Single NPC Caster is going to blow his wad (cast most powerful spells) level the PCs ASAP.
Personally, as a GM, there is a dark little part of me that laughs at players when they blow all of their most powerful spells on a mook. Instead, they should be using weak, but effective, spells like MM to support the fighters.
As for the whole "spellcasters have shield" argument. Not all of them do. In fact, it is a very effective way for the wizard to stop the NPC cleric from healing his buddy with that Heal spell (if not something worse).
Should you memorize multiples? By mid-high levels I would suggest not memorizing more than 2. But, should you have at least one on hand? Absolutely.
Typically my level 8 wizard memorizes (1st level slots): Grease, Liberating Command (if the cleric doesn't), Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement (great spell), and one open slot.
That is in addition to a number of scrolls I carry (such as Shield).
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Plus, asking players to describe their magic missiles is the earliest way to see their style in action.
Unrelatedly, it's hard to convince someone who's being dismissive of other ideas.
Between natural weapons and flight, it could be possible to go whole levels without needing to make anything greasy, but it's unlikely.
As for the spell at hand, it's reliable and handy when you don't want to use up your higher-level spell slots yet. Though 1d4+1 at five different targets is generally a weak choice, if the other AoE spells only almost finished them off, a nudge can be more useful than overkill.
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I've had a sorcerer enemy (Boss) in PFS almost wipe a whole party with a wand of it.
You can meet ghosts before the party is equipped to deal with them.
Wizard apprentice hordes with wands of MM are murder.
It beats other level 1 damage spells as you level.
Counter spelling in a specific AP (even vs meta magiced versions)saved us from party wipe.
-later in that same AP but different book, I was happy to have it memorized.
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I've seen them used a lot by low-level sorcerers. If a sorcerer doesn't have Precise Shot (yet), firing ray spells into melee is actually fairly hard. At CR 1-3, enemies are often small and have decent Touch AC. And sorcerers are very squishy at that level, so even if you can get close enough to do Burning Hands it's not certain you want to. And getting close is not guaranteed; a lot of dungeons have narrow corridors and such that make it hard for the backbenchers to use AoE spells well.
Magic missile is one of the few first-level spells that remains relevant through the levels. Sleep has HD limits, mage armor is replaced by magic items (bracers of armor, usually), and so on. Yes, it can get shut down by SR, but it does not allow saves, nor does it require rolling to hit. Except for SR, it is guaranteed damage. Shield is not that common, though that might be my experience with my DMs. Even as a high level wizard, there are reasons to use MM.
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I compared it to level 9 as people above were recommending its use there. We actually have someone recommending using quickened magic missile in a level 5 spell slot. Given what you can actually do with level 5 spells that is just mind boggling to me.
I doubt many people would say it is better than using your 5th level spells. That would be just silly.
But you have a limited number of 5th level spells. At 9th level we sometimes see a 100+ opponents in a day. Some are probably not worth a 5th level spell. That doesn't mean I want to get close enough to use color spray or burning hands on them.
An opposition wizard may not be high enough level so be a serious threat to the group (and warrant burning a 5th level spell to take him out), but I can ready a 1st level spell to stop him casting an annoying spell and do damage at the same time.
Is it the be-all-end-all super spell of mondo attacks? No, of course not. It is a first level spell. But that doesn't mean it is useless.
I remember when our party was hacking its way through the wizard's guild they tapped into the armories and geared up the 1st level or so apprentices with a bunch of CL 9 Magic Missile wands with a handful of charges. Makes for very cheap yet reliable damage from mooks, in a situation where touch attack or saving throw effects would have been much less useful.
Oh man, was that the same adventure where the DM stripped you of all of your magical items and put dubiously CRed creatures in to beat you down? And sent an ogre in to sexaully assault the wizard in her antimagic cell?
So sure, when your enemy numbers a handful or more of casters all dropping Magic Missiles at you, yeah that hurts.
But do you honestly care when a single enemy caster does? How is the reverse situation not also true?
