we'll need to address in the player guide too.
120 year old Half Elf Paladin. He remembers when Cheliax was about the advancement of humanity and worship of Aroden, before his "death". Now he fights diabolism. Very rough concept, sound good so far?
You know that starts the character at Old right? Dangerously close to venerable in fact.
120 year old Half Elf Paladin. He remembers when Cheliax was about the advancement of humanity and worship of Aroden, before his "death". Now he fights diabolism. Very rough concept, sound good so far?You know that starts the character at Old right? Dangerously close to venerable in fact.
That can work; I played an Old gnome (archivist bard) in Serpent's Skull to generally good results.
Playing old as a caster is a different beast than playing old as a paladin.
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I would LOVE to see a risen erinyes inquisitor of Iomedae in this Adventure Path! Also hoping we'll see a Devils Revisited manual (complete with a half-erinyes template). One thing I've always wondered though: do half-fiends HAVE to be EVIL in alignment? Or can be they be ANY alignment?
That can work; I played an Old gnome (archivist bard) in Serpent's Skull to generally good results.120 year old Half Elf Paladin. He remembers when Cheliax was about the advancement of humanity and worship of Aroden, before his "death". Now he fights diabolism. Very rough concept, sound good so far?You know that starts the character at Old right? Dangerously close to venerable in fact.
Isn't Ezren old age (or at the very least middle-aged)? Also, yeah, that can definitely work (especially for casters who don't need beefy physical ability scores). ^_^
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I'm guessing we're gonna get some cool new Devils in the bestiaries of this adventure path. Oh, I do hope we get a pleasure devil or pain / domination type devil? We need more female type devils am I right? ^_^
Paladin/Cleric/Champion of Irori+ Guided Hand= Who cares about Old?
I would LOVE to see a risen erinyes inquisitor of Iomedae in this Adventure Path! Also hoping we'll see a Devils Revisited manual (complete with a half-erinyes template). One thing I've always wondered though: do half-fiends HAVE to be EVIL in alignment? Or can be they be ANY alignment?
This would be cool, if Hell's Rebels actually included a rebellion within Hell itself in parallel with the rebellion in Cheliax. Although you'd have to be careful about this: Iomedae seems to have been cracking under the pressure caused by the Worldwound, and having been pressured into commission Low Templar, she might eventually be pressured into commissioning Really Filthy Templar. That risen Erinyes Inquisitor might be not so risen.
That aside, I have thought for a while that it would be cool to play a heretical fiend (not just Tiefling). The rules don't really support it, though, so I was toying with the idea of a Summoner Switch, although the particular example following was intended for Curse of the Crimson Throne (alternatively for Council of Thieves). Start with a Summoner that is doomed to die early in the Adventure Path while (or shortly after) aiding a certain legendary freedom fighter in preventing a certain travesty of justice, and be replaced by the newly Unfettered Eidolon, which is a heretical (from Hell's point of view) Devil which the Summoner had accidentally rescued from punitive reconstitution and reprogramming.
I'm guessing we're gonna get some cool new Devils in the bestiaries of this adventure path. Oh, I do hope we get a pleasure devil or pain / domination type devil? We need more female type devils am I right? ^_^
Hell is reported in Pathfinder Campaign Setting canon as being really misogynist -- getting female devils (apart from isolated individuals) of rank much higher than Erinyes might be as impossible as getting women ordained in several of Earth's major religions.
Hell is reported in Pathfinder Campaign Setting canon as being really misogynist -- getting female devils (apart from isolated individuals) of rank much higher than Erinyes might be as impossible as getting women ordained in several of Earth's major religions.
While misogyny is a basic rule for most male devils in hell, I can't imagine that most lawful evil women whose souls are hellbound end up as just Erinyes or Handmaiden devils. I think there's got to be more types as the Material Plane is pretty damn big and the stream of hellbound souls HAS TO BE a great deal. Even if Asmodeus hates the female gender he'd be a fool not to use their souls as new types of female specific devils to fulfill his goals. Of course there's also the whore queens as well (Ardat Lil might be responsible for the creation of the pleasure devils and Doloris might be responsible for creating domination / pain devils). I'm just saying there's options here and while women might not have much a place in hell they do have a place (granted it's not very high up in the ladder but it's still there).
