Can we please get an FAQ posted for damage dice increases?


Rules Questions

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Paizo Employee Customer Service Dire Care Bear Manager

Temporarily locking this thread until I can get a handle on what's going on here.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Dire Care Bear Manager

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So here's the deal folks. I really dislike locking threads. Really, really, really dislike it. Especially ones where people are talking about rules, what they find is confusing or needs FAQ or is errata, etc, because I like to be able to direct customers who have rules questions to the boards. I like being able to tell fans and new customers that they can come to the messageboards with their questions and we have a lot of really knowledgable and helpful people who can answer things or offer suggestions. I like being proud of the community surrounding Paizo and Pathfinder and their willingness to work together and help each other when there are questions or issues. I don't want to lock threads like this because I want someone new or new to this issue to be able to find this thread and find it useful. I want them to be able to ask for clarification on a post they find confusing or follow up advice on something. And the reason I wasted an hour clearing out a bunch of derailing, unhelpful and bitter posts that you all know better than to post is because I want to make sure that other people who come and have questions about damage dice increases don't have to wade through those posts or don't beg me for rules clarifications (which CS can't and doesn't do) because the boards are too toxic.

Specifically to address some of the things that got removed in this thread, here are some general bits of messageboard etiquette.

When you feel you need to get in one last little point or barb in a internet argument, it is better to stop and just move on. We don't edit posts, so if you include your opinion of an off-topic, contentious issue which is currently derailing a thread along with your main, on-topic point, you may find the entire post removed. Keep in mind, if you are continuing to propagate a massive derail, you may risk experianing the same consequences that befall the instigators.

When you feel like you are contributing in a manner that edges a thread into removal or locking territory, please revisit your decision to contribute, or even to continue participating in the thread.

Thank you for your time and attention for the duration of this post. I'm going to reopen the thread now. I have every confidence in y'all to keep this place helpful and useful.

If you have questions or concerns about moderation, please email webmaster@paizo.com. Going forward post in this thread should focus on questions or discussion of damage dice increases.


The carnivorous crystal actually has 7d8 slam, which sits right between the 6d8 and 8d8 on one of the progressions from the first post.


Well back to idle speculation while we wait for clarification on this issue.


Wow... I'm confused, this thread was so free and clear of drama too. Been at work all day and come back to find nearly a whole page deleted. :(


Woohoo! Road to 400!


I wish I could mark this for FAQ twice.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tels wrote:
Wow... I'm confused, this thread was so free and clear of drama too. Been at work all day and come back to find nearly a whole page deleted. :(

You didn't miss anything you didn't want to miss. Trust me.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
The carnivorous crystal actually has 7d8 slam, which sits right between the 6d8 and 8d8 on one of the progressions from the first post.

I think the carnivorous crystal can help immensely with determining a "general rule" for increasing damage dice. We don't need every possible dice combination included on a chart. If another critter comes along whose base damage is 3d4, or 5d6, we should quickly and easily be able to figure out what dice a larger version's attacks should be.

My vote for the crystal would be this:

7d8 for a "normal" crystal
7d6 for a "young" crystal
14d6 for a "giant" crystal
14d8 for a normal crystal w/ Strong Jaw
28d6 for a giant crystal w/ Strong Jaw

Although this seems like it could get out of hand quickly, consider this: when we look at progressing 6d6 two steps to 12d6, and 8d6 two steps to 16d6, doesn't progressing 7d6 two steps to 14d6 fit perfectly in between the other two?


Nefreet wrote:
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
The carnivorous crystal actually has 7d8 slam, which sits right between the 6d8 and 8d8 on one of the progressions from the first post.

I think the carnivorous crystal can help immensely with determining a "general rule" for increasing damage dice. We don't need every possible dice combination included on a chart. If another critter comes along whose base damage is 3d4, or 5d6, we should quickly and easily be able to figure out what dice a larger version's attacks should be.

My vote for the crystal would be this:

7d8 for a "normal" crystal
7d6 for a "young" crystal
14d6 for a "giant" crystal
14d8 for a normal crystal w/ Strong Jaw
28d6 for a giant crystal w/ Strong Jaw

Although this seems like it could get out of hand quickly, consider this: when we look at progressing 6d6 two steps to 12d6, and 8d6 two steps to 16d6, doesn't progressing 7d6 two steps to 14d6 fit perfectly in between the other two?

That's about how I houserule it as well. Though I still want the faq.


+1 more FAQ request, ran into a couple of these questions last week and couldn't find a satisfying resolution.


Tels wrote:
Wow... I'm confused, this thread was so free and clear of drama too. Been at work all day and come back to find nearly a whole page deleted. :(

Someone suggested that contentious animosity gets FAQ's answered more quickly, so we tried that. It didn't work this time. :(


BigDTBone wrote:
Tels wrote:
Wow... I'm confused, this thread was so free and clear of drama too. Been at work all day and come back to find nearly a whole page deleted. :(
Someone suggested that contentious animosity gets FAQ's answered more quickly, so we tried that. It didn't work this time. :(

Oh, I understand, we started intentionally bringing up 'sensitive' topics as jokes, but nothing took off. I guess one topic touched a real nerve, then it escalated really quickly.

