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After a full 8 hours of rest, the Rogue wakes with no known Talents.
Talents are gained each day in the order used, chosen freely from all Talents that the Rogue qualifies for.

Would this improve the Rogue?


Have your character mention their support group.
Be fearful knowing of an upcoming stimulus.
Mutter about how many days it's been since the last accident while you declare your Actions during combat.
Excuse your character from combat early, to wander a short distance away and recover and/or rub one out.

Describe the effects of this condition on your character, yet leave out what the cause is for the party.

Else, let everyone know about your condition up front; and while you will CDG every fallen enemy or ally, even if you just watched them endure a CDG, and risk yourself to do so immediately, you are not a "bad" guy.

Just have a condition, ya'know?


Things to perhaps consider:

1 - How sadistic?
Is there a point where it's too much? What is the minimum?

2 - What form?
Pain, degradation, sexual? All of them, or what minimum?

3 - What response is generated to stimulus?
Does the character greedily cause more, try to "preserve the moment", is overcome with guilt or shame, become aroused, or something else?

4 - How integrated?
Is the character "F yeah, sadism!" or at odds with it, or even in treatment already?

You could be a Lawful Good character that is worried about seeing spilled blood, insists on using non-lethal damage, and has to change their pants after every fight.


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OmNomNid wrote:
Hark wrote:
In honor of the greatest Kobold of all time the only right and proper class for a Kobold would be a Psion. If you're not into 3pp, I guess you could try the psychic.
...that kobold's name wouldn't be Billy, would it?

The greatest kobold's name is Tucker.


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Have one quiver equipped at a time.
Each quiver has 20 arrows, weighs 3 lbs.
When the quiver runs out, use a Move Action to retrieve the next quiver, which provokes for Retrieve a Stowed Item.
If generous, have the quivers replaced during the Retrieve.
If not, have a Move to remove empty quiver, Move to Retrieve, then a Move to don the new quiver.

Force your archers to rely on scouting in order to stash quivers in tactical locations, such as fall-back points.

Trying to play a dedicated arrow turret should not be feasible without a +2 Endless Ammunition enchant, whereas managing weight and the Action economy of quiver rotation is intrinsic to the archer experience.

Roll or otherwise determine weather.
Random Weather
Almost 20% of the time, weather should be modifying play; mostly to the detriment of ranged attacks.


With the release of the Unchained Rogue and the lingering comments of it proving underwhelming, maybe the class could be buoyed by combining it with, and improving upon, what is likely the most maligned Combat Feat line in the game: Vital Strike.

Sneak Attack appears almost common these days, and Vital Strike seems closest to 2ndED and priors' flat multiplier to damage that the Rogue used to enjoy. My hope is that if sufficiently improved, Vital Strike may become a viable option, if not signature to the class, and overcome the lack of BAB, ineffective iterative attacks, and poor performance at range. The general theme is to improve Vital Strike while balancing against Finesse Training and having it only available once each round. Wording has been chosen to not exclude the use of ranged attacks.

All changes are intended to be added straight to the chassis of an Unchained Rogue.

Level 2 - Patient Precision
When a Rogue uses a Readied Action that attacks a Target during their turn, a bonus to Hit is gained equal to the number of Sneak Attack dice available to the Rogue, even if the attack does not qualify as a Sneak Attack.
[This is to address comments concerning a lack of self-buffing of the Rogue's +Hit modifier, while letting it scale without being dip-bait.]

Level 7 - Practiced Precision
Bonus Feat: Vital Strike
When making any action what includes only a single attack, such as Spring Attack or Charging, the Rogue may use Vital Strike (including Improved or Greater) with that attack. This ability only works if a single attack is made during the Action, and only with a Finesse Trained weapon or one that normally requires Dexterity to Hit.
[Let the Rogue use Vital Strike when others cannot. Yes, pretty much the Rogue gets Vital Strike anytime only one attack is made that round.]

Level 13 - Intuitive Precision
Bonus Feat: Improved Vital Strike
When the Rogue gains the benefit of both Patient and Practiced Precision, the attack ignores an amount of DR equal to the higher of the Rogue's Intelligence or Wisdom Modifier (if positive)
[This this would recoup some efficacy lost by being a more than slightly MAD class, while encouraging the use of Vital Strike. The benefit here may actually be too low. Initially I intended this to instead of a +Hit bonus, yet wasn't confident in granting two +Hit abilities]

Level 17 - Effortless Precision
Bonus Feat: Greater Vital Strike
Whenever the Rogue gains the benefit of both Patient and Practiced Precision, the Rogue may apply Sneak Attack damage even if the target is not Flat-Footed, Flanked, of Dexless.
[This is when it comes full circle. The old version of multiplying damage combines with the current mild damage spike yet doesn't rely on Sneak Attack's situational nature, to become the Voltron of hopeful Rogue relevance.]

I'm just spit-balling here and have not run numbers or modeled scenarios, although I have been playing a lot of BG2:EE of late which roused the damage multiplier nostalgia.

Thoughts or flaws anyone?


It may be of use to list what is considered iconic or thematic to the class before adjusting systems.

A rogue should:

1 - Have high busts of damage rather than consistent damage.
If a Rogue sees their damage peak every 2 or 3 rounds, there is an even to high chance that the peak won't arrive due to mid-BAB and the rocket-tag nature of the game.

2 - Be able to scout, and have it be useful rather than suicide.
This is confounded by an incomplete and obtuse Stealth system, and that the only mechanical benefit to scouting (that I am aware of) lies with the Battle Scout (Ranger) with their Advantageous Terrain ability.

3 - Be able to "know a guy".
From my perspective, a Rogue should enjoy some benefit to consorting with unsavory or dubious sorts, outside of Black Market Connections.

4 - Have a "hacker" and "maker" perspective to solving problems.
The closest that systems seem to support this, is through UMD, Disguise, and Disable Device. Sadly, the skill systems do not support their use offensively in combat. There isn't a way to throw random components at a caster to mess up their spell, disable magic items at a distance without spells, or have Disable Device act similar to Sunder. They should be able to alter tools for extra benefit, such as using alchemical items in unconventional ways or knowing how to increase their effect. I honestly believe that Rogues should be the best at counter-spells.

5 - Have the tools for the job.
Much like having a collection of tools to crack safes, a fantasy Rogue should be able to use a collection of tools like a component pouch for countering arcane/divine/druid threats; things like knowing how to knock a druid out of Wild Shape, or how to mess with a Mage's prepared spells. Poison's were a missed opportunity here. An image comes to mind of that smarmy guy in that The Mummy movie that had the absurd collection of holy symbols...

6 - Be a dabbler and/or a drop-out.
Minor/Major Magic does a passable job representing a casual study of the arcane, yet seems lacking. Abilities of other classes should be available as Talents, or as part of thematic ability packages in the vein of Cavalier Orders or Ranger Styles.

From my experience with Rogues, their greatest obstacle is how most encounters are conducted by player SWAT teams, and that such is most effective. I would hope that having a Rogue on the team is what allows the cutting of corners in encounter difficulty, rather than being a CLW wand sink, yet that is the nature of the game.


