Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Humans, Orcs, Ratfolk, Tengus.
Dwarves, Elves, and Humans are the staple races. Removing them for a setting like Golarion would be foolhardy and make a lot of people upset. While for a more off-the-wall setting I can easily see either very strange dwarves/elves or a complete absence of them, here they need to maintain a presence.
Gnomes vs. Halflings is a bit tough, since they have a good amount of similarities. Gnomes are more fey-like, have a more interesting backstory, are more magically inclined, and are generally more interesting than Halflings. Halflings fill a "gutter-trash" niche to them that are going to be filled by Ratfolk and Tengus, though, so they're even more redundant.
Unlike a couple of the other posters here, I don't have a problem with the half-humans at all. I do sort of dislike that they're core races, though; when, from a player's perspective, there seem to be more Half-Orcs than true Orcs you're going to run into a bit of disillusionment. I'd keep the half-humans in some capacity, but they'd either be a racial trait options package or be prominently represented in the ARG equivalent. Orcs step in for Half-Orcs, maybe being rebalanced mechanically and lorewise to be more player friendly, and Half-Orcs get to be a featured race in the ARG instead.
That leaves Ratfolk and Tengus. They've got a connection to Humans like the Halflings did, since they typically inhabit Human cities, so that's good. Ratfolk are another shorty race so the Gnomes don't feel lonely, too. They've got some decent fluff and would be easy to introduce into most settings as an "urban" race, in contrast to the Elves and Gnomes and in concert with Dwarves (hoping that they aren't Terry Pratchett's Dwarfs with a propensity for eating rats, of course), Tengus can be at home in cities and in the wilderness, I feel, and they've got a cool feel to them that isn't represented by other races. They've got the whole "graceful warrior" along with the Elves, to contrast with Dwarves and Orcs, but they don't really have the whole "aloof, holier-than-thou" feeling, so that's good.
Of course, mechanically that list isn't very well balanced, but screw that. Mechanics are a lot easier to change than narrative feelings.
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1. Interesting is in the eye of the beholder.
2. Race and personality are completely unrelated.
Technically, all qualitative value is in the 'eye of the beholder', but few people are going to argue that Twilight is a better work than Shakespeare. (Those who do are either idiots or being deliberately contrary.)
However, there are certain factors that can be considered when trying to determine value as closely to objectively as is possible when dealing with what is necessarily subjective. Since nearly all original work is derivative of work that came before it, how derivative is it? In the narrative sense, what options does this particular choice sensibly provide? Of course you can make anything into anything, but it would be jarring to the point of disruptive, for instance, if aliens with sci-fi technology arrived in the next book of A Song of Ice and Fire.
As to #2, you cannot entirely separate race from personality. Not in this sort of fantasy role-playing game. The personality is part of the race. Tieflings not only commit the sin of being redundant, but they're redundant even within the provided material - half-orcs already fulfill the hated halfbreed with a dark and troublesome origin niche. There was hardly a need for another.
Obviously, Tieflings vs Gnomes is not as serious a discrepancy as Twilight vs Shakespeare. But to me it reflects the same marketing urge that feels the need to repackage everything with the more brightly colored elements removed and replaced by drab grays to make it 'adult'. But Gnomes get all of the hate because somehow dark and grimy is synonymous with better in this new paradigm, even if what replaces it is yawningly trite.
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Half-elves -> Hobgoblin. I know. Goblins AND hobgoblins? But I feel like they differentiate themselves strongly and the hobgoblin's militaristic/imperialistic nature gives them a lot of cool design space that isn't normally explored in core races.
I would replace Drow with Hobgoblins as an 'anti-elf,' all graceful and cruel and efficient and deadly, in a hot second.
Half-elves are intriguing in that they might even be far less than 'half' elf. If the so-called 'full elves' are just a pale shadow of the even more alien / supernatural / innately magical elves of their home world (plane, whatever), then it might be a deep unspoken secret shame of the 'elves' that they themselves are looked down upon as tainted half-bloods by the *real* elves, back home, who aren't going to invite them back any time soon... The so-called 'half-elves' are just humans with enough drops of elven blood somewhere way back in their lineage to modify their racial attributes and show on their faces.