While misogyny is a basic rule for most male devils in hell, I can't imagine that most lawful evil women whose souls are hellbound end up as just Erinyes or Handmaiden devils. I think there's got to be more types as the Material Plane is pretty damn big and the stream of hellbound souls HAS TO BE a great deal. Even if Asmodeus hates the female gender he'd be a fool not to use their souls as new types of female specific devils to fulfill his goals. Of course there's also the whore queens as well (Ardat Lil might be responsible for the creation of the pleasure devils and Doloris might be responsible for creating domination / pain devils). I'm just saying there's options here and while women might not have much a place in hell they do have a place (granted it's not very high up in the ladder but it's still there).
(Bolding mine) Which shows that female devils beyond the low ranks have to have as their primary purpose keeping the rest of the female devils in low ranks AND keep them from escaping (much like higher-ranked slaves in the American South being used to keep the others of their own race in the low ranks AND keep them from escaping). Fool or not, Asmodeus has to please his base to keep the evil empire of Hell (which Cheliax emulates) functioning. It would be a embarrassment for Hell (and potential existential threat to the heirarchy) if some Erinyes or other similar-ranked devil managed to escape the system without being killed, and got busy working to overthrow the evil empire. I wonder if as part of the Contract of Creation that at least nominally all the deities had to sign(*), Hell also required the other planes to pass Fugitive Devil/Fugitive Soul Laws . . . .
(*) Although knowing the other planes, it is very likely that some deities other than Rovagug didn't sign this, particularly among the more Chaotic ones, for Good or Evil or in between.
It would be a HUGE embarrassment for Hell (and potential existential threat to the heirarchy) if some Erinyes or other similar-ranked devil managed to escape the system without being killed, and got busy working to overthrow the evil empire.
Um, I wasn't referring to female type devils as being against the goals of Asmodeus and those that serve him. I was talking about female devils who do in fact work for hell (and serve specific purposes). I'm simply saying there aren't enough varieties of female-type devils to equal to sheer influx of souls going into the Plane of Hell as petitioners.
Where you refering to my statement about the Risen Erinyes Inquisitor of Iomedae as a possibility for this upcoming adventure path? If so, please note that I did not say that SEVERAL or MANY female risen devils would be cool. I do believe "risen fiends" are extraordinarily rare and if it happens it's usually an individual of already significant power.
While it might be embarrassing for a single Erinyes to rise to goodness and throw off the shackles of hell to serve a goddess of valor and goodness, I doubt it would do much more than annoy the Archdevil she serves and Asmodeus enough than to just send the occasional assassin and such to deal with her. This is Asmodeus (the Overlord of Hell) and the Archdevils who serve him. They've got bigger issues to deal with than a single risen devil (even a single FEMALE risen devil only receives so much effort to quash). They control entire conqurered worlds in the Material Plane and their armies vie for control of the upper (and lower) planes of the multiverse. I'd venture to say the "Risen Erinyes" in question would only be facing some occasional high CR assassins in an effort to wipe out a "minor stain" on an Archdevil's (or Infernal Duke's) record.
{. . .}
Um, I wasn't referring to female type devils as being against the goals of Asmodeus and those that serve him. I was talking about female devils who do in fact work for hell (and serve specific purposes). I'm simply saying there aren't enough varieties of female-type devils to equal to sheer influx of souls going into the Plane of Hell as petitioners.
That's what I was talking about too, but adding that Hell, being misogynist, would try to force them all into the same few types of lower ranks, just as happens in regressive societies on Earth (much of which has eerie similarities to Hell).
Where you refering to my statement about the Risen Erinyes Inquisitor of Iomedae as a possibility for this upcoming adventure path? If so, please note that I did not say that SEVERAL or MANY female risen devils would be cool. I do believe "risen fiends" are extraordinarily rare and if it happens it's usually an individual of already significant power.
