Goblinworks Blog: More Info on the Crafting System


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:

I guess I have one minor concern. When you die in PFO, you most likely lose everything on you other than threaded items. It has also been stated that the vast majority (maybe even all) of your equipment is crafted items. To me, this necessitates a crafting system that can very rapidly produce gear because players will constantly need to be replacing it.

But items taking a day or even longer to make sounds slower than your average crafting system, and when there's no "centralized" auction house, like in WoW, it limits availability of goods even further.
Now, if the "day+" time scale only applies to a small variety of things, my concern is moot since those are more likely to be the threaded items. If virtually everything is in the "hours+" timescale, will there be enough supply to meet constant demand?
I'm sure we'll find the right balance as EE goes on, but that's just my first impression.

My guess is that crafting time will partially determine the price of an item. As such, the more expensive items are more likely to be threaded and need to be replaced frequently.

But I also share your worries, and a day+ seems a bit high. Especially for trying to get that first set built for your company, if 50 people need them...

Goblin Squad Member

Any chance of a rough flow-chart?

Goblin Squad Member

Nightdrifter wrote:

Rough numbers on that -100 spell penalty (assuming you're fighting an opponent of equal skill):

*your attacks will do ~85% of max damage on average with no penalty.
*with a -100 penalty to attack rolls that's instead a tad over 50%.
*taking the ratio gives roughly 0.6, ie. your spells are about 60% as effective wearing heavy armor as they are without armor.

Anyone want to bet Nightdrifter knows the PFO math better than at least one Goblinworkser?

Goblin Squad Member

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<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
... will there be enough supply to meet constant demand?

I see it as yet another way to encourage players to pursue meaningful PvP. I'm curious how many Crafter Queues a good Crafting Facility will be able to manage. I can easily see some Settlements being really dedicated to producing lots of inventory, and I love that we'll be able to customize our Settlements like that.

Mmmmm... meaningful decisions!

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Roughshod wrote:

For obtaining materials, is the only way with mob drops? Are there any material nodes like an iron deposit or an herb - that are collectible in a non-combat way? (Bulk resource not counted, as those are not used in this crafting process? or...?)

You can tell who the pure ACE characters are in this thread because we're going "only monster drops? AAAH ONLY monster drops??"

They actually specified in the video that materials could be obtained from resource collection, too. Recipes are another matter, of course.

Hmm ok, I re-listened to it a few times and you're correct. They cover it at the beginning then only talk about the creature drops/chests after that, so I was concerned. Whew!

The recipes aren't a big deal IMO, those can be dropped wherever. Just COD them to my post office box in Brighthaven... :P

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
...yappy gnome/halfling craftsman being ferried around towns by his big half-orc bodyguard...

I feel a "Groot and Rocket Raccoon" joke coming soon.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
<Magistry> Toombstone wrote:
... will there be enough supply to meet constant demand?

I see it as yet another way to encourage players to pursue meaningful PvP. I'm curious how many Crafter Queues a good Crafting Facility will be able to manage. I can easily see some Settlements being really dedicated to producing lots of inventory, and I love that we'll be able to customize our Settlements like that.

Mmmmm... meaningful decisions!

I really, really hope so. I really, really want settlements to be able to focus hardcore on a specific thing, and be the very best at it, to the expense of everything else.

Goblin Squad Member

Roughshod wrote:
...pure ACE characters...

ACE = Armed Combat Enthusiast?

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I swear, if I'd gotten Destiny's Twin, I'd totally be making a craftshobbit right now. As-is, I'll probably get my main leveled a fair bit, then swap and level a second character a small ways. Gotta be pragmatic.

There was someone on the forum looking to sell their kickstarter pledge. That would have Destiny's Twin included. I would suggest finding their thread and seeing if still available. If it is not, you could also make your own thread stating your interest in acquiring it. I'm sure there are some guild and buddy people who had a friend bow out that would love to sell Destiny's Twin to you. It's not too late for you!

Goblin Squad Member

I’ll be honest, the more I think about it, having to attain the recipes through monster drops isn’t that big of an issue since you only need to do it once (for each recipe). I don’t mind trading/buying through other players. Besides, that’s what also being part of a guild (company) is for. :)

Although I hope the more basic recipes can even be bought or maybe even learned through advancing your craft. And save the more popular/higher with the recipes through monster drops.

Goblin Squad Member

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:
Roughshod wrote:
...pure ACE characters...
ACE = Armed Combat Enthusiast?

