Slander against Golgotha


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Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon has accused Golgotha of intentionally cheating in the second land rush by using votes already used on Aeturnum during the first land rush to bolster our numbers. This is not true. His basis for this accusation is derived from the fact that he cannot do simple math. Previous to the clarification from Ryan Dancey that Golgotha could not use unspent (in LR1) Aeturnum votes, I made a post explaining that the controversy was over 5 votes.

Quote:
We have audited our votes. We are gaining 5 votes from Aeturnum. We are losing 3 votes from Golgotha because they are locked into Aeturnum. There is a difference of 2 votes. Does anyone think that 2 votes is making us "no longer [sic] need to worry about their own land rush"?

At least in my mind, my intent is fairly clear. 5 Aeturnum votes, that had not been used in LR1, were being used on Golgotha in LR2. 3 Golgotha votes, that had been used for Aeturnum in LR1, were being (rightfully) forced to be used on Aeturnum in LR2. The difference, had those Golgothans been informed before LR1 was locked, is 2 votes.

That was twisted into something that I am not quite sure I understand. It was twisted into us cheating, when in fact it is indicative of the exact opposite. It is indicative of us playing exactly to the rules as we understood them at the time. While the clarification from Dancey changed the 5 Aeturnum votes, they had absolutely no bearing on the misspent Golgotha votes.

Nihimon made this accusation in a thread that good will would have restricted us from responding in. I do not enjoy the fact that I had to derail what is effectively a recruitment post just to get what was close to an answer. Pax Gaming has owned the fact that we wrongly used spare Aeturnum votes to support Golgotha. We fixed that. But we have never, ever misused LR1 votes.

This is a public demand that Nihimon retract his accusation that Pax Gaming misused any LR1 votes. If he can provide proof to the contrary, he is free to post it. If not, then make a public apology.

Substantiate your claim, or retract it.

Goblin Squad Member

Dropping guild tag to say my opinions on the the different issues:

1. Pax sending Aet votes to Gologotha: Was never a big deal to me, but glad that Pax owned up to it and fixed it anyways.

2. Golgotha going for a settlement despite being part of Pax: A worthy debate, it was pretty clearly against the rules, but it was a special case and in the end I think the right thing happened with Golgotha staying in LR.

3. Pax Fidelis joining Ozem's Vigil: Doesn't seem like anybody who voted before is voting again or even any votes have been funneled, so NON ISSUE.

4. The 2 votes: I don't give a s+#%, I don't give a s@&!, I don't give a s&@#, I don't give a flying frog's s$*% about two f+$%ing votes!!!!

Goblin Squad Member

avari3 wrote:


3. Pax Fidelis joining Ozem's Vigil: Doesn't seem like anybody who voted before is voting again or even any votes have been funneled, so NON ISSUE.

I can answer this one to confirm.

Votes was not a concern for us. We knew that Fidelis had many of their members that voted for Aeternum. We're thinking the long game here past the Land Rush. The Fidelis Company is filled with fantastic people that I'm proud to call settlemates (that's right I'm going to copyright that too ;P) We are all excited to play the game and build a settlement towards growing and evolving our independent, unified vision.

Goblin Squad Member

FMS Quietus wrote:

I can answer this one to confirm.

Votes was not a concern for us. We knew that Fidelis had many of their members that voted for Aeternum. We're thinking the long game here past the Land Rush. The Fidelis Company is filled with fantastic people that I'm proud to call settlemates (that's right I'm going to copyright that too ;P) We are all excited to play the game and build a settlement towards growing and evolving our independent, unified vision.

And I can respond to say that I thought the same things when the idea of joining with FMS and PTV was first posted to us. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Hmm, I can see how that quote from Morbis could be misunderstood.

I was under the impression that Morbis was saying "Golgotha has lost 3 votes from Golgotha members that voted for Aeternum in Land Rush 1" rather than "Golgotha is losing 3 votes now as we move the votes rightfully to Aeternum"

The fact that I and others consider that quote as the exact opposite of what Nihimon was saying lends itself to Nihimon making a mistake, not slandering Pax.

Nihimon would have to be stupid to publicly make a statement that he knew to be false and then include the quote that says the exact opposite in that statement. Nihimon is not stupid and he is not a slanderer; he has made the mistake of posting his suspicion as fact.