Paizo Employee Designer

11 people marked this as a favorite.

Just posting here to tell you that I've been watching this thread and its actually one that has been mentioned among the design team at least once. We have members coming in and out for a while at cons and the like plus some amazingly cool (but hard) stuff on our plate, so don't expect any more FAQs (let alone any one particular FAQ) for a few weeks. However, there's good money on this one being answered relatively soon (the key being relatively) compared to other FAQs. This post is mostly just for reassurance, and I hope it helps.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Just posting here to tell you that I've been watching this thread and its actually one that has been mentioned among the design team at least once. We have members coming in and out for a while at cons and the like plus some amazingly cool (but hard) stuff on our plate, so don't expect any more FAQs (let alone any one particular FAQ) for a few weeks. However, there's good money on this one being answered relatively soon (the key being relatively) compared to other FAQs. This post is mostly just for reassurance, and I hope it helps.

It does. Thank you very much!


Mark Seifter wrote:
Just posting here to tell you that I've been watching this thread and its actually one that has been mentioned among the design team at least once. We have members coming in and out for a while at cons and the like plus some amazingly cool (but hard) stuff on our plate, so don't expect any more FAQs (let alone any one particular FAQ) for a few weeks. However, there's good money on this one being answered relatively soon (the key being relatively) compared to other FAQs. This post is mostly just for reassurance, and I hope it helps.

That's great news! Thank you for letting us know.

Sovereign Court

Glad to hear that.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Squeee!!

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Mark Seifter wrote:
Just posting here to tell you that I've been watching this thread and its actually one that has been mentioned among the design team at least once. We have members coming in and out for a while at cons and the like plus some amazingly cool (but hard) stuff on our plate, so don't expect any more FAQs (let alone any one particular FAQ) for a few weeks. However, there's good money on this one being answered relatively soon (the key being relatively) compared to other FAQs. This post is mostly just for reassurance, and I hope it helps.

Mark, you're a good guy, I don't care what Cheapy says about you....


Ssalarn wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Just posting here to tell you that I've been watching this thread and its actually one that has been mentioned among the design team at least once. We have members coming in and out for a while at cons and the like plus some amazingly cool (but hard) stuff on our plate, so don't expect any more FAQs (let alone any one particular FAQ) for a few weeks. However, there's good money on this one being answered relatively soon (the key being relatively) compared to other FAQs. This post is mostly just for reassurance, and I hope it helps.
Mark, you're a good guy, I don't care what Cheapy says about you....

Cheapy is a poopyface meany head anyway! [/kidding]

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Out of curiosity, Mark, will THIS FAQ request also be answered around the same time?

The two issues are related, but subtly different.

Paizo Employee Designer

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:

Out of curiosity, Mark, will THIS FAQ request also be answered around the same time?

The two issues are related, but subtly different.

I would not count on them being answered at the same time. That way if they are, it will be a pleasant surprise!

Honestly in some cases, what might happen is that we have a pow-wow based on one topic, and we wind up discussing enough more things that someone says "Wait, we just answered more than one question there" and then more questions get answered as sort of "FAQs of opportunity" if you will.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

1 person marked this as a favorite.

FAQ of Opportunity is my new favorite phrase.

Silver Crusade

Well, that post from Mark Seifter makes my #390 FAQ contribution seem silly. Still! We've had this come up multiple times in our table, and to hear some progress on getting an answer is good!

*waves flag, cheers* 'Yaay'


I kinda still want the FAQ requests to reach 400... 8 more to go. ;)


Lemmy wrote:
I kinda still want the FAQ requests to reach 400... 8 more to go. ;)

Significant numbers are a meaningless mental construct!

...oh all right, then, just for you.


my two cents on the topic:

1. Make a new weapons by size chart, make it thorough, from Fine to Colossal. Do not allow dice sizes to exceed the chart. Have it cap off. Size increases, shapeshifting, it can get pretty absurd, pretty quickly.

2. Change Improved Natural Attack to be identical to the new size chart. Don't have INA and the size chart in contradiction like they are in 3.5


nthrun5000 wrote:

my two cents on the topic:

1. Make a new weapons by size chart, make it thorough, from Fine to Colossal. Do not allow dice sizes to exceed the chart. Have it cap off. Size increases, shapeshifting, it can get pretty absurd, pretty quickly.

2. Change Improved Natural Attack to be identical to the new size chart. Don't have INA and the size chart in contradiction like they are in 3.5

So what would large/huge/gargantuan/colossal monks (whose "weapon damage" i.e. their unarmed strikes) do when they reach lvl 16 (lvl 11 with a Monk's Robe) and their base weapon damage exceeds that of every other weapon published?

prototype00


399
1 more after me to reach 400 ;)

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

And in just under three months, too. That's a community coming together =).


