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Agree with Thorknor. I appreciate the update. I wish I had my PDFs. The physical pieces, I could honestly wait until the September shipments.
I do wish we'd gotten accurate word sooner, but I've been in your shoes before, waiting on product promised from a vendor so I could turn it around to a customer.
Subscribers *are* top priority.You have to see it from our end... it just doesn't feel that way. Here are three things you can easily do to remedy that feeling.
1. Eat the shipping cost for subscribers this month and next.
2. Get your products to subscribers before the street date.
3. One free class deck of our choice.I just want to chime in that I doubt all subscribers feel this, as I certainly don't. I've been annoyed that mine was held up but that was when I thought the only hold up was the Character Decks which I hadn't ordered. Now that I know that there were hold ups with my actual order I'm more forgiving.
I've been on the receiving end of the "Everything's fine!' lie before; it's never a good place to be. Personally I appreciate that you let us know what you have; some companies would just mark everything 'delayed' and call it a day.
I agree that most subscribers don't feel the same way as this poster. However, I do feel that some show of good faith (likely regarding shipping), would go a long way towards restoring trust. (I also agree that Point 2 is just silly, since as has already been mentioned, that was never a promise, nor should it be)
Chief Technical Officer
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Subscribers *are* top priority. As I said, the printer is shipping to distributors, to Gen Con, and to our warehouse, and we genuinely thought that we'd have product in our warehouse *and* at Gen Con. I believed that right up until I found out that nothing arrived in our Seattle warehouse during Gen Con.To me I sense a disconnect in what you're saying, unfortunately. I've been a subscriber to PACG for about a year now, and this isn't the first problem there has been. Virtually every release since I signed up, I've gotten my shipment both after the local gaming stores had it in stock AND after one of my friends received his from an online retailer. It's become a running joke in our gaming group. I've been a supporter of this game from the beginning, as well as a play-tester for S&S. I've paid something like 20% than online retailers prices and have had to wait longer to get my product. The ONLY thing subscription has going for it is the promo cards, which frankly usually aren't even that great. This just isn't the way things should be working.
The card game line as a whole has suffered more than it's share of subscription issues. But was this true for you for decks 5 and 6 of RotR?
Decks 5 and 6 both got to me on time, but both had printing issues. As if some of the cards were printed with an extra pass of black, some smudging on the words.
Paizo would have replaced the cards, but I had 1st printing and didn't want to replace them with 2nd printing cards so I just kept them.
With keeping all of the printing in the states we were told that it will make the color matching easier, just sad that this also seems to have caused a major hiccup in your distribution.
Anyways, I understand that 'stuff' happens, and things that are out of your control can't be helped. Just sort of weird, if reading between the lines, that it seems like you are saying that you were told that a shipment was headed to your warehouse, and never arrived.
So either it was never shipped? Which means the printing company lied? Or, you have a rogue truck, or 20 trucks, out there in the wilderness with truck drivers having the time of their lives playing skull and shackles together with only character add on decks and class decks lol
sorry, had the though, had to say it.
Either way, just looking forward to the updates about the situation, all I ask is to be kept in the loop as a subscriber.
I also ordered a GM screen, had I known that this was an issue weeks ago? i wouldnt have had it tied to my subscription shipment. Could have had it for the last 2 game sessions had I not waited. But at this point? As long as it comes with the base set, ah well.
Thank you, Vic, for posting this explanation. I can definitely understand that you are most likely more unhappy about the situation than any of us.
What's so annoying about the situation is that it's not just that the new card game set is held up—I could easily live with that—but that this hold-up also keeps my remaining role-playing game subscriptions from shipping.
As I work in software development, I can certainly understand, however, that it's probably not easy to says, "well then let's just ship the rest", when your software doesn't support a move like that. It's annoying but understandable.
I've bought an Advance Class Guide now at my FLGS, and I guess I will have to find someone in one of my groups to pass on my subscription copy once it arrives, but that's probably not a problem. The rest will just have to wait...
Anyway, I hope Paizo's future is not going to significantly impacted by this issue, though.