Goblin Squad Member

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Slander does not require malicious intent. It does not require that the slanderer be absolute in his knowledge. That Nihimon publicly accused Golgotha of knowingly breaking developer rules, something we have never done, is slanderous.

That he bases that slander on a misunderstanding that could easily have been cleared up with a single PM makes it even worse.

This is not how someone that claims to fight for the soul of the community should act.

Goblin Squad Member

We know Pax doesn't think so, but not a few people believe Pax was and/or is still breaking the rules (knowingly, even), depending on their opinion.

That aside, I don't see any point in publicly debating any potential rule breaking further. Pax has made their position clear; nothing else will come of further public debate.

Nihimon has more apology posts on this forum than anybody else, I think. He's a good guy like that. He doesn't have a problem evaluating his behavior after the fact. Given the chance, he will own up to his mistakes.

Goblin Squad Member

Going back to the lawsuit-thing I mentioned earlier: if you've been slandered, what penalty needs extracting? If that penalty is a retraction, and none arrives, what's your recourse?

Goblin Squad Member

I pretty much agree with Avari on this one.

Golgotha SHOULD be in the Landrush.

But I feel that you are a single entity.

Also, Jazz is correct in the questions he asks, not sure what the recourse is going to be except to flame more. I think that this whole mess has gotten out of hands, on both sides, and it is just snowballing. The issue about Golgotha has been resolved, they aren't going to be removed.

They play their way, we can play our way, and in the end we will need both groups to play together to weather the storm that will be OE.

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Cheatle wrote:
They play their way, we can play our way, and in the end we will need both groups to play together to weather the storm that will be OE.

I really hope we have a good base of chroniclers (think we're calling them Heralds atm) for when OE hits. There will be so many stories there that I hope will be recorded.

Goblin Squad Member

avari3 wrote:

Dropping guild tag to say my opinions on the the different issues:

1. Pax sending Aet votes to Gologotha: Was never a big deal to me, but glad that Pax owned up to it and fixed it anyways.

2. Golgotha going for a settlement despite being part of Pax: A worthy debate, it was pretty clearly against the rules, but it was a special case and in the end I think the right thing happened with Golgotha staying in LR.

3. Pax Fidelis joining Ozem's Vigil: Doesn't seem like anybody who voted before is voting again or even any votes have been funneled, so NON ISSUE.

4. The 2 votes: I don't give a s~$*, I don't give a s@~@, I don't give a s#~+, I don't give a flying frog's s@&! about two f*#@ing votes!!!!

QFT, especially the bolded part.

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Going back to the lawsuit-thing I mentioned earlier: if you've been slandered, what penalty needs extracting? If that penalty is a retraction, and none arrives, what's your recourse?

What lawsuit thing? There is certainly no lawsuit potential anywhere in here.

Goblin Squad Member

Yawn


If the community has the incontestable right to slander and villify Golgotha and it's membership then we have the incontestable right to defend ourselves.

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Or, if you need it more simply.

The onus is on our attackers to prove their claims, the onus is not on us to disprove them.

Goblin Squad Member

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Gol PotatoMcWhiskey wrote:

If the community has the incontestable right to slander and villify Golgotha and it's membership then we have the incontestable right to defend ourselves.

That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Or, if you need it more simply.

The onus is on our attackers to prove their claims, the onus is not on us to disprove them.

heh, you said onus....

Goblin Squad Member

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While I agree that critical thinking dictates that one has to assume that a claim is false until proven true and it's always a good thing to assume innocence untill proven guilty I'd argue that the one who attacked and vilified was not "the community"


TEO Papaver wrote:
While I agree that critical thinking dictates that one has to assume that a claim is false until proven true and it's always a good thing to assume innocence untill proven guilty I'd argue that the one who attacked and vilified was not "the community"

That is a fair statement.

I didn't feel it was important to name specifics as everyone who has had the misfortune of having to witness this hate-train knows whos involved and where they stand on the issue.

Apologies for lumping the entire community under an umbrella.

Goblin Squad Member

My nickle and a half. If one labels oneself as part of a group. Pax as this example. Then you are for all intents and purpose a Pax. Sublabels are pointless at this point because it appears to outsiders as a bs extragrab for more settlements under the subtext of a "different party. Why not have simply dropped the Pax text if all was done in intent of innocence?

Goblin Squad Member

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Gol Morbis wrote:
...

