Goblin Squad Member
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I do have a large concern though. That is that T1 materials, like copper, will end up the way of other games where once you pass that tier you will never use those materials again. I hope the system makes it so that there will always be demand for low tier materials. Because if thats not the case, then you might as well get rid of having those things since they will never be used.
They've said that Tier one items will be useful throughout your career. Now as to how easy it will be to find crafters to work on them.....
(edit) D'oh! If I'd waited another thrity seconds....
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm a little iffy about them putting recipes on monsters and the like. I was wanting to go pure crafting and become a kind of merchant since I remember they do reward players more for specializing in one area over spreading their skills around in multiple classes. So, wouldn't that really restrict the kinds of skills I could really work at improving without having to hire on a group of people for a chance drop?I imagine recipes will be saleable on the markets, so your pure crafter could simply buy the recipes. Whether or not the better recipes will be readily available in the manner, or whether they'll be so rare that it'll be extremely difficult to find them on the open market, I guess we'll see.
If *every* recipe were discoverable purely through skill unlocks and never-leave-town crafting, everybody could learn everything given enough time which wouldn't be that interesting, so it does seem appropriate to put them out in the world.
I suppose my main issue there is that if you're a crafter you need refined materials from the people who have refining as their class and recipes from the PvE people out there. There's less of a means to generate wealth to start with. Seems like it requires quite a bit of an initial investment of some kind. Whereas if you are of the class that harvests quite a bit, you can sell stuff. If you PvE, you can sell stuff. There's a way to create some sort of starting wealth to work with from those avenues. Does that make sense?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan: What do I do that affects the + value?
Stephen: You have to add more stuff and you have to have special recipes. When you first learn a refining [recipe], each recipe you get will be at the +0 value. So you make it at +0, if you're lucky and your skill is high enough you might occasionally get a +1 or +2 out of it, but you cannot make +3 or better with that recipe. You've got to go out into the world and you've got to find better recipes that can make the higher + value version of that item.
I love that there will be a "lucky" random element to results. Is there a way to work things so that those pesky min-max specialists are not clogging the production queue (with say single ingot orders) to get the average result?
Maybe I am missing something... was there a one job limit per user?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan: What do I do that affects the + value?
Stephen: You have to add more stuff and you have to have special recipes. When you first learn a refining [recipe], each recipe you get will be at the +0 value. So you make it at +0, if you're lucky and your skill is high enough you might occasionally get a +1 or +2 out of it, but you cannot make +3 or better with that recipe. You've got to go out into the world and you've got to find better recipes that can make the higher + value version of that item.
I love that there will be a "lucky" random element to results. Is there a way to work things so that those pesky min-max specialists are not clogging the production queue (with say single ingot orders) to get the average result?
Maybe I am missing something... was there a one job limit per user?
I hope that doing a batch of 50 nets the same results as doing 50 single ingots. So when you collect your 50 ingots, no matter how you put them in, they come out the same way. Like 47 +0, 2 +1s, and a +2.
Because if everything in a batch came out the same way, there would be serious wealth spikes if someone does a batch of 100 and they come out +3s.
So let's hope for the strategy/minecraft method, where adding identical items just increases the stack and they still get done one at a time. That way also has the nice effect of being able to come back when they are only half done, take what is done, then queue up some more.
Edit: there was words said about a limit of one day worth of queue. So, if a iron ingot takes 15 min to complete, one guy would be able to do 96 of them per day.
Also, they did mention something about limiting the number of players who can be crafting something at one time at the same facility. One way to do that is that the facility can do X number of jobs simultaneously. Everybody who's trying to use said facility will be shuffled into 2 (or more) lists: preferred, and not preferred. Once a job is done, the facility will start working on the guy who is at the top of the preferred list, or the top of the non preferred list if there is nobody in the preferred list. Once one of your jobs are started, you get sent to the bottom of your list.
However, if you get a decent bit of gold from random people using your facilities, you may what to set a few (assembly lines?) to work on not preferred people's stuff before the preferred people's stuff.
Or it might be that when the facility has more jobs it can handle, it slows down. Then people on the not preferred list will have their jobs stopped until there's less work to be done.
