Can we please get an FAQ posted for damage dice increases?


Rules Questions

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
havoc xiii wrote:
Hmm how does Gravity Bow come out on this or lead blades?

Exactly the same as any other size increase - should use the first two rules in most cases.


havoc xiii wrote:
Hmm how does Gravity Bow come out on this or lead blades?

it works the same 1d8 goes up 1 size which is 2 steps as it's medium and over 1d6. Two steps higher is 2d6 so it's the same as before.

I'm pretty sure with this result nothing is changed and everything works the same.


Ahh understood.


Maybe a little worse for Small characters?

FAQ wrote:
If the size increases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and increase the damage by two steps. If the initial size is Small or lower (or is treated as Small or lower) or the initial damage is 1d6 or less, instead increase the damage by one step.

Maybe there's a nuance Im missing.

EDIT:: (Probably buried in the progression, in all likelihood).

Im betting that 'initial' applies progressively as you advance up the chart, and not to the initial base size.

EDIT 2:: and confirmed later!

Paizo Employee Designer

Chess Pwn wrote:
havoc xiii wrote:
Hmm how does Gravity Bow come out on this or lead blades?

it works the same 1d8 goes up 1 size which is 2 steps as it's medium and over 1d6. Two steps higher is 2d6 so it's the same as before.

I'm pretty sure with this result nothing is changed and everything works the same.

Yup, the massive massive majority of things work the same. I have heard that there are some goofy damage entries in some pretty obscure places that would be changed, but you should generally expect that your usual spells and abilities still do the same thing. It's a FAQ to clarify it in one ruleset.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Adept_Woodwright wrote:

Maybe a little worse for Small characters?

FAQ wrote:
If the size increases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and increase the damage by two steps. If the initial size is Small or lower (or is treated as Small or lower) or the initial damage is 1d6 or less, instead increase the damage by one step.
Maybe there's a nuance Im missing.

It's fine, though there might be a nuance that needs clarifying. I think you need to apply the rules to each size increase one at a time to get the right result.

Small longbow does 1d6 damage. Apply Gravity Bow. Increase 1 goes to 1d8 (1 step). Increase 2 goes to 2d6 (2 steps).

The rule would seem to indicate that it would go to 1d10, since the "initial size" is Small or lower.

The Exchange

Little puzzled by the "and so ons."

Quote:
If the die type is not referenced on this chart, apply the following rules before adjusting the damage dice. 2d4 counts as 1d8 on the chart, 3d4 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers of d4. 1d12 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers of d12.

So the intention is to find the point on the chart with the same maximum damage? 4d4 = 2d8 (16 max)? 5d4 = 2d10 (20 max)? 7d4 = ?

2d12 = 4d6? 5d12 = 10d6?

Quote:
Finally, 2d10 increases to 4d8 and decreases to 2d8, regardless of the initial size, and so on for higher numbers of d10.

Does 4d10 increase to 6d8 (+2) or 8d8 (double)?

Yes, I realize most of these silly examples don't have any weapons that actually do that damage, just trying to get a handle on it.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Sweet! This works! Though, I do say that I think my chart looks cooler. ;-)

Paizo Employee Designer

Chemlak wrote:
Adept_Woodwright wrote:

Maybe a little worse for Small characters?

FAQ wrote:
If the size increases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and increase the damage by two steps. If the initial size is Small or lower (or is treated as Small or lower) or the initial damage is 1d6 or less, instead increase the damage by one step.
Maybe there's a nuance Im missing.

It's fine, though there might be a nuance that needs clarifying. I think you need to apply the rules to each size increase one at a time to get the right result.

Small longbow does 1d6 damage. Apply Gravity Bow. Increase 1 goes to 1d8 (1 step). Increase 2 goes to 2d6 (2 steps).

The rule would seem to indicate that it would go to 1d10, since the "initial size" is Small or lower.

"Or is treated as Small or lower"—after the first increase, it's treated as Medium. An earlier version used "effective size of Small or lower" rather than "or is treated as Small or lower," but it was determined that the new version is easier to understand.

