Goblin Squad Member
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We might be adding another signatory here soon enough, just working out some details with them.
Also, in the other arguments I ask that both sides please stop it, no matter who brought it where. There is enough blame to go around for all parties involved.
The proverbial line in the sand seems to have been drawn, but like any great fiction, what we see in front of us, is never what is really going on. Sometimes the good guys end up being the bad guys, sometimes the bad guys end up being the good guys, and sometimes no one is truly enemies, because the true enemy is manipulating both sides.
And, thank you Nihimon, I appreciate the sentiment. I just try and expedite things towards a common goal/understanding.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... like any great fiction, what we see in front of us, is never what is really going on. Sometimes the good guys end up being the bad guys, sometimes the bad guys end up being the good guys, and sometimes no one is truly enemies, because the true enemy is manipulating both sides.
I was just making a point along these lines on T7V's forums :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know how to play in an open world PvP MMO, where trusting too much is your enemy and everyone is a potential attacker / victim.
Now people are going to think you WANT to take that attitude that makes those other games unpleasant to the majority here and smear it all over Golarion as thick as possible.
The energy in those games isn't built in, it' is whatever people put into it, and that depends largely on who the individual people are. If you're trying to recreate the EVE atmosphere, well, why leave EVE?
Different people, different energy.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Nihimon hasn't forced any Roseblood Accord or T7V member into any action, nor can any member do the same to him.
This is obvious to anybody genuinely interested in the truth; look back at all the friends of Nihimon that publicly posted their disagreements with him in this and other threads, sometimes very passionate disagreements.
The UNC withdrew their application willingly when they realized they would not be able to extort money from members in exchange for not raiding their caravans; stop pretending to be wounded. The 'extra' questions asked of you were necessary, apparently, because the UNC did not have the same idea of what the Accord is as every member then and since. That was the fear when the questions were asked, and it turns out that fear was justified.
Please, stop trying to manufacture and dredge up events long past.
Please ignore Xeen with extreme prejudice. He has a reputation.
Factually false, your visitors to this thread can actually read I assume. Perhaps you should not pretend they can't. There are enough of third party and members of your own group that stated we were treated unfairly, and that too is in this thread.
Maybe I should stop assuming you can read? Or maybe you can't comprehend what you have read?
We withdrew our argument to join, when it became blatantly obvious that there would be an ever shifting goal post for us to meet.
The Accord's definition of "positive game play" is not supported the the design goals of PFO. This is not Sim City / Farmville, it is an Open World PVP MMO where settlement vs. settlement combat over limited resources is the content.
If you refuse to believe that is true, wait until OE proves you all wrong.
You never had to ask to join, you just had to agree. And when you say that positive gameplay is not supported the the design goals of PFO, you reinforce that you do not agree.
If you honestly change your mind about positive gameplay being possible and desirable, please do come back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Iron Gauntlet agrees to the Roseblood Accords, as they are in line with our deep love of Abadar. We pledge our full support.
Welcome! Glad to have another sign on!
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Goblin Squad Member
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My support few away as soon as we were questioned by Nihimon. We had a list of questions we had to answer and then back up... etc. Of course, we did not see anyone else who joined after go through that.
Yes, you were questioned, partly because you issued a list of the conditions under which you would join, partly because of your self-created reputation. There were very legitimate concerns about how your proclaimed style of play was going to work in the context of the Accord's mutual benefit clause as well as the definitions/limits you proposed for positive gameplay where UNC was concerned.
If you had instead come to us with Bluddwolf's most recent declaration along with simply stated open support and reiterated it in the context of what would have been markedly fewer questions (lacking a list of conditions which with to contend), you would have met with an almost entirely different reception.
There is no point in pretending that various members of UNC and several members of the Accord that are prominent in the community have had much more personal disagreements, but the tone of Bluddwolf's most recent declaration and what you came to us with are vastly different. I hope you can appreciate this from where we stand.
Are you guys sure he is not the leader of the RA? Cause he sure acted like it when I looked at this thread last.
Yes, absolutely, 100% sure. There were many questions and concerns, all equally valid, all equally voiced, though from what I have seen, not all equally addressed. Nihimon's were the ones that seem to have dominated most of your attention. This is not indicative of where power lays, but where you were focused.