Hmm... So with the different Tiers/ratings of materials, would low rating materials be able to be "refined" into higher grade material somehow?
The bit about character inventory vs. personal bank vs. company bank vs. settlement bank was interesting...
Re: the initially planned functionality, "popping into" the crafter's personal inventory,
I take it that requires being at the locale of the crafting workshop into order to grab the gear?
I was confused about how the video talked about the crafted item popping into bank accounts (at least eventually),
probably in the settlement they're tied to, although NPC towns could also have this.
Is the intention that your crafted item would "warp" away from the crafting location, to the specified bank vault?
That just seemed counter to my expectation of locality of production...
Of course it introduces another locality-concern (where said bank vault is located)
but keeping "initial pick up location" tied to locality of production site just seems normal.
With the talk about crafted gear sourced from company/settlement vaults "popping back into" company/settlement banks,
it sounds like the concern there is re: ownership/permissions, but it seems like the crafted item itself
should still "pop out" at the site of crafting... And the ruling powers of said account can grant "pick up" permissions
to whoever they designate, who can then "pick up" the item from the crafting workshop, etc...???
Getting into that level of things seems likely to also involve the contract system, which could automate/ensure permissions levels,
e.g. once Sword X is deposited, 500 Gold can be withdrawn. Even if you want to require person to person interaction,
especially for transactions outside of companies, such contractualized permission automation could simplifiy allowing
ANY company member to serve as representative to officially receive the seller's item and pay them out of company accounts.
Something like that would also facilitate a prouction company contracting transport to 3rd parties,
if they have a standardized/automated "pick up" permission, automatically tied into ongoing contract.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have not seen anything lately on the skills, the variety of skills, the quantity, or depth of different skill trees. I am hopeful crafting skills, martial skills, gathering, refining skills, leadership, settlement management, engineering, farming related skills, spell research, exploration, cartography, languages, etc, etc. will be in skill trees that are deep enough so no one could ever have them all. I think EVE has like 24 years worth of skill training so you much specialize from the very beginning.
Certainly some skills will be needed for everyone (Sword Swingin' Level I), but as you advance in your chosen career field the competition should narrow dramatically.
Any word yet on how the skills, skills tress and skill depth are coming along?
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Goblin Squad Member
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...pure ACE characters...ACE = Armed Combat Enthusiast?
Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert (I know because I coined the term ACE when that dev blog came out :Op).
Aristocrat - trains skills to run (companys?), settlements, and eventually kingdoms.
Commoner - Trains skills to gather more and more elite raw materials needed to be processed into player equipment and supplies.
Expert - Trains skills to make more and more elite equipment and supplies for players out of the raw materials provided by Commoners.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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What type of training will a crafter need to craft? Will it be comparable to training one of the other roles or will it be much less?
I believe Expert is similar in XP cost to Fighter (may be a little less, overall). Expert expects you to train several Craft skills as well as a slate of feats that help with crafting (e.g., ones that give you an additional queue). Just pursuing one Craft skill is much less XP than a whole role, but won't give you the robust options of an Expert.
I love that there will be a "lucky" random element to results. Is there a way to work things so that those pesky min-max specialists are not clogging the production queue (with say single ingot orders) to get the average result?
Maybe I am missing something... was there a one job limit per user?
Each item in a batch has its own random chance. Making several items at once should output the same results as making them one at at time.
So let's hope for the strategy/minecraft method, where adding identical items just increases the stack and they still get done one at a time. That way also has the nice effect of being able to come back when they are only half done, take what is done, then queue up some more.
This is in the plan. Right now, a whole batch pops out at once, but eventually they should appear as soon as they're individually done.
Edit: there was words said about a limit of one day worth of queue. So, if a iron ingot takes 15 min to complete, one guy would be able to do 96 of them per day.
Right. The intent is also that setting up a big batch counts as one thing for the queue. So if you have 23 hours of stuff, you could queue up an oversized batch of one thing that individually takes less than an hour but all together pushes the queue up over 24.
Also, they did mention something about limiting the number of players who can be crafting something at one time at the same facility.