Aristocrat/Commoner/Explorer. The 3 non-combat classes/roles that we know about so far.

Goblin Squad Member

Regarding time required to craft an item and market availability, if you look closely at the crafting screenshot there is a x15 next to the sword in question.

I imagine that what that means is that you can 'batch' items together; that is, it takes 1 Day +4 hours to create X Longswords.

Obviously, let me know if I am misconstruing this, Stephen.

PS. I also think it may be this way because that is how it works in Eve.

Goblin Squad Member

Roughshod wrote:
Just COD them to my post office box in Brighthaven... :P

Hey, hopefully we'll be crafting together! I'll be in Brighthaven as well. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Notmyrealname wrote:
More screen shots of the crafting please!!! I will beg if it helps, Please please please, PLEASE...

I don't think that was even an in-game screen shot. Just an artist rendition of what it might look like. They were making a sword but a lot of the info was for armor.


Nihimon wrote:
Stephen Cheney wrote:
Being more knowledgeable about the creature lets you get better loot.
Is there going to be a benefit if multiple Characters have the appropriate Knowledge Skill? Or is it sufficient to have a single Character with a very high Knowledge Skill?

Will specialization in knowledge skills be viable? e.g. adventuring parties might seek out such a specialist to optimize their looting?

Sovereign Court Goblin Squad Member

Hmm, looking back at Gimme the Prize, on the Game Design board we see "T2 x5", "T3 x250". In this week's video Stephen mentions that T3 is about 1/250th as common as T1, so I'd take that to mean that T2 is about 1/5th as common as T1. He used the word "items", but maybe he means "resources".

Putting that together, that means for every 250 T1 resources, there's 50 T2, and 1 T3. In percentages: ~83% T1, ~16.6% T2, ~0.3% T3.

(Numbers are rounded, so they don't add up to 100%!)

Goblin Squad Member

I get that after you have learned a recipe it is consumed. But can the crafter then write that recipe out again for someone else but still retain the recipe? Possibly at an even greater XP cost?

Goblin Squad Member

Lots of talk about levels again...

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
(You can still add the Print Pack Add-On to your Kickstarter Pledge in the Pledge Manager on paizo.com if you have not already finalized your Pledge!)

Ok. I STILL cannot access the add on pack from either the paizo page or the goblinworks page. I have money left over from the kickstarter that is supposed to go towards getting the print copies of the emerald spire and the flip mats. And i have not finalized my pledge.

I will be VERY unhappy if I do not get a print copy of these.

Goblin Squad Member

HWC, I'd send a note to customer.support@goblinworks.com. Ryan'll probably find a way to straighten things out.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Holy cover!

Okay, I need to read pledges more carefully. I didn't realize the hardcover add-on covered both the Map-Packs and a copy of the book with just a fancy cover.
Honestly, I thought it was just going to be a pricey book, possibly one that might not be available to everyone. A Paizo.com Exclusive or something.
(I was a little surprised when Paizo made the Emerald Spire such a talking point for 2014.)

Glad I paid the money. That's a slick cover. That and the map-packs will push this from a "should GM" to a "must GM".

Question:
When do we get access to the PDFs? Subscribers normally gain access when packages ship; are we being treated the same?
Are we getting our books at the same time as the regular June shipments?
Will we be able to add products to this shipment, placing things in the sidecart?

Goblin Squad Member

hewhocaves wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:
(You can still add the Print Pack Add-On to your Kickstarter Pledge in the Pledge Manager on paizo.com if you have not already finalized your Pledge!)

Ok. I STILL cannot access the add on pack from either the paizo page or the goblinworks page. I have money left over from the kickstarter that is supposed to go towards getting the print copies of the emerald spire and the flip mats. And i have not finalized my pledge.

I will be VERY unhappy if I do not get a print copy of these.

Since it's supposed to happen on the Paizo side of things, I would recommend contacting customer.support@paizo.com

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah, I do not see the Print Pack addon either while my account is not finalized yet. I can still add/remove addons that I already bought, but those are the only addons on the list right now.

Here's my take on this:

I did "finalize" this account during the pledgedrive in may/June 2013, even though this obviously did not disable the pledgetool entirely. During this phase (post June 2013) you could remove an addon that you had bought, and if this got you a positive balance, you all of a sudden could see *all* addons again, and purchase them. This was not supposed to happen so a few months ago they disabled the pledgetool again, until its final incarnation, with the 7 tabs. In this incarnation, the "remove addon" trick does not work anymore, you can still do that, but a positive balance will not bring back the entire addon list anymore. You can still add more addons of the ones you already purchased though.