The card game line as a whole has suffered more than it's share of subscription issues. But was this true for you for decks 5 and 6 of RotR?Subscribers *are* top priority. As I said, the printer is shipping to distributors, to Gen Con, and to our warehouse, and we genuinely thought that we'd have product in our warehouse *and* at Gen Con. I believed that right up until I found out that nothing arrived in our Seattle warehouse during Gen Con.To me I sense a disconnect in what you're saying, unfortunately. I've been a subscriber to PACG for about a year now, and this isn't the first problem there has been. Virtually every release since I signed up, I've gotten my shipment both after the local gaming stores had it in stock AND after one of my friends received his from an online retailer. It's become a running joke in our gaming group. I've been a supporter of this game from the beginning, as well as a play-tester for S&S. I've paid something like 20% than online retailers prices and have had to wait longer to get my product. The ONLY thing subscription has going for it is the promo cards, which frankly usually aren't even that great. This just isn't the way things should be working.
I have literally never gotten a subscription item before both my FLGS and the afore-mentioned friend who bought from an online retailer, and yes, that includes chapters 5 and 6. The same is true of another person in my regular gaming group who is still a subscriber, but has decided to cancel his sub. I know Michigan is far from Paizo headquarters and all, but it's not as if we're off in the boonies or something.
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I have literally never gotten a subscription item before both my FLGS and the afore-mentioned friend who bought from an online retailer, and yes, that includes chapters 5 and 6. The same is true of another person in my regular gaming group who is still a subscriber, but has decided to cancel his sub. I know Michigan is far from Paizo headquarters and all, but it's not as if we're off in the boonies or something.The card game line as a whole has suffered more than it's share of subscription issues. But was this true for you for decks 5 and 6 of RotR?Subscribers *are* top priority. As I said, the printer is shipping to distributors, to Gen Con, and to our warehouse, and we genuinely thought that we'd have product in our warehouse *and* at Gen Con. I believed that right up until I found out that nothing arrived in our Seattle warehouse during Gen Con.To me I sense a disconnect in what you're saying, unfortunately. I've been a subscriber to PACG for about a year now, and this isn't the first problem there has been. Virtually every release since I signed up, I've gotten my shipment both after the local gaming stores had it in stock AND after one of my friends received his from an online retailer. It's become a running joke in our gaming group. I've been a supporter of this game from the beginning, as well as a play-tester for S&S. I've paid something like 20% than online retailers prices and have had to wait longer to get my product. The ONLY thing subscription has going for it is the promo cards, which frankly usually aren't even that great. This just isn't the way things should be working.
Odd. I'm in the Grand Rapids area and I would say that I usually (more than half the time) get my subscriptions by the street date.
Odd. I'm in the Grand Rapids area and I would say that I usually (more than half the time) get my subscriptions by the street date.I have literally never gotten a subscription item before both my FLGS and the afore-mentioned friend who bought from an online retailer, and yes, that includes chapters 5 and 6. The same is true of another person in my regular gaming group who is still a subscriber, but has decided to cancel his sub. I know Michigan is far from Paizo headquarters and all, but it's not as if we're off in the boonies or something.The card game line as a whole has suffered more than it's share of subscription issues. But was this true for you for decks 5 and 6 of RotR?Subscribers *are* top priority. As I said, the printer is shipping to distributors, to Gen Con, and to our warehouse, and we genuinely thought that we'd have product in our warehouse *and* at Gen Con. I believed that right up until I found out that nothing arrived in our Seattle warehouse during Gen Con.To me I sense a disconnect in what you're saying, unfortunately. I've been a subscriber to PACG for about a year now, and this isn't the first problem there has been. Virtually every release since I signed up, I've gotten my shipment both after the local gaming stores had it in stock AND after one of my friends received his from an online retailer. It's become a running joke in our gaming group. I've been a supporter of this game from the beginning, as well as a play-tester for S&S. I've paid something like 20% than online retailers prices and have had to wait longer to get my product. The ONLY thing subscription has going for it is the promo cards, which frankly usually aren't even that great. This just isn't the way things should be working.
Having lived in Kalamazoo for a great while, I found shipping to places in west Michigan was almost unbelievably fast compared to everywhere else I've lived, so I'm actually not surprised to hear of your good fortune with shipments, if "more than half" is meant to convey good fortune anyway.
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Weird, they don't need to explicitly state that you won't always get it before retailers. The fact that they never said we would in the first place is enough. It isn't Paizo's job to make sure people don't have unreasonable expectations.
Early delivery may be a reason for many of us, but we by no means have any reasonable expectation of receiving it before retailers. It usually does, and that's awesome, but that's just something awesome, not something they ever told us we'd get.
Paying more means nothing, other than whether you get it before another subscriber because you paid more for faster shipping.