Starts as one, and then proceeds to more. A rebellion in Hell. Yes, risen Fiends are rare. But how much is it due to difficulty in quitting being Evil and how much of it is due to difficulty in surviving for a significant time after quitting being Evil?
While it might be embarrassing for a single Erinyes to rise to goodness and throw off the shackles of hell to serve a goddess of valor and goodness, I doubt it would do much more than annoy the Archdevil she serves and Asmodeus enough than to just send the occasional assassin and such to deal with her. This is Asmodeus (the Overlord of Hell) and the Archdevils who serve him. They've got bigger issues to deal with than a single risen devil (even a single FEMALE risen devil only receives so much effort to quash). They control entire conqurered worlds in the Material Plane and their armies vie for control of the upper (and lower) planes of the multiverse. I'd venture to say the "Risen Erinyes" in question would only be facing some occasional high CR assassins in an effort to wipe out a "minor stain" on an Archdevil's (or Infernal Duke's) record.
This depends upon what the escapee does. An escapee that succeeds in getting recruits would be viewed as very dangerous indeed, much like a member of the Underground Railroad (Cheliax/Rahadoum equivalent: the Bellflower Network). Upper level Devils are Evil, but not stupid -- they would recognize the dangerous potential of exponential growth.
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Based on a quick glace at the Bestiary, the only devil that has a gendered pronoun is the Erinyes, which suggests that Imps, Hamutalua, Cornugon, etc., even *Pit Fiends* aren't necessarily limited to 'male-only.' A prominent LE female soul is not limited to only becoming one of the specifically girl-devils (and, indeed, the Erinyes are suggested to be something other than fallen souls elevated to devils, but some sort of fallen angelic host).
Just as there is a female Quasit in Rise of the Runelords, despite Quasits, like Imps, generally being depicted as sexless males, there's nothing saying that a Bearded, Bone or Ice Devil isn't female.
All devils are subordinate to Asmodeus. They are all his 'lessers,' and so it wouldn't go against any presumption of misogyny for him to allow appropriately cruel and pitiless female souls to rise through the ranks and command lesser devils that used to be male souls, just as he allows Abrogail Thrune and Queen Illeosa in Korvosa to command many male subjects, in his name, despite their gender.
Taken from that perspective, in which a male picture, but no reference to gender is not a guarantee that every member of a species is male (just as there are female fire and frost giants, despite there being no pictures of them in the Bestiary, either), there ends up being more options for female souls than male souls, since there are explicitly female-only devils, but no explicitly male-only devils.
Based on a quick glace at the Bestiary, the only devil that has a gendered pronoun is the Erinyes, which suggests that Imps, Hamutalua, Cornugon, etc., even *Pit Fiends* aren't necessarily limited to 'male-only.' A prominent LE female soul is not limited to only becoming one of the specifically girl-devils (and, indeed, the Erinyes are suggested to be something other than fallen souls elevated to devils, but some sort of fallen angelic host).
Good point, although Pathfinder Campaign Setting lore originally from Princes of Darkness does establish that Hell has "a strict hierarchy that had no room for women, and where they were forced to live as, at best, second-class citizens".
(From Pathfinder Wiki Erinyes entry, Habitat & Ecology)
{. . .}
Erinyes have a unique origin amongst the devils. While most other devils are created from mortal souls, most erinyes are sculpted from the essences of fallen celestials that have been turned away from the path of good. A few are created from lesser devils, but only if that devil had a spark of piousness in its past existence.[3] Sometimes, an erinyes will be created from the soul of a fallen priest or other such soul which once harboured a trace of the divine. To create an erinyes, the essence is impaled atop one of the razor spikes of Dis's rooftops then left for a hundred and fifty years to be scoured by the harsh winds and tormented by the city's avian devils. {. . .}
So it looks like Erinyes come from a mixture of sources. Knowing how Pit Fiends can moosh together multiple Lemures to make 1 or more Devils, you can't even count on 1 Erinyes coming from just 1 source. This is likely to be planned so as to make sure that every Devil contains a sufficient pieces of ordered Evil to prevent rebellion by less Evil and/or Lawful parts.