Once you finalize this version(after paying), you will not be able to change anything anymore.

So I am thinking the peeps who actually *did* come by in May/June 2013 and did the "first finalization" then, do not see the Printpack or other addons that they did not buy, anymore, even though they have not done the *final* finalization yet.....

This is my guess, could be something else!


Amberfire wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
I swear, if I'd gotten Destiny's Twin, I'd totally be making a craftshobbit right now. As-is, I'll probably get my main leveled a fair bit, then swap and level a second character a small ways. Gotta be pragmatic.
There was someone on the forum looking to sell their kickstarter pledge. That would have Destiny's Twin included. I would suggest finding their thread and seeing if still available. If it is not, you could also make your own thread stating your interest in acquiring it. I'm sure there are some guild and buddy people who had a friend bow out that would love to sell Destiny's Twin to you. It's not too late for you!

Nah, if I had that kinda money to throw around, I'd just buy a second subscription. I'll play the long game. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon, Jazzlvraz

Yeah, I've sent an email to customer service. I've also posted in the customer service forum and here. Hopefully, THIS time they will fix it. As I mentioned elsewhere I had over $100- in unused kickstarter money that I was going to throw to add-ons.

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah, like an idiot I did what we were told to do, and finalized in June of 2013. A year later, I have money and would LOVE to be able to add the print pack. Is there any way to unfinalize my account? I really hate that it feels like we're shut out because we did as we were asked to do and finalized our order based on a 'do it by this date' when if we had just ignored it, we'd have been able to tag more stuff on later. :(

Goblin Squad Member

My worry about the crafting system.

Launch day.
Best crafted gear. Tier 3.
Best quest gear. Tier 4.
Best dungeon gear. Tier 5...dungeon drops needed for Tier 3 crafting.
Best raid gear. Tier 6...raid drops needed for Tier 3 crafting.
Best PvP gear. Tier 7.

Every 6 months, +1 Tier to all above except crafting. Saw this in every MMO ever.

If on the other hand, crafting keeps up with the other categories:
Regarding a crafting cap...I'm actually for the idea of having learning key 'special' 'legendary' recipes incur an XP penalty. To a maximum of say X% (TBD) or so many slots/disciplines. After all those slots are full, you cannot learn anymore. This way, no single craftsman can learn everything.

On the need for a money drain...I'm actually okay with the idea of having all superior grade (say Tier 2+) materials degrade. Maybe have "indestructible" as a special enchant/mat requirement that costs you XP with a 1/week/month cooldown or something.

I'd also like to put my vote in that all Tier 1 and under gear not be subject to degradation...that way, when you get ganked (which will happen) it won't make you fall so far behind that you don't spend the next several weeks just getting back what you lost which is likely subject to even more ganking/death-loops since you are now under-geared.

But this is all speculation...looking forward to the playtesting :)

Goblin Squad Member

Rerednaw wrote:

My worry about the crafting system.

Launch day.
Best crafted gear. Tier 3.
Best quest gear. Tier 4.
Best dungeon gear. Tier 5...dungeon drops needed for Tier 3 crafting.
Best raid gear. Tier 6...raid drops needed for Tier 3 crafting.
Best PvP gear. Tier 7.

Every 6 months, +1 Tier to all above except crafting. Saw this in every MMO ever.
...

I know what you speak of, but I'm kinda doubting the same will happen here. I believe the tools/implements (/weapons/armor) will not continue to scale up, at least not for a very long time.

The quality of the weapons seems to be based on the keywords entirely. And the keywords themselves seem to do absolutely nothing - they only enable your character to do certain things with those items. And how powerful those actions are seem to be completely dependent on your character's abilities.

In other words, if a ubernewb gets her hands on a high-end, tier-3 weapon, she'll not be a sudden goddess. She'll have to train to be able to use it effectively.

Goblin Squad Member

There's nothing *except* crafted gear in PFO, so you'll have few worries.

CEO, Goblinworks

This is not the best place to talk about problems with the Pledge Manager. This would be a better place to post those comments.

The best way to get your problem addressed is to email customer.service@paizo.com for problems with the Pledge Manager, or customer.support@goblinworks.com for problems with the transfer process and goblinworks.com accounts.

Last comment - it seems odd to me that you would finalize a pledge with a positive balance. But that's just me.

CEO, Goblinworks

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Rerednaw wrote:

My worry about the crafting system.