As for promos not being a good incentive, that's your opinion, and one many of us disagree with. The only reason I canceled my subscription was because I'm getting the promos that get shipped to my local shop (I've since subscribed again to give the decks and extra promos away at OP for deserving players).
I get that people want their stuff before retailers, I do too. What I don't get is why people are upset about it -- Paizo never said we would, we have no expectation for it, no matter how hard some people try to say we do.
It sucks too that GenCon got copies and the rest of us didn't, but Paizo didn't even know that there weren't any being shipped to their warehouse, they had full expectation there were -- and that was a reasonable expectation, based on their discussions with manufacturers.
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Weird, they don't need to explicitly state that you won't always get it before retailers. The fact that they never said we would in the first place is enough. It isn't Paizo's job to make sure people don't have unreasonable expectations.
Things to keep in mind:
Companies Do What They Say.
Companies Don’t Do What They Don’t Say.
:)
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Things to keep in mind:
Companies Do What They Say.
Companies Don’t Do What They Don’t Say.:)
I snorted my tea when I read this.
There's a lot of negativity here, but I just want to say that I love the product, and even though I'm disappointed that I have to wait, things happen and when I called for an update the customer service was excellent as always. I would rather wait for a product to make sure y'all do what you need to do than throw a fit about a situation you obviously gain nothing from but stress. If you were WizardsBro I'd probably feel differently ^_^
So subscriptions:
1. Cost more than retail price
2. Usually arrive later than retail street date (less often in the U.S, but literally always later in Canada where I am)
3. Give you promos that the FLGS's also get.
Got it.
I deal with similar issues all the time and I agree that it's time for Paizo to move on. Of course that means taking ownership of the issue, and making the appropriate apologies to those affected.
May I also suggest that Vic and team have a long hard look at what works and what doesn't and actually address those things, either procedurally or by moving away from an inventory/sales software suite that doesn't seem to be meeting your needs. (the latter is something I have gleaned from various comments made by staff)
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So subscriptions:
1. Cost more than retail price
2. Usually arrive later than retail street date (less often in the U.S, but literally always later in Canada where I am)
3. Give you promos that the FLGS's also get.Got it.
1) You get a 20% discounted price that you don't get at full retail. Not talking Amazon or other online stores.
2) Depends on the shipping method you choose and whether you choose to combine with other subscriptions (which I do for my comic subscription). Otherwise it should arrive about the same time. It just isn't a guarantee.3) None of the local game stores in my area get the promos when they get the product. My friend bought a couple decks through Amazon ... no promos. It really depends on if the distributor gets the promos to pass on to the retailer.
Get it?
So subscriptions:
1. Cost more than retail price
2. Usually arrive later than retail street date (less often in the U.S, but literally always later in Canada where I am)
3. Give you promos that the FLGS's also get.Got it.
1) You get a 20% discounted price that you don't get at full retail. Not talking Amazon or other online stores.
2) Depends on the shipping method you choose and whether you choose to combine with other subscriptions (which I do for my comic subscription). Otherwise it should arrive about the same time. It just isn't a guarantee.
3) None of the local game stores in my area get the promos when they get the product. My friend bought a couple decks through Amazon ... no promos. It really depends on if the distributor gets the promos to pass on to the retailer.Get it?
1) I'm not saving 20% by the time shipping cost is factored in. More like 1% (and that is with the cheapest shipping option. Without it, it would be more than paying at my FLGS).
2) Since the street date was almost 2 weeks ago, and my order still hasn't been shipped yet, I'm not holding out hope that I'll have my stuff before my FLGS. Having said that, I haven't looked at my FLGS, since I've already ordered. I'm not planning on doing ANYTHING to this subscription this month or next given the problems that have already happened. I would hate to have even more problems occur.
3) My FLGS does give out at least 1 promo with each adventure pack if not more. I keep the subscription to gaurantee I get ALL promos. That's it.
I do think free shipping on either the base set or the character add-on or credit would be nice. So far, I have received no official e-mail that was rumored to be sent yesterday and nothing has been offered to the customers. I'm finding out everything through the message boards, which I find a little odd in the first place.
I get that the printing company screwed up. I get that it's their fault. A promise was made to Paizo that was not fulfilled so Paizo and its customers who have not had items shipped yet by the gaurantee should get some restitution for that.
So subscriptions:
1. Cost more than retail price
2. Usually arrive later than retail street date (less often in the U.S, but literally always later in Canada where I am)
3. Give you promos that the FLGS's also get.Got it.
Not all those things are true at the same time, at least not for everyone. They might be true for you but consider...
