Goblin Squad Member
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I would really like anyone reading this to take a moment and think about the title.
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Are we, as a community, heading in the right direction? I have seen emphatic assertions about how not-caustic we are. I have also seen 10 pages of vitriol and filth spewed out between factions at the behest of just a couple of individuals.
That was just yesterday.
We are frequently seeing entire threads derailed by people expressing opinions they have no business bringing into that particular discussion, just because they can or because they feel justified in the damage they are about to do. This has happened in several places and affected multiple groups and individuals. Not simply benign off topic chatter, this is the variety of 'we are going to drag this thread through the mud', knockdown, dragout, Chris has to get involved acid that hurts us, as a community, all of us.
That was this week.
Is this where we want to be heading? Engaging every troll with a contentious opinion? It has gotten so bad that Keovar felt it necessary to make a thread just to get people to laugh. We argued there too.
We all need to start thinking about whether whatever it is we have to say is going to in any way be good for the community, or if it is going to do nothing more than contribute to the problem. All of us. I have seen some people I have a great deal of respect for say things they absolutely should not have. I have seen people I have zero respect for stir up the general populace into a fervor. I have to stop reading some threads just to keep myself from expressing some rather unkind opinions about the contributions of some individuals. Bringslite has had to check me once even, fortunately in time to limit the damage I was about to do.
Just think about it.
Ryan has made it very clear how valuable the community is to the future of the game. Right now, that is not a pretty future.
I can already imagine a few people ready to lash out about being expected to keep their mouths shut. Suffice to say there is a few worlds' worth of difference between healthy discussion and knee-jerk reaction without due consideration to what is being said, both in what we have read and what we say in response.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We were just discussing this on Team Speak....
It shouldn't be an excuse, but we are far far over due for a Blog post, and not only that a lot of questions and support for clarification have gone unanswered. We are in a state of limbo at the moment, and in this state a lot of people have nothing to do, but "feed the troll."
I agree with you Darcnes, and a lot of people should be better and rein in themselves, but I just want to say.....
Still not as bad as the Darkfall community forums, nor EVE, or any other Sandbox forums I have visited/been a part of. A lot of you bring up the word toxic a lot, and while there are a couple people that continuously attempt to stir the pot, this group of people, this community, is far better than any other one I have been a part of.
P.S. Lahn, see, I said "a part."
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is this where we want to be heading? Engaging every troll with a contentious opinion?
I saw those arguments.
I didn't engage.
See the problem? The members of the community doing what you say we should be doing are effectively 'invisible' on that issue. Which creates the impression that the community is argumentative... because that's the only side you see.
I've been in toxic communities before. This isn't one. No, it isn't happiness joy and light 24/7, but you aren't going to get that so long as you allow humans to participate. Accept that. Try not to get angry. Consider what you can do (or not do) to make the situation better.
Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. Be the candle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed - let's try and keep this a welcoming place. There was a reason I hibernated for 15 month as I didn't wanted to be dragged into politics for politics sake. After all - how much could you do in all of this time apart of verbal feuding.
I hope with the game finally getting closer that we will see more positive posts. I'm (again) quite excited about the game and would like to keep that excitement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dear Darcnes,
It is my desire not to fuel unhealthy fires that finds me not replying often to threads unless I first feel it is my place to do so (depends on the topic), and second, that I have a positive contribution to add to the discussion.
To refrain from commenting when I don't feel I have a dog in the race at hand, and then only when I can productively contribute to the debate, are my two self-imposed measures of restraint. I hope no one mistakes this restraint for a lack of interest in the conversation itself. I read nearly every thread, but choose to respond based on the criteria above.
Thank you for starting this thread.
Hobs
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks for posting this, Darcnes.
This forum community really is great, but it's always had it's share of incendiary personalities.