Launch day.
Best crafted gear. Tier 3.
Best quest gear. Tier 4.
Best dungeon gear. Tier 5...dungeon drops needed for Tier 3 crafting.
Best raid gear. Tier 6...raid drops needed for Tier 3 crafting.
Best PvP gear. Tier 7.

Other than beginner gear, you don't get gear from loot or monster drops. All the gear in the game is crafted by characters.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Rerednaw wrote:

My worry about the crafting system.

Launch day.
Best crafted gear. Tier 3.
Best quest gear. Tier 4.
Best dungeon gear. Tier 5...dungeon drops needed for Tier 3 crafting.
Best raid gear. Tier 6...raid drops needed for Tier 3 crafting.
Best PvP gear. Tier 7.

Other than beginner gear, you don't get gear from loot or monster drops. All the gear in the game is crafted by characters.

LOVE this, and cannot have someone repeat it enough!

Soooo excited!

Goblin Squad Member

(quoted from the blog)

Ryan Dancey wrote:
(You can still add the Print Pack Add-On to your Kickstarter Pledge in the Pledge Manager on paizo.com if you have not already finalized your Pledge!)

Unlucky me, I finalized my pledge a loooong time ago, and the print version of the Emerald Spire looks gorgeous ! Is it possible add the print-add on another way ? (since I can infer from what you said that you still some have unsold copies of the special version for backers)

Moonbird

Goblin Squad Member

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Stephen Cheney wrote:
... We currently have no concept of soulbinding; if you find something you can't use, you're completely free to sell it. ...

This has to be one of the sexiest things I've heard all day.

...
...
Please don't tell my wife.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:
Other than beginner gear, you don't get gear from loot or monster drops. All the gear in the game is crafted by characters.

For some reason I thought that player crafted gear which had been lost (e.g. due to player death) might occasionally drop from monsters/loot. Must have mis-remembered something.

Goblin Squad Member

Moonbird wrote:

(quoted from the blog)

Ryan Dancey wrote:
(You can still add the Print Pack Add-On to your Kickstarter Pledge in the Pledge Manager on paizo.com if you have not already finalized your Pledge!)

Unlucky me, I finalized my pledge a loooong time ago, and the print version of the Emerald Spire looks gorgeous ! Is it possible add the print-add on another way ? (since I can infer from what you said that you still some have unsold copies of the special version for backers)

Moonbird

I'm somewhat interested myself. I probably could have gotten my DM to go halvsies on this.

Sounds like (especially based on Lisa's reactions) we might not get this option unless we took the leap of faith back when they first offered this.

Goblin Squad Member

CBDunkerson wrote:
Ryan Dancey wrote:
Other than beginner gear, you don't get gear from loot or monster drops. All the gear in the game is crafted by characters.
For some reason I thought that player crafted gear which had been lost (e.g. due to player death) might occasionally drop from monsters/loot. Must have mis-remembered something.

I just suggest that they put it in all the time. Brings in some of the excitement of looting without destroying the player crafted portion of the game.

Goblin Squad Member

CBDunkerson said wrote:
For some reason I thought that player crafted gear which had been lost (e.g. due to player death) might occasionally drop from monsters/loot. Must have mis-remembered something.

That was a discussion about a cool feature Ultima Online had. Humanoid NPCs could loot player's corpses and if you killed that NPC you'd get your loot back.

EDIT: Other players could kill that NPC and get your looted items too.

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Nihimon wrote:
Is there going to be a benefit if multiple Characters have the appropriate Knowledge Skill? Or is it sufficient to have a single Character with a very high Knowledge Skill?

Each player can open a chest and get rewards based on his or her own participation in the encounters/escalation. We should probably go into more detail about the spoils system eventually. But, no, you cannot open a chest for someone else (you open that chest for you); high Knowledge helps improve your personal rewards.

Elminster000 wrote:
On Spellcraft being used to provide enchantments during the crafting process, will there be any other skills that provide additional options during crafting?

Not initially, possibly long term.

Quote:
Also, will Spellcraft be used for anything else, or will it simply be a requirement for some parts of the crafting system?

It'll accumulate other features based on its tabletop functions as we get the mechanical support for it. Initially, it'll primarily be used for crafting.

Harad Navar wrote:
I get that after you have learned a recipe it is consumed. But can the crafter then write that recipe out again for someone else but still retain the recipe? Possibly at an even greater XP cost?

Maybe. We'll have to see what the rarity concerns are for that.