And yeah, if I could only have one of Gnomes and Goblins, it would be Goblins, no contest.
[heresy] I was never a Planescape fan, so Aasimar and Tieflings never really did anything for me. Elemental planetouched, even less. [/heresy]
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Humans
Elves
Dwarves
Gnomes
Goblins
Orcs
Tiefling/Aasimar and Oreads/Ifrits/Sylphs/Undines would be feats (or traits) applicable to any of the other races. Toughest choice was Hobgoblins and Kobolds not being included when Gnome was, but I think everyone else has touched on how much Dwarf, Human and Elf seems to be 'needed', and Gnomes fit better than the other two with those races, in my opinion.
Humans, Half-Breeds (Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Dhampirs, etc. Include non-traditional half-breeds, like half elf/half dwarf), Plane Touched (Anything touched by planes, tieflings/assimar/suli/etc), The Dragon-kin (Dragonfolk, Kobold, Wyvaran, etc), The Forged (Androids, Wyrwood).
What? I'd set up each section as you get the 'base' stuff, then whatever 'heritage' you choose, you get the extra stuff.
Bard, Inquisitor, Ranger, Barbarian, Sorcerer, Cleric, Witch, Druid
oops. I thought I was in the classes thread. :)
I have never seen anyone play a halfling so I might switch them out for an android just to have that one odd race.
Bard, Inquisitor, Ranger, Barbarian, Sorcerer, Cleric, Witch, Druidoops. I thought I was in the classes thread. :)
I have never seen anyone play a halfling so I might switch them out for an android just to have that one odd race.
The problem with Halflings as they're statted is that they're weaker than the other races. I wish they another ability to bring them in line with the other races.
This is what I would do:
Slinger: Halflings have a cultural tradition of throwing and slinging games beginning as children. Thrown weapons and slings are also how they traditionally defend their homes. Halflings gain a +1 attack and damage with thrown weapons and slings. In addition, they are proficient with all simple and martial thrown weapons and slings.
I'd say Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Goblins, Orcs, Elementals. Half-variants would be created by applying templates, whereas flavours of elf would be created by different sets of race traits. Goblins over Kobolds because I like Goblins more. Gnomes over Kobolds because it's easier to imagine a Gnome/Goblin rivalry than a Goblin/Kobold rivalry.
The problem with Halflings as they're statted is that they're weaker than the other races.Bard, Inquisitor, Ranger, Barbarian, Sorcerer, Cleric, Witch, Druidoops. I thought I was in the classes thread. :)
I have never seen anyone play a halfling so I might switch them out for an android just to have that one odd race.
I agree. Goblins are better than halfings to me. Even in 3.5 it was pretty close.
I don't know what I would give them though since goblins already get +4 bonus to stealth IIRC.
Maybe a +2 to diplomacy and bluff checks.
I personally like the idea of core races varying depending on the location in the world, but for sake of simplicity I'd love to get rid of halflings, half elves and half orcs. Then replace them with kobolds, catfolk, and perhaps samsaran. I like the plane touched races equally, but that means there are too many to include them all as core.
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I personally like the idea of core races varying depending on the location in the world, but for sake of simplicity I'd love to get rid of halflings, half elves and half orcs. Then replace them with kobolds, catfolk, and perhaps samsaran. I like the plane touched races equally, but that means there are too many to include them all as core.
Ooo, samsarans are a good pick, I'd forgotten about them.
Cheers!
Landon
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I personally like the idea of core races varying depending on the location in the world, but for sake of simplicity I'd love to get rid of halflings, half elves and half orcs. Then replace them with kobolds, catfolk, and perhaps samsaran. I like the plane touched races equally, but that means there are too many to include them all as core.Cheat and count them as one race.
Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of the whole exercise?
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The alignment in parentheses after each race is the predominant (but not restrictive) alignment for those races.