1. Cost more than retail price. That depends on where you buy it. I know the closest retail store to me charges MSRP ($59.99 for the Base Set, $19.99 for a deck box). So the Base Set + Character Add-on would have been 79.98. The sub costs me $47.99 for the Base Set, $15.99 for a deck box. With shipping, that is $63.98 So it saves me money. Now, granted I could get it for less from Amazon. I've got a Prime Membership, so I'll even exclude shipping. Say I could get the Base Set for $45 and a deck for $15 (which would be good prices according to camelcamelcamel). That is $60. So Amazon saved me $3.98.
2. Usually arrive later than retail street date. Usually is a strong word. You mentioned your in Canada, so that is a factor, but other than the two times Amazon shipped orders BEFORE retail street date, I think Paizo has typically been delivering before retail street date to most customers. Granted, most of their customers are probably in the US. But even now, you'd probably have a hard time finding it in a local store, especially the character add-on deck which no one seems to have. Street date has come and gone, but Amazon still has it as pre-order, even the Base Set.
3. Your FLGS might be able to guarantee YOU that they'll give you every promo, but they couldn't do that for everyone. They don't get one promo per each product. They get SOME promos from their distributor. So, while they might promise you personally they will give you one of each, they can't do that for everyone because they just won't have enough promos. And potentially they'll have a month where they get no promos at all. Unless of course your FLGS has an agreement with their distributor. But the distributor can't make that agreement with every store, because they just don't get enough promos. And Amazon definitely doesn't have promos to give out.
Perhaps you have a local store that is selling it to you less than MSRP or the shipping to Canada negates the discount. And perhaps shipping to Canada delays the order enough the the local store has copies first. And perhaps your store is willing to do you in particular a favor and hold one of each promo for you. But that isn't true for me. And I suspect it wouldn't be true of many others.
I was buying Rise of the Runelords from Amazon up until deck 5, when I switched to Paizo. And I did so despite being the beneficiary of Amazon shipping 2 of the decks to me BEFORE the street date. I'm happy I switched. Anyway, I just wanted to share my perspective on the value of the subscription.
So subscriptions:
1. Cost more than retail price
2. Usually arrive later than retail street date (less often in the U.S, but literally always later in Canada where I am)
3. Give you promos that the FLGS's also get.Got it.
1) You get a 20% discounted price that you don't get at full retail. Not talking Amazon or other online stores.
2) Depends on the shipping method you choose and whether you choose to combine with other subscriptions (which I do for my comic subscription). Otherwise it should arrive about the same time. It just isn't a guarantee.
3) None of the local game stores in my area get the promos when they get the product. My friend bought a couple decks through Amazon ... no promos. It really depends on if the distributor gets the promos to pass on to the retailer.Get it?
I realize I came across as a wise ass in my previous post and I absolutely love this product. But everything you just posted has not been my experience.
1) I got Skinsaw Murders through subscription for $15.99 plus $5.53 shipping for a total of $21.30. My FLGS has Skinsaw Murders for $15.95. Thats the same base price.
2)In my experience it has NEVER arrived in Canada before retailers, and I doubt it ever will. It's just the nature of shipping internationally. Right now I am waiting on the S&S base deck but I really doubt it will arrive before Aug 27 (tomorrow) which is the date a store just gave me.I havent even received any type of shipping notification. Again there is no promise that subscriptions should get to you before street date but you have to look at everything when deciding if this service is for you.
3) Both my local gaming stores get promos, and they are plentiful and easy to get.
Again, I am not trying to start a war and I kind of regret the tone used in my previous post. I would love to support paizo directly via subscription but if I do that I am literally hurting myself in my wallet and in waiting time vs a random guy or girl who bought it off the street.
I think the subscription service is probably ideal for Americans living outside of major cities perhaps? Its definitely not worth it for Canadians, but I could be wrong, would love to hear from some fellow Canucks on this.
So subscriptions:
1. Cost more than retail price
2. Usually arrive later than retail street date (less often in the U.S, but literally always later in Canada where I am)
3. Give you promos that the FLGS's also get.Got it.
Not all those things are true at the same time, at least not for everyone. They might be true for you but consider...