Solo Tactics wrote:
At 3rd level, all of the inquisitor’s allies are treated as if they possessed the same teamwork feats as the inquisitor for the purpose of determining whether the inquisitor receives a bonus from her teamwork feats. Her allies do not receive any bonuses from these feats unless they actually possess the feats themselves. The allies’ positioning and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the teamwork feat for the inquisitor to receive the listed bonus.
Teamwork Feats wrote:

Teamwork feats grant large bonuses, but they only function under specific circumstances. In most cases, these feats require an ally who also possesses the feat to be positioned carefully on the battlefield. Teamwork feats provide no bonus if the listed conditions are not met.

Note that allies who are paralyzed, stunned, unconscious, or otherwise unable to act do not count for the purposes of these feats.


I have long wished to confront a group with a Treant druid lich.


How we've run it is that HiPS and it's variants do not allow you to *Poof*; rather it's utility is in the consequence of having your cover/concealment removed.

You move into a closet and close the door. Assuming stealth is successful, an enemy opens the door:

Shadowdancer
As long as it's still dark in the closet, it appears empty

Ranger
If it's a favored terrain, it appears empty

Hellcat
If it is well lit in the closet, it appears empty.

HiPS then simulates having one guy hot on the heels of another, a corner is turned, and the first guy seems gone. The only time we let it be a *Poof*, is after a Distraction.

HiPS should not allow one to enter a stealth state, rather, it should allow a stealth state to be preserved when it otherwise wouldn't.

I have been in love with stealth since BECMI.
I want stealth to be powerful and awesome for everyone.
I hold the current rules of Stealth/Perception and Concentration/Distraction to be incomplete, and broken if you look at all the rules.


#1
Magic and Casting

A:
The default assumption should be that casting requires two hands. One for the Somatic component, another for the Material component. Eschew Materials frees up a hand in most cases.

B:
Somatic components should be more than finger wiggles and include full body motions causing the caster to be Flat-Footed while casting. This has Sneak Attacks be devastating when interrupting.

C:
During the casting of a spell, or maintaining Concentration, a penalty should be applied to Perception; the caster is distracting themselves.

D:
Most buffs/debuffs should be Concentration based, or otherwise limited in how many may be applied.

#2
Stealth and Perception

A:
There needs to be a complete overhaul of how to evade notice and to find targets that actually works.

B:
Stealth should be a viable tactical choice for every class. The game should not place the pinnacle of combat as door kicks + novas.

#3
Martial Classes

A:
Every class at level seven should be magical or supernatural in some way. It is highly unusual to survive that long without ever being subjected to spells or using magic items. You should either get something supernatural, or cancer.

A fighter should wind up with the knowledge and ability to fight anything, not because they have a caster standing behind them. Flying, invisible, and made of fire? A twentieth level fighter should be able to handle it with a signal mirror and a stack of plates. A twentieth level rogue should straight up play like an Urbanomancer from Unknown Armies.

B:
There should be good mechanical reasons to -not- use magic or magical gear; things like DR/ordinary.


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Some things that may help encounters to be more interesting, without having to resort to Tucker's Kobolds

#1
Hostility
Very few encounters should be about instantly murderous groups bumping into each other. It'd be wise to have the encounter statted out in case of combat, yet the violence should grow instead of being assumed. There should be a chance to RP most encounters; win strange friends, earn favors, get weird one-off magic items. Assume as a GM that all monsters and NPCs are up to something other than waiting in a room to kill whatever enters.

A room of zombies ballroom dancing; only becoming hostile if attacked or the party is impolite.
A cave of welcoming kobolds and goblins at their annual swap meet.
A Griffon, or even some demon, teaching a younger one how to hunt animals; is very encouraging.
Have a vampire really want to be understood as a talented banjoist.

#2
Combat Motivations
When an encounter turns violent, choose an objective for the NPCs other than uniform murder.

Have the loot plainly visible when the characters enter, then have the NPCs try to escape with it.
Use subdual damage.
Try to capture.
Have disabled PC's carried off.
Use a fighting retreat to back up past traps, doors to lock, bridges to cut, etc.
Waste NPC turns laughing, taunting, or doing the cabbage-patch.
Have NPCs call for a time-out, lunch, or something to drink.
Steal shoes.
Steal mounts.
Steal animal companions and familiars.

#3
Keep it weird.
It is a world of powerful magic, and magic users on powerful drugs. Not everything needs be meaningful. Even if your party is very accustomed to solving all situations with homicide and homelessness, the players are still human and a little oddity sparks inquisitiveness.

A moonlit glade where perfectly normal owls are stacking themselves as high as they can and then running around.
A giant ant fitted with a saddle, yet missing it's rider, wanders up to the party from a field. It is covered in honey and Halfling laundry.
A procession of thirty Zoog all chained together and in bad shape; they follow the party and beg for food in Aklo.

#4
Magic items.
Try to make every magic item memorable, if not cursed in some way. NPCs should use the treasure that the party will take.

Replace the rule of magic weapons having a 30% chance to glow with instead a preset prestidigitation. Maybe you smell like birthday cake when that uber-gothic greatsword is drawn, maybe your holy avenger must loudly play gnomish pop songs.
Have your Eyes of the Eagle be a five pound unwieldy thing in the vein of an Amerindian ceremonial mask.
Have stat items give tardive dyskinesia.
Have command words be parts of children's songs, or phrases that were to be used in conversation, such as:
"and sometimes Y." - Flaming property of weapon.
"I didn't order the salmon." - Lightning Bolt wand.
"Hold on, lemme find my wallet." - Ring of the Ram

#5
Environment.
Where the fight takes place determines the relative strength of those involved. Play up the movement modes, skill advantages, and environmental abilities off those the party face.

Have fights in knee deep mud.
Have fights in a mangrove, with plenty of balance checks.
Have fights while squeezing through a tight tunnel.
Medium characters have to squeeze when inside a Small environment; this is fun.
Have fights where the party is chained together, or to something else.
Remember to roll for weather.
Sleet, snow, slippery embankments, rainy peaked roofs; these are all good.
A forest fire is CR 6.


A Half-Orc Rogue uses Cleave to Sunder two targets. This Rogue has Surprise Follow-Through.

Surprise Follow-Through (Combat) wrote:

When striking one opponent, you catch its ally off guard.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When using Cleave or Great Cleave, the second foe you attack on your turn is denied its Dexterity bonus against you.

Does Sneak Attack damage get added to the second Sunder?

#1
An attended object uses the creature's Dexterity modifier, which is denied by Surprise Follow-Through.

Surprise Follow-Through (Combat) wrote:

When striking one opponent, you catch its ally off guard.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When using Cleave or Great Cleave, the second foe you attack on your turn is denied its Dexterity bonus against you.
Magic Item Descriptions wrote:
The following descriptions include notes on activation, random generation, and other material. The AC, hardness, hit points, and break DC are given for typical examples of some magic items. The AC assumes that the item is unattended and includes a –5 penalty for the item's effective Dexterity of 0. If a creature holds the item, use the creature's Dexterity modifier in place of the –5 penalty.