You are just as guilty, if not more so, of slander as you've been throwing mud on Nihimon's good name for the past week. Your organization and yourself are no angels and Nihimon no devil. If you're going to make new threads on this issue at least be fair and also quote the horrid things you've said about him, and any other person that has questioned the happenings here. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

I'm really disappointed in us as a community for not being able to just discuss this without resulting to such pettiness. Until recently we've been able to converse with hardly any real issues. I'd love it if both sides dropped the pride and took a moment to realize where both sides were coming from. Pride is poison, swallow it, apologize and move on.

Goblin Squad Member

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Saiph the Fallen wrote:
...Nihimon's good name...

I'm the only one responsible for how "good" people perceive my name to be.

Pax is the only one responsible for how "good" people perceive Pax's name to be.

Nihimon is the only one responsible for how "good" people perceive Nihimon's name to be.

Assuming anything else is always an attempt to avoid responsibility. If I ever assume that people don't take me seriously because anything else then me having messed up then i'm the jerk.

Goblin Squad Member

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Saiph the Fallen wrote:
Gol Morbis wrote:
...
You are just as guilty, if not more so, of slander as you've been throwing mud on Nihimon's good name for the past week. Your organization and yourself are no angels and Nihimon no devil. If you're going to make new threads on this issue at least be fair and also quote the horrid things you've said about him, and any other person that has questioned the happenings here. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

I have read this controversy in the original thread as well as the numerous threads it has infected after the first was locked as a person who recently returned from a long period of not following this particular forum.

From that perspective, WTF is Nihimon doing? He literally seems like a completely different person since I was last posting here. He not only jumped back into the first thread after the original issue had been dealt with and turned it into a referendum on Golgotha's right to exist, but he then brought all of the same b#@$%&@% into a completely different thread after the first one was locked. In that regard I see exactly what Morbis is talking about. I think that prolonging drama after it gets locked for being toxic is pretty indefensible. If perception can override reality about Pax's organizations structure, then it can equally paint Nihimon as a grade A ego trying to defend his ideological hegemony rather than a pillar of the community trying to get everyone to be collectively better.

I know that Nihimon is capable of owning his mistakes and misdeeds, and I have seen the leadership of Golgotha do the same already during this whole clusterf!@%, so I have no doubt that mutual apologies can be excahanged, but is an apology actually going to end this? I will certainly help, but I don't think that it end things completely at this point. I think that it is related to the emergence of a new power bloc beyond the hegemony of the Roseblood accords rather than anyone's specific alleged misconduct. someone has torn a rift in this community and it is not going to get better until we are killing each other in game. Fortunately that day comes closer as we speak.


@Saiph

Thats hilarious.

Golgotha didn't post a single message outside of information clarification in that thread for an entire week. I encourage you to go read it.

And yet, despite us not engaging in Nihimons crusade against us he continued to lobby for our removal from the landrush board despite us dealing with all issues the community had.

The very SECOND we responded to the correct community issues Nihimon completely changed his tune and started attacking us.

Please, don't get involved unless you can back your s##@ up.

[Edit: Quoted wrong person]

Goblin Squad Member

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As a general rule I've always believed someone who expresses as much outrage as you have and spends as much time justifying themselves as you have almost always did something wrong and knows they did something wrong.

These continual posts and threads of yours do nothing to further your cause, the people here have already made up there minds and nothing you say can change there minds.

All you are doing at this point is hurting the overall health of the game by chasing away any undecided people coming into these forums by creating a toxic, unhealthy, UNATTRACTIVE environment for new players.

Please try to be the better person and let these stupid threads die and bite your tongue for 30-60 days and deal with this IN GAME where it belongs.

Goblin Squad Member

Quote:
Please try to be the better person and let these stupid threads die and bite your tongue for 30-60 days and deal with this IN GAME where it belongs.

Not going to happen. When a person of such prominence in a community accuses the second largest collection of payers of outright cheating, there are consequences.

We tried being the bigger men. We gave the community a week to hash this out among themselves. What we got was Nihimon escalating his accusations. What we got was one of the largest threads in this forums history filled with vitriol and hate.

We were silent long enough.


Summersnow wrote:

As a general rule I've always believed someone who expresses as much outrage as you have and spends as much time justifying themselves as you have almost always did something wrong and knows they did something wrong.