Nefreet wrote:
And in just under three months, too. That's a community coming together =).

Too bad it wasn't something that is more useful. I have never seen this to be a issue, once you get that many dice, (a rare occurrence) the Dm just wings it.

I agree it should be answered, but this hardly seems a FREQUENTLY asked question, as I think it's the first time it's come up in what - a decade?

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
DrDeth wrote:
I agree it should be answered, but this hardly seems a FREQUENTLY asked question, as I think it's the first time it's come up in what - a decade?

6 times in 8 days, plus myriad others.


A lot of things come out of no-where and suddenly ping, such as the idea wizards could cast cleric spells, but sure, I get your point.


DrDeth wrote:
A lot of things come out of no-where and suddenly ping, such as the idea wizards could cast cleric spells, but sure, I get your point.

I've seen the question pop up periodically in Monk/Druid threads all the time. With the oncoming Warpriest, it popped up even more. I saw several threads along the line of. "Playing a Warpriest, what damage is my large sized weapon when I Enlarge myself" Or something along those lines.

It's actually pretty subtle in how often discussions of weapon damage dice come up, but I think a lot of people just never bothered to FAQ it.

Grand Lodge

DrDeth wrote:
A lot of things come out of no-where and suddenly ping, such as the idea wizards could cast cleric spells, but sure, I get your point.

Note how that particular issue actually got FAQed before this one did.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

That question, IMO, was easier to answer. Most people understood the intent.

This question likely involves more research.


Nefreet wrote:

That question, IMO, was easier to answer. Most people understood the intent.

This question likely involves more research.

Yeah, changing/codifying how weapon damage scales is the kind of thing that could have a lot of implications for the rules.

Grand Lodge

Nefreet wrote:

That question, IMO, was easier to answer. Most people understood the intent.

This question likely involves more research.

Oh, it was definitely much easier to rule on. I just meant that Paizo apparently doesn't agree with DrDeth's definition of Frequently Asked Questions if he was equating that question with this one for frequency.

Dark Archive

Ok i guess this will be the thread to watch, seeing as I am building a catfolk FCT INA monk that if it stacks the way I have been thinking it does then at level 9 they will doing 3d6.

Or better yet with ACG coming out in the next couple of weeks maybe better off going brawler to get cat pounce quicker.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'm betting (hoping?) that with the release of the Warpriest we'll get an answer to this soon.


Someday, some when, I'll know what happens to the Unarmed Damage of a Medium Sized Monk, with Powerful Build, Claws, Feral Combat Training, Improved Natural Attack (Claws), and two size increases.

Cause, at the moment, I'm pretty certain the DM would rule it stops increasing at Colossal, which I would have passed ages ago.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

bump?

Grand Lodge

Apocryphile wrote:
bump?

Mark Seifter has a post about this in the thread about the most recent FAQ, actually. Lemme quote it for you:

Mark Seifter wrote:
You can blame those darned gnomes and halflings and their manufactured weapons for that. Seriously, I created something elegant that had thus-far pinned down everything, only to find that those small races were the only thing in the game that couldn't fit. Come, my friends, let us band together and lay waste to the villages of all the gnomes and halflings until we have our FAQ!


Couldn't they just errata it to say Small races have their damage dice 1 category lower than Medium races?


apparently it's not as easy as that. Maybe because they don't want the standard small races to have that big of a damage difference?


Chess Pwn wrote:
apparently it's not as easy as that. Maybe because they don't want the standard small races to have that big of a damage difference?

Well, the difference between 1d6 and 1d4 is just a +1 on average, so it's not a big deal.

The exception, of course is the difference between 1d12 and 3d6, but few weapons use those dice.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'm wondering if it has something to do with the dilemma of a small-sized humanoid benefiting from Enlarge Person.

Take the Glaive, for example. Normally a medium-sized Glaive does 1d10, and a small-sized Glaive does 1d8.

But, normally when 1d8 goes up a size category, it deals 2d6.

So, would a Halfling wielding a Glaive, who is subject to Enlarge Person, now deal 1d10 (per the weapon chart) or 2d6 (per the size increase chart)?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:


So, would a Halfling wielding a Glaive, who is subject to Enlarge Person, now deal 1d10 (per the weapon chart) or 2d6 (per the size increase chart)?

And that's why it's a problem!


Well, it's sort of a problem. There are two "correct" ways to do It, the devs just need to pick onfe

Paizo Employee Designer

If anyone has their own elegant (elegant meaning no byzantine exceptions) solution that fits the following two criteria, I'm open to listen and think about how it relates to everything I have so far.

#1) Does not decrease the damage of size small weapons based off medium weapons that deal d10 or d12/2d6 damage.

#2) Does not decrease the damage of size large weapons based off medium weapons that deal d8 or d10 damage.

What I have so far are numerous formulas and explanations of dice increases, which have allowed me to create a fairly elegant solution that fully explains all damage dice increases and decreases in the game, so long as we violate #1. I do not particular want to violate #1, however.

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