Also, taking the Pax discussion here was kinda dumb. He derailed the crap out of your thread.
I happen to agree with your outlook on bringing an unrelated PAX discussion into the RA thread. I am sure you have seen my responses thus far.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's a curious question for everyone in the Roseblood Accord. Let's say a Chartered Company has signed the Roseblood Accord and they start a Settlement. Another Chartered Company is interested in joining the Settlement. Would they have to sign the Roseblood Accord to live in that Settlement? (This is already assuming that the new company is a good fit for working with the sponsoring company to the Settlement and any other existing companies living there).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's a curious question for everyone in the Roseblood Accord. Let's say a Chartered Company has signed the Roseblood Accord and they start a Settlement. Another Chartered Company is interested in joining the Settlement. Would they have to sign the Roseblood Accord to live in that Settlement? (This is already assuming that the new company is a good fit for working with the sponsoring company to the Settlement and any other existing companies living there).
I'm just speaking from my own opinion and I'm definitely not in a leadership position in TSV or the Roseblood Accord. But I would say it would not be required for a Chartered Company to sign the RA. However saying that, I would hope that any Settlement that accepted a CC into their Settlement would make sure that the CC had similar positive ideals as them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not speaking officially for TEO or for the nascent Brighthaven settlement, but: I'd expect that we might not require a company joining us to sign on to the Accord. A refusal to at least accept the merits of the accord might indicate that the company is actually not a good fit. If they starting working deliberately at odds with the Accord, against the wishes of the settlement, matters would obviously come to a head.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's a curious question for everyone in the Roseblood Accord. Let's say a Chartered Company has signed the Roseblood Accord and they start a Settlement. Another Chartered Company is interested in joining the Settlement. Would they have to sign the Roseblood Accord to live in that Settlement? (This is already assuming that the new company is a good fit for working with the sponsoring company to the Settlement and any other existing companies living there).
My answer is an unequivocal, definitive no.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I actually think it depends on the game mechanics a bit too.
If membership lends itself to increased DI, not only should you require them to sign on to the RA, but also make sure they will be staying quite a while. It would be serious if a group left, because they ended up not meshing well with you, and take precious DI needed either in surplus or for a project.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Here's a curious question for everyone in the Roseblood Accord. Let's say a Chartered Company has signed the Roseblood Accord and they start a Settlement. Another Chartered Company is interested in joining the Settlement. Would they have to sign the Roseblood Accord to live in that Settlement? (This is already assuming that the new company is a good fit for working with the sponsoring company to the Settlement and any other existing companies living there).
That would be up to the settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would they have to sign the Roseblood Accord to live in that Settlement?
Hey Cougar, I can tell you that such a thing is a definitive no and is in practice already. Dagedai lists no such requirements for joining, though we, Audacity, will uphold positive gameplay wherever we reside.
That said, we will certainly broach the subject in the long run with each new ally. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Walk me through this. How would one handle a trade agreement if not all companies agree to the Accord? It was my understanding that the accord does impact settlement actions as each settlement is expected to contribute something to the Accord. Now perhaps it's mistaken, but specifically as an example I was told Audacity supplies trade route, TEO supplies military and TSV supplies knowledge. Is this not the case? Seems odd to facilitate such an agreement with not all the companies in said settlement involved. Just trying to figure it out for our own consideration in the future. Thanks so much.
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I wouldn't say the Accord afford any "responsibilities" towards trade, going to war together, or the like. Contribution towards the Accord would look more like playing the game normally, rather than setting ourselves up to mechanically connect with each other.
As far as trade agreements go those will be handled by the parties involved at the time, as will any discussion of possible official ties toward one another from Companies/Settlements.
The loose "player-centric" focus of the RA is the main motivation for accepting it's terms, as anything more formal such as having expectations of groups would be MUCH more involved, complicated, and open to being shot full of justificatory holes.
Does that help explain some things Quietus?
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Goblin Squad Member
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To my mind--and everything following is from my perspective alone--Roseblood is an agreement about attitude, not a directive toward or against specific action. We've no strict requirements, and ask only that signatories agree with the precepts in the Accord itself: "to promote by example the goals of positive gameplay and the mutual success of its members".