#2

An object, like an Aeon, is immune to Critical Hits yet still vulnerable to Precision Damage. Compare an Aeon to an Elemental, then both to objects.
Oddly, the spell Animate Objects converts a thing immune to Critical Hits into a creature that now is subject to them, as a Construct.
Smashing an Object wrote:
Immunities: Objects are immune to nonlethal damage and to critical hits.
Aeon Subtype wrote:

Aeons are a race of neutral outsiders who roam the planes maintaining the balance of reality. Aeons possess the following traits.

Immunity to cold, poison, and critical hits.
Resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10.

Elemental Subtype wrote:

An elemental is a being composed entirely from one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water. An elemental has the following features.

Immunity to bleed, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
Not subject to critical hits or flanking. Does not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack.
Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Elementals not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Elementals are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Elementals do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

#3

As to the "pick out a vital spot" requirement of a Sneak Attack; that requirement seems a matter of being able to view or perceive, whereas the lack of a vital spot is handled in specified immunities. Objects have no immunity to Precision Damage.

I can see the fluff of using Feint to have the opponent commit momentum in a direction that is favorable for your Sunder, or using this feat to catch the shield rim of the next guy when he's turning a direction favorable to the Sunder.

The second guy eats a Sunder, yes?


While there are no combat bonuses from Detect Thoughts, there is an old 3.5 Prestige Class from Complete Warrior that used it as a base and expanded it to be combat applicable.

Mindspy

I always thought it a neat idea.


#1

Skill Unlock - Disguise wrote:

With sufficient ranks in Disguise, you earn the following.

20 Ranks: You can create a disguise as a standard action, or as a full-round action combined with a Bluff check to create a diversion to hide.

Does this Full-Round Action give a disguise and a Diversion, with you then having to find a place to hide with a 5-Foot Step?

Do you no longer have to find a place to hide, with you staying in one spot and suddenly looking like a different person?

#2
In general, does a Distraction include movement with it's Action?
What type of Action is a basic Distraction?

#3
Also how does this work?

Heretic (Inquisitor) wrote:

Judgment (Su)

A heretic gains the following judgment in addition to the normal list of inquisitor judgments.

Escape (Su): Each time the inquisitor using this judgment hits an opponent with a melee or ranged attack, she can use a move action attempt to create a diversion to hide (see the Stealth skill).

Does the Heretic using this Judgement also have to find a hiding place with a 5-Foot Step?

#4
If a Diversion does include movement with it's Action, how does this work?

Street Performer (Bard) wrote:

Quick Change (Ex)

At 5th level, a street performer can don a disguise as a standard action by taking a –5 penalty on his check. He can take 10 on Bluff and Disguise checks and use Bluff to create a diversion to hide as a swift action. He can take 20 on a Bluff or Disguise check once per day, plus one time per six levels beyond 5th.

This ability replaces lore master.

With this Quick Change to create a Diversion with movement, how far would you be able to move with this Swift Action?

After using Quick Change to create a Diversion with movement, would you then be able to take a normal allotment of Actions as long as they don't involve movement?
Are you allowed to use this Swift Action for movement not to find a hiding spot but to move to a target, then Full-Attack?

#5
Is anyone, anywhere, able to cite an explanation of how this whole Distraction ability is supposed to work? It seems Stealth is broken on a fundamental level while this remains unsolved.


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#1

Anzyr wrote:
He explicitly never mentions killing fallen characters. And sees the game as a story where the players succeed. Maybe you should reread it?
Abrisene wrote:

To quote a different game:

Human Occupied Landfill wrote:
If you want the campaign to last -- don't kill off the players. Yes, unless the drama dictates you should for the purpose of the story, it's best to let them keep kickin'. Let them develop into their characters -- torture them all you want, tease them with the scythe -- but if you're going to dice 'em, do it in a way that makes them want to spew epic poetry. (Or whatever). Remember -- f%#$ rules, the play's the thing.

#2

The game does not run itself. That is a CRPG
The game has narrative and characters. Without, it is wargaming.

#3
Success is perspectival. Success is not survival.
In Call of Cthulhu, success may be having the final party member be insane instead of ghoul poo.
In Braunstein, it may be getting your faction's students released from jail, yet dying.

#4
Iv'e had more than one plot involve trying to track down a character's body in order to resurrect it. As well, I've been KO'd more than once, to wake up with no gear yet a new owner.

#5

Abrisene wrote:

The point of playing this, or most any, RPG is to tell the story of how this weird improbable group of characters succeeds.

The GM needs to kick out the crutches of characters, needs to put them in unusual situations, else the players have no real stories of how they overcame.

A litmus test of whether a campaign was good or not, is for how long do the players keep talking about it. The dice inform the narrative; as the narrative is repeated for years after, no dice are involved.

This game makes stories.


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To quote a different game:

Human Occupied Landfill wrote:
If you want the campaign to last -- don't kill off the players. Yes, unless the drama dictates you should for the purpose of the story, it's best to let them keep kickin'. Let them develop into their characters -- torture them all you want, tease them with the scythe -- but if you're going to dice 'em, do it in a way that makes them want to spew epic poetry. (Or whatever). Remember -- f%#$ rules, the play's the thing.

The point of playing this, or most any, RPG is to tell the story of how this weird improbable group of characters succeeds.

The GM needs to kick out the crutches of characters, needs to put them in unusual situations, else the players have no real stories of how they overcame.

Yes, gear should get broken.
Yes, gear should get stolen.
Yes, monsters should steal fallen characters and escape.
Yes, monsters should sell fallen characters.

No, the GM should not grease you in the first round of combat whilst shrugging. They are doing it wrong.


Here are some minor changes as to how some skills interact with each other, and with casting. The goal is to speed things up, add a more tactical approach to combat, and to help Stealth be a valid choice for all characters.

::Stealth and Detection::

*Observer
Any creature that has Line-of-Sight to another creature is an Observer, even if the other creature is Hidden.

*Hidden
A creature that has successfully used Stealth against an Observer is Hidden. A Hidden creature attacking an Off-Guard target has a Bonus +2 to Hit, and the target is Flat-Footed.

*On-Guard
Before an attack is made by a Hidden creature, Observers may choose a target square as where they expect the attack to originate. If the square, or any adjacent square does contain the attacking creature, the defending observer is considered On-Guard to that attack. An Observer with no reason to suspect an attack is always considered Off-Guard.

*Off-Guard
An Observer with no reason to suspect an attack is always considered Off-Guard. Also, an Observer that suspects an attack yet chooses the wrong area, as in determining being On-Guard, is also Off-Guard to that attack. An Off-Guard Observer is Flat-Footed to attacks from Hidden creatures, and the attacker has a Bonus +2 to Hit that Observer.

*Perception Rating
A creature has a Perception Rating equal to their Perception modifier +5.

*Stealth Rating
A creature has a Stealth Rating equal to their Stealth modifier +5.

*Stealth
Stealth is rolled against the highest modified Perception Rating of all Observers. Situations such as distance will modify Perception Ratings in use. Stealth is used to improve the degree of Cover or Concealment granted by the space they are in (Hide), and to prevent Observers from noticing when a creature moves to a different space (Sneak).

*Stealth and Cover (Hide)
Successful use of Stealth improves the degree of Cover granted by the space a creature is in by one step, which lasts until they beginning of the creature's next turn when they may Act again to keep its benefits. The minimum degree of Cover that may be used with Stealth is Partial Cover. It is a Move Action to improve Cover with Stealth, or a Free Action if done with a Move Action that included movement into a square that grants Cover.
Partial -> Cover -> Total Cover -> Improved Cover.