If we did, it was an error. A facility can support any number of crafters simultaneously; the queue is your personal queue, not the facility's. We didn't want to create a situation where new crafters were forced out of using facilities and discouraged from pursuing the skill because they were using up strictly limited resources.
Eventually we do plan to have a limited resource on facilities that you can buy to speed up your own crafting, so a few individuals will be moving at premium crafting speeds but then any number of others can craft at the normal rate.
Is the intention that your crafted item would "warp" away from the crafting location, to the specified bank vault?
Only within a single settlement. We decided the convenience of not having to schlep everything in and out of your inventory to get it around town outweighed the (probably tiny) chance of getting robbed between the bank and the crafting facility. You cannot craft in one town and get the result to appear in any storage that isn't also in that town.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do we have any information on the granularity of crafting facilities yet?
Are there different buildings for each step of the crafting process?
Are there vertically integrated facilities for each kind of crafting material? I think that this is the most likely, with forges, mills, etc.
Are there too many different facilities for one modestly-sized settlement to have good development of all of them? I could see how this too is desirable from GW's point of view.
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Dear Mister Cheney,
Do you and Ryan ever meet at the water cooler and have conversations like:
Stephen: "Hey."
Ryan: "Hey, what's up?"
Stephen: "Man, I've been handling this Crafting System thread all day. Real pain in the patooty. These gamers sure have a lot of questions, and I'm never sure which ones are a good idea to answer. Really distracting me from my real work, but I make do. You?"
Ryan: "I've been handling the Pax threads."
*Awkward silence*
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Goblin Squad Member
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What type of training will a crafter need to craft? Will it be comparable to training one of the other roles or will it be much less?I believe Expert is similar in XP cost to Fighter (may be a little less, overall). Expert expects you to train several Craft skills as well as a slate of feats that help with crafting (e.g., ones that give you an additional queue). Just pursuing one Craft skill is much less XP than a whole role, but won't give you the robust options of an Expert.
I really like how you have designed this. Where an adventuring character (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard, etc.) can still dabble in crafting if they want by taking one (or more) of the relevant crafting skills, a dedicated crafter will truly have his own path and class (Expert) that will distinguish him.
Also, I had been wondering for awhile how many crafting ‘professions’ a dedicated crafter would be able to take, I am glad to hear that Expert allows you to specialize in several different crafting skills as I don’t know if I could just pick one.
Expert is definitely the route I plan on taking.
Stephen, you indicated that Spellcraft would be a requirement if you wished to also enchant the items you are crafting (which makes complete sense).
To clarify, to have the ability to enchant items will have it’s own skill? Very much like you would take Armorsmithing, Weaponsmithing, Structure Building, etc?
Also, what is the limit on the number of crafting skills an Expert can fully specialize in? I.E. go to the highest tier?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Also, what is the limit on the number of crafting skills an Expert can fully specialize in? I.E. go to the highest tier?
I'm reasonably confident the only limits on training in PFO are time, xp, and achievements. You will be limited in the number of skills you can have equipped though, so there is a chance you will not be able to craft everything all at the same time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really like how you have designed this. Where an adventuring character (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard, etc.) can still dabble in crafting if they want by taking one (or more) of the relevant crafting skills, a dedicated crafter will truly have his own path and class (Expert) that will distinguish him.
Given what they have said about it taking roughly a month to get to '8th level' (out of 20) in a particular role, it seems likely that most combat focused players will have at least a level or two of gathering and/or crafting skills and vice versa. I mean, if it only takes up a day or two worth of XP why not dip a little into other lines of development. Ok, now you're a few days behind the most focused of all gatherers in the game... but you have some better combat abilities to defend yourself when out gathering.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really like how you have designed this. Where an adventuring character (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard, etc.) can still dabble in crafting if they want by taking one (or more) of the relevant crafting skills, a dedicated crafter will truly have his own path and class (Expert) that will distinguish him.Given what they have said about it taking roughly a month to get to '8th level' (out of 20) in a particular role, it seems likely that most combat focused players will have at least a level or two of gathering and/or crafting skills and vice versa. I mean, if it only takes up a day or two worth of XP why not dip a little into other lines of development. Ok, now you're a few days behind the most focused of all gatherers in the game... but you have some better combat abilities to defend yourself when out gathering.