Because the enemy typically doesn't need to conserve resources, and the party does. The enemy typically has popcorn/minions that need to be taken out cheaply, and the party doesn't. Basically, it's an asymmetric situation.
Nothing keeps the enemy wizard from going nova and using all of his spells, because he's not going to see another party. If the party wizard does that, it's either a five-minute adventuring day or the party's going to get seriously effed up two rooms from now.
@Ascaphalus - Lesser Metamagic Rods of Extend Spell are quite cheap, and they can help you keep Shield up in situations where combat seems likely. Wands of Shield are also even cheaper than wands of Magic Missile.
I find Magic Missile is better at higher level. At low level there are better spells to use and a lot of those 1st level spells become useless. Like Sleep and Color Spray. Great at 1st but at 10th they are useless.
At high level 5D4+5 is decent damage and auto hits for Wizard. Better than the crossbow.
1)Magic Missile ignores most Damage resistance
2)Magic Missile can be fired into a melee and always hit the target.
3) Because it ALWAYS hits, it ignores cover. If you can see it, you can hit it.
4) It has a range comparable to a bow and does not miss...even at maximum range.
5) It hits incorporeal creatures (every time).
6) It's low level means that you can carry a few of them and it can cheaply be made into a wand or scroll.
can how you put a value not a fallen target, standing next to you fighter, or a character wth reach
lets, look at
Toppling Spell (Metamagic)
Your spells with the force descriptor knock the affected creatures prone.
. . . .
I'd say add a trait to keep it a first level toppling spell, or make a lesser rod for 1,500 gp or buy one for 3,000 gp. Focus fire the big guy to give two, three, four, or five chances for him to be knocked prone for a first level spell. Melee party members will love it and ranged party members will hate it.
Magic missile isn't a blast spell. It's a counterspell that happens to also do some damage.
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@Ascaphalus - Lesser Metamagic Rods of Extend Spell are quite cheap, and they can help you keep Shield up in situations where combat seems likely. Wands of Shield are also even cheaper than wands of Magic Missile.
Maybe it's a difference in group/GM style; I rarely have long before a combat to prep. And if I've only got one round, Shield is often not my favorite spell to get off before combat; that'd be Invisibility, Summon Monster or Enlarge Person perhaps.
I remember when our party was hacking its way through the wizard's guild they tapped into the armories and geared up the 1st level or so apprentices with a bunch of CL 9 Magic Missile wands with a handful of charges. Makes for very cheap yet reliable damage from mooks, in a situation where touch attack or saving throw effects would have been much less useful.Oh man, was that the same adventure where the DM stripped you of all of your magical items and put dubiously CRed creatures in to beat you down? And sent an ogre in to sexaully assault the wizard in her antimagic cell?
Yeah, he's out of control.
;)
I think a lot of people who claim that touch spells are so easy to land that the auto-hit aspect of Magic Missile is negligible aren't using the ranged touch rules correctly. Firing into melee is at -4 to hit, firing at an oponent that has cover is -4 to hit, and usually both will apply to a caster of ranged touch/ray spells. If your buddy is between you and the target and is in melee with your target, a wizard/sorcerer with a piss-poor BAB and no stat points left to put into Dex after pumping Int/Chr to the stratosphere is NOT likely to land that hit!
It feels like a lot of theorycraft in here. I still don't see any reason to prepare it past level 1, tbh, and really not even then.
Level 1: Color Spray and/or Sleep wins the game. Why bother with MM at all?
At level 9, those 2 spells are less than useless.
Any higher level spells being compared to MM is a waste of time, as they're different slots that serve different purposes.At level 9, after you've blown your 4th and 3rd level spells, there is still work to do, bad guys to fight. If you're in combat with 1 BigBad or 10 littleBads, are you telling me you'd rather have a color spray memorized than a MM??
Also what if you need to save your big gun spells? Are you supposed to crossbow every round? Why on earth wouldn't you use MM?