Many of us, perhaps all, have taken to heart Ryan's thoughts about not having delineations, because those can all-too-easily become asymptotes where someone can stay just that *tiny* bit on the other side of a line while crying "Look! I'm doing nothing wrong!". We want the Accord to be simple, straightforward, and unabashedly positive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not every citizen in Philadelphia is a Mason. Nor is every citizen a Catholic. Yet the community of Philadelphia gets business done.
The North American Trade Agreement between, for example, the U.S. and Mexico isn't the concern of every citizen and State of both countries. Why would it be any different in Golarion? In fact there are many who disagree vehemently with NAFTA, yet those people are not denied citizenship unless they commit a felony.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wouldn't say the Accord afford any "responsibilities" towards trade, going to war together, or the like. Contribution towards the Accord would look more like playing the game normally, rather than setting ourselves up to mechanically connect with each other.
As far as trade agreements go those will be handled by the parties involved at the time, as will any discussion of possible official ties toward one another from Companies/Settlements.
The loose "player-centric" focus of the RA is the main motivation for accepting it's terms, as anything more formal such as having expectations of groups would be MUCH more involved, complicated, and open to being shot full of justificatory holes.
Does that help explain some things Quietus?
Yes. I think I understand. The only real mechanical benefit the groups have agreed upon is to help each other recruit members for the Land Rush and a non-aggression treaty in game? All other agreements will be hashed out on an individual basis? Trying to figure out specific game mechanics. Like my questions about the coalition.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not every citizen in Philadelphia is a Mason. Nor is every citizen a Catholic. Yet the community of Philadelphia gets business done.
The North American Trade Agreement between, for example, the U.S. and Mexico isn't the concern of every citizen and State of both countries. Why would it be any different in Golarion? In fact there are many who disagree vehemently with NAFTA, yet those people are not denied citizenship unless they commit a felony.
I think using hard real world comparisons is a messy topic to get into when addressing alignment, settlements and agreements personally.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not every citizen in Philadelphia is a Mason. Nor is every citizen a Catholic. Yet the community of Philadelphia gets business done.
The North American Trade Agreement between, for example, the U.S. and Mexico isn't the concern of every citizen and State of both countries. Why would it be any different in Golarion? In fact there are many who disagree vehemently with NAFTA, yet those people are not denied citizenship unless they commit a felony.
This also isn't real life, there are no lasting negative consequences, which makes agreeing to things like the RA, before you join a settlement, imperative.
I realize, that most of the people in the RA are some what democratic, like their autonomy, and try not to dictate to others, but bringing in people that can't at least agree to the RA is setting yourself up for a long term headache.
I see the RA as slightly more than friendship, less than an alliance. An agreement to not only promote positive game play, but to help each other for mutual benefit. What happens if you bring in groups that help a specific settlement, but end up harming others around it? You can't point to the RA and say, this is what we stand for, because they don't stand for it.
Just a couple of things to think about...
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Goblin Squad Member
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The North American Trade Agreement between, for example, the U.S. and Mexico isn't the concern of every citizen and State of both countries.
Ahem! Considering that NAFTA replaces the Canada-U.S. Free trade agreement and includes three countries.....
Cast your vote Here for Elkhaven in the landrush!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Companies and individuals join RA, not settlements. Some such groups have domain over settlements to greater or lesser degrees.
While enforcing RA acceptance might make sense for Brighthaven and Phaeros where they may wish to be selective in their membership, it is quite the opposite for Dagedai and I believe also for <insert Magistry settlement name>. We are in the thick of things, rather than being somewhat isolated and exerting stronger control over the surrounding territory.
Dagedai actively encourages anyone with a stake in trade to set up shop there, which would not be possible if we were to exclude others. The only thing this means for Audacity is that not everyone around them is committed to the same ideals. That is fine.
Suffice to say that the Accord mentions nothing of enforced settlement ideals, nor should it. If a founding group wishes to enforce such a filter, they need simply list it in membership terms for all to see. We do not.
To each their own. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The North American Trade Agreement between, for example, the U.S. and Mexico isn't the concern of every citizen and State of both countries.Ahem! Considering that NAFTA replaces the Canada-U.S. Free trade agreement and includes three countries.....