Oh, I agree with you fully. You will see the difference when the queue times really increase when raising your side skills and it’s not worthwhile on your time investment to go down a path outside of your character focus (class).
I know with myself, even though I said I plan to be a dedicated crafter (Expert), I will most likely take basic fighting skills, and especially gathering skills, just so I can get some of the base ingredients.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dear Mister Cheney,
Do you and Ryan ever meet at the water cooler and have conversations like:Stephen: "Hey."
Ryan: "Hey, what's up?"
Stephen: "Man, I've been handling this Crafting System thread all day. Real pain in the patooty. These gamers sure have a lot of questions, and I'm never sure which ones are a good idea to answer. Really distracting me from my real work, but I make do. You?"
Ryan: "I've been handling the Pax threads."
*Awkward silence*
I almost snorted my beverage out my nose.
Curse you KC!:p
Dare i say crafting gear?...
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Spellcraft is the skill that provides the prereqs to learn enchantment recipes, but it's not otherwise treated like a Craft skill (its skill total doesn't influence crafting time or provide a bonus to + value). Its skill total will eventually be used for other things relevant to Spellcraft.
You can, indeed, on a long enough timeline learn everything. Skills are different from slotted feats: since they're mostly used in specific circumstances, you don't have to slot them. If you have Spellcraft 14, you always have it, even if you also have a bunch of other skills. You CAN slot feats and wear gear that gives you a bonus to skill total. So, for, say, Weaponsmithing, if you have feats and gear that gives you +Weaponsmithing, while you're wearing it your weapons will craft faster.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Spellcraft is the skill that provides the prereqs to learn enchantment recipes, but it's not otherwise treated like a Craft skill (its skill total doesn't influence crafting time or provide a bonus to + value). Its skill total will eventually be used for other things relevant to Spellcraft.
You can, indeed, on a long enough timeline learn everything. Skills are different from slotted feats: since they're mostly used in specific circumstances, you don't have to slot them. If you have Spellcraft 14, you always have it, even if you also have a bunch of other skills. You CAN slot feats and wear gear that gives you a bonus to skill total. So, for, say, Weaponsmithing, if you have feats and gear that gives you +Weaponsmithing, while you're wearing it your weapons will craft faster.
How does that work in relation to the queues? Do you equip all of your +Crafting gear, set up your crafting queue, and then you can unequip the +Crafting gear?
Or do you have to wear it for the duration of the job?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, that sounds like a definate Yes to crafting gear! Awesome! Would this gear with + Weaponsmithing be a Plate Chestpiece that has a Keyword with + Weaponcrafting, or are we talking a Thick Leather Apron here, with such a bonus? :)
I am curious about the queue too. Though I am thinking that the obtaining of such gear as a crafter (and creating a market for it)is the more important feature here, and not so much having to wear it during a queue.
Though without soulbinding, I could see a piece of Uber crafting gear go hand to hand next to the Forge.....
Lots of backstabbing at the forge be assured!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Spellcraft is the skill that provides the prereqs to learn enchantment recipes, but it's not otherwise treated like a Craft skill (its skill total doesn't influence crafting time or provide a bonus to + value). Its skill total will eventually be used for other things relevant to Spellcraft.
I was more referring to the ability to enchant. Is that a skill in itself, like Weaponsmithing, Armorsmithing, etc? But that is good to know how Spellcrafting will work in regards to enchanting.
You can, indeed, on a long enough timeline learn everything. Skills are different from slotted feats: since they're mostly used in specific circumstances, you don't have to slot them. If you have Spellcraft 14, you always have it, even if you also have a bunch of other skills. You CAN slot feats and wear gear that gives you a bonus to skill total. So, for, say, Weaponsmithing, if you have feats and gear that gives you +Weaponsmithing, while you're wearing it your weapons will craft faster.
Ok, now mention 'slotting' feats, do feats work similar in PFO like in the tabletop version where once you choose them, they are permanent? Or can you equip and unequip feats?
Like I want to make a suit of full plate and follow that up with a Longsword. Do I equip feats associated with armorsmithing, and then when I am finished, unequip my armorsmithing feat(s) and then equip my feats associated with weaponsmithing?