These continual posts and threads of yours do nothing to further your cause, the people here have already made up there minds and nothing you say can change there minds.

All you are doing at this point is hurting the overall health of the game by chasing away any undecided people coming into these forums by creating a toxic, unhealthy, UNATTRACTIVE environment for new players.

Please try to be the better person and let these stupid threads die and bite your tongue for 30-60 days and deal with this IN GAME where it belongs.

We left the thread for a week and yet we were continuously attacked. We tried to take the high road, but they refused to let it die. Now we refuse to let it die.

Goblin Squad Member

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Summersnow wrote:

As a general rule I've always believed someone who expresses as much outrage as you have and spends as much time justifying themselves as you have almost always did something wrong and knows they did something wrong.

I disagree that them continuing this means they are guilty. Whether I think they should or not being another question that I have no opinion on. But they were attacked, repeatedly. It got personal. Them expressing outrage doesn't mean they are guilty. It means they are human.

Goblin Squad Member

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The key point here is that it got personal. It took a week of things becoming and staying personal to get Gologotha's leadership this pissed off. That shows impressive discipline in their response from where I am sitting.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol PotatoMcWhiskey wrote:

@Saiph

And yet, despite us not engaging in Nihimons crusade against us he continued to lobby for our removal from the landrush board despite us dealing with all issues the community had.

The very SECOND we responded to the correct community issues Nihimon completely changed his tune and started attacking us.

Please, don't get involved unless you can back your s!!# up.

[Edit: Quoted wrong person]

Golgotha still hasn't dealt with all the issues the community had.

Really, all the posts from Pax, one after another, suggest that there is no issue and therefore Nihimon must have nefarious purposes. This is patently untrue.

Own up that not everybody thinks what you're doing is right. Quite attacking people for having a different opinion than you.

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Papaver wrote:
Saiph the Fallen wrote:
...Nihimon's good name...

I'm the only one responsible for how "good" people perceive my name to be.

Pax is the only one responsible for how "good" people perceive Pax's name to be.

Nihimon is the only one responsible for how "good" people perceive Nihimon's name to be.

Assuming anything else is always an attempt to avoid responsibility. If I ever assume that people don't take me seriously because anything else then me having messed up then i'm the jerk.

Wrong. Nihimon has a part in it, but nearly ALL of the responsibility of how a person views Nihimon is on that person.


Kakafika wrote:
Gol PotatoMcWhiskey wrote:

@Saiph

And yet, despite us not engaging in Nihimons crusade against us he continued to lobby for our removal from the landrush board despite us dealing with all issues the community had.

The very SECOND we responded to the correct community issues Nihimon completely changed his tune and started attacking us.

Please, don't get involved unless you can back your s!!# up.

[Edit: Quoted wrong person]

Golgotha still hasn't dealt with all the issues the community had.

Really, all the posts from Pax, one after another, suggest that there is no issue and therefore Nihimon must have nefarious purposes. This is patently untrue.

Own up that not everybody thinks what you're doing is right. Quite attacking people for having a different opinion than you.

Pot, Meet Kettle.


Saiph the Fallen wrote:
Saint Caleth wrote:
The key point here is that it got personal. It took a week of things becoming and staying personal to get Gologotha's leadership this pissed off. That shows impressive discipline in their response from where I am sitting.
Discipline? There was no discipline before in the way they bad mouthed Nihimon for having his opinion and now they are continuing the grudge in new threads, I definitely don't consider that discipline. If you know in your hearts of hearts that you're innocent, put a stop to this show and move on. Now that would be impressive discipline indeed.

Do not try to paint us as the bad guys. The second we started defending ourselves everyone has been crying ceasefire, where were the calls to end the drama when we remained unresponsive? Had we not spoken up against those who are bismirching our good name that thread would still be a gigantic circlejerk of hatred directed solely at the Pax Gaming Community on the part of Nihimon and his cronys.

Furthermore, Nihimon started this in an unrelated thread. We just made a new thread to make it official.

Also? Deleting your post? You need to be faster than that.

Goblin Squad Member

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Kakafika wrote:
TEO Papaver wrote:
Saiph the Fallen wrote:
...Nihimon's good name...

I'm the only one responsible for how "good" people perceive my name to be.

Pax is the only one responsible for how "good" people perceive Pax's name to be.

Nihimon is the only one responsible for how "good" people perceive Nihimon's name to be.