Also what about sorcerers? A 9th/10th level Sorcerer with MM is a beast. 5d4+5, round after round after round,(notwithstanding any meta feats and/or rods)that auto-hits at medium range is badass.
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I'd say that the "miss chance" for a Ranged Touch is so low in most encounters that it shouldn't really factor, but it's not a point I'm willing to argue. :)
Unless you're willing to invest in the point blank shot -> precise shot -> improved precise shot chain, especially at low level, a party with a melee character is frequently going to have its spellcaster take -4 to an effective -8 on its ranged attack rolls.
I don't care that you're only targeting touch. Scorching ray at level 3 at a -1 to -5 ranged touch attack modifier isn't hitting anything with any degree of accuracy.
. . . At level 9, after you've blown your 4th and 3rd level spells, there is still work to do, bad guys to fight. If you're in combat with 1 BigBad or 10 littleBads, are you telling me you'd rather have a color spray memorized than a MM??. . . .
If I am a Heaven's Oracle or another caster that has dipped oracle for improvements to specific spells, yes. Other than those specific cases, you have a point, Sir. Some of the 'awesome' spells just don't level as well as others.
I find Paizo Force Missile Mage PrC from Dragon 328/Dragon Compendium, if allowed, takes magic missile from circumstantial to nifty.
I kind of laugh at the people who think that sleep is effective in this game. At level 1 you can face creatures that are already laughing at it. The guys even at level 1 that are problematic can have 5 HD, even at level 1. CR3 monsters and NPCs can have 5 HD quite easily. Another thing that sucks about sleep is its a full round cast and half the time even against mooks you waste a portion of it. Got a 2HD(which is CR1/2) and 3 HD (which is CR1) tolal encounter 2? Guess what, you sleep one of them, you still have to worry about it waking up (damage or being woken up). Still somewhat effective but nothing earth shattering. CR 2 encounters are pretty much the expected normal non trivial fight at level 1, which is when sleep is supposed to be most effective. At level 4, which i hear so often being used in sleep discussions, sleep is completely useless as even the minion level monsters have enough HD that you will be lucky to get even one.
As for color spray, it allows a save and requires you to be in squish range of the enemy. Not a good combination in my experience, especially at low levels. Some builds this works for, but quite often it doesn't. Against that CR3 boss? Its a save or stun for 1 round. Might as well just be flinging daze at it.
As for the SR issue that somebody brought up earlier not coming up at low levels: Several of the APs introduce SR monsters right at the start. Sure its low, but so is the ability of the players to overcome it.
I'm no fan-boy of magic missile either, but its reliable damage once you don't have better things to spend your slots on. At lower levels you are better off buffing the martials and doing some light control/summons (like grease and SM1). However the potential for dazing or toppling magic missiles and other meta magic (both feat and rod based) increases my opinion of MM as you gain enough levels and wealth Just don't use it the first few levels because damage dealing those levels are for the BDF types (unless you go for full evoker of course, even then you probably won't be using MM as your primary spell). Personally I think its not a bad wand to have as a backup, but 15 gold (or 7.5 if you make it) per 1d4+1 is a little steep (actually its close to using cartridges once you account for misses/misfires and base cost of the gun). Hmmm I guess get an improved familiar have it UMD it as a ready action against foes that cast spells. You can't say the same for many other of the lvl one spells, though I personally prioritize mage armor and infernal healing for wands in PFS.
Meh, it is a fairly terrible spell which does weak damage which does not scale at all. If you think doing 18 damage is a good use of your action at level 9 then I just don't know what to say other than that CR9 opponents have on average around 115hp.
The reason the damage doesn't scale well with 3e/PF is because it's still using a 2e scale when 3e recalibrated the scales. Pretty much all of the major evocation spells have the same problem.