Core 5: Elf(CG), Dwarf(LG), Human(none), Orc(CN), Goblin(NE)
These cover basic fantasy character races and provide good, bad, and indifferent tendencies (all without including a certain subterranean race that feel a lot like variant-elf). I would be in favor of having only these 5 to start then expand to include more specifically flavored race options.
If forced to choose 7, I would also include: Aasimar(NG), Tiefling(N)
These options push toward a more planar setting and could probably be replaced with more generic races.
As expansions, I think the monster races (especially natural lycanthropes), the elemental-touched races, and more plane-touched are very interesting options for more specific campaigns. Some would also probably like android races and arcane-touched races as well.
I recall the OP asking for seven races.
- Human
- Dwarf
- Elf
- Kobold
- Tiefling
- Aasimar
- Orc
Planetouched from the elemental planes would also be welcome.
The alignment in parentheses after each race is the predominant (but not restrictive) alignment for those races.
Core 5: Elf(CG), Dwarf(LG), Human(none), Orc(CN), Goblin(NE)
These cover basic fantasy character races and provide good, bad, and indifferent tendencies (all without including a certain subterranean race that feel a lot like variant-elf). I would be in favor of having only these 5 to start then expand to include more specifically flavored race options.
If forced to choose 7, I would also include: Aasimar(NG), Tiefling(N)
These options push toward a more planar setting and could probably be replaced with more generic races.
** spoiler omitted **
As expansions, I think the monster races (especially natural lycanthropes), the elemental-touched races, and more plane-touched are very interesting options for more specific campaigns. Some would also probably like android races and arcane-touched races as well.
I like these criteria. It expresses well why I think elves, gnomes, dwarves and halflings seemed redundant to me.
for my seven, id keep human, elf, dwarf, and halfling. then add full orcs, dhampir, and goblin. remove the very similar half races to add some more bestial races as well as a small touch of the undead.
Wayangs are the only small race without -str so they have to go in. They have +int -wis.
Also Monkey Goblins.
Personally not a fan of anthropomorphics as much as a lot of people here are.
Also not really a fan of gnomes, like many others in this thread, they really lack flavor to me. They could probably be replaced or combined with halflings with no one really noticing or caring tbh.
Would also nix half-races as part of core, and include half-races in a supplement.
seven races?
1) humans
2) elves
3) dwarves
4) halflings/gnomes
5) orcs
6) goblins
7) kobolds
an expansion could include half races, as a template, and then include the planetouched races as well as alternate races like duergar, drow, svifneblin, hobgoblins, and others.
Something I'm doing in a world that I'm building is taking a page from Shadowrun; Dwarfs, Elfs, and Orcs are all (meta)human.
I'm in the middle of building a campaign setting based around an alternate earth and set in Australasia, and I'm homebrewing a lot of races, and letting friends homebrew races as well. The main way of creating races has been games of Pantheon, a creat-a-world game, which then gets converted to Pathfinder.
In world, Elves have left the planet, save for those who were turned into Drow. The Himalayas are ruled by the Tarn, or yak-folk. The predominant race of New Zealand are the Almari, which are hardy almost-humans. Centaurs come from Japan as well as a symbiotic race of spirits I'm calling Yokai. The Yokai bond with an animal, so they're basically the "play an animal" race. Medium-sized Ents are the dominant race of mainland Australia (older Ents are too "planted" for adventure).
So:
1) Drow
2) Tarn
3) Centaurs
4) Yokai
5) Almari
6) Ents
7) all of the other uncommon races :-P
Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of the whole exercise?I personally like the idea of core races varying depending on the location in the world, but for sake of simplicity I'd love to get rid of halflings, half elves and half orcs. Then replace them with kobolds, catfolk, and perhaps samsaran. I like the plane touched races equally, but that means there are too many to include them all as core.Cheat and count them as one race.