Now, this does not mean that all Evil entities are misogynist (although it certainly helps). But all misogynists are Evil.
I'll note that all of the Damned, male and female, are ground down into genderless and mindless Lemures before getting raised back up in a form of devil.
So under normal circumstances, a mortal's original gender identity doesn't survive.
From there, whatever gender identity the devil may have is probably assigned by who elevates it, with exceptions for relatively few devils that have fixed gender identities (with its own ramifications - all erinyes are female, even if the original entity wasn't).
I know I've seen a female pit fiend being referenced in a book somewhere. But I do not remember where.
Heh. I suppose Hell's misogyny is well displayed by the fact that while devils can formed of any gender, an overwhelming majority are made male. Making them something other probably doesn't even occur to the typical devil handling transformations/promotions.
It's casual, "that's just how it is and always will be" misogyny, as opposed to Kostchtchie's hyper-aggressive "kill all female spellcasters!" misogyny.
True enough. Be interesting to reveal to a Devil(*) what their true mortal history was.
(*) Or other Outsider formed from mooshing together souls (even though most of the other types aren't as organized about this process).
^Brings up an interesting point -- the rulers of both Cheliax and Nidal would each NOT like to see a rebellion succeed in the other's nation, because this would change an ally on their border to an enemy (or at least a nation with very strong potential for being an enemy). So each would likely help the other put down the rebellion, although not necessarily overtly -- for instance, Cheliax providing Diabolist and Hellknight secret agents to help track down rebels in Nidal, or Nidal serving as a resource for extraordinary rendition of rebels from Cheliax, followed by fleshwarping and reprogramming to make them into double agents. In those nations, death is not necessarily the worst fate for rebels . . . .
People get tired of a place where it is acceptable to kick halflings?
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Mark me down as another player who'd be much more interested in an AP defending Thrune's Cheliax rather than dismantling it. It's one of the best written settings in the Inner Sea - why get rid of it?
I don't think the PCs collapse Cheliax if they win this AP, I think they just free a single city from it's rule.
Presumably if you managed to free a city, either you would have to free some surrounding terrain, or it would have to be already next to friendly terrain; otherwise it wouldn't be able to stay free for long, unless you had it chock-full of spellcasters casting Create Food and Water (which I wonder if this would have some kind of Blighting/Defiling effect as it drains organic matter from surrounding areas).
I'm beginning to wonder if maybe we're looking at a Shattered Star situation, somewhere down the line there'll be an AP that's a sequel to this and Council of Thieves (and maybe to a third) where you actually get to bring a now-destabilized House of Thrune down.
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Presumably if you managed to free a city, either you would have to free some surrounding terrain, or it would have to be already next to friendly terrain; otherwise it wouldn't be able to stay free for long, unless you had it chock-full of spellcasters casting Create Food and Water (which I wonder if this would have some kind of Blighting/Defiling effect as it drains organic matter from surrounding areas).
Well, you probably do free SOME land outside the city. Also, doesn't that city have a port to the ocean? that would allow trade with other countries that Cheliax will have a hard time preventing.
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Know Direction AP podcast is now up, with some more information.
Among other things:
The adventure takes place against a backdrop of all kinds of other uprisings and chaos going on in Cheliax, and the PCs will be essentially taking over Kintargo (about the same focus as was on Korovosa in CotCT).
1) Hell's Bright Shadow New ruler of Kintargo (a bad, bad, bad man), PCs join the Silver Ravens who are the rebels. Ties to some kind of familiar magic item.
2) Turn of the Torrent PCs are building up their resistance forces, the Order of the Torrent is reacting to it.
3) Dance of the Damned Resistance is spreading the word and fighting against Cheliax and House Thrune. Must invade a masked ball.
4) Song of Silver PCs openly declare war and make Kintargo their own.
5) Kintargo Contract PCs get hold of the contract Abrogail forged with Asmodeus and find loopholes (already described).