1. Cost more than retail price. That depends on where you buy it. I know the closest retail store to me charges MSRP ($59.99 for the Base Set, $19.99 for a deck box). So the Base Set + Character Add-on would have been 79.98. The sub costs me $47.99 for the Base Set, $15.99 for a deck box. With shipping, that is $63.98 So it saves me money. Now, granted I could get it for less from Amazon. I've got a Prime Membership, so I'll even exclude shipping. Say I could get the Base Set for $45 and a deck for $15 (which would be good prices according to camelcamelcamel). That is $60. So Amazon saved me $3.98.
2. Usually arrive later than retail street date. Usually is a strong word. You mentioned your in Canada, so that is a factor, but other than the two times Amazon shipped orders BEFORE retail street date, I think Paizo has typically been delivering before retail street date to most customers. Granted, most of their customers are probably in the US. But even now, you'd probably have a hard time finding it in a local store, especially the character add-on deck which no one seems to have. Street date has come and gone, but Amazon still has it as pre-order, even the Base Set.
3. Your FLGS might be able to guarantee YOU that they'll give you every promo, but they couldn't do that for everyone. They don't get one promo per each product. They get SOME promos from their distributor. So, while they might promise you personally they will give you one of each, they can't do that for everyone because they just won't have enough promos. And potentially they'll have a month where they get no promos at all. Unless of course your FLGS has an...
Thanks again Hawkmoon, appreciate your insight on this. I know you are a big fan of the subscription but just wanted to give an opposing perspective from someone who just hasn't seen the value in it to date.
Stuff that started making quoting the post too long, so I'm shorting it to this.
Yeah. I think being international is a big factor for you. Typically, a retailer is going to get their stock before street date and sit on it until street date. That means it gets ships, crosses that border and arrives in time to sit in the back for a few days. Given that they probably give the product to distributors even before they start shipping to subscribers (logistics after all), the subscription shipment is never going to catch up internationally. That is a different story in the US where there is (usually) plenty of time to get the subscription before street date.
But we all agree we like the game. And that is the important thing.
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My local stores sell for full retail price. I do get a discount at my local comic store since I do buy a lot of comics each month but normally, it is full retail to everyone else. And in Hawkmoon's post above, that is the reasoning why I get the subscription through Paizo.
And as I had said, my local stores do not get promos. I wanted them from the start so again, the subscription.
And you being in Canada does factor into the shipping from Paizo. Since I'm simply on the east coast (of the US), I don't see the delays that international customers do.
And yes, my response was because of the tone of your post. I know a lot of people are frustrated. I know that Paizo is trying to make everyone happy. I know they won't be able to. But at least Vic let us know the situation and what they're trying to do. They don't have all the answers. They don't have all the product they need. But they're working through it.
And we do love the game which is why we are all frustrated for different reasons. So let's go storm Carta Mundi!!!
Im actually not even frustrated or upset with Paizo over the add-on deck thing. There's not much you can do about printer issues once they happen, you can only work with them to ensure they don't happen again.
They're doing the best they can in a crappy situation, and a sense of perspective is important here, this is the end of august already and in a matter of a few weeks everyone should be playing the game. I'm just puzzled about why this subscription service consistently feels like such a bad bargain to me, but different strokes for different folks.
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The ONLY thing subscription has going for it is the promo cards, which frankly usually aren't even that great. This just isn't the way things should be working.
I want to voice some dissent on this, because a) I do think Paizo's generally-excellent customer service is of some value, and b) I think the promo cards are totally worthwhile. I have subscribed since last July, before the game released, and am very glad that I did so, especially considering the price that those early promotional cards fetch on eBay. I really like to have every card for the game, and that small level of "collectibility" makes me really happy to be a subscriber. It is fun for me to encounter unique or rare cards where there's only one in the box, and the promo cards add a touch of whimsy to the game.
Of course, on that same note, the only time I have felt unhappy about the game is when they announced unique cards coming out with a non-card product (the miniatures). But that doesn't in any way cast aspersions on the value of the subscription, really - just highlights how they may not be properly aligning price with value in some of their non-core card game products, for certain types of customers. The subscription itself is, IMO, a worthwhile thing to do - especially for the promos.
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Agreed.
Even before GenCon, there were threads discussing the pluses and minuses of the subscription service. For me, it wasn't about speed, it was that I'd consistently get the product with the promos. Plus if I had any issues with what I got, Paizo's customer service has always been able to help me out. I know someone had mentioned that some of the cards they had gotten were overly dark (as if the black had printed twice). Same thing with one of my decks. I went through and found the worst cards, reported it to Paizo, and they sent out replacement cards. That's part of the reason I subscribe.