I kind of laugh at the people who think that sleep is effective in this game. At level 1 you can face creatures that are already laughing at it. The guys even at level 1 that are problematic can have 5 HD, even at level 1. CR3 monsters and NPCs can have 5 HD quite easily. Another thing that sucks about sleep is its a full round cast and half the time even against mooks you waste a portion of it. Got a 2HD(which is CR1/2) and 3 HD (which is CR1) tolal encounter 2? Guess what, you sleep one of them, you still have to worry about it waking up (damage or being woken up). Still somewhat effective but nothing earth shattering. CR 2 encounters are pretty much the expected normal non trivial fight at level 1, which is when sleep is supposed to be most effective. At level 4, which i hear so often being used in sleep discussions, sleep is completely useless as even the minion level monsters have enough HD that you will be lucky to get even one.
As for color spray, it allows a save and requires you to be in squish range of the enemy. Not a good combination in my experience, especially at low levels. Some builds this works for, but quite often it doesn't. Against that CR3 boss? Its a save or stun for 1 round. Might as well just be flinging daze at it.
Yeah, I know. But what they assume is super optimized just for that one spell builds vs a out of the book AP boss, most of whom will then fail very often. of course, if your DM allows such optimized builds, then it's only right to boost the monsters a bit too.
I feel really sorry for people that super optimize the wrong things in APs. Heck in Mummies Mask book one
Shattered star is has
I personally have been running the APs for midlevel optimizers, they dont' go full munchin, but they leverage the mechanics to be as favorable as possible and don't run screaming away from "duh take this" level stuff like some anti optimizers do. I have tons of pc kills just running the encounters as is (and by raising the monster HP to max due to running for a large party). None of them take sleep or color spray (unless they run a build that makes it scale better, heavens oracle iirc), and they don't even consider MM till at least level 7. Besides, a super optimized low level caster is still better off using grease to almost auto trip the bad guys letting the other players get to hit much easier.
Honestly I think sleep just has a nostalgia factor from when it was a standard action. Or going back a few editions of D&D when monsters didn't often gain class levels or full HD and just gained some HP on their HD (like 1HD+1 being "upgraded" to 1HD+4) Full round certainly drops it out of my list of must takes, and if I want to play sleep and slice I'll just go with witch.
Also 18 damage per round at level 9 is about the opposite of being a beast for damage. It is about what you might expect from a level 1 barbarian with a two handed sword.
Taken out of context. I was speaking specifically about sorcerers, their ability to spam, and using it as filler between other spells.
For a level 1 spell, which sorcerers have plenty of at lvl 9 or 10, there is no better choice than MM for damage output. Period.Yes Grease is great, yes there are other great choices too. But none that have reliable damage at medium range. It beats using a crossbow and every other damaging 1st level spell.
Barbarians miss, even at level 9. MM does not. When considering the damage output of the party, having some steady damage on the side shouldn't be discounted. It can mean the difference between BigBad going down in round 4 or 5.
Also 18 damage per round at level 9 is about the opposite of being a beast for damage. It is about what you might expect from a level 1 barbarian with a two handed sword.Taken out of context. I was speaking specifically about sorcerers, their ability to spam, and using it as filler between other spells.
For a level 1 spell, which sorcerers have plenty of at lvl 9 or 10, there is no better choice than MM for damage output. Period.Yes Grease is great, yes there are other great choices too. But none that have reliable damage at medium range. It beats using a crossbow and every other damaging 1st level spell.
Barbarians miss, even at level 9. MM does not. When considering the damage output of the party, having some steady damage on the side shouldn't be discounted. It can mean the difference between BigBad going down in round 4 or 5.
Wait, BBEG lasts 4 rounds? What tables are you playing at ;)
My combats, even epic ones, are over in 3 at the most. 5d4+5 isn't enough at level 9 to affect the outcome unless we get into one of those the enemy is at 1-15 HP, somebody finish it before he runs away or pops another "kill the entire party" effect.
If you are wanting do damage as a sorcerer you don't even want to consider using level 1 slots, combats dont' last long enough to bother with those. Level one spells? Sure, why not, but you meta magic those suckers so they can actually do something.
Held action
I shoot a magic missile in response to spellcasting
5d4+5 damage= 17ish damage for a concentration check of 27 + spell level.