Paizo Employee Designer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Belafon wrote:

Little puzzled by the "and so ons."

Quote:
If the die type is not referenced on this chart, apply the following rules before adjusting the damage dice. 2d4 counts as 1d8 on the chart, 3d4 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers of d4. 1d12 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers of d12.

So the intention is to find the point on the chart with the same maximum damage? 4d4 = 2d8 (16 max)? 5d4 = 2d10 (20 max)? 7d4 = ?

2d12 = 4d6? 5d12 = 10d6?

Quote:
Finally, 2d10 increases to 4d8 and decreases to 2d8, regardless of the initial size, and so on for higher numbers of d10.

Does 4d10 increase to 6d8 (+2) or 8d8 (double)?

Yes, I realize most of these silly examples don't have any weapons that actually do that damage, just trying to get a handle on it.

The "and so ons" were due to focus groups suggesting that algebraic formulae were going to be worse than using the ones that actually show up as examples instead. As to the specifics, 4d8->4d10->8d8 and 2d12=4d6, 5d12=10d6 is correct.


Awesome!

Now I'm kinda sad we won't hit 600 FAQ requests, though... :(

The Exchange

Mark Seifter wrote:
The "and so ons" were due to focus groups suggesting that algebraic formulae were going to be worse than using the ones that actually show up as examples instead.

Yah, us engineer types memorize formulae and do math every time instead of learning the precise numbers. Sometimes quicker, sometimes longer. But we're in the minority nationwide :)


Thank you ^_^ !


Thanks guys. I know a transmuter this will help.

Grand Lodge

7 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The shared effort of Paizo, and it's community, to solve a problem, is what I am pleased the most with.

This, to me, sets a remarkable precedent.

Paizo Employee Designer

4 people marked this as a favorite.

My ear is always open to what you guys are saying, and I'll always take your suggestions to the PDT. In the end, there are a lot of factors behind the magic that leads to a final FAQ, but a crucial part of that process is hearing what you guys have to say.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Glad to here!:)

Now, about those unwritten rules....

Sczarni

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber

*blinks*

*rubs eyes*

*blinks again*

*does a little dance*

Liberty's Edge

Yay!

Thank you to the PDT and to everyone on this thread who helped contribute.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

I am disappointed in the lack of angry comments about this FAQ. Paizo forums, where is your vindictiveness and spite?

(just kidding)


If a series of size increases takes the damage off the end of the chart (carnivorous crystal + improved natural attack + strong jaw comes to mind) should one assume a similar progression for each effective step or do things cap at 16d6?

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
If a series of size increases takes the damage off the end of the chart (carnivorous crystal + improved natural attack + strong jaw comes to mind) should one assume a similar progression for each effective step or do things cap at 16d6?

Why, that reminds me...

Do Strong Jaw and Improved Natural Attack stack?


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Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

At long last...the PDT is proud to present the most-FAQed FAQ of all the FAQs that ever FAQed:

FAQ wrote:

Size Changes, Effective Size Changes, and Damage Dice Progression: I'm confused by how to increase and decrease manufactured and natural weapon damage dice when the weapon's size or effective size changes. There's a bunch of different charts, and I'm not sure which to use.

When the damage dealt by a creature’s weapons or natural attacks changes due to a change in its size (or the size of its weapon), use the following rules to determine the new damage.

• If the size increases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and increase the damage by two steps. If the initial size is Small or lower (or is treated as Small or lower) or the initial damage is 1d6 or less, instead increase the damage by one step.
• If the size decreases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and decrease the damage by two steps. If the initial size is Medium or lower (or is treated as Medium or lower) or the initial damage is 1d8 or less, instead decrease the damage by one step.
• If the exact number of original dice is not found on this chart, apply the following before adjusting the damage dice. If the damage is a number of d6, find the next lowest number of d6 on the chart and use that number of d8 as the original damage value (for example, 10d6 would instead be treated as 8d8). If the damage is a number of d8, find the next highest number of d8 on the chart and use that number of d6 as the original damage value (for example, 5d8 would instead be treated as 6d6). Once you have the new damage value, adjust by the number of steps noted above.
• If the die type is not referenced on this chart, apply the following rules before adjusting the damage dice. 2d4 counts as 1d8 on the chart, 3d4 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers of d4. 1d12 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers

...

