Goblin Squad Member
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It's true, I've heard once or twice of a PKer who wasn't a nice fellow. But the best defense against a rabid Pker? A friend who's a Pker! I'll protect your smurfs if you keep that smurfberry juice flowing. What do you call smurf spirits anyhow? Smurits?
Smurfs call it "Smirf-n-off".
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Goblin Squad Member
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And, to be balanced, I think that LazarX is saying that the majority of folks ingame will not be friendly OOC, regardless of how nice the forums might be. They won't even use the forums. They'll be, well, PKers.I never took any issue with what was being said about how PFO will pan out in game. I took issue with
But I think he has an unreasonable expectation
when I had displayed no such expectation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is most definitely going to be different cultures in game than out. We will have to do what we can to curtail toxic behavior in either place, but at least the forums are moderated and if it comes down to it trolls can be ignored and flagged if they cross the line.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is most definitely going to be different cultures in game than out. We will have to do what we can to curtail toxic behavior in either place, but at least the forums are moderated and if it comes down to it trolls can be ignored and flagged if they cross the line.
Thank you Darcnes for creating this thread.
I think it is healthy for the community to discuss this topic on a "meta level".I have to admit i was "confused" about some of the recent posts i read while lurking on these forums. But even if some people seem to try to "stir up the pot" as you said, i never felt like ignoring posters on this forum.
Even when discussions get heated and people are clashing the tone keeps mostly polite and civilized.
In ESO, which i am playing at the moment, i missed "forum-ignore" on day 1.
So kudos to all of you. Please keep up the "good fight".
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's the thing that you don't understand. The community that's developed here is going to be a tiny minority in the online game at best. The majority of the players will be video gamers, many of which will have had nothing to do with the message board community, and many of them will have never picked up a d20 in their lives, and have no intention to do so. They'll be there because of the draw of a new PVP mmorg. Or the game will attract so little of an audience that it will sputter out and die.That may well be, but this thread is primarily about the community that has developed here. Lots of toxic people in the game doesn't mean that these forums have to follow suit.You're entering a video game culture. It never has been and never will be a pleasant neighborhood. Despite what Mr. Dancey may think, games focused on PVP will attract and concentrate the worst elements of said culture, because it's an avenue for people to indulge the worst parts of themselves with no real consequence.
This game isn't going to be any different than Lineage, or EVE Online, or any other PVP game where PVP means getting actual gain at the expense of the loser.. Whatever artificial constructs Goblinwerks may put up to try to constrain from nasty behavior. Gamers will find ways around them out of sheer orneriness. It's what gamers do.
That's the usual way of things.
I hope settlements form webs that interconnect that ripple effects of "hostile actions" around the links in the web that self-regulates at a larger scale. That is the hope to see if a different outcome can occur. I think building that will take time, hopefully EE will produce elegant webs and OE we'll see.
I'm enjoying the LandRush! map on goblinworks a lot, my focus has shifted there more than the forums now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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in reply to LazarX' concern for the "gamers" in this game.
YOU have to remember that this game is slowly going to be increased in size, not the standard "open the floodgates" that every other MMO does (with maybe one or two exceptions recently).
In either case, while we will be the minority by the end, for the moment we are the majority, and we will stay the majority for the first couple "releases" and as more "new" players enter the game (at great expense to themselves, so i imagine the cancer toxic pker baddies will wait til it is cheaper) we, the current majority, as well as GW will be able to shape them in the image we want. They will become the majority, then the next batch will arrive and the process will be repeated.
further, GW holds the rights to kick the crap out of their game anyone who THEY FEEL IS GREIFING. It is stated, has been stated, and will be stated. It is written down, copyrighted, and more. While they can't be everywhere, greifing involves victims, and victims don't like being victims (for the most part) and as such will kindly inform GW about certain unsavory types, who will promptly get the boot. The Rep system is in place for the same reason. I'd imagine a low rep-account with a few marks on his/her report card will be easy for the GW compys to find.
In either case, for the next year or so until 2016 when this hits its full open, there will be small releases into the population pool (well, "small") and by nature of these controlled releases we will be able to, as a whole, shape them as we want and have GW prune off the parts that need it.
so just sit back, relax, and enjoy the ride man.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think he does understand that. He's saying there will be "toxic" people in the game, but that the forums should be different.The forums ARE different. But I think he has an unreasonable expectation as to how much the character of the forum community will determine that of the game post release.
I think it's unreasonable to expect the culture on the forums to be nicer than the culture in game. Traditionally forums are the nastiest place of any online community. I see no reason to believe that will be different in PFO longterm.