*Stealth and Concealment (Hide)
Successful use of Stealth improves the degree of Concealment granted by the space a creature is in to be Total Concealment, which lasts until they beginning of the creature's next turn when they may Act again to keep its benefits. It is a Move Action to improve Concealment with Stealth, or a Free Action if done with a Move Action that included movement into a square that grants Concealment.

*Stealth and Movement (Sneak)
A Hidden creature that wishes to move to a different square without having an Observer notice, rolls a Stealth check at the most unfavorable point of their movement. A creature that has used a Move Action that included movement to enter a square with Cover or Concealment, makes one Hide check when they enter that square and a second check Sneak check afterwards at their most unfavorable square if they wish to prevent Observers from noticing which square they are in after they entered Cover or Concealment.

*Distraction
Creating a Distraction is a Standard Action of a single Bluff roll opposed by Sense Motive of Observers. If the Bluff check is higher than any Observer's Sense Motive Roll, it is treated as a successful Sneak check. The creature causing the Diversion, or any allied creature, must successfully Hide by the end of the current turn or loose the benefit of the Distraction.

*Sniping
Sniping allows the attacker to never actually leave Stealth, and Observers do not know from which square the attack originated. All targets of a successful Sniping attempt are Off-Guard to these attacks, even if they can guess where the attacks are coming from. Sniping may be used as part of a single attack during the Surprise Round, if the Sniper is already Hidden.

*Active Perception (Search)
A creature may roll their Perception as a Move Action to Search. Search is rolled once against the Stealth Ratings of Hidden creatures. A creature is not Hidden against a Observer who rolled a Search result higher than their Stealth Rating. Successful use of Search also grants a Bonus +5 to Perception Ratings of all allied Observers, including itself, until the beginning of their next turn. This is a Circumstance Bonus.

*Spells and Stealth
A creature takes a penalty to their Perception Rating equal to the Caster Level of the Spell being cast, which lasts until the beginning of their next turn. Casting a spell makes the caster Flat-Footed until the end of its turn.

*Feats
Combat Casting:
You may choose when casting a spell to either get a +4 bonus on concentration checks made to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability when casting on the defensive or while grappled, or to not be Flat-Foot when casting this spell.


Street Performer (Bard) wrote:

Quick Change (Ex)

At 5th level, a street performer can don a disguise as a standard action by taking a –5 penalty on his check. He can take 10 on Bluff and Disguise checks and use Bluff to create a diversion to hide as a swift action. He can take 20 on a Bluff or Disguise check once per day, plus one time per six levels beyond 5th.

This ability replaces lore master.

This power may prove problematic. A Diversion is normally an Action of unspecified type, and may or not include Movement as part of the Diversion Action.

Heretic (Inquisitor) wrote:

Judgment (Su)

A heretic gains the following judgment in addition to the normal list of inquisitor judgments.

Escape (Su): Each time the inquisitor using this judgment hits an opponent with a melee or ranged attack, she can use a move action attempt to create a diversion to hide (see the Stealth skill).

If a Diversion does not include any Movement during it's Action, then the Heretic may only use this Judgement to hide in places within 5 feet, which is underwhelming.

If a Diversion does indeed include Movement, then the Street Performer ability is incredible.
If you discount the Heretic, and have no Movement included in a Diversion, then this ability is one of the best in the game if you've a good speed as it is (Ex) and cannot be countered by magical detection. If your GM allows use of a Diversion to allow others to hide, then so the better.


There's a sadness that after so many years of Pathfinder being out, that they still have yet to have Bluff->Stealth actually work.

As it stands, it is an Action of undetermined type, with nebulous content. The Distraction may or may not itself contain an amount of allowed movement.

Street Performer (Bard) wrote:

Quick Change (Ex)

At 5th level, a street performer can don a disguise as a standard action by taking a –5 penalty on his check. He can take 10 on Bluff and Disguise checks and use Bluff to create a diversion to hide as a swift action. He can take 20 on a Bluff or Disguise check once per day, plus one time per six levels beyond 5th.

This ability replaces lore master.

Heretic (Inquisitor) wrote:

Judgment (Su)

A heretic gains the following judgment in addition to the normal list of inquisitor judgments.

Escape (Su): Each time the inquisitor using this judgment hits an opponent with a melee or ranged attack, she can use a move action attempt to create a diversion to hide (see the Stealth skill).

If the Diversion does not include movement within its Action, then the Heretics ability is unusable; otherwise the Street Performer's version becomes too good.

In the face of such ambiguity, rolling Stealth once you hit the bushes at least works, even if observers know which direction you went.

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I think he may be using concealment as total concealment there.

Option 1: you spend (a standard action?) to make a bluff check and then move to concealment.

Option 2: you move to concealment and make the stealth check.

Option 1 is what the rules spell out. Why on earth would that rule ever exist as an option if option 2 existed?

Option 1 is how you "Batman" your way out. e.g. "WTF. He asks for a coffee, and now is gone?". They can only guess as to where to start looking. Maybe he slipped into a closet, maybe he hunkered behind a potted plant. (Most times Batman is under the desk). It is harder to do, but does great at deterring pursuit.

Option 2 is how you loose a tail in a crowd, bushes, tall grass, etc. They know where to start searching, but not where you are. It is easier to do, but does little to deter pursuit.

Cover and Concealment interfere with observation. If you are out in the open, and want that to be the last place anyone knew where you are, go Bluff. If you are less interested in if people know where you went, and more just want to be unobserved pronto, find some bushes or a crowd.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

You need to break line of sight/observation. Thats the reason for causing the distraction.

Partial cover or concealment doesn't work. Adventurers are not toddlers. They understand object permanance. They might walk into a room and not notice your feet sticking out from under the tapestry. If you walk behind the tapestry though with your feet poking out they're going to notice. You have to go "LOOK A MONKEY!" beat their sense motive, then make a stealth check at a penalty. That system wouldn't be there at all if you could just get a little concealment and stealth.

Unfortunately, this is not true.

LINK

You need the distraction from Bluff if you are not in a square granting Cover or Concealment, yet are within 10 feet of such. This causes observers to not know where you went.

Hopping into some bushes of mere Concealment while pursued and attempting Stealth, has observers loose track of you are yet be aware of where they lost track of you.


Jaunt wrote:

There is no rule that limits archers to 1 quiver equipped at a time.

Of course, there is no point in equipping 2 quivers when I allow them to balance arrow casks on their heads and give meleers free Wounding and Holy.

There also isn't a rule requiring quivers, only that you get a free one everytime you buy 20 arrows; you can have 1000 arrows tucked into your hair and be ready to rock, RAW.

This isn't any sort of game I would take part in.
DnD, and its current incarnations, have always had resource management as a core part of its design. You track ammo, and pause to reload. It's the trade off for not having to run up to something to attack it.

Hell, I only grudgingly agree with Spell Component Pouches. If you can't be arsed to figure out what your spells need and buy/plan accordingly, then being a caster isn't for you. I truly miss the days of 2ndED and when in a seriously tight spot, trying to figure out what you can get done based on what you had on hand.

