Goblin Squad Member
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The crowdforging process would do well not to buy into the fallacy either and to use a system other than true democracy which will inevitably produce a tyranny of the majority every time.
Good argumentation, and the crowdforging process by proxy, should also have nothing whatsoever to do with people's individual merits, as you are suggesting it should with your posts. We don't need to whip 'em out to determine whether an idea has merit, the idea should be able to stand on its own.
Saying "these games have translatable skills" is just fine with me. You should then tell us what those skills are and how they translate. You should not bring up your PvP pedigree, as it is irrelevant. And you definitely shouldn't attack someone else's argument by attacking their PvP pedigree.
For the record, I agree that going with a simple true democracy for design decisions is not likely to result in a quality game, and most definitely not an original one.
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Yeah, I never said a syllable about just obeying the masses. I said it was crucial to listen. Bringing up your "PvP pedigree" is practically a fallacy in and of itself when used in that manner—it's purely a way to stop someone talking by making them self-conscious about whether or not they're experienced enough to be "allowed" in the conversation.
Speaking as someone with very, very little PvP experience outside of TF2 and Runescape, I have no interest in being locked out of these discussions, or having my opinions indirectly derided. You should not be bringing this stuff up in any civil dispute. To put it bluntly, it's rude.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One does not convey years of experience and the intricacies of Open World PvP within a single post. I have already outlined some of the ideas and Decius has asserted that they aren't relevant.
The true proof will be when we get into the game and he and the majority of TSV are stumbling around like blind men trying to learn how to deal with all the new factors being heaped upon them while those of us with extensive Open World PvP experience hit the ground running because the environment feels natural to us.
I've eased naturally into every Open World PvP title I've played since Freelancer, and it's only become more natural the more titles I've played, so I know I'm right.
Others can choose to heed it or ignore that as you will. Their opinion does not change the fact that I'm right.
I guess they'll keep that in mind. Just as long as you ain't snobby about it. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess they'll keep that in mind. Just as long as you ain't snobby about it. ;)
They would be wise to keep it in mind if I did so while cursing their ancestors and screaming profanities at whatever power (or lacktherof) they worship because the tone in which a message is conveyed does not effect the truth of it. ;)
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Perhaps it doesn't. It's not so much a matter of proving yourself right, though, as it is just not being a dick. Humans before games, y'know?
I'd drop the ";)", but I don't think we are using the emoticon sincerely and it is going to turn into a ">:O" if we don't treat it with respect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's related to what you said. You seemed to be implying that crowdforging means every voice has equal value even if they have no clue what they are talking about.
I'm stating that I sure as heck hope that doesn't end up being the case because if it is this game won't be going very far.
I will dismiss the opinion of anyone who can't back it up with relevant experience and facts. GW would be wise to do the same.
This post in particular is what I'm talking about. I don't really care how you compare to TSV when we get in-game, and wasn't talking about that. Your post here indicates you believe your voice in the crowdforging process holds more merit because you believe yourself more of an expert than someone else. My point is that your voice does not matter any more or less for that reason. Your voice matters more or less based upon how solid and realistic your ideas are on the subject being crowdforged, and outside factors such as experience do not factor in.
The earlier post where you said (snipped for relevant section, sorry in advance)
I think the lessons described by Ath can be learned anywhere. The things that come more specifically from titles like EVE and Darkfall is knowing things like when it's worth it to press an attack, and when it's not. What's too valuable to be worth wearing into battle and what's going to give you enough of an edge to be worth the extra investment and therefore risk. How to effectively use your forces to accomplish a given task. How certain abilities become more or less effective in an Open World format than an arena etc.
was fantastic. You gave specific examples of things you can learn from experience in other Open World PvP MMO's. The posts where you attack others because you think them less an expert than you are less fantastic.
If you can't say anything to his argument itself, it is better to just agree to disagree.
In a completely unrelated topic, sorry to those Silent this thread is dedicated to; I'm fueling drama here which is likely causing more of you to remain Silent, and that saddens me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Someone with vast experience at chess and themepark games is just as viable an authority on decisions for a territory game like this.
Oh really? I look forward to seeing you put those assumptions into practice.
Do you know how to effectively use your forces between sieges? Do you know how to avoid letting the enemy crush your spirits before the battle ever happens? Do you you know how to crush your enemy's spirits? Do you know how to command dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of players in a time sensitive battle as opposed to pieces on a chessboard? Do you have a good idea as to what information should be deemed sensitive and what shouldn't and who should be privileged to the information? Do you know the difference between a build that can wreak havoc in solo Open World PvP vs. team Open World PvP vs. small group point defense vs. massive army city defense? Do you know why arena PvP is completely different from Open World PvP?
Come on chessmaster. Lets see how well you do.
Or how to manage big group boredom in between major conflicts?
Managing boredom? Clearly you've never played chess. ;P
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Goblin Squad Member
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And hence your economy grinds down and your enemies pull ahead and have better equipment and more of it. Constant combat isn't always the right answer.Or how to manage big group boredom in between major conflicts?Well that one is simple. Eliminate the between. ;)
So it would seem until you realize that without conflict many of your PvPers simply stop logging in to play. You don't want too much conflict at a time but if you are ever completely without combat you are wasting potential.
That is why our group in Freelancer was the richest on the server despite not being the largest and being almost constantly at war with at least 1 one other faction at all times. I learned to manage the level of conflict that was desirable for our group.
Another thing learned from experience.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unfortunately, Andius spouting his superiority over the rest of us has become far to common and expected even before he left TEO.
I make no apologies. The only person more qualified to speak on such matters either group ever had was Solemor, and I assigned great value to the advice he gave me.
Post-Solemor discussing matters of strategy in TEO / TSV was like being the only engineer in a room of kids who like to play with legos and having them expect you to care about their opinions.