If you want to make a difference in a games culture you do it in-game. The most essential area for controlling that culture is the starter area because the culture of the starter area largely determines who will stay and who will leave. That determines the nature of your population long term.
In a game without teleportation, those positioned closest to the starter areas will have the greatest influence over what kind of game those new players experience, while those father away are much less relevant.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The two nastiest forum environments I've been a part of were SWG post-NGE debacle and the Helm's Deep Beta forums for LOTRO. These forums haven't gotten anywhere close to those levels.
In any group of people, there are going to be some strong personalities, opinionated personalities, people who lack tact or consideration, and some outright jerks. This comes with the territory of online gaming. Best thing to do is not to feed the trolls. Second best thing is to think before you post and edit your thoughts to avoid being rude or hostile while still getting your opinion across.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Rep system is in place for the same reason. I'd imagine a low rep-account with a few marks on his/her report card will be easy for the GW compys to find.
Just to clarify, the reputation system is not a measurement of griefing in any shape or form. It is (for better or worse) a measure of how aggressive a character is in game from a PvP perspective.
While some griefers may have a low reputation score, it is just as possible they have a high reputation score. Similarly, a character with a low reputation score might be the most helpful and 'nice' character in the game, but they just participate in aggressive PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Rep system is in place for the same reason. I'd imagine a low rep-account with a few marks on his/her report card will be easy for the GW compys to find.Just to clarify, the reputation system is not a measurement of griefing in any shape or form. It is (for better or worse) a measure of how aggressive a character is in game from a PvP perspective.
While some griefers may have a low reputation score, it is just as possible they have a high reputation score. Similarly, a character with a low reputation score might be the most helpful and 'nice' character in the game, but they just participate in aggressive PvP.
Here's a recent statement from Ryan that I think conveys useful information about what Reputation is:
It seems to me that there's a disconnect in the analysis of the Reputation system.
It is not a failed or broken system if someone figures out how to get around it and be a jerk without taking rep hits. Indeed, I expect that will happen continuously from the start and never end.
It succeeds if the system has the effect of inducing most players to play the game the way it is intended - by not engaging in meaningless PvP, and thus being less jerk-like. The fact that the system can be avoided or abused doesn't mean it's not working. It just means it's not working perfectly and nothing in an MMO works perfectly. No game design survives contact with real humans.
If such tactics remained unaddressed, the system would fail in the long term because the people who want to be jerks will learn how to use those exploits and then take advantage of them and the people who take their cues from the jerks about what is and is not acceptable would follow them and then the game would degenerate.
Ergo, we will have an endless arms race between the exploitive jerks and the developers who will find and address the exploits. Seeing the behavior is not tolerated by the developers, we believe the community will take that as a cue not to follow the jerks into a degenerate game condition and resist the temptation to do so. And the incremental successes the developers have in the arms race with the jerks will keep the number of jerks and jerk-like behavior to a minimum of some kind.
I have said before and said often that solving this problem will not require a magic bullet and there is no such bullet. It requires a multilayered, multidimensional approach with both in game and out of game feedback loops and reinforcements to promote and sustain a healthy community. We won't consider something "a failure" unless it actually fails - not because someone, somewhere, once in a while, avoids it.
I think it's fair to say that Reputation is largely a measure of how often you attack Characters that are not flagged Hostile to you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So the more non-combatants talk smack, earning them deaths, the less reputation PKer's will receive as they'd be going after the equivalent of non-flagged players?
But you see, popular community opinion (at this point) is that PKing people who provoke you verbally either in-game or on the forums is toxic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So the more non-combatants talk smack, earning them deaths, the less reputation PKer's will receive as they'd be going after the equivalent of non-flagged players?
There will be lots of folks who find ways to skirt the rules to cause grief. Reputation, as Ryan said above, is not a perfect system. It's simply an inducement to pursue more meaningful PvP. I have no doubt that beatdowns will occur for a variety of reasons, smack-talk surely included.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So the more non-combatants talk smack, earning them deaths, the less reputation PKer's will receive as they'd be going after the equivalent of non-flagged players?But you see, popular community opinion (at this point) is that PKing people who provoke you verbally either in-game or on the forums is toxic.
That's funny, some of my earliest posts on these forums were about how non-consensual PvP was necessary in my ideal game because it allowed players to deal directly with situations where someone was being verbally abusive to them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As Audoucet said: why have so many conflicts--large and small--begun over only words? Is it the "if I don't fight back now, I'll appear weak and have to fight anyway later" thing?
That's always seemed, to me, specious logic at best, and excuse for a fight one wants anyway at worst.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying how it is. There is a type of gamer who believes they can say/accuse/harass whoever they want where, as long as they don't "cross a line" for GW, will believe there are no repercussions for their actions.