Not tracking ammo is at best, shockingly lazy.
At worst, it is blatantly cheating the Action economy under a hand-wave of "meh".


Jaunt wrote:
Abrisene: What kind of awful archer only equips 1 quiver at a time? Also, your imitation of archer players is downright insulting. There's no call for that.

Um, every archer? o.O

How many quivers are you allowing a person to have equipped? Acrobatics check to balance a cask of 200 arrows on your head? Archers are not endless arrow machine guns, and trying to hand wave that they have a free +2 value enchantment is terrible cheese. Are you giving melee folk free Wounding or Holy enchantments?

You get 20 arrows each equipped quiver.
When they are gone, it's a Move Action to retrieve another quiver; then it's in hand and not ready for use.
After, I allow another Move Action to equip the quiver. Removing the other is implied.

If you want to play your archer as intended, you place quivers in fall-back positions, and prepare some out already around where you intend to fight. Else, it is finding cover to reload. Ya'know, behaving like an archer.


Tracking arrows -> tracking quivers -> action economy

Not tracking ammunition causes the most powerful martial style to be even more powerful. Oh noes! I must interrupt my 200' Full-Attacks to reload? Knot FARE!

If you want to play an archer and already be very powerful, ffs track ammo. No bonus actions for you.

How to track?
1 - Get a sheet of lined paper.
2 - Put the letter "Q" in the margin at the top left.
3 - In a column, in the margin, under that "Q", write the number "1".
4 - Continue to progress the column by furthering to write more numbers in accordance with how many quivers you've got.
5 - If any of your quivers have weird ammo, mark that next to the quiver number.
6 - Put a token of some sort on the number that relates to your equipped quiver.
7 - As you use ammo, put hash marks after its number for a hit.
8 - As you use ammo, put circles after its number for a miss.
9 - Roll break% for circles, put a hash mark on the circle if failed.
10 - Win


Many thanks for the help and ideas.

I am aware that an uncontrolled fall cannot count as a charge, yet:

Acrobatics wrote:
When you deliberately fall any distance, even as a result of a missed jump, a DC 15 Acrobatics skill check allows you to ignore the first 10 feet fallen, although you still end up prone if you take damage from a fall.

Also:

Talent: Expert Leaper wrote:
Benefit: When making jump checks, the rogue is always considered to have a running start. Also, when the rogue deliberately falls, a DC 15 Acrobatics check allows her to ignore the first 20 feet fallen, instead of the first 10 feet.

If the fall is deliberate, within a safe range, and a successful Acrobatics check is made, you land safely on your feet; how is this fall uncontrolled?

Does the Slow Fall ability of the Monk work for a falling Charge?

Slow Fall wrote:
At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm's reach of a wall can use it to slow his descent. When first gaining this ability, he takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk's ability to slow his fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with his monk level until at 20th level he can use a nearby wall to slow his descent and fall any distance without harm.

What of Tumbling Descent from the Rogue Archetype: Roof Runner?

Tumbling Descent wrote:
At 2nd level, a roof runner can use her Acrobatics skill to attempt a rapid descent from a rooftop or another surface, ricocheting against another surface and then diving through an opening (such as a balcony or window) directly below. So long as she has at least two surfaces no farther than 10 feet apart to bounce against, she can ricochet her body back from one to the next, descending great distances with a single check. The DC is 10 + 5 for every additional 10-foot increment descended beyond the initial 10 feet dropped. If she fails, she falls the full distance.

This Talent doesn't seem to treat the distance as falling at all, unless the roll is failed. While it would likely ruin Stealth, the implied horizontal movement during the descent isn't counted against a character's movement, so may it count as traversing a straight line for a Charge?

Yet more,

Leopard (Cat, Great) wrote:
The statistics presented here can describe any feline of similar size, such as jaguars, panthers, and mountain lions—what differentiates these big cats from the similarly sized cheetah is primarily their habitats—leopards and their kin prefer to hunt at night and ambush their prey from above, pouncing down from trees or high rocks.

How does the Leopard achieve it's Pounce in this way, mechanically? If the fall is controlled, must a character jump 10 feet horizontally for this to work?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I am trying to design an encounter, and want to be sure of all the rules interactions.

The idea is to have Goblins in the canopy of a heavily forested area harassing the party below.

Goblins: Tree Runner, Cave Crawler.

Warrior: Hold ropes tied to other Goblins. Move Action to Haul (Climb) upwards, Standard Action to use "Lead From the Back".

Rogue: Has ropes tied to self and held by others and is Hauled (Climb) back into the canopy. Uses "Death from Above" and has both Rogue Archetypes of Roof Runner and Scout.

Assuming Medium sized Targets:
1) Does using a rope to Haul a load upwards use a Move Action?
2) When using a rope to Haul a load upwards, is there a check?
3) How far may a load be raised after a single Action?
4) How do the "Same Source" rules interact with having multiple Goblins use "Lead From the Back"?
5) If a character deliberately jumps down a height of at least 10 feet above the height of the Target, may it count as a Charge?
5A) If allowed, and the character landed in the same square as the Target, is it true that the character would both Provoke for entering the square, and also be shunted to the nearest adjacent empty square?
5B) If allowed, may an empty square adjacent to the Target be allowed for landing?
5i) If allowed, does the attack take place while the character is still 5 feet off the ground, with 5 feet of falling after the Charge is resolved?
6) If the Warriors start swinging the Rogue around in a circle, does that movement Provoke, and does it count against the movement of the Rogue?

This tactic is not expected to be highly effective, just unusual; catastrophic failure is expected.


On a critical hit, the sword plays "Pump Up the Jam", in Goblin, in a continuous loop and at an intolerable volume for the next 24 hours. (Or, use song of choice. Something to "shoulder dance" to, yet quickly becomes tiresome would be what to aim for).

This applies a -10 modifier to all Perception and Concentration checks within 30 feet. The same penalty applies to any task that requires fine motor skill or close attention, including Craft checks.

Goblins receive no penalty and enjoy a +1 to Hit, and +1 to all Saves as a Morale bonus.

No creatures, excepting Goblins, attempting to rest within 100 feet of the sword are able to gain the benefits of rest. One foot of wood, six inches of stone, or 3 inches of metal reduce this radius to 10 feet.

As you are in a Demon involved game, switch it to Demon instead of Goblin. If the curse activates in combat with Demons, have all Demons in range spend their next turns doing the cabbage-patch while commenting their feelings regarding their jam, then continue per normal. They, slightly buffed yet having lost an action, while the party sorts through their various WTFs.


In our home game, Combat Expertise was changed to allow Total Defense as an Immediate Action which carried through to the end of the character's next turn.

After one guy started using it to save himself from big hits, the others fell in love.


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Mandatory YouTube Link


A GM must remember that when the group sits down at the table, it is to tell the story of how these characters succeed. All tension, reward, and even character death, is to further that aim. If the group decides to ditch the carefully crafted grimdark plot in order to explore the dreams of being an epic fantasy boy band, the GM must help keep it interesting to the players instead of shutting them down.