Or are they more permanent than that?
You equip feats to make your loudout. Your example is correct Hobbun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Slotting is mix-and-match as the situation requires. You can be a Wizard in the morning, and a Fighter in the afternoon.
We don't yet know how much time it takes to swap, other than the typical "not in combat". I'll not be surprised if it's a matter of a minute or so, and we might even have saved sets that're swappable.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How does that work in relation to the queues? Do you equip all of your +Crafting gear, set up your crafting queue, and then you can unequip the +Crafting gear?
Or do you have to wear it for the duration of the job?
Ideally your crafting time goes up if you take off your crafting gear (or, conversely, goes down once you put it on). That's a harder check that I don't think is in yet, so practically, in the short term, you'll probably be able to put on stuff just long enough to start crafting and then take if off. Just don't get to attached to that working long term ;) .
Well, that sounds like a definate Yes to crafting gear! Awesome! Would this gear with + Weaponsmithing be a Plate Chestpiece that has a Keyword with + Weaponcrafting, or are we talking a Thick Leather Apron here, with such a bonus? :)
Skill bonuses tend to go on headgear, except in special cases (you can, for example, put +Stealth on cloaks as well). And rings can hold almost any miscellaneous gear enchant. So probably more an armorsmithing hat than an apron.
There might, however, ultimately be armor keywords or other misc gear buffs that are in some way useful to Expert/Commoner feats. So you might eventually be able to make a full outfit of things that make you a better crafter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ideally your crafting time goes up if you take off your crafting gear (or, conversely, goes down once you put it on). That's a harder check that I don't think is in yet, so practically, in the short term, you'll probably be able to put on stuff just long enough to start crafting and then take if off. Just don't get to attached to that working long term ;) .How does that work in relation to the queues? Do you equip all of your +Crafting gear, set up your crafting queue, and then you can unequip the +Crafting gear?
Or do you have to wear it for the duration of the job?
Does that not just punish people who want to diversify? I don't want to have to hang around for 1+ Days in my crafting gear to wait for my job to finish... I'd rather use my time adventuring.
Or will there be crafting+ keywords on normal adventure gear as well?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to agree with Dazyk and am glad that the system will BEGIN as you have described it Stephen. I see little use for the gear otherwise accept for players that will sit with the gear equipped. There will be less utility to switch out and go "gathering in dangerous places" if we need to keep the gear equipped.
The again, if that is your reward for the dedicated crafter, I will shut mouth. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Does that not just punish people who want to diversify? I don't want to have to hang around for 1+ Days in my crafting gear to wait for my job to finish... I'd rather use my time adventuring.
Or will there be crafting+ keywords on normal adventure gear as well?
Just make sure to always switch to your 'crafting' gear before you log out. Sure, you won't get things done as fast as if you wore crafting gear 100% of the time, but then if you don't do that you logically should be behind people who do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Recipe Acquisition:
1. Could be good to have a recipe book work something like a spellbook in PFRPG. You get to choose A couple upon advancing in skill to make sure you always have something to work with at that level, but need to find outside sources to add to your list.
2. It would also be good to have a skill for scribing recipes.
3. Perhaps one could eventually learn recipe elements by deconstructing (reverse-engineering) a sample item or two? The ability to learn that way could be a skill in itself.
iCraft?:
Could there be an app which tracks the timers on your crafting jobs, with optional alarm settings so you could pop on to set up your next batches? Someone could of course track it manually, but having an app which could actually pull the information from the server would be worth buying. Perhaps the app itself would be free, but each character could purchase a link code from the cash shop to make that character appear on your device(s). Perhaps it should be done via QR block so the code can be long & complex without the problems that would cause if it were hand-keyed.
Lesser Materials:
I like that they remain relevant throughout the crafting tiers, but I would hope they are not required in such quantities by high-skill folk that low-skill crafters find it impossible to buy what they need to work.