To me, there's no difference between attacking someone on the forums and attacking them in-game. And if I get attacked, I normally don't engage in the forum drama, I simply explain my position in-game with the blade of an axe.
Different strokes for different folks, the variety of gamer types and styles is robust.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I will invite everyone of good will to not respond to this tentative to put back on track UNC drama. If you read UNC threads, it is obvious that victimisation is their number one recruitment tool. It's just meant to create buzz. Even fake accounts like Notmyrealname are obvious attempt to artificially create controversy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not that it is healthy (always) but anyone that claims their emotions don't go for a ride in PVP are only fooling themselves.
In many ways the PVP is fully underway here already. I don't like that some might get carried from the forum to the game, but there is always some feeling of satisfaction if you have a nice "backstory" to your actions.
Just don't make it your whole story or your target's whole story. Get it out and get on...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to note it is a common TEO/TSV tactic to withdraw from controversy over a point when they are clearly beaten. I suppose it's understandable to not want to draw more attention your own failings. Claims of taking the higher road do offer a great excuse to behave in such a manner.
But anyone taking the high road does not loudly and publicly proclaim they are doing such.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not that it is healthy (always) but anyone that claims their emotions don't go for a ride in PVP are only fooling themselves.
In many ways the PVP is fully underway here already. I don't like that some might get carried from the forum to the game, but there is always some feeling of satisfaction if you have a nice "backstory" to your actions.
Just don't make it your whole story or your target's whole story. Get it out and get on...
Absolutely. Once the debt has been paid, it's a non-issue. In fact, crossing a name off the Book of Grudges is one of my favorite things.
EDIT: Yeah yeah, Book of Grudges isn't Pathfinder cannon... but the idea is sound and I'm havin' one. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Absolutely. Once the debt has been paid, it's a non-issue. In fact, crossing a name off the Book of Grudges is one of my favorite things.Not that it is healthy (always) but anyone that claims their emotions don't go for a ride in PVP are only fooling themselves.
In many ways the PVP is fully underway here already. I don't like that some might get carried from the forum to the game, but there is always some feeling of satisfaction if you have a nice "backstory" to your actions.
Just don't make it your whole story or your target's whole story. Get it out and get on...
That is exactly how I read your posts Kard. I didn't mean to imply anything different. :)
It is nice to have a reason to want someone's head. If they have offended you in this "Quasi-Role Play", so much the better! Whether we admit it or not, this is pre stage RP story here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If someone wants to run their mouth at me... *shrug* Until they back it up by taking a swing at me, I'll be quite comfortable ignoring them. Hopefully when they do, they will bite off more than they can chew and I can then go back to ignoring them. Even if they get the best of me, I still ignore them in the future and use it as a benchmark to determine whom I wish to associate with in-game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If someone wants to run their mouth at me... *shrug* Until they back it up by taking a swing at me, I'll be quite comfortable ignoring them. Hopefully when they do, they will bite off more than they can chew and I can then go back to ignoring them. Even if they get the best of me, I still ignore them in the future and use it as a benchmark to determine whom I wish to associate with in-game.
Perfectly legit style and probably soothing to be around.
**Glances left at Spikey Golgothans. Glances right at hungry panting Hounds.**
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Goblin Squad Member
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So the more non-combatants talk smack, earning them deaths, the less reputation PKer's will receive as they'd be going after the equivalent of non-flagged players?There will be lots of folks who find ways to skirt the rules to cause grief. Reputation, as Ryan said above, is not a perfect system. It's simply an inducement to pursue more meaningful PvP. I have no doubt that beatdowns will occur for a variety of reasons, smack-talk surely included.
Perhaps, but can you imagine trying to write the code to recognize the reason? Calling someone names will not flag hostility...killing someone not hostile lowers Reputation. Therefore, killing someone who has only verbally abused you is rep-lowering RPK.
@Andius, agreed...to me that post implies condemnation of those actions. I cannot speak to intent because I did not write it, but I suppose it is possible that it was an honest non-loaded question.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As Audoucet said: why have so many conflicts--large and small--begun over only words? Is it the "if I don't fight back now, I'll appear weak and have to fight anyway later" thing?
That's always seemed, to me, specious logic at best, and excuse for a fight one wants anyway at worst.
I think it has more to do with the Dangers of Letting Others Define You. I struggled mightily when The Seventh Veil was fairly new to counteract the fairly consistent message - from folks oustide T7V - that we were a pacifist, non-military guild. I've had similar struggles with folks who tried very hard to create the impression that we are not interested in PvP. If you don't respond when others characterize you, that characterization tends to stick. Yes, this opens you up to any troll who wants to "punch up", but I trust the community in general to see what's plain for all to see.