Keeping it interesting... I've been made to stand on a table at a con and sing/dance "I'm a little teapot" to save my character. Players were made to draw "progress reports" for their circus goblins by using a crayon in their offhand. The players of a barbarian Dwarf party had to stand up and act out their adventures in charades to a tribe of lizardfolk. I cannot fail to remember these, in the face of so many bland throw-away games.

Roleplaying is more than what you choose to say at the table. It is also what your GM has the player do; to stand up from the table.

In my experience, it is not the feedback from player to GM that is most important. It is the reaction a player receives when they talk about the game to one who was not at the table. The moment when you realize that another has envy for your frustrations as a player, is golden. That is when having four, three hour sessions of being tied to a tree naked for six months in game, with all the gear you can chew off said tree, realizes its worth.


In our games, I took to having Dragons exhibit more and more extreme OCD traits as they age, yet only upon a single subject. I'd have the horde of one be an exhaustive collection of, and accompanying library on the study and history, of barrels. Another may be obsessed with clergy to the point of massing a library, collecting props and magic items, or even keeping a few for study. My intent was to spread out the wealth of a horde into not a readily salable format, as well to add to the motivations of dragons and why they would interact with the world.

It was well received.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 2 people marked this as a favorite.

Blur has no interaction with Stealth.

Opponents that cannot see the subject ignore the spell's effect (though fighting an unseen opponent carries penalties of its own).
LINK

Stealth into your own Blur? Cool, can't be seen. Oops, Blur's effects now ignored. Now seen.

Using Bluff in order to "Create a Diversion to Hide" has no listed Action, though it would most likely be a Standard Action. Also, it does not note whether the Action includes movement.
The Heretic's (Inquisitor) Judgement:Escape changes it to a Move Action after an attack. It's only usable if movement is included in the Diversion, or very poor if a 5-Foot Step is expected.
The Street Performer's (Bard) ability Quick Changes allows a Diversion as a Swift Action. If a Diversion includes movement, then this is very powerful.


Total Cover or Total Concealment is not required in order to enter stealth whilst observed.

SOURCE

Using Bluff to "Create a Diversion to Hide" does not have a listed Action, although it should probably be a Standard Action. Nor does it state whether movement is included in it's use.
The Heretic(Inquisitor) ability to Smite:Escape changes this to a Move Action following an Attack. Only usable if movement is included.
The Street Performer(Bard) ability Quick Change changes this to a Swift Action, and if movement is included, this is very powerful.


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Light Generation: Fully 30% of magic weapons shed light equivalent to a light spell. These glowing weapons are quite obviously magical. Such a weapon can't be concealed when drawn, nor can its light be shut off. Some of the specific weapons detailed below always or never glow, as defined in their descriptions.

LINK

We had a jerk/fun GM that started using other effects of equivalent power in place of boring old light. This started with a munchkin Paladin that kept bothering him for a holy avenger; he eventually found one that played "Pump Up the Jam" at an uncomfortable volume; much frowning ensued. Good times.


Abjuration: Chalk, Mirror, Salt

Conjuration: Circles (People holding hands, drawn, arranged)
Calling: Armor, Clothing
Creation: Jewelry, Scales, Smoke
Healing: Smoke, Song
Summoning: Diagrams within a circle
Teleportation: Blanket, Cape, Cloak

Divination: Animal Remains, Food Remains, Pendulum, Writing Implements
Scrying: Blindfold, Crystal Ball

Enchantment: Herbs, Jewelry
Charm: Dolls, Figurines, Pantomime

Evocation: Pointing Stick, Weapons

Illusion: Pantomime
Figment: Lens
Glamer: Feather, Hat, Scarf
Pattern: Prism
Phantasm: Drawing, Painting
Shadow: Candle, Lantern, Torch

Necromancy: Coins, Dice, Dishes, Paint

Transmutation: Trade Tools, Scales
Polymorph: Mask, Paint


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Faelyn wrote:
Action is faster than reaction. An armed subject can lift a weapon from their side, aim, and fire faster than you can recognize the action, process it, and then respond. This is a scientifically proven fact... If you guys are interested in this type of thing, check out This Website for a wealth of knowledge on the subject, it's a very interesting field. Perhaps it might make you think about situations like this a little differently. Or maybe not, but that's your decision.

Science isn't with you on that: The quick and the dead: when reaction beats intention

Further reading:
Changing the “When” and “What” of Intended Actions
and
Internally generated and externally triggered actions are physically distinct and independently controlled (Paywall)


This version has confusing language as to whether a Distraction is needed when attempting to enter Stealth while Observed.

There should be around four levels of defined awareness.

Unaware - Has no awareness of anything amiss or hidden.

Presence - Suspicion of something amiss or hidden.

Direction - Confirmation of something amiss or hidden, and which direction of movement would bring you closer or farther.

Pinpoint - Knowledge of which square a thing is in.

Entering Stealth while Observed:

An Observer must be at least 10 feet away to be affected by an Observed Stealth attempt.

Concealment - Impossible
Total Concealment - Direction
*Concealed Stealth is treated as having Total Concealment, blocking Line of Sight yet not Line of Effect from potential Observers.

Cover - Direction
Total Cover - Direction
*Covered Stealth is treated as having Total Cover, blocking both Line of Sight and Line of Effect from potential Observers and also the creature using Stealth. (Bugs Bunny posing in exactly the same shape of a cactus, while hiding behind said cactus).

Covered Stealth is generally superior to Concealed Stealth. If a Square offers both Concealment and Cover, the creature using Stealth my elect, when the check is made, to use either or both sources as the basis of their Stealth.

Cover itself may be used as Concealment or Cover whenever a Stealth check is made. (Sniping behind some rocks, or hunkering behind the same rocks).

Distraction should be further defined with an Action type, whether or not someone can make use of a Distraction from another creature, and both Range and Duration. It should cause Observed Stealth attempts to allow Observers to know only the Presence of the creature using Stealth, and allow Observed Stealth attempts within ten feet of an Observer.

Much like Damage forces penalties to Concentration checks, it should also force penalties to Perception checks. Spell casting should also force a penalty equal to the level of the Spell.

Sniping should have rules for both the Surprise Round and Readied Actions; or leave it as is and have a Rogue Talent, Feat, or something allow the Stealth check.

Casting a Spell with Somatic Components should force the caster Flat Footed during casting, with the option to abandon the spell when an attack roll is made against the caster and prevent themselves from being Flat Footed. A caster does not have this option against attacks from an enemy that is not Pinpointed.


No humans

Elf - LN - Organized unto absurdity. Should have a sight penalty in dark/dim light, a bonus in lit areas. Prefer high elevations.

Orc - TN - Liberated elven slaves. Newly founded nation-state. Like open areas.

Grippli - TN - Conquered and marginalized by dwarves. Live near dwarves, or drow.

Goblin - CN - Fringe dwellers and opportunists. Live anywhere/everywhere.

Drow - CN - Freedom obsessed, live on surface. Exist in small family groups. Prefer areas with lots of cover.

Dwarf - LN - Organized, profiteering, rowdy. Surface cities based around mining operations.

Halfling - TN - Urban, clan based. Large, yet disorganized groups. Prefer old or abandoned cities.


Our group preferred "theme" games that had some restriction on race or class to both tie the group to the setting, and also simply as a challenge.