I can easily determine the next value after 16d6 is 16d8, based on the pattern.

Would 16d8 increase to 20d6? Assuming it does, what would come after the likely occurring 20d8?

Assuming I need to determine damage dice for something N sizes beyond 16d6, how would I determine that next value?


Once y=2 or greater the progression is always yd6 yd8 1.5yd6 1.5d8

That means that 16d6 16d8 then 24d6 24d8 then 36d6 36d8

I am not sure there is any combination in the game that will allow a PC to get to 36d6 but at least we know how.


How would increase or decrease 4d4, 5d4, 7d4 an other prime d4s increase?

How would 6d4 increase? It could be 4d6 or 3d8. Once we know that any other divisible by 6 is easy to do.

Webstore Gninja Minion

Removed a post. We do appreciate hearing about your opinion, but resorting to terms like "stupid", "Paizo hates monks/casters/martials/flying monkeys/Crane Wing," etc. aren't helpful to foster discussion. Keep it civil, thanks!

Grand Lodge

Glad to see this finally got addressed ^_^

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Jeez.

Of all FAQs, this is the last one I thought would get response that needed to be removed.

Come on guys, this is one of the good ones.

You helped make this happen.

This is a good thing.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
My ear is always open to what you guys are saying, and I'll always take your suggestions to the PDT. In the end, there are a lot of factors behind the magic that leads to a final FAQ, but a crucial part of that process is hearing what you guys have to say.

By the way, there seems to be a glitch on the Help/FAQ page. This size increase FAQ was posted yesterday for the Core Rulebook, but the Help/FAQ page entry says that the FAQ for the Core Rulebook was last updated in February. Somebody should take a look into that.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Jeez.

Of all FAQs, this is the last one I thought would get response that needed to be removed.

Come on guys, this is one of the good ones.

You helped make this happen.

This is a good thing.

I almost wish I could see the text of the post that got removed, just so I could giggle about it. As far as I can tell, this FAQ has not nerfed a single thing, but has clarified how a particular set of convoluted rules work.

And if anyone thinks they didn't get a chance to have their input heard, the start date of the thread is pretty telling, not to mention that even though the core idea which fed into the FAQ was first posted on October 19 last year, it wasn't an easy sell to Mark!

This is one of the good ones.


Maybe a misunderstanding about how this interacts with Monk damage?


Liz Courts wrote:
Removed a post. We do appreciate hearing about your opinion, but resorting to terms like "stupid", "Paizo hates monks/casters/martials/flying monkeys/Crane Wing," etc. aren't helpful to foster discussion. Keep it civil, thanks!

Ha! Knew I could rely on the Paizo forums.


@Chemlak

Do you know how the D4s work?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm not absolutely certain, and one thing to bear in mind is that this chart is for "real damage dice" (those which actually appear in the game), but here's my best guess:

2d4 = 1d8
3d4 = 2d6
4d4 = 2d8
5d4 = 3d6
6d4 = 3d8
7d4 = 4d6
Etc.

I'm certain that the even d4 results are right, and the pattern is fairly elegant, but as you get into higher odd d4 numbers, the max results and average results start to diverge significantly (for example 7d4 would be better modelled by 5d6). On the other hand, find me a weapon or natural attack that does more than 6d4 damage, and I'll buy you a cookie.


I apologize, but the idea was to make a unified chart to make it easier, but I have a feeling most people will get confused with those rules on how to use the progression.

I'm still inclined to use a chart like the one HangarFlying proposed, which is an expanded version of the original chart on the 3.5 DMG.

Even so, Thank you for your effort.


This chart makes sense to me. The only weird thing is the D4s and I am not sure there is anything in the game that does 5d4 damage.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Mathius wrote:
Do you know how the D4s work?

Is there a set of dice that can't be covered by this?