When I opened my Wizard deck, I found a few cards clumped together as if the ink hadn't dried when they were sealed together. So about 4-5 cards are actually damaged. And when all this sh*tstorm calms down, I'm going to contact CS and get replacements. (Plus they don't have the decks there in order to replace mine.)
So I'll just stand by with the rest of the people and wait for stuff to ship and hopefully figure out when OP will get to start.
Not all those things are true at the same time, at least not for everyone. They might be true for you but consider...
1. Cost more than retail price. That depends on where you buy it. I know the closest retail store to me charges MSRP ($59.99 for the Base Set, $19.99 for a deck box). So the Base Set + Character Add-on would have been 79.98. The sub costs me $47.99 for the Base Set, $15.99 for a deck box. With shipping, that is $63.98 So it saves me money. Now, granted I could get it for less from Amazon. I've got a Prime Membership, so I'll even exclude shipping. Say I could get the Base Set for $45 and a deck for $15 (which would be good prices according to camelcamelcamel). That is $60. So Amazon saved me $3.98.
47.99 + 15.99 = 63.98. How did you get $0 shipping? Mine is $20 + Bringing total to over $80 well above amazon, in fact actually above my FLGS.
Honestly I'm not concerned about the delays, and I'm good with the cost ... I support paizo to support Paizo. I was just concerned about being charged and absolutely 0 communication for over 2 weeks.
EDIT: Well with Taxes included probably better than my FLGS.
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Honestly I'm not concerned about the delays, and I'm good with the cost ... I support paizo to support Paizo. I was just concerned about being charged and absolutely 0 communication for over 2 weeks.
You saw Vic's response yesterday?
So subscriptions:
1. Cost more than retail price
2. Usually arrive later than retail street date (less often in the U.S, but literally always later in Canada where I am)
3. Give you promos that the FLGS's also get.Got it.
Not all those things are true at the same time, at least not for everyone. They might be true for you but consider...
1. Cost more than retail price. That depends on where you buy it. I know the closest retail store to me charges MSRP ($59.99 for the Base Set, $19.99 for a deck box). So the Base Set + Character Add-on would have been 79.98. The sub costs me $47.99 for the Base Set, $15.99 for a deck box. With shipping, that is $63.98 So it saves me money. Now, granted I could get it for less from Amazon. I've got a Prime Membership, so I'll even exclude shipping. Say I could get the Base Set for $45 and a deck for $15 (which would be good prices according to camelcamelcamel). That is $60. So Amazon saved me $3.98.
2. Usually arrive later than retail street date. Usually is a strong word. You mentioned your in Canada, so that is a factor, but other than the two times Amazon shipped orders BEFORE retail street date, I think Paizo has typically been delivering before retail street date to most customers. Granted, most of their customers are probably in the US. But even now, you'd probably have a hard time finding it in a local store, especially the character add-on deck which no one seems to have. Street date has come and gone, but Amazon still has it as pre-order, even the Base Set.
3. Your FLGS might be able to guarantee YOU that they'll give you every promo, but they couldn't do that for everyone. They don't get one promo per each product. They get SOME promos from their distributor. So, while they might promise you personally they will give you one of each, they can't do that for everyone because they just won't have enough promos. And potentially they'll have a month where they get no promos at all. Unless of course your FLGS has an...
You pay no shipping from Paizo? $47.99 + $15.99 = $63.98 meaning if that is cost with shipping, no shipping charge. Mine with shipping was $86 and change.
Not all those things are true at the same time, at least not for everyone. They might be true for you but consider...
1. Cost more than retail price. That depends on where you buy it. I know the closest retail store to me charges MSRP ($59.99 for the Base Set, $19.99 for a deck box). So the Base Set + Character Add-on would have been 79.98. The sub costs me $47.99 for the Base Set, $15.99 for a deck box. With shipping, that is $63.98 So it saves me money. Now, granted I could get it for less from Amazon. I've got a Prime Membership, so I'll even exclude shipping. Say I could get the Base Set for $45 and a deck for $15 (which would be good prices according to camelcamelcamel). That is $60. So Amazon saved me $3.98.
47.99 + 15.99 = 63.98. How did you get $0 shipping? Mine is $20 + Bringing total to over $80 well above amazon, in fact actually above my FLGS.
Honestly I'm not concerned about the delays, and I'm good with the cost ... I support paizo to support Paizo. I was just concerned about being charged and absolutely 0 communication for over 2 weeks.
EDIT: Well with Taxes included probably better than my FLGS.