6) Breaking the Bones of Hell Can either make Kintargo a free city or things will be bad for everyone (depending how PCs do it). Will go into Hell at some point.Vol 100: 120 pages long (32 extra pages). Adventure takes place in a converted temple of Aroden (largely). More on the AP retrospective (one of the Vancaskerkins will be one of the NPCs. And each part will be written by one of the authors of the APs it represents). Big map in it.
Awesome!
Any ideas whether Kingmaker elements will come into play?Definitely re-subscribing for this one.
Ruyan.
While i'm happy to see 2015 doesnt have robot-based ap's, im more looking forward to the giant ap. This one is again about outsiders and the bestuaries are probably loaded the same way as the demon ap which also didnt strike me like I hoped it would... Rather saw a kyton or daemon plot or a neutral one so the bestiary is loaded with any theme.
Question for Richard Pett: do you remember the old (like, 1981) module _The Duke's Dress Ball_? It was for Thieves Guild, a 3PP first edition knockoff that only lasted a year or two. Their stuff was pretty high quality, though, and TDDB? was just astonishing.
The setup: you're thieves, you acquire invitations to the Duke's fancy dress ball celebrating his son's (highly political) engagement. Your options include picking pockets and filching jewelry; looting rooms; running a con; acquiring blackmail-worthy secrets; and picking up some (potentially explosive) political information. The ball is of course a seething mass of intrigue, with the occasional comic relief character stumbling distractingly across your path. There is of course One Suspicious Guy who is pretty sure you're not who you claim to be. There is of course a rival gang whose efforts will complicate yours.
It was almost entirely a long, non-combat role-playing encounter, of a sort that would seem rather indy even today. (If you start a fight, the ball is crawling with high-level characters who can smack you down hard, and that's before security shows up.) It was possible to get in a drunken duel out back, or to have a silent wrestle in the rafters with a foreign spy, or a quick cosh to the One Suspicious Guy's head around a corner, but 95% of it was what we'd call skill checks today, plus lots and lots of role-playing.
Today _The Duke's Dress Ball_ is a bit of an obscure classic -- there weren't that many ever printed, and it used a not-quite-1st Edition system that never really caught on. But if you're familiar with it, this gamer would be very happy to hear that it might cast some influence on the dress ball that is to come, or at least get an Easter egg or two. (And if you're not, the last time I looked it could still be acquired for $15 or so. Totally worth it.)
Doug M.
I don't Doug, but it sounds splendid.
The scenario I remember for its great roleplay - not counting a host of cthulhu adventures - was a flashing blades adventure by fantasy games unlimited which was amazingly heavy on rp, really cutting edge stuff it seemed at the time. I can't recall the title even but it would have been about that time. The old British White Dwarf and Gamemastery titles had some awesome roleplay scenarios, a great traveller adventure called smile being one of the ones that really stands out.
I'll keep an eye out for that one though, thanks for the heads up. I hope you'll like the ball, it was great fun to be unleashed on something on those lines and I had a lot of fun writing it. No eggs but plenty of temptation however:)
Rich
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The AP should take about as long as any other AP. There are elements in there that are designed to stretch things out as the PCs build up the rebellion over weeks or even months rather than days... but the pacing is pretty fluid. There should be no reason why a player who wants to play a kid should worry too much about growing ALL the way up during the AP, in any event.
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Does anyone have an idea on how long this AP is going to take? I mean in game. I get that open rebellion has to be very fast like in the Jade Regent AP. But we don't start as part of the rebel group and there should be a descent part that we are underground. I guess the "Turn of the Torrent" requires the party to be fairly public but I could still see the group being able to keep low key if this is mainly a recruitment action not a "wipe out the evil police" thing. Plus the party has the ball in I think the "Dance of the Damned" which means before this they have to be under the radar for the two books at least for the nobles. The main reason I want to know is because a faction of our table wants to play the AP as characters from Les Mis and one of them wants to be the kid so she want to know if she can stay a kid.
Just remember...in the end, the pup didn't grow up.