CBDunkerson wrote:
For some reason I thought that player crafted gear which had been lost (e.g. due to player death) might occasionally drop from monsters/loot. Must have mis-remembered something.

Players have asked for it. We have not promised anything of the sort to the best of my recollection :) . Lots of design and programming implications of getting creatures to loot that we're not anywhere near ready to unpack.

Dark Archive Goblin Squad Member

Since the item is mentioned in the Blog I'll ask here. Any idea when kickstarter backers will be getting access to there Emerald spire PDF'S?

CEO, Goblinworks

@Kevin Mack - shortly. Probably coincident with the shipments of the physical products.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:
CBDunkerson wrote:
For some reason I thought that player crafted gear which had been lost (e.g. due to player death) might occasionally drop from monsters/loot. Must have mis-remembered something.
Players have asked for it. We have not promised anything of the sort to the best of my recollection :) . Lots of design and programming implications of getting creatures to loot that we're not anywhere near ready to unpack.

Yes, I can see where that could get complicated.

Though it could probably be simplified by having a pool of 'lost stuff' that could then randomly turn up as loot... rather than tracking where each individual item is at all times. So maybe a player got killed by a goblin, but then later someone else recovers their lost sword from an Ogre in a different area (hey, monsters can trade, or rob each other, too). So when you die some stuff stays on the corpse, some is destroyed, and some is either 'carried off by the NPCs/monsters that killed you' or looted by the player(s) who did so.

Goblin Squad Member

At a minimum, NPCs caring 'capture loot' will not beMVP. I suppose there is a statement that might open this to a crowd forged option, but that would be very distant for most of us. Go with a buddy and don't die. (and bring a healing potion along).

Would potions and scrolls be crafted by a crafter or a 'crafting sideline" for clerics and wizards?

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Monsters dropping recipes is odd, but it's a nice and simple way of allowing people to gain access to recipes.
And it's easy for them to change that later and allow crafters to scribe recipes to sell, after all the recipes are known.

Goblin Squad Member

Recipes are the PHAT LOOT of PFO.

Goblin Squad Member

Jester David wrote:

Monsters dropping recipes is odd, but it's a nice and simple way of allowing people to gain access to recipes.

And it's easy for them to change that later and allow crafters to scribe recipes to sell, after all the recipes are known.

Hmm, it was my understanding that the recipes would be more likely to show up in the "chests". Might make a significant difference in flavor.

Goblin Squad Member

This is nearly the most exciting blog yet! The most exciting being the first blog saying that there will be PFO. Can't wait to start crafting and supplying for my company, plus some on the side so that we might make fair trade income. The one question I have for Ryan or any of the building Goblins is this. Is crafting going to be an over all skill set or is it going to be broken down to armorer, metalsmith, jeweler, alchemist, and so on?

Goblinworks Game Designer

In the short term, recipes will be on the bodies (and you'll have to fight over them with your party as to who gets them), salvage items and other miscellaneous stuff will be in the chests and yours and yours alone. This has to do with some limits on the different looting systems (and their access to linked loot tables) that hopefully won't be too hard to tweak in the not too distant future.

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:
In the short term, recipes will be on the bodies (and you'll have to fight over them with your party as to who gets them), salvage items and other miscellaneous stuff will be in the chests and yours and yours alone. This has to do with some limits on the different looting systems (and their access to linked loot tables) that hopefully won't be too hard to tweak in the not too distant future.

Thanks for the perfect clarification. :)

I guess monsters just like shiny parchment? ;)

Goblin Squad Member

For me.

I like the fact that crafting takes time, and that the best stuff takes several days to craft. This adds value to me since it means that players have a meaningful choice as a crafter and as the user. for a crafter the choice is "do i make two of item X or one of item Y" and for the user its "if i get into a fight can I afford to replace my gear easily". So replacing a full T3 set of gear can equate to a week or more of crafting.

It also means that the top tier items will hold their value better since it will be hard to mass produce those items without significant investment. Those settlements who pump out that gear will have invested greatly in the number crafters (on the downside of having other things) and high level facilities.

I would say that learning a crafting recipe should cost more than a token amount of XP and be based on the tier of the item. It shouldnt be so bad that a crafter cant learn most or all of them, but it should be enough to discourage people who are not dedicated crafters from buying them all and mass learning recipes.

I do have a large concern though. That is that T1 materials, like copper, will end up the way of other games where once you pass that tier you will never use those materials again. I hope the system makes it so that there will always be demand for low tier materials. Because if thats not the case, then you might as well get rid of having those things since they will never be used.

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