Drat. Didn't use my calculator correctly. It would be more like $80. And then I screwed up my point. That my FLGS charges almost $80. I accidentally compared the wrong things. So that point should have been, Paizo costs me $83.98, FLGS would cost me $79.98. So I'm not really saving anything at the FLGS. I can save at Amazon, but I don't get promos at Amazon and typically don't get it by the street date (except for those two goofs by Amazon).
So to summarize:
My FLGS doesn't save me money (not significantly) and doesn't guarantee me promos and, on average, isn't the quickest way to get it.
Amazon saves me money, but doesn't have promos and on average isn't the quickest way to get it.
Paizo doesn't save me money, gives me all the promos, and on average is the quickest way to get it.
So, on the three categories I'd base my decision on, Paizo wins on 2 of them. Plus, supporting Paizo gives them more profit. More profit = continued production. I've got no loyalty to my FLGS since I'm not a big RPG/MTG kind of gamer (in fact, Paizo giving Ranzak away on Free RPG Day is the reason I've ever bought anything there, which was one of the RotR playmat packs because I felt like a chump going in, asking the owner to do organized play and not buying anything from him).
That is me, living on the east coast. Others may have different experiences.
i'd argue that recently amazon is the quickest way to get subscription items, but you don't get the promos. most of my friends who bought through amazon had theirs before I got mine through the sub.
Honestly I'm not concerned about the delays, and I'm good with the cost ... I support paizo to support Paizo. I was just concerned about being charged and absolutely 0 communication for over 2 weeks.You saw Vic's response yesterday?
That's why I used was in the past tense. I was charged on The 7th... communication happened on 25th. Not complaining was just voicing a concern. If asked I'd have been fine with them putting my with September Shipment.
When it comes right down to it, the subscription really is about personal preference, and I still maintain it's mostly about the promos.
Here's some info to add to the bonfire:
After even a 5 minute google search for online retailers that sell the product, I found multiple places that will sell me the base set + character add-on pack for just shy of $56 + shipping. One of these stores I've used before also includes promo cards (at least they did for other games), until their stock runs out, and in my experience if you pre-order from them, you'll USUALLY get the promo cards. Having contacted their customer service before, they also ship items so that the approximate delivery date is the same as the release date (which means on occasion you'll even get it early), and I have never gotten something late from them.
Even with their ~10 shipping (and some of the retailers provide free shipping anyway), that blows paizo's prices out of the water. The delivery gets to me faster as well. So for me, the real issue is whether or not I want to 1) support paizo directly and 2) pay more for a guarantee of promos. In the early days of RotR, with the extra cost fro promos was almost a no-brainer (though not getting the shipment for a week or two after the release date has always been annoying). As fun as some of the promos lately might be from a flavor perspective, how many people can honestly attest to wanting them in their deck by the end? More than that, my experience with the S&S promos in the play-test (baring Ranzak of course) was to remove them from the game as soon as they were encountered. Granted, the promos likely will have changed since then, but to me I see very little advantage in having them short of some sense of completionism (which I tend to agree with Calthaer on about the miniature-linked cards... no way I'm spending $30 a pop for minis I won't use and a few new cards).
Again, subscribing or not comes mostly down to personal preference... but I will say that it certainly seems to me that paizo should be able to make that subscription a heck of a lot more appealing than it currently is. If retailers are guaranteed to get their shipments before release (baring the occasional clusterf@&@ with a printer anyway) and subscribers *usually* get their shipments *BY* release, I'm not sure how the claim that subscribers are prioritized holds much water.
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For me, I'm subscribing partly to support Paizo and partly to have things come to me automatically without having to make a trip to the FLGS or remember to order it online elsewhere. Since I have Amazon Prime it's definitely costing me more, the timing of when it arrives seems to be a wash, and while the promo cards are nice, for me personally they're not essential and thus are not really a part of the equation. As others have said, whether the subscription makes sense comes down to what is most important to you.
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Gen Con was very stressful this year.
This is truth.
Im actually not even frustrated or upset with Paizo over the add-on deck thing. There's not much you can do about printer issues once they happen, you can only work with them to ensure they don't happen again.
They're doing the best they can in a crappy situation, and a sense of perspective is important here, this is the end of august already and in a matter of a few weeks everyone should be playing the game. I'm just puzzled about why this subscription service consistently feels like such a bad bargain to me, but different strokes for different folks.