We've had:

Party of Dwarven Barbarians. Group worked for an NPC transmuter that wanted samples of exotic food and drink from far and dangerous places to replicate for sale. It was our longest and most fondly remembered campaign. Highlights include proving adulthood to a lizardman tribe by being tethered to a tree, disallowed from touching the ground, and having to wait (roll random encounters) until they could get a horn from some lizard. They were up there with no gear except for gnawed together stickmail and crappy spears for two years. Afterwards I had the *players* pantomime out their adventures, as was custom of the lizardmen tribe, whenever they would visit.

Party of Dwarves. The monk stole the show with his explanation of monks in the Dwarven world. It was a delightful combo of the shaolin monks from the Kung Fu tv show, and Iron Chef.

Party of Bards. We'd been watching Metalocalypse, and had a great short campaign that subverted the normal D&D&P business model of "B&E, murder, profit" and turned it to "B&E, rock out, depand payment from a bewildered vampire/owlbear/otyugh/etc, wreck house if refused, profit".

Party of Goblin Barbarians. Circus goblins that were part of a strong-man act with a Bugbear that was the main part of their act. When he went missing, they went to find him armed only with a royal pardon (for being goblins) and profound ignorance. They had to give progress reports back to the circus in the form of enchanted stationary that would fly letters to the recipient. I've a stack of them somewhere, kept as I disallowed words and insisted the players draw it out with their non-dominant hand. F'n hilarious. They would subdual brawl to pick the direction of travel, or settle anything really; the losers would simply wake up in a new place.

Party of Rogues. Our long standing campaign world has about half the world as continuous urban sprawl. Weird rogue guild/cults abound. With house-ruled deadly smog and acid rain, everyone that wasn't noble kept their faces covered. It was a very claustrophobic and paranoid campaign; it also was the only time multiple players had confessed to how close they were to selling out or abandoning the party when games were done.


I've found it odd that only Acrobatics offers upgrades once possessing a certain number of Ranks; that being the bonus to Fighting Defensively and Total Defense at Rank 3. Maybe those bonuses should be extrapolated further, and explored in other skills? My thought is to limit these Skill Bonuses to only those that have the Skill listed as an actual Class Skill. This may allow Classes that do have a lot of Class Skills available to have utility that cannot as easily be replaced with Spells.

This is just a Copy/Paste of what's been worked on, and is in no way complete.

The format includes what I consider to be themes of each skill.

================================
===== Changes to Skills =====
================================

Acrobatics: Fighting Defensively, Total Defense, Falling, Balance

3 Defensive +1/+2

6 Fall 15'
Balance = Not Flat Footed

9 Total Defense: Immediate + Next Round

12 Defensive +2/+4

15 Fall 20', Not Prone

18 Total Defense: Keep AoO

**********
Appraise: Determine Value, Determine Magic, Purchase Limit

3 Item: ID Magic Abilities (Takes Hour)

6 Purchase Limit +1

9 Item: Normal = Swift within 10'

12 Item: ID Magic Commands (Takes Hour)
Item: ID Magic Abilities (Swift)

15 Appraise Horde: Auto
Purchase Limit +2

18 Item: Bypass Magic Obscurement

**********
Bluff: Lie, Feint, Distraction (Standard), Secret Message

3 Distraction: For Allies

6 Secret: Normal Time

9 Feint: Target + Adjacent

12 Distraction: Swift

15 Secret: Half Time

18 Feint: All

**********
Climb: Accelerated, Catch, Handholds, Haul (1/4 Speed)

3 Haul: 1/2 Speed

6 Handholds: Full-Round

9 Catch: +5
Normal Speed: Not Dexless

12 Haul: Full Speed

15 Handholds: Standard

18 Catch: +10
Accelerated: Not Dexless

**********
Heal: First Aid, Long-Term, Wounds, Deadly, Poison, Disease

3 First Aid: +Wis HP

6 Deadly: +1/Day

9 Poi/Dis: Roll Twice, Take Highest

12 Deadly: +Con (Target)

15 Deadly: +2/Day

18 Poi/Dis: Roll Twice, Use Both

**********
Linguistics: Forgeries, Decipher, Saves

3 Decipher: Spoken (Listen)

6 Save +1 vs Scrolls, Verbal Spells

9 Decipher: Spoken (Speak)

12 Save +2 vs Scrolls, Verbal Spells

15 Decipher: 1 Full-Round

18 Save +3 vs Scrolls, Verbal Spells

**********
Perception: Search, vsSniping, Asleep

3 Asleep: +5

6 vsSniping: +5

9 Search: Swift

12 Asleep: +10

15 vsSniping: +10

18 Search: +5

**********
Sense Motive: Hunch, Sense Enchantment, Assess Group

3 Assess Group: 1 min, DC 20 + Average HD; Anticipate Starting Attitude

6 Sense Enchant: Detect "You" Targets (Spellcraft ID)

9 Assess Group: Initiative +2 (For Group = Full Round)

12 Hunch:

15 Assess Group: Initiative +4 (For Group = Full Round)

18 Sense Enchant: Detect All Buff/Debuff (Spellcraft ID)

**********
Spellcraft: ID Spells, Learn Spell, Prepare Borrowed, Saves, Concentration

3 vSchool +1

6 Concentration: +1

9 Learn Spell: Retry 1 day

12 vSchool +2

15 Concentration: +2

18 ID Spells: Roll Twice

**********
Swim: Combat, Speed, Fatigue, Dive, Accellerate

3 Dive:

6 Combat: Allow Standard

9 Accellerated Swim: -5

12

15 Combat: Allow Full

18


2 people marked this as a favorite.

When searching for names, I have found this to be a fantastic resource:

Names (for uh, dogs)

I am partial to names taken from Gnostic theology; these among others, may be suitable for a female death deity:

Armozel: First of the Four Archangelic Lights. Aeon of Grace, Ruler of grace, truth and form.

Athoth: “The reaper.” Ruler of Saturn. Ruler of Saturday. Has a sheep’s face.

Nenentophni: Ruling Demon of “grief” passion. Bearer of envy, jealousy, distress, trouble, pain, etc.

Ouriel: One of the seven Ruling Authorities of the Body’s Activity.


I believe it was a mistake to -not- have every class be MAD. There should be class features that support most stats, with individual character allocations be what determines which abilities to emphasize. I believe that a lot of class disparity arises from some classes having most, if not all, of their class features rely on a single stat.

Actual ranks in Skills that are also Class Skills should come with tangential benefits similar to how Acrobatics at Rank 3 gives Fighting Defensively a +1 Bonus, and Total Defense a +2 Bonus. At higher ranks, those should improve or unlock other things such as being able to enter Total Defense as an Immediate Action. Other Skills should allow their own bonuses. Sense Motive could allow being able to determine motivations and Starting Attitudes of groups that are studied at around Rank 3, with bonuses to Initiative for your party when engaging those groups at Ranks 9 and 15.

These bonuses would be most plentiful for the Rogue, with their large list of Class Skills combined with their high rate of Skills/Level.