That would be my thought as well. Besides, they are pretty disparate to count as one race no more that I'd count all reptilian humanoids as one race. I mean, we could have a core of human + native outsider races as core (ifrit, undine, oread, sylph, suli, fetchling, aasimar, tiefling) and would already be at 9 races. If the question was "which races should you be allowed to play?" then the answer would be "all of them, if the setting permits!"
Humans, Grippli, five flavours of Gnomes.
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My campaign allows the following for PC races: humans, duergar, svirfneblin, dhampir, sylph, ifrit, suli (wind or fire)
The humanoid enemies are mainly humans, grippli, vishkanya, skum, undine, gillmen, mermen, oread, suli (earth or water).
Mainly Law vs Chaos instead of Good vs Evil, and Air/Fire vs Earth/Water. You might think air and fire are more chaotic, but I associated them with the Sun and sky god so those are the PC races of Law.
I've been running Human, Elf, Half-Elf, Dwarf, Gnoll (homebrewed), and Goblin as the common races in my world. Elves, Dwarves, and Goblins have subraces available.
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Also not really a fan of gnomes, like many others in this thread, they really lack flavor to me.If a race lacks flavor, than the fault is either in the world creator for not giving them a decent background, or the player in lacking a wide enough field of perception.
Because when you get down to it, all races are a size, a visual description, and a pack of stat and race modifiers. The flavor is all in the packaging.
I'd drop half-elves and half-orcs, and probably also halflings, since they're just too obvious an ersatz hobbit (and it's weird that the name they identify with implies that they're "half" of something else. Wouldn't humans be "doublings" to them?)
There used to be Lings all over the place. Right tiny little freaks. A combination of crossbreeding with humans and taller races not seeing them underfoot eventually wiped them out though.
Honestly though, the existence of halflings has always bothered me. Most of what's in Tolkien's book is pulled from mythological sources, so it's all well and good having them in your generic fantasy game, but hobbits are absolutely his personal creation and while I can totally see stating them out as a fan thing, it is seriously messed up that someone just filed off the serial numbers and worked them so thoroughly into the default assumptions of D&D back in the day.
Past that, it depends on what the context here is. If it's "what should logically be hanging around most of the inner sea area and getting along" I'd definitely throw tieflings onto the list, and then I would either add in orcs or take out half-orcs, because it is just plain weird to have the hybrids all over the place and almost never see the baseline. Changelings might make the cut too... although at a certain point it really does become a region by region thing. Humans are everywhere (along with halflings I suppose), dwarves are fine if you're in their neck of the woods, same with elves, tieflings in Chelliax, changelings wherever the highest hag concentrations are, gnolls down n katapesh... I suppose all that leaves as truly core though is humans, and maybe halflings and gnomes.
If we're talking homebrew games, I'm down on any sort of half-human races for the same reasons as everyone else, and honestly I'm not generally a fan of all these various races living in the same settlements. I say if you're going to have humans dwarves and elves as distinct races, they really should be fundamentally different and/or isolated enough to have generally non-overlapping civilizations, with profoundly different cultural values. When I run a setting like that, I generally push for everyone playing a single race. What race depends on the campaign though.
Past that, it depends on what the context here is. If it's "what should logically be hanging around most of the inner sea area and getting along" I'd definitely throw tieflings onto the list, and then I would either add in orcs or take out half-orcs, because it is just plain weird to have the hybrids all over the place and almost never see the baseline.
Well, some of the alternate racial abilities such as Skilled for half orcs talk about things like "Second- and third-generation half-orcs" that have more in common with humans.
Taking a statement like that at face value, that would mean that you are still considered a 'half-orc' up until 1/8. Looking at it from that perspective, it would be relatively easy to imagine that such individuals could be the result of a horde forming up and rampaging the region once every hundred years, before being pushed back to Mordor or where ever terrible place the 'civilized' races deem fit for them to live in.
I assume half elves work under similar assumptions for bloodlines, which could work out rather well since a couple generations of elves with.... certain interests (What happens in the Temple of Calistria stays in the temple of Calistria) ....showing up every 20 or so years could easily start a population of half elves under these limits.