I think the bolded part is the key thing. Paizo's subscriptions offer various stated benefits and that isn't what everyone is looking for. They've repeatedly stressed that they don't mind what distribution channel you use - paizo want and expect people to make whatever decision is best for their personal situation.
They are balancing a lot of things given their dual role as publisher and web store - one issue I haven't seen raised in this thread is Paizo's recognition of the importance of the FLGS. They obviously could offer their own products at savage discount to retail, but don't do that so as not to undercut FLGSes. The only discounts they provide in an ongoing fashion are for subscribers (and its really more compensation for shipping costs). Similarly, they could get us our goodies early each month - but that would be a crappy thing to do to brick and mortar stores.
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They are balancing a lot of things given their dual role as publisher and web store - one issue I haven't seen raised in this thread is Paizo's recognition of the importance of the FLGS. They obviously could offer their own products at savage discount to retail, but don't do that so as not to undercut FLGSes. The only discounts they provide in an ongoing fashion are for subscribers (and its really more compensation for shipping costs)
But if you factor in that they need to get their product to distributors and that they are still wanting organized play to start early September, they may not be mentioning FLGSes directly but they know where we spend our time (as some of us do) and the importance of those stores as gathering points to play the game. Organized play isn't designed for home use or solo use. They will sell the scenarios to customers after a month's worth, but it is designed to be played at a retail location. Believe me that they want us to support our local retailers.
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...Paizo's subscriptions offer various stated benefits and that isn't what everyone is looking for. They've repeatedly stressed that they don't mind what distribution channel you use - paizo want and expect people to make whatever decision is best for their personal situation.
Yep. I'll even say it this way: If having a subscription with us makes you unhappy, I don't want you to have a subscription with us. But we can't undercut our retailers, we can't lose money on shipping, and we can't promise that you'll have your product before the retail release date (though most customers in the US usually will). We offer what we can offer; if somebody else is able to offer you something that works better for you, please take them up on it.
I just want you to be informed about your choices. And to that end, I need to point out that for S&S, we have created 12 promo cards (counting Ranzak as 1 card for this purpose). At this time, only 7 of them are scheduled for retail distribution (or 8—Ranzak again—if your retailer participated in Free RPG day).
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Organized play isn't designed for home use or solo use. They will sell the scenarios to customers after a month's worth, but it is designed to be played at a retail location. Believe me that they want us to support our local retailers.
We do want you to support your local retailers, but we very much kept home and convention play in mind as well as retail when we designed the OP program. While retailers will get to experience things first, I'm very commented to ensuring that if you're playing at home, you're not getting a lesser experience.
I just want you to be informed about your choices. And to that end, I need to point out that for S&S, we have created 12 promo cards (counting Ranzak as 1 card for this purpose). At this time, only 7 of them are scheduled for retail distribution (or 8—Ranzak again—if your retailer participated in Free RPG day).
That's great to know, if I recall for RotR, only Firesneeze and one other promo (through a magazine) were not available at FLGSs. Still, I hope you understand why, as a Canadian living in Toronto, I get frustrated seeing adventure card products hit the shelves a week or two before I get them in the mail, which would happen regularly to me during RotR and for cheaper as well.
Good luck and hope September is a calmer, happier month for you and your staff.
Good luck and hope September is a calmer, happier month for you and your staff.
I will second this. Even though I have expressed some annoyance at how all of this has gone down, I definitely, whole-heartedly hope September is a calmer, happier month for Paizo and everyone involved in this fiasco. You all deserve it.
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Still, I hope you understand why, as a Canadian living in Toronto, I get frustrated seeing adventure card products hit the shelves a week or two before I get them in the mail, which would happen regularly to me during RotR and for cheaper as well.
Good luck and hope September is a calmer, happier month for you and your staff.
I absolutely understand your frustration. Paizo has been shipping to Canada since our magazine publishing days in 2002, and I have to say, Canada Post has never been known for speedy deliveries. (Any chance you have a friend in upstate New York you like to visit once a month?)
I'd also say that the packaging for subscription items is superior to what you might get with Amazon although I had to switch to UPS only since my postal carrier takes Do Not Bend as a personal challenge and jams it into the mailbox.
Heh. My brother used to send out Christmas gifts marked "Fragile, Smash With Care". So they did. :-)
I got my shipping email today, so rest assured fellow subs, they're working through the log jam.
To Vic and the team at Paizo... Thank you for all you do. I appreciate the work that goes into all this on both Paizo's and Lone Sharks end. I love the product and anxiously anticipate receipt of the game.