The new FAQ wrote:
If the die type is not referenced on this chart, apply the following rules before adjusting the damage dice. 2d4 counts as 1d8 on the chart, 3d4 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers of d4. 1d12 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers


Mathius wrote:

Once y=2 or greater the progression is always yd6 yd8 1.5yd6 1.5d8

That means that 16d6 16d8 then 24d6 24d8 then 36d6 36d8

I am not sure there is any combination in the game that will allow a PC to get to 36d6 but at least we know how.

As far as I can tell, next up after 24d6 and 24d8 is 32d6 and 32d8. The pattern I'm observing alternates between adding 1/2 and 1/3 of the current amount of dice.

2d6 & 2d8 (+2/2 dice) =>
3d6 & 3d8 (+3/3 dice) =>
4d6 & 4d8 (+4/2 dice) =>
6d6 & 6d8 (+6/3 dice) =>
8d6 & 8d8 (+8/2 dice) =>
12d6 & 12d8 (+12/3 dice) =>
16d6 & 16d8 (+16/2 dice) =>
24d6 & 24d8 (+24/3 dice) =>
32d6 & 32d8 (+32/2 dice) =>
48d6 & 48d8 (+48/3 dice) =>
etc...

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Mathius wrote:
This chart makes sense to me. The only weird thing is the D4s and I am not sure there is anything in the game that does 5d4 damage.

I didn't see a 5d4 when I did an audit of oddballs.

Quote:

1 12d6

1 14d6
1 15d6
1 16d6
1 20d6
1 20d8
1 4d12
1 4d4
1 5d8
1 7d8
1 8d8
2 1d1
2 2d12
2 3d10
2 3d4
2 5d10
4 6d10
4 7d6
5 6d8
7 10d6
9 8d6
10 5d6
14 1d12
14 4d10
35 6d6
38 2d10
40 3d8
48 4d8
50 1d10
57 2d4
79 1d2
123 3d6
155 4d6
232 1d3
436 2d8
717 1d4
896 2d6
1085 1d8
1149 1d6

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Looking at the oddballs, it seems the only ones I don't think I know how to add/subtract is 5d10.

The others like 6d10->10d6 then apply and 4d10->5d8->6d6 then apply?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Risner wrote:

Looking at the oddballs, it seems the only ones I don't think I know how to add/subtract is 5d10.

The others like 6d10->10d6 then apply and 4d10->5d8->6d6 then apply?

If I'm interpreting it right, 5d10 increases to 10d8, and decreases to 5d8. I'm still trying to figure out how 5d8 would decrease, but 10d8 is considered equivalent to 12d6 (rule 3) for further increases.

Edit: got it. 5d8 is equivalent to 6d6 (rule 3).

Edit of edit: And this just shows how smart PDT are, since 6d6>(5d10)>12d6 follows the normal double the dice for 2 size increases (4 steps in the progression) rule.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Who feels excited? I got to thinking, I built the list of all the damage dice, does anyone feel like building the up/down for every damage dice translation?

It would help many people to have it precomputed, and it would help the Herolab guys write the if/then tree to do it in software.

Grand Lodge

James Risner wrote:

Who feels excited? I got to thinking, I built the list of all the damage dice, does anyone feel like building the up/down for every damage dice translation?

It would help many people to have it precomputed, and it would help the Herolab guys write the if/then tree to do it in software.

I would hope the herolab guys (generic use of guys so as to also include gals ;) ) are smart enough to interpret it. It's actual super logical and very straight forward so shouldn't be hard to translate into code at all. For example, prolog would make mince meat outta that thing and be super easy. Of course, herolab obviously isn't written in prolog, and any modern object oriented language can do just as well, if only slightly more verbose.

Silver Crusade Lone Wolf Development

I'm afraid I'd really appreciate an official answer as to whether the table continues on beyond 16d6 and appreciate more official examples in the d4 and d10 series. Currently, there's only two examples in the d4 series before they say "and so on", and one example in the d10 series before they say "and so on".