Lately, I've found myself constantly refraining from posting in threads because it's become obvious that a few persons are simply trying to sow discord, and that addressing them any further is simply helping them in their goal by increasing the number of off-topic/useless posts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As pleased as I am with how well-mannered the threads are, I find myself highly aware that no-one in the PFO has yet ha the opportunity to kill-or-be-killed-by anyone else. That is very likely to alter the tenor dramatically if we don't form a strong tradition of not letting it happen.
In the end, each of us has a choice of how, and when, we reply. Fingers crossed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If we will always consider other people as being more important than ourselves we won't respond to them in ways that indicate we don't care if our personal relationship with that person suffers. In other words , people are more important than the game or any issue we disagree about. We need to care about each other more than we care about the game issues and everything can be worked out. Or we could be one of those toxic forums were they try to shut down others and drive them away, no thanks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... Zerg forces can dominate...
I don't think that's an accurate description of PFO.
given zerging has been confirmed as a viable strategy, it will be happening on launch day. Just like every other MMO that has this "feature".The zerg gankers go CE quickly, get kicked out of their Settlements, and have to deal with all the consequences. Pretty soon "zerging" becomes non-fun. Viable targets are harder to find, they find themselves being hunted constantly, and the territory where they can operate gets squeezed.
A bunch of 1 day old PCs are not going to be able to be more than a nuisance to a competent small group of older PCs. Constantly creating new characters to zerg won't reward you with ganks - or it won't reward you with many ganks, and most of the people you manage to gank will have little or nothing of value on them so there's no reward for the gank except for the lulz.
My experience is that when people are constantly getting killed, they get angry and quit. We want the people who get angry and quit to be the people causing the problem in the first place.
Nothing in the "throwaway alt zerg" strategy helps them.
RyanD
I agree with you on the rest. It's going to be a serious challenge, and I obviously don't know the best way to confront that challenge. But I will say that taking the attitude that "if they didn't want us to do it, they'd make it against the rules" significantly increases that challenge.
This is what I call "everything not forbidden is permitted" thinking and it's one of the reasons that Sandbox MMOs become toxic. The idea that there are "no rules" leads the 5% of the population who are the seeds of toxicity to behave in ways detrimental to the good order of the game and to the benefit of the community.
We're pushing back on those assumptions and telling people not only will there be rules but that "everything that is not forbidden is permitted' thinking is wrong in the context of our game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Goons weren't scary in EvE because they were a zerg. There were plenty of those around before the bees arrived on the scene. The Goons were scary in EvE because they were a zerg that had as much, if not more, coordination than every single other group in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thank you for the responses. I really appreciate those that have taken this to heart.
It may very well be that the adage "if you have nothing nice to say..." will not be enough for us. If the only people driving threads are the ones doing so out of spite or anger, we simply have to do our best to step in and change the tone, collectively.
Caldeathe's point about this being a pre-PVP community is fairly important, we have good habits that need to be developed.
Again, thank you, for taking a moment to stop and consider.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Goons weren't scary in EvE because they were a zerg. There were plenty of those around before the bees arrived on the scene. The Goons were scary in EvE because they were a zerg that had as much, if not more, coordination than every single other group in the game.
.... And they were effective. If they were not effective, they would have failed quickly.
They also changed a common misconception at the time, that the learning curve for PvP was beyond the reach of the one month trial.
These were the positives of Goonswarm's introduction to EvE. This is not yo say that they brought about some negatives as well, but those were mostly out if game (which in some ways is worse).
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Goblin Squad Member
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It has not been bad at all here, certainly not to the point where people are worrying about the community. I think most of us have had those moments where they hit "post" and then wake up the next morning and think, maybe I didn't need to post that or maybe I could have been more careful with my tone.
It happens. It's just normal. We don't even have a game yet in which to interact, and interacting on the boards is all we have right now. And as opinions go, they tend to differ.
Someone mentioned that it's not nearly as bad here as on other sandboxes, but it's not nearly as bad here as on most theme parks either.