I try to be kind and helpful. Some people apparently think being kind is a sign of weakness. Some people probably think if you're not kind to everyone, all the time, then you shouldn't call yourself kind. I don't have any problem calling people out for bad behavior. I try to do it gently at first, but I'm adamant about some things. I won't rehash the instances where I've adamantly called someone out for bad behavior, but it's only ever been directed at a handful of folks who - by the way they talk - ought to have skin that's plenty thick. I have no doubt whatsoever that I've made enemies of those folks, and I had little doubt that their allies considered me an enemy as well. That doesn't really bother me, I'm a big boy and this is a game about conflict. So yeah, I try to be kind and helpful, but don't expect me to roll over for anybody, and I'm not going to hide behind a sock puppet to say what I think - I'm perfectly comfortable saying it loud and clear with my name attached to it - the same name I'll be using for my main character in-game for what that's worth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon - So are you saying this posts carries no unspoken condemnation of the behaviors you describe?
I have absolutely zero problem with players targeting other players in-game due to hostility rising from these forums. As I said, repeatedly, I thought I remembered a prior statement of UNC Policy explicitly opposing such things.
I have absolutely zero problem with Guilds being in a state of War with other Guilds, irrespective of their in-game manifestations. I also have zero problem with it if a Guild on these forums already considers itself at War with another Guild on these forums.
I asked simple questions because that's what they were. If I was trying to convey any condemnation in those linked questions, I'd have said "I think that's wrong", because I don't have a problem saying what I think, as some might have noticed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As Audoucet said: why have so many conflicts--large and small--begun over only words? Is it the "if I don't fight back now, I'll appear weak and have to fight anyway later" thing?
That's always seemed, to me, specious logic at best, and excuse for a fight one wants anyway at worst.
I think it has more to do with the Dangers of Letting Others Define You. I struggled mightily when The Seventh Veil was fairly new to counteract the fairly consistent message - from folks oustide T7V - that we were a pacifist, non-military guild. I've had similar struggles with folks who tried very hard to create the impression that we are not interested in PvP. If you don't respond when others characterize you, that characterization tends to stick. Yes, this opens you up to any troll who wants to "punch up", but I trust the community in general to see what's plain for all to see.
I try to be kind and helpful. Some people apparently think being kind is a sign of weakness. Some people probably think if you're not kind to everyone, all the time, then you shouldn't call yourself kind. I don't have any problem calling people out for bad behavior. I try to do it gently at first, but I'm adamant about some things. I won't rehash the instances where I've adamantly called someone out for bad behavior, but it's only ever been directed at a handful of folks who - by the way they talk - ought to have skin that's plenty thick. I have no doubt whatsoever that I've made enemies of those folks, and I had little doubt that their allies considered me an enemy as well. That doesn't really bother me, I'm a big boy and this is a game about conflict. So yeah, I try to be kind and helpful, but don't expect me to roll over for anybody, and I'm not going to hide behind a sock puppet to say what I think - I'm perfectly comfortable saying it loud and clear with my...
I like you just the way you are!
In all seriousness, I think we (TSV) might have a few surprises in regards to PvP.
The Rep system is in place for the same reason. I'd imagine a low rep-account with a few marks on his/her report card will be easy for the GW compys to find.Just to clarify, the reputation system is not a measurement of griefing in any shape or form. It is (for better or worse) a measure of how aggressive a character is in game from a PvP perspective.
While some griefers may have a low reputation score, it is just as possible they have a high reputation score. Similarly, a character with a low reputation score might be the most helpful and 'nice' character in the game, but they just participate in aggressive PvP.
This. I fully expect that my own character will have an extremely low Reputation.
Perhaps, but can you imagine trying to write the code to recognize the reason? Calling someone names will not flag hostility...killing someone not hostile lowers Reputation. Therefore, killing someone who has only verbally abused you is rep-lowering RPK.
Say What You Will, I Live Free. This does not protect subjects from the consequences of their words. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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This. I fully expect that my own character will have an extremely low Reputation.
Strangely, I have no issue with the threat of low-rep. Glory!
Low rep is just the losers being jealous of my badassitude.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ravenlute and KC, you must both come to the Keeper's of the Circle Settlement as soon as possible so that I may buy you drinks. Heck, Kobold's initials are even secretly code that he's one of ours already. Hmm, that's probably secret. Should check on that with our Ring of Shadow folks.
You make me laugh. Constantly. And that's good for the State of the Community.