I'm pretty sure that for the d4s, you take the maximum damage, and if it's divisible by 6, turn it into that many d6s, otherwise divide it by 8 and turn it into that many d8s, but I don't know how to modify the Powerful Charge ability of the Barometz (B4 pg 16), which is at 10d10, if that monster had some damage dice-altering effect, because a single example isn't enough to allow me to extrapolate a series for the d10s.

I'd guess that 4d10 is at the same table position as 6d8 and 8d10 is at the 12d8 position, the same way 2d10 is at the 3d8 position, but the 1.5x multiplier that works for those doesn't help with 3d10 (a stone colossus's slam), 5d10 (a Nightwave's Bite), 6d10 (an Adamantine Golem's slam) or 10d10 (a Barometz's powerful charge).

The Exchange

Mathias Gehl wrote:

I'm afraid I'd really appreciate an official answer as to whether the table continues on beyond 16d6 and appreciate more official examples in the d4 and d10 series. Currently, there's only two examples in the d4 series before they say "and so on", and one example in the d10 series before they say "and so on".

I'm pretty sure that for the d4s, you take the maximum damage, and if it's divisible by 6, turn it into that many d6s, otherwise divide it by 8 and turn it into that many d8s, but I don't know how to modify the Powerful Charge ability of the Barometz (B4 pg 16), which is at 10d10, if that monster had some damage dice-altering effect, because a single example isn't enough to allow me to extrapolate a series for the d10s.

I'd guess that 4d10 is at the same table position as 6d8 and 8d10 is at the 12d8 position, the same way 2d10 is at the 3d8 position, but the 1.5x multiplier that works for those doesn't help with 3d10 (a stone colossus's slam), 5d10 (a Nightwave's Bite), 6d10 (an Adamantine Golem's slam) or 10d10 (a Barometz's powerful charge).

I agree the FAQ probably needs a tiny bit of clarification but in the meantime

As to the specifics, 4d8->4d10->8d8

For one size down on d10s, change to an equal number of d8s. For one size up, change to d8s and double the number of dice.

Silver Crusade Lone Wolf Development

Belafon wrote:

I agree the FAQ probably needs a tiny bit of clarification but in the meantime

As to the specifics, 4d8->4d10->8d8
For one size down on d10s, change to an equal number of d8s. For one size up, change to d8s and double the number of dice.

From the two examples we have - 2d10 and 4d10, I don't think the progression is based on transferring to d8s and doubling. I think 2d10 is in the same table position as 3d8, which is why 2d8 and 4d8 are each two places away from it. His example in the post is that 4d10 is in the 6d8 position, making 4d8 and 8d8 the numbers that are two places above and below.

So maybe the idea is to pretend the number of d10s are d8s, and then find the position of that number of d8s in the table, and then jump two positions higher than that. So for 2d10, find the position 2 above 2d8 - the 3d8 row, which would mean for 3d10, find the position 2 above 3d8, which is the 4d8 row, meaning it would go to 3d8 and 6d8 (which is actually the same result as transferring to d8s and doubling gives). For 5d10, you'd find the position for 5d8, which is on the 6d6 row, then jump 2 to the 8d6 row, meaning it would go to 6d6 and 12d6.

The Exchange

Mathias Gehl wrote:


From the two examples we have - 2d10 and 4d10, I don't think the progression is based on transferring to d8s and doubling. I think 2d10 is in the same table position as 3d8, which is why 2d8 and 4d8 are each two places away from it. His example in the post is that 4d10 is in the 6d8 position, making 4d8 and 8d8 the numbers that are two places above and below.

I'm not sure where you are getting that from. According to the FAQ, any number of d10s (above 1d10) is not covered on the chart. The final bullet point says "ignore the chart for 2d10 and do this instead."

Quote:
• Finally, 2d10 increases to 4d8 and decreases to 2d8, regardless of the initial size, and so on for higher numbers of d10

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Quick question on those dice progressions. Does the progression for d12's mean that I convert that advancement to d12 dice or just use the printed sets?

I.e. Does that mean that when a d12 scales up to the next stage does it become 3d6 or something like 2d12?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

1d12 is exactly equivalent to 2d6.

You could convert back to d12s if you felt like it, I guess, but they're meant to go:

1d12>3d6>4d6

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