Cast your vote Here for Elkhaven in the landrush!
I imagined everyone knew that Canada is in North America: no slight to Canada was intended.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's a curious question for everyone in the Roseblood Accord. Let's say a Chartered Company has signed the Roseblood Accord and they start a Settlement. Another Chartered Company is interested in joining the Settlement. Would they have to sign the Roseblood Accord to live in that Settlement? (This is already assuming that the new company is a good fit for working with the sponsoring company to the Settlement and any other existing companies living there).
Ultimately, there's no "enforcement mechanisms" on anything in the Roseblood Accord. There's no one in authority to tell a Settlement they can't force a Company to sign the Roseblood Accord as a pre-condition of joining that Settlement, and there's no one in authority to tell a Settlement they must.
There might be some in-game alliance, or even a Nation, that includes members of the Roseblood Accord, but that will depend on the game mechanics to support such a thing, and on how each Settlement perceives their best interests at that time.
The purpose of this announcement was quite simply to reach out to groups who shared our values and let them know where TEO and T7V had placed our Settlements, and invite them to settle near us if they wanted to. It quickly became apparent that there were groups who really wanted to be friendly with us but didn't feel a need to settle in the same area, and that is perfectly fine.
I've often likened the whole process to "making friends on the playground". Extending that metaphor a bit, it might be like a couple of friends going into high school and telling their extended network of friends "Hey, we're joining the Swim Team". It doesn't mean anybody has to join the Swim Team in order to stay friends, and it doesn't mean that everyone who does join the Swim Team with them has to devote their entire lives to training to swim in the Olympics.
It really is as simple as it sounds.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nihimon started a new thread for just that question. This one refuses to die out :-).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I Armenfrast of Taldor, Guardian of the High Vault, respectfully informs you that the chartered company "Les Compagnons" agrees to the spirit of the so named RoseBlood Accord and will examine with benevolence any request of alliance received from another member of the Accord.
New members are welcomed as far as they wish to bring the light of civilization to the wilderness, to help educate all in the benefits of law and properly regulated commerce. The order expects his followers to obey all meaningful laws, but not those which are ridiculous, unenforceable, or self-contradictory.
The order is also a great proponent of peace, as war inevitably leads to the degradation of trade and the stifling of prosperity for the general public. It advocates cautious, careful consideration in all matters, and frowns on impulsiveness, believing that it leads to the encouragement of primitive needs. The order discourages dependence on government, believing that wealth and happiness should be achievable by anyone with keen judgement, discipline, and a healthy respect for all sensible, just laws.
With all my consideration
Armenfrast
Sponsor
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Goblin Squad Member
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We are very pleased and honored to list Les Compagnons (pretend I said that with a "bon accent") as a signatory to the Roseblood Accord. Welcome!
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Goblin Squad Member
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This also isn't real life, there are no lasting negative consequences, which makes agreeing to things like the RA, before you join a settlement, imperative.
I realize, that most of the people in the RA are some what democratic, like their autonomy, and try not to dictate to others, but bringing in people that can't at least agree to the RA is setting yourself up for a long term headache.
I see the RA as slightly more than friendship, less than an alliance. An agreement to not only promote positive game play, but to help each other for mutual benefit. What happens if you bring in groups that help a specific settlement, but end up harming others around it? You can't point to the RA and say, this is what we stand for, because they don't stand for it.
Just a couple of things to think about...
It's this bolded section which I still don't understand about the Roseblood Accord; still getting hung up on that "mutual success" clause. Some here say that the clause basically amounts to nothing; some (such as Cheatle here, sorry to pick on you) seem to think it means you can't take activities which will harm settlements other than your own (so, for example, warring with other RA members would be out). It seems every member of the Accord has a different idea of what working towards mutual success looks like.
So my questions are:
Is that clause intended to be nebulous? If so, what was the intent in including it?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Speaking only for myself, but as a proponent of that clause, I appreciated its ability to be interpreted by the acceptor, without concern about other readers. The deepest essence of the Roseblood Accord--once again, to me--is internal to each individual endeavouring to uphold it.