Humans
Elves
Dwarfs
Swap out Gnomes for Kobold with better stat adjustments
Swap out Half-Elves for Tengu
Halflings can stay but could swap them out for Aasimars or Tieflings
Half-Orcs into Full Orcs
The Half-Races are essentially humans with a few speciAl abilities. Not interesting enough to justify including them as core races.
Never liked Gnome no matter the flavor. Kobold could always use some more love it
And Tengu are just to cool to not be a core race
Human because one practically has to
Catfolk to take the place of elves as 'nimble, exotic tree dwellers'
Gnolls to take place of dwarves as 'hairy, grumpy, hard working folk'
Nagagi to be the 'bestial brute' race
Ratfolk to be the sneaky small race
Gnomes because gnomes are crazy awesome
Tengu because they're pretty cool too
2 +str races
3 +dex races
2 +con races
1 +int race
2 +wis races
3 +cha races
1 +any race
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My personal taste? I would introduce a race to replace the Half Orc.
I never got the reason it was brought back in the first place.
So...
- Human - we are, we are...
- Elf - can't take away the hot elven babes
- Dwarf - because we need the scottish accent
- Gnome - Comedy relief
- Halfling - grounded fellows, wouldn't be the same without em'
- Half Elf - cause humans can't help themselves.
- Dragonkin - gruff like the Half - Orc without the dubious background.
So the next book would have other races, like the Tengu, Teifling, Aasimar, Kobold and so on.
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The Half-Races are essentially humans with a few speciAl abilities. Not interesting enough to justify including them as core races.
I'm a fan of half races because being not completely part of whatever community they grew up in seems to be built-in to who they are from an RP perspective.
This requires some thinking and no built-in stereotypes like dwarves with Scottish accents.
For example, my half orc is very protective of his little sisters because, growing up in a mixed race family meant you could have vigilantes at your doorstep at any night. He also works for his own respectability as protection for his loved ones.
My half elf saw all her friends outgrow her and her human father become an old man. In response her closest friend was her eidolon. The fact that her half blood contrasted with her family's high social status to the point she knew that she knew she wouldn't be accepted as her father's heir forces her to become an adventurer.
But in both cases their race has played a big role in how I play them and is MORE central to their character than it is for other races. When someone describes or plays them as humans with a few special abilities, my reaction is that this is not well thought out.
Basically, it's a missed opportunity. While I can see some reasons why you wouldn't have half races, the idea of them just being variant humans just seems incredibly not well thought out.
So if you dump them, just don't do it for this reason.
Truer words were never spoken. Indeed I'm with you Kerney, half-races can be quite fun (if one is willing to put the creative effort in). It was thanks to the half-races (half-elves to be exact) that I was able to enjoy pathfinder more, because I don't like playing as a human (I prefer 'monsters') and I'm not a huge fan of elves, dwarves or halflings. Gnomes would have been a push due to being dubbed as 'exiled fey' (because while I have no qualms about being an alien, I didn't want to be a small character) and the same goes for half-orcs too (but only because I am not a big orc fan).
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A thought has just occurred to me guys, none of the core races (or any playable races that I know of) are large characters only medium and small. Also, the vast majority of the races are humanoid or (native) outsider with the ghoran and wyrwood being the only exceptions (plant and construct respectively). What's your thoughts and have any of you seen/heard of races that ARE large or any other non small/medium size and that are not humanoid/outsider?
A thought has just occurred to me guys, none of the core races (or any playable races that I know of) are large characters only medium and small. Also, the vast majority of the races are humanoid or (native) outsider with the ghoran and wyrwood being the only exceptions (plant and construct respectively). What's your thoughts and have any of you seen/heard of races that ARE large or any other non small/medium size and that are not humanoid/outsider?
Centaur (large monstrous humanoid)
Trox (large monstrous humanoid)
I assume I'd stick with semi-Norse high fantasy so I'd go with;
Dwarves
Elves/Half-Elves
Giant/Half-Giant
Humans
First Folk (Gnomes probably)
Tiefling
Aasimar