Rogues should also have access to Talents that are Su in nature and emulate Spells, although with caveats. Perhaps an Advanced Talent that requires the Rogue to be both in an Urban environment and in a crowd of at least 10 people for each person that is to be teleported to another Urban environment. The catch is that you can choose the destination environment but you arrive in the largest crowd (wherever that is), with your group disguised as appropriate for wherever you land. The disguises drop for each person when they are hostile or are unobserved be anyone that did not travel this way with them.

I believe that after a certain point, every Class should have access to SPL/Su powers. A typical adventurer winds up having magic used on them every day, if not several times each day. That should give them cancer if not weird abilities.

In summary:

1 - Every Class should be MAD. This can only be fixed by changing how other classes function.

2 - Skills ranks in Class Skills should grant bonuses and uses besides a +3 to your total.

3 - Rogues, and Fighters, should start developing variants of Spells at some point in their career.


The task of summarizing the Stealth rules is impossible as the rules have gaps and conflicts. If you may want to include those for how to enter Stealth while observed, yet without special Class Abilities:

Stealth Skill wrote:
If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Stealth Skill wrote:

Creating a Diversion to Hide

You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.

Note: The Action to do this is undefined. When the Action is successful, what is exactly gained is also undefined.

There are two Classes that I am aware of that modify this action. How each one interacts with the undefined Creating a Diversion to Hide Action creates oddities:

Heretic(Inquisitor 1) - Judgement(Escape) allows Diversion as a Move Action, but requires a Standard to use.

Street Performer(Bard 5) - Quick Change allows Diversion as a Swift Action.

It seems that RAW, the Heretic has but a 5'Step to find Cover/Concealment while making a Stealth check. If the Heretic is allowed actual movement from the Move Action to create a Diversion, then the Street Performer would also be granted movement from its Swift Action to do the same. In this second case, how much movement is expected from a Diversion? Would the Street Performer retain their Move Action, but be denied being able to use it for movement; or would it be extra movement?

Being able to answer these questions informs how to adjudicate Creating a Diversion to Hide for those that do not have any ability to modify its use. It needs be FAQed.


This recently came up in another thread.
LINK

Creating a Diversion to Hide:
Normal - Unknown Action
Heretic (Inquisitor) - Move Action, after Judgement(Escape)
Street Performer (Bard) - Swift Action

Heretic:
Standard - Judgement(Escape)
Move - Diversion
Remainder - Swift, 5'Step

Street Performer:
Swift - Diversion
Remainder - Standard, Move; or Full-Round, 5'Step

In order for the Heretic to use the Judgement(Escape) ability at all, they would need to use a 5'Step to find Cover/Concealment, making a Stealth roll while doing so.


The wording is near identical between the Heretic and Street Performer. Creating a Diversion is not the same as making use of that Diversion, or the Street Performer version is broken.

My guess is that different authors had different understandings of how "Creating a Diversion to Hide" works, both in its Action and effect.

This is why it should be FAQed.

I would imagine that all the Stealth using players would be clamoring for clarification, as the ability to re-enter Stealth during combat is highly important for Stealth utility. The lack of prior discussion on this point, or more voices here, is surprising.

Where are all the big-brained rules nerds when you need em?


Stealth

Stealth Skill wrote:

Action

Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Stealth is part of movement, not a part of any Move Action.

Heretic:
Standard - Judgement (Escape)
Move - Diversion
All the Heretic has left is a Swift, and a 5-Foot-Step.

I guess that 5 feet had best be enough to find cover/concealment for it's ability to work.


Speaker for the Dead wrote:

Stealth isn't normally an action of itself but is rolled as part of a move action. I think it would be;

Normal: Diversion (standard), stealth (as part of a move action)
"Look over there!", scurry's under the nearest bush.

Heretic, Judgment: (Each time the inquisitor using this judgment hits an opponent with a melee or ranged attack, she can use a move action attempt to create a diversion to hide). Attack (standard action), Diversion (as a move and stealth after a successful attack)
"Have at thee!" (hits opponent with weapon), scurry's under nearest bush.

Street Performer: (use Bluff to create a diversion to hide as a swift action.) Diversion (swift), stealth (as part of a move action), standard action left.
"Look over there!", scurry's around to opponents blind side, Pulls down opponents pants.

Why do you have the Heretic getting movement and stealth when creating a Diversion, yet the Street performer doesn't?

Or, are you having the Heretic allowed a Diversion as a Free Action?


Unfortunately that doesn't address the issue of what a Diversion entails.

Normal:
Standard - Diversion
Move - Get to cover/concealment, roll stealth

Heretic:
Standard - Judgement (Escape)
Move - Diversion
Can make a Diversion, but can't move to cover/concealment to gain stealth? This forces the Heretic's ability to have no use.

Street Performer:
Swift - Diversion
Move - Get to cover/concealment, roll stealth
Now has a Standard Action left?

If the Diversion Action itself includes the "While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind" portion of it's write-up, how much movement is allowed, and is it extra movement?

Normal:
Standard - Diversion, move X to cover concealment, roll stealth.
Has a Move and Swift left over?

Heretic:
Standard - Judgement (Escape)
Move - Diversion, move X to cover/concealment, roll stealth.
At least now the ability isn't broken entirely.

Street Performer:
Swift - Diversion, move X to cover concealment, roll stealth.
Yet now the Street Performer has a Full-Round of Actions left, sans Swift, with bonus movement allowed from using but a Swift. This seems incredibly powerful. Enough so that my gut says it must be in error.

If a Distraction does not include movement, then the Heretic is broken, if it does include movement, then the Street Performer's use is OP.

As a side note:
Something I find interesting is that a character cannot create a distraction for another to use, and there is no minimum distance that needs to be gained ala the 10' minimum needed by sniping. Other than those, this action seems horribly under thought and broken.

Please FAQ.


Nobody knows how this works, or wants it FAQed?


4 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Stealth Skill

Stealth Skill wrote:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Stealth Skill wrote:

Creating a Diversion to Hide

You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you.

Street Performer

Street Performer wrote:

Quick Change (Ex)

At 5th level, a street performer can don a disguise as a standard action by taking a –5 penalty on his check. He can take 10 on Bluff and Disguise checks and use Bluff to create a diversion to hide as a swift action. He can take 20 on a Bluff or Disguise check once per day, plus one time per six levels beyond 5th.

This ability replaces lore master.

Heretic

Heretic wrote:

Judgment (Su)

A heretic gains the following judgment in addition to the normal list of inquisitor judgments.

Escape (Su): Each time the inquisitor using this judgment hits an opponent with a melee or ranged attack, she can use a move action attempt to create a diversion to hide (see the Stealth skill).

What action is "Creating a Diversion to Hide", and what all is allowed? Is it's action only the diversion, and another action is used to move and hide? Does a diversion action include stealth in it's use on that action?

A Heretic hits with a judgement (Standard) and then creates a diversion to hide (Move), does the Heretic get stealth only if they already have Cover/Concealment? Do they gain no stealth that round, but can make the stealth check the next round? How does this work?

If the Heretic gains steath when using a move action, does the Street Performer gain stealth when doing the same action as a swift? Would the Street Performer have up to a full round of actions (minus that swift) left?

My intention is to make a Halfling Filcher that withdraws after Sleight of Hand checks using Fast Getaway. I'd like to enter stealth doing this.

Please FAQ

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