I'm not quite sure how in-game zerging came into the discussion but anyone claiming that zerging won't be effective, I'll believe it when I see it. Maybe formations will be more important than numbers, to a point, but there isn't much reason to assume that the forces with greater numbers won't be using formations effectively too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This community might go the route of all others as they grow and expand to in-game activities. There will certainly be a lot more instances of ways to get hurt feelings or come out with a sense that you have been abused. That leads to complaining as well as epeen boasting and cruel rebuttal to complaint.
On the other hand, if there ever was a chance for a non toxic "core community" to shape and guide itself as it expands, this is it. This is a chance that doesn't come along often in MMORPGs. A model for slow steady growth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... there isn't much reason to assume that the forces with greater numbers won't be using formations effectively too.
That's true, and Ryan made the same point. I think the key aspect of a "zerg" is that it's a large group of low-level or low-skilled players. Once they invest in the training required to be effective in Formation Combat, I'm not sure the term "zerg" still applies. But yes, numbers matter a lot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah, I see what you mean. I typically think of "zerg" meaning "to overwhelm with numbers" but not necessarily meaning low levels, or alts, or poorly organized. I do like the idea that an unorganized or unskilled zerg might be ineffective, though. Apologize if this is getting a little off-topic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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With the exception of a few outliers, I've been impressed with how civil and interesting the threads have been on these boards. Considering how dedicated the majority are to the well being of the game, it makes sense, though.
It can't hurt if everyone makes a special effort to not feed the trolls and remain positive, though. Nice post!
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Goblin Squad Member
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If this community were not as good as it is, and did not have the potential it does, there would have been no point to posting this. =)
It is because of these things that a small bit of conscientiousness on everyone's part can go a long way towards course correction. We will probably have need of such a thing from time to time.
The introduction of new players to the community and the example of zerg tactics are somewhat analogous. As neither is likely to outnumber a united community at large, we retain the ability to shape the outcome of either scenario.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're entering a video game culture. It never has been and never will be a pleasant neighborhood. Despite what Mr. Dancey may think, games focused on PVP will attract and concentrate the worst elements of said culture, because it's an avenue for people to indulge the worst parts of themselves with no real consequence.
This game isn't going to be any different than Lineage, or EVE Online, or any other PVP game where PVP means getting actual gain at the expense of the loser.. Whatever artificial constructs Goblinwerks may put up to try to constrain from nasty behavior. Gamers will find ways around them out of sheer orneriness. It's what gamers do.
That may well be, but this thread is primarily about the community that has developed here. Lots of toxic people in the game doesn't mean that these forums have to follow suit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A note for me personally--as a lead "voice" for the Keepers of the Circle, I do not comment often because I do not want anyone to misconstrue my opinion on a matter with the official stance of the Circle as a whole. If I speak, it will be respectful. I will try to see both (or more) sides of an argument. And if my comment will not add anything positive or helpful to a discussion, I simply won't say it. I strongly feel that Belief informs Action (and in this instance, written words). The Internet as a whole is such a magnet for hostility because people can hide behind the screen and post what they actually Believe, while in real life they repress comments and actions (obviously, not all do). My actual Belief, as a person rather than a Character, drives my words here and elsewhere. If ever I seem out of line with a statement, call me on it. I'm man enough to admit my faults and make it right. A lot of folks might say "it's just a game" but unfortunately I believe this and other games are venues for people to act on their true Beliefs*. The fact that this turns so negative so often is a failure of Society as a whole, and so beyond the scope of this forum or game. But here, in this forum, I'd encourage folks to really think about what you Believe as a person, as a human being, and then determine if what you are saying and more importantly the manner in which it's said supports the Belief you want to hold.