Might be rude not to, but there is only so much having to argue your points with people who clearly know less than you that you can take. Sometimes the truth is harsh.
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*Surreptitiously places a lego block in Andius's path*
:)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well said thank you...this will be what separates the long term winners from the short term.Or how to manage big group boredom in between major conflicts?
Let me tell you one thing, mister!
Oh wait, that was a thank you.
Um, you are very welcome?
:)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, if you'd ever studied chess, you'd know that it's all risk vs. reward and strategy, as is everything you just listed. Then again, you've missed the more important practices of mastering chess, but I'll let you study up on that yourself, or fail to.
Then again, chess takes patience and willingness to accept defeat and learn from it. You don't get anything from it if you just quit when you don't get your way, which may explain why you disregard it so easily.
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It will be delicious
When I get fishes.
Shut up. My line is better.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you know how to effectively use your forces between sieges?
Something we aren't likely to see implemented this year if even next year. Plenty of time for people to learn.
Do you know how to avoid letting the enemy crush your spirits before the battle ever happens?
/IGNORE ?
Do you you know how to crush your enemy's spirits?
/MOON ?
Do you know how to command dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of players in a time sensitive battle as opposed to pieces on a chessboard?
Crank my output up on Vent and Scream "KILL ANDIUS" might work.
Do you have a good idea as to what information should be deemed sensitive and what shouldn't and who should be privileged to the information?
I would have thought the fact that you are an arrogant you know what would have been something you might have considered sensitive and not felt so obliged to share with everyone on the forums. Obviously I am worng on that so I guess I fail this one :-(
Do you know the difference between a build that can wreak havoc in solo Open World PvP vs. team Open World PvP vs. small group point defense vs. massive army city defense? Do you know why arena PvP is completely different from Open World PvP?
Do you know that we actually know little or nothing about how combat will actually work. What skills will be in the game. What equipment will be in the game. What keywords and how they work will be in the game. Weather any of the skills and abilities for the builds your talking about will even work or exist?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, if you'd ever studied chess, you'd know that it's all risk vs. reward and strategy, as is everything you just listed. Then again, you've missed the more important practices of mastering chess, but I'll let you study up on that yourself, or fail to.
Then again, chess takes patience and willingness to accept defeat and learn from it. You don't get anything from it if you just quit when you don't get your way, which may explain why you disregard it so easily.
I understand chess. I'm actually pretty good at it for the amount of time I devote to it.
You make a lot of assumptions about me but they are wrong. You know how I beat the largest group on our server starting with a group of just 3 members and no experience in these kind of games? Persistence, dedication, and learning from my mistakes.
But in my time in that game I was allied and at war with almost every major group on the server at one point in time.
You mistake my quitting TEO as a lack of dedication to my goals. You know how you can tell that isn't the case? The fact the I'm still here. I have a lack of dedication to any group not useful in helping me reach my goals. TEO and TSV proved they were not, nor is it likely they will be any time again in the near future so I quit. They also pissed me off, so now I'm your enemy.
If I want you on my side again I'll simply ask and you'll probably take me back. Why? Because by then (if you still exist) you'll have seen what I'm capable of in-game and you'll realize I'm a dangerous enough man that if I want to ally with you, you should probably just accept my help. How do you think I ended up allied to so many of my former enemies in Freelancer?
Having a reputation for winning.
learning from my mistakes.
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learning from my mistakes.
Apparently the USA is immune to this form or terrorism now, unavailable in my area. At least the NSA is doing SOMETHING.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You know how I beat the largest group on our server starting with a group of just 3 members and no experience in these kind of games?
A game with a 100 person cap is hardly awe inspiring.
If I want you on my side again I'll simply ask and you'll probably take me back.
Not a chance. You see, you sold your integrity, honor, and values. Some of us think that those qualities are important in a leader and comrade.
Um.
Did you know the NSA just declared war on Mexico? Here's the article.
...
Why aren't you clicking it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Um.
Did you know the NSA just declared war on Mexico? Here's the article.
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Why aren't you clicking it.
We've been at war with Mexico and losing badly for years. Look up the "war on drugs" sometime.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A game with a 100 person cap is hardly awe inspiring.
You know how I beat the largest group on our server starting with a group of just 3 members and no experience in these kind of games?
Your current "military steward" counts Wurm Online as relevant PvP experience. The average population on any given Wurm PvP server isn't any larger than the Freelancer server I played on.
Also Discovery Server has a 250 man cap last time I checked, so whoever gave you that info doesn't know what they are talking about.
The principles still apply and it isn't as though I haven't played larger games since then.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On top of that, getting pissed off = enemy now, is quite possibly the least logical reason for making enemies. You see, a chess player would call that a high risk, no reward situation.
Killing you will be fun. There is plenty of reward.
Also if you weren't keeping up at the game at the time of my leaving TEO you may have missed me coming into this game, founding it by myself, and then building it into the largest group in the game. My only failure was handing over leadership to Lifedragn. I knew he was inexperienced and unqualified but he did pretend like he was going to listen to my advice, and I have too much going on RL to lead a group TEO's size. In a way I was undone by my own success, which is why I've gone back to an intentionally selective recruitment process.
I bet a lot of people are looking forward to "hashing out some disagreements" when EE begins. ^-^
Freevale already has plans for me and a dunking stool.
They assure me it's for charity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your reputation here is not for...winning.
Sorry, to be fair the current TEO is a win, it is hard to rationally refute that...and on many levels Andius deserves some credit for making it what it is today.
EDIT: Oop, he ninja edited while I was typing this and already took credit himself.
Joke's on you. PFO won't be including tomato farming or rot mechanics until well after initial enrollment! >:D