Assuming anything else is always an attempt to avoid responsibility. If I ever assume that people don't take me seriously because anything else then me having messed up then i'm the jerk.

Wrong. Nihimon has a part in it, but nearly ALL of the responsibility of how a person views Nihimon is on that person.

Exactly. However someone views Nihimon is their own personal view.

Grand Lodge

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My only input here is the following.

I've never once seen big N personally attack an individual, only ever a persons arguments. Openly bullying someone for their opinions only tarnishes the attackers personal reputation, and discourages otherwise potential voices to silence themselves out of fear of reprisal, and that is unequivocally a BAD thing.


KotC Carbon D. Metric wrote:

My only input here is the following.

I've never once seen big N personally attack an individual, only ever a persons arguments. Openly bullying someone for their opinions only tarnishes the attackers personal reputation, and discourages otherwise potential voices to silence themselves out of fear of reprisal, and that is unequivocally a BAD thing.

Every single justification people try to level in Nihimons favour are things that can just as easily be applied to the "big N" himself.

Goblin Squad Member

I weep for the community if we have reached this point already.

Goblin Squad Member

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Gol Morbis wrote:
filled with vitriol and hate.

Stop exaggerating.

Nothing posted anywhere on these forums has risen to the level of "vitriol and hate."

Even if we accept the premise that Nihimon is lying and attacking you personally for some nefarious reason, you need to tone your rhetoric way down.

If you think the sorts of accusations and comments that have been flying around in the last week are "vitriol and hate", you are very poorly prepared to be the public face of any political organization.

Goblin Squad Member

Accusing us of outright cheating is vitriolic. It is also hateful. That there is room for even more vitriol, and even more hate should not have any bearing.

Trust me, I know vitriol and hate. I was active in the Darkfall community pre-release.

Goblin Squad Member

@JDNYC, Kakafika:

Sure, yet only Nihimon is responsible for his actions. No one other then Nihimon has agency over Nihimon.

Goblin Squad Member

I don't think "it could be worse" is an adequate excuse for any behavior, ever.

By the by, for anyone who followed the thread or posted without letting their emotions get the best of them, thank you.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol PotatoMcWhiskey wrote:
Saiph the Fallen wrote:
Saint Caleth wrote:
The key point here is that it got personal. It took a week of things becoming and staying personal to get Gologotha's leadership this pissed off. That shows impressive discipline in their response from where I am sitting.
Discipline? There was no discipline before in the way they bad mouthed Nihimon for having his opinion and now they are continuing the grudge in new threads, I definitely don't consider that discipline. If you know in your hearts of hearts that you're innocent, put a stop to this show and move on. Now that would be impressive discipline indeed.

Do not try to paint us as the bad guys. The second we started defending ourselves everyone has been crying ceasefire, where were the calls to end the drama when we remained unresponsive? Had we not spoken up against those who are bismirching our good name that thread would still be a gigantic circlejerk of hatred directed solely at the Pax Gaming Community on the part of Nihimon and his cronys.

Furthermore, Nihimon started this in an unrelated thread. We just made a new thread to make it official.

Also? Deleting your post? You need to be faster than that.

Just to clarify, I deleted my post because I needed to edit it and I was in the car on my phone. I'm sure you can understand how editing could be a problem. I was going to repost it once it had been edited for grammar, but you've already quoted it, so no need. You all can continue sitting in your chariot of innocence, but I do have hope sooner or later your organization will take some sort of responsibility and own your actions. I've seen nothing of the sort, just blame, blame, blame and more blame. And don't misunderstand me, both sides have been playing the blame game not just PAX.

Goblin Squad Member

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So the part where George said, "We messed up and misunderstood, we're fixing our mistake now." That wasn't taking responsibility?

Goblin Squad Member

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Psvinkle wrote:
My nickle and a half. If one labels oneself as part of a group. Pax as this example. Then you are for all intents and purpose a Pax. Sublabels are pointless at this point because it appears to outsiders as a bs extragrab for more settlements under the subtext of a "different party. Why not have simply dropped the Pax text if all was done in intent of innocence?

@Psvinkle - The PAX text is mandatory (PAX charter, article 5.3) and can't be dropped.

For Fult, having two settlements is not big problem. One big guild with one settlement will have resources X less a cost to maintain the settlement Y and will win a benefit of Z. One guild with 2 medium size settlements will have more resources less a more important cost to maintain the 2 settlements with less people and it is a possibility that the benefit could be more important but nobody can say it now.