* An important note--when Players are portraying Characters that are Evil, I understand and appreciate the distinction and also know that such Players can do this in a way that is still respectful of other Players. I have high hopes for our current Evil and otherwise "bad guy" leaning crowd in this regard. You will set the tone for how others see Evil in this game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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With regards to zerging vs formations my bets would be toward the skills needed for formations being fairly hard to get for someone of the CE alignment which is what I think those players are going to end up being. I think that's a point the developers have made several times that if you play that way you will gimp yourself, opportunities for developing these characters will be much thinner on the ground than we are familiar with seeing. Now if we saw "skill scrolls" being the method of advancement then I could see caravans loaded with them going to the hills guarded by legions of newb alts to be distributed to the CE warlords planning the end of civilization... And I think the developers are on top of seeing no such thing happen. I played EVE I was a carebear and I never found a way to leave high sec that didn't end up with me reviving at my clone. I don't think this game will work that way...
I think he does understand that. He's saying there will be "toxic" people in the game, but that the forums should be different.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A note for me personally--as a lead "voice" for the Keepers of the Circle, I do not comment often because I do not want anyone to misconstrue my opinion on a matter with the official stance of the Circle as a whole. If I speak, it will be respectful. I will try to see both (or more) sides of an argument. And if my comment will not add anything positive or helpful to a discussion, I simply won't say it. I strongly feel that Belief informs Action (and in this instance, written words). The Internet as a whole is such a magnet for hostility because people can hide behind the screen and post what they actually Believe, while in real life they repress comments and actions (obviously, not all do). My actual Belief, as a person rather than a Character, drives my words here and elsewhere. If ever I seem out of line with a statement, call me on it. I'm man enough to admit my faults and make it right. A lot of folks might say "it's just a game" but unfortunately I believe this and other games are venues for people to act on their true Beliefs*. The fact that this turns so negative so often is a failure of Society as a whole, and so beyond the scope of this forum or game. But here, in this forum, I'd encourage folks to really think about what you Believe as a person, as a human being, and then determine if what you are saying and more importantly the manner in which it's said supports the Belief you want to hold.
* An important note--when Players are portraying Characters that are Evil, I understand and appreciate the distinction and also know that such Players can do this in a way that is still respectful of other Players. I have high hopes for our current Evil and otherwise "bad guy" leaning crowd in this regard. You will set the tone for how others see Evil in this game.
Exceptionally well said, Erian. I look forward to meeting you in the future!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think he does understand that. He's saying there will be "toxic" people in the game, but that the forums should be different.The forums ARE different. But I think he has an unreasonable expectation as to how much the character of the forum community will determine that of the game post release.
You do not seem to be of the community, but maybe you will be buying in.
This community will be a fraction of the EE. The "dream" is this community will shape the first month of EE. Those that buy in will shape middle EE to the point that they will effect OE. This happens not by force of will of persuasion but by crowd forging. EE is about trying to break the machine.
Some will play rough to determine how far it should go. It is necessary.
8-)
You do not seem to be of the community, but maybe you will be buying in.
I'm just gonna say, this isn't relevant to anything. It doesn't matter if LazarX is active here or not, and it oughtn't be brought up like it in any way cheapens his points. I doubt that's what you intended, but it's the vibe that sentence gives off. :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think he does understand that. He's saying there will be "toxic" people in the game, but that the forums should be different.The forums ARE different. But I think he has an unreasonable expectation as to how much the character of the forum community will determine that of the game post release.
No. KC is exactly right. My one and only statement is that what happens in the PFO world does not HAVE to affect how we treat each other outside the game (i.e. on these forums.) It is perfectly possible for our characters to be worst of enemies in game while we as civilized human beings recognize that is a game and remain friendly and maintain an air of camaraderie here. It won't necessarily be easy, but it is perfectly possible.
I have exactly zero expectation that keeping these forums friendly will stop people from rending each other for fun and profit in game.
And, to be balanced, I think that LazarX is saying that the majority of folks ingame will not be friendly OOC, regardless of how nice the forums might be. They won't even use the forums. They'll be, well, PKers.
Nah, I'm just saying, they're PKers. They're a diverse crowd that tends to contain a lot of jackasses. It also contains some pretty neat people. The mix of folk you meet playing Team Fortress 2 is fascinating.