Each spell is its own damage packet, so it would be five smaller (and most likely easily made) checks.
Each spell is its own damage packet, so it would be five smaller (and most likely easily made) checks.Held action
I shoot a magic missile in response to spellcasting
5d4+5 damage= 17ish damage for a concentration check of 27 + spell level.
No, it's one concentration check, because you do one concentration check by spell.
Compared to Magic Missile, I'd rather prepare Ear Piercing Scream.
Yes, the damage is the same, and can be divided by 2 if the target succeed at its save, but if it failed, it is dazed for 1 round, whatever HD he may have.
Magic missile auto hits, has no save, hit incorporeal and many other stuff, but it doesn't do significant damage. I prefer to use something that will buff the team instead of doing s$#~ty damage, even in a steady way : Grease, Mage armor, Vanish, Color spray, Enlarge person, Silent image, Ear Piercing scream and Protection from Evil are FAR better spells than magic missile.
The only useful use I can find for MM is for counterspelling ennemy spellcasters.
The rules for concentration do not say 'when you are subject to a spell'. It says 'when you take damage'. Each missile is a separate damage instance. Five checks.
The rules for concentration do not say 'when you are subject to a spell'. It says 'when you take damage'. Each missile is a separate damage instance. Five checks.
The rules for concentration explicitly say this :
Spell: If you are affected by a spell while attempting to cast a spell of your own, you must make a concentration check or lose the spell you are casting. If the spell affecting you deals damage, the DC is 10 + the damage taken + the level of the spell you're casting.
It's different from other sources of injury, such as Attack of opportunity or readied attack.
And the spell does damage five separate times.
And the spell does damage five separate times.But it's only one spell doing the damage. Not five separate spells.
Exactly.
It's one concentration check per spell. It may become 2 if the spell does damage and another condition (such as a ear piercing scream or a topling MM).
If the 5 missiles hit the same target they would hit at the same time. I would treat it as a single source of damage for purposes of a concentration check.
As far as this post: there's a reason MM is a classic spell. The guaranteed hit w/no save by itself makes it worthwhile, add to that the ability to hit incorporeal creatures and decent range and there's nothing not to like.
Zhayne, it doesn't matter how many instances of damage you take from a spell, it's considered one effect, EXACTLY like Manyshot (where Arrow Deflection can void all the Many arrows with one check).
Even if you roll 3 to hit rolls for Crit checks, you still check spell resistance ONCE on a scorching Ray (and to add insult, you check fire resistance once per ray, because elemental resistance is applied in best fashion for the target).
Your argument is akin to trying to trap someone between a bouncing spell, or winding a firesnake back through the same square, or catching someone in the same wall of fire twice. It's all one spell, and the damage doesn't change.
magic Missile doesn't change that. It may deliver the packs separately, but they all come in together as one effect.
==Aelryinth
If the 5 missiles hit the same target they would hit at the same time. I would treat it as a single source of damage for purposes of a concentration check.
As far as this post: there's a reason MM is a classic spell. The guaranteed hit w/no save by itself makes it worthwhile, add to that the ability to hit incorporeal creatures and decent range and there's nothing not to like.
You auto hit, but you don't damage your target in a useful way.
At level 1 doesn't even kill a kobold (CR 1/4).
Zhayne, it doesn't matter how many instances of damage you take from a spell, it's considered one effect, EXACTLY like Manyshot (where Arrow Deflection can void all the Many arrows with one check).
Even if you roll 3 to hit rolls for Crit checks, you still check spell resistance ONCE on a scorching Ray (and to add insult, you check fire resistance once per ray, because elemental resistance is applied in best fashion for the target).
Your argument is akin to trying to trap someone between a bouncing spell, or winding a firesnake back through the same square, or catching someone in the same wall of fire twice. It's all one spell, and the damage doesn't change.
magic Missile doesn't change that. It may deliver the packs separately, but they all come in together as one effect.