The only thing that matters is the autonomy of the settlements. If the benefits of the settlement are reinvested only in its own development, the impact could be minimal and Fult understands that it is what Pax intends to do.

<Fult scratches his head> Well, that is what Fult understood. Fult not really good with politics. Sorry for the interruption, please resume your... er... what you were doing.

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Papaver wrote:

@JDNYC, Kakafika:

Sure, yet only Nihimon is responsible for his actions.

Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

The Umbridge link was meant as a joke because of what the character represents and honestly Nihimon's posts kind of come off that way to me in the forums lately. If he sees it as a personal attack, I will remove the link immediately.

Goblin Squad Member

Shane Gifford of Fidelis wrote:
So the part where George said, "We messed up and misunderstood, we're fixing our mistake now." That wasn't taking responsibility?

Again, trying to make the problem worse with these kinds of things doesn't help. Yes, that was fantastic. But that was then this is now and in this thread all I've seen is blame. And so does every onlooker.

Goblin Squad Member

Saiph the Fallen wrote:
Shane Gifford of Fidelis wrote:
So the part where George said, "We messed up and misunderstood, we're fixing our mistake now." That wasn't taking responsibility?
Again, trying to make the problem worse with these kinds of things doesn't help. Yes, that was fantastic. But that was then this is now and in this thread all I've seen is blame. And so does every onlooker.

Okay, that's fine; your wording was "You all can continue sitting in your chariot of innocence, but I do have hope sooner or later your organization will take some sort of responsibility and own your actions. I've seen nothing of the sort, just blame, blame, blame and more blame." You might see where I took offense to that, because you did use phrases like "nothing of the sort" to indicate the Pax groups have never taken responsibility.

Goblin Squad Member

JDNYC wrote:


Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

The Umbridge link was meant as a joke because of what the character represents and honestly Nihimon's posts kind of come off that way to me in the forums lately. If he sees it as a personal attack, I will remove the link immediately.

Honestly Zac, it's not a line of humor we want to start.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Gol Morbis wrote:
...

I don't really see the point of this thread. You've already declared that you would raze T7V, and that its member should flee.

Is it an attempt at a diplomatic way to resolve the situation ? If it is, it would be more productive to start a discussion in private, asking for a gesture of goodwill, than a public ultimatum.

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Avari wrote:
JDNYC wrote:


Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

The Umbridge link was meant as a joke because of what the character represents and honestly Nihimon's posts kind of come off that way to me in the forums lately. If he sees it as a personal attack, I will remove the link immediately.

Honestly Zac, it's not a line of humor we want to start.

This is actually Quietus, not Zac. I can't edit the link.

I have flagged it myself to see if the comment will be removed then.

Goblin Squad Member

JDNYC wrote:
T7V Avari wrote:
JDNYC wrote:


Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

The Umbridge link was meant as a joke because of what the character represents and honestly Nihimon's posts kind of come off that way to me in the forums lately. If he sees it as a personal attack, I will remove the link immediately.

Honestly Zac, it's not a line of humor we want to start.

This is actually Quietus, not Zac. I can't edit the link.

I have flagged it myself to see if the comment will be removed then.

ah right, srry for mix up and thanks.

Goblin Squad Member

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Audoucet wrote:
Gol Morbis wrote:
...

I don't really see the point of this thread. You've already declared that you would raze T7V, and that its member should flee.

Is it an attempt at a diplomatic way to resolve the situation ? If it is, it would be more productive to start a discussion in private, asking for a gesture of goodwill, than a public ultimatum.

To be fair to Morbis, he has already done just that.

This thread is not doing anyone any favours. People are just entrenching their positions and digging their heels in. Those of you on both sides who have any common sense at all - please just stop. Both sides. Quite frankly this resembles an "argument" at Kindergarten at the moment, with cries of "but he started it, Miss!", and it's making us all look stupid. We're better than this. Or we should be.

So to my fellow members of T7V - please lay off the Golgothans. If Nihimon feels the need to comment again, I am sure he's a big enough boy to do so for himself (although I personally hope he's said enough). To those from Golgotha - please just give it a rest for a while, let tempers calm, and let those who are talking - not shouting past each other - try to sort things out satisfactorily for all concerned.

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