Gathering & Harvesting:
Have you reversed these so that the individual version is 'Gathering' and the outpost operation is 'Harvesting', yet? I seem to recall them being named the other way around was an artefact of the order in which the processes were developed, but I also recall a common perception being that they made more sense the opposite from what you'd named them at the time. Harvesting > Gathering, because you might Gather random herbs in the forest, but working a farm outpost should produce a Harvest.
Aristocrat = Administrator?
Expert = Crafting specialist?
Commoner = Gatherer/Harvester?
But who does the Refiner step between the raw materials & finished goods? Would those skills be taken by Commoners & Experts alike, or is running a refinement facility an administration job run by Aristocrats?
Race:
Would any races get free crafting feats? I think gnomes in the PFRPG do, but it could also be interesting to give a narrower list of such selections to other races.
Major & Minor:
I like that we'll have the option to 'minor' in collecting & crafting skills without it taking too much away from a 'major' in another area. If I know I want a ranger at some point but they aren't currently available, I can work on being a fletcher so I can at least supply my own basic arrows once Ranger stuff actually becomes available.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At some point they (the devs [spell checkers want to make this debs -- 3 times] ) indicated that refining was part of the gathering, but refining may be in both roles (which I would personally recommend). Some refining has limited secondary resource requirements, but to make higher quality (tier) may require more planning (like an Expert, not a commoner).
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Goblin Squad Member
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From what I gather, diversifying isn't what this game is about. It's specializing in something incredibly well, and trading for what else you might need.
This game will have both.
From playing EVE and The Secret World, two other major titles with the be-anything open ended skill systems, you definitely have to pick one thing and focus on it hard to be good enough at that one thing to be useful for anything in the game world (ex. if you start EE splitting training between iron mining and sword fighting you're going to be an inferior miner and inferior fighter to everyone else).
There are ceilings to every path like that, so when it's done or you get 80% of the functionality, that is when you diversify sideways into other paths.
I still fear that everybody will be an efficient crafter far into the game. I would love to have crafters being able/known to craft better stuff than people who go out and fight aswell. I would consider a buff that gets stronger the longer you have only commoner/expert/artistocrat skills slotted or something. Making you better at what you do if you stick with it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still fear that everybody will be an efficient crafter far into the game. I would love to have crafters being able/known to craft better stuff than people who go out and fight aswell. I would consider a buff that gets stronger the longer you have only commoner/expert/artistocrat skills slotted or something. Making you better at what you do if you stick with it.
If a person spent 2.5 years mastering their combat class and another 2.5 years mastering crafting I'm okay with them being just as good at crafting as the person that spent their first 2.5 years mastering crafting.
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I would like to see a system by which +Crafting Speed will hasten your queue times for crafting while worn, and decrease it down to the base speed your current Slotted Abilities and equipment support.
I am thinking something along the lines of the "Haste" stat from early/mid WoW days, with a diminishing returns value to prevent someone from equipping a full t3 Crafting (SUPER expensive, but equally valuable) set in every slot and banging out +3-5 weapons in an hour each.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@hark I agree. But If it does indeed take 2.5 years to master crafting I think someone who does only crafting for 5 years should still have some kind of edge over someone who just finished their 2.5 years of training.
There would be nothing else to learn after 2.5 years. I guess you have a 2.5 year head start in business establishment and you have a reputation as a paragon crafter while the other guy is struggling with rusty iron daggers. In terms of skill advancement. A full time crafter might instead spend the next 2.5 years mastering harvesting to support their crafts, but that actually seems less productive as a good crafter would spend their time on crafts and buy quality materials from specialists.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think there should be a mechanical benefit to staying purely crafter after you've maxed the skills. There will be the benefits of the networks established and maintained, the amount of money you'll have, etc. Don't think a further reward is warranted, especially since other roles wouldn't get additional benefits after max training.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the idea of continued practice after full training providing an edge, but it will already provide a certain edge in terms of reputation. If I've been doing nothing but crafting for 2.5 years and am good at it, people will know that. My name may appear in a lot of places that the person just catching up doesn't have. I will also have spent that 2.5 years acquiring recipes that may be less available to someone coming along later and building contacts with harvesters and merchants for the best materials.
Just as the adventurer will know where the monsters are and harvester will know where the good ore is, each dedicated crafter will have some experience advantages