==Aelryinth
Wait. So I can hit five different targets with a single casting of magic missile and they all check to fall over, or I hit one guy with a set of toppling magic missiles and he only has to save once?
I feel cheated. :(
In the former case, the saves are much easier to make.
Besides, how often do you come across five targets all casting a spell simultaneously? Unless they're all casting 1 round or longer spells, this would require some unlikely readied-action-chain hijinks.
Yeah, I know. But what they assume is super optimized just for that one spell builds vs a out of the book AP boss, most of whom will then fail very often. of course, if your DM allows such optimized builds, then it's only right to boost the monsters a bit too.I don't think that "have a decent caster stat and take greater spell focus" really counts as being super optimised. In fact they seem to be part of the standard CRB assumption. Even if we are using 15 point buy it isn't unusual or difficult to start with a post racial 18 casting stat. Two very basic feats and you are at a level where it is very common for equal CR monsters to fail their saves. It is almost as if the system is designed to ensure that spells actually work on a fairly regular basis. Who would have thought such a thing might be possible.
Well, here's the problem- "take greater spell focus" two feats to give you a +2 to ONE school. Sleep runs out of power very early and Color spray a level later. So BAMM!, all your feats and you are rather dangerous for a few levels against certain types of foes, and now you are pretty darn useless against (for example) undead.
So, it looks nice on paper, but no one ever really does it except to prove that low level wizards are powerful. It's not even really theorycrafting. It's simple building to prove a point.
And yes, 'equal" CR, but BBEG are often 2 CR higher.
Wait, BBEG lasts 4 rounds? What tables are you playing at ;)
My combats, even epic ones, are over in 3 at the most. 5d4+5 isn't enough at level 9 to affect the outcome unless we get into one of those the enemy is at 1-15 HP, somebody finish it before he runs away or pops another "kill the entire party" effect.
If you are wanting do damage as a sorcerer you don't even want to consider using level 1 slots, combats dont' last long enough to bother with those. Level one spells? Sure, why not, but you meta magic those suckers so they can actually do something.
Sure, some people play "rocket tag" but I held a poll, and nigh every Dev who posts here added his opinion- normally combats last 5 rounds or more.
It's easy to give the PC's 25 pts and every PF source for builds, then match that against AP's designed fro 15 and only a couple of the rule books. If you allow the PC's that much of a power boost, sure, going against std Ap encounters, they are gonna be over fast.
I find MM to be useful for a 'finish off" or a fire twice with a rod of quicken.
The combats I run usually last a minimum of 5+ rounds but I also try to play intelligent creatures...intelligently. Soften up the PCs first before getting into it with them. Once the PCs actually start to land a few blows it is often over from that point in a couple rounds.
In the former case, the saves are much easier to make.
Besides, how often do you come across five targets all casting a spell simultaneously? Unless they're all casting 1 round or longer spells, this would require some unlikely readied-action-chain hijinks.
No. It's how often do you come across five targets, no more than 15 ft. apart. I cast a toppling magic missile to knock creatures over. Whether its to knock over persons charging us so that they don't reach us this round, to knock over somebody my martial types are charging so they don't get hit with a full round attack when they get there, to knock somebody prone to give a nearby ally (or allies) an attack of opportunity, or to interfere with a spell, it doesn't matter.
Making a ranged trip attempt at my caster level + my casting stat is by no means guaranteed. It is, however, ranged and playing to my best numbers. It has all the problems of tripping such as it won't work on flying things and has less chance the more legs they have and the bigger they are, but with a trait and a feat or with a relatively cheap rod, you have a chance at a debuff. Interfering with spell casters is just another situation in which it might be useful. If you want to focus on casters, take a second trait and disruptive spell to force two caster level checks, one for the injury and one for the disruptive feat to make them lose whatever spell they are casting.
It may not be super, but when you're throwing down first level spells at anything other than first through... maybe fourth level, don't expect it to be. A vanilla magic missile is dependable but weak. That's what I expect a first level spell to be.