Thanks for the lulz, OP. This gave me a good chuckle.
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Okay... So check my math, would you? I'm looking at mythic Magic Missile and just not seeing a reason to NOT prepare maximized empowered magic missiles here. 65 points? at 19th level, augmented for 130? Quicken (with spell perfection or a rod) for 260 a round? No save, no Resistance, no shield spell, no spell immunity... If a group of players are fighting something that dealing damage to seems a better call then trying to force save-or-suck's....
Well, What else is quite so reliable, hmm? *also looking at 3.5 Twin Spell and thinking 'rods, spell perfection, spend 4 points of mythic power and a couple of high level spell slots for...520 points... Well. Why not?'
Less useful? Perhaps. Very very reliable and actually quite high damage? Yup.
That costs a couple of Mythic Power, though. Not a negligible expense.
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For me... a first level spell that automatically hits, is better then me shooting a crossbow into combat with a -8 any day of the week.
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I mean, yeah, it works on incorporeal creatures, but c'mon...
Even at it's most powerful, we're talking about 5d4+5 damage at level 9.How has this spell survived sooo long when it's so terrible?
Killed high Ac enemies with it... multiple times.
Lolled every, single, time.
I also agree with phantom.
Terrible? It is only so much damage, but it isn't a level 9 spell. You can throw a lot of these out and quickly finish off an injured foe. Quite nice for a sorcerer to have actually.
Also, can be cast at the darkness.
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Okay... So check my math, would you? I'm looking at mythic Magic Missile and just not seeing a reason to NOT prepare maximized empowered magic missiles here. 65 points? at 19th level, augmented for 130? Quicken (with spell perfection or a rod) for 260 a round? No save, no Resistance, no shield spell, no spell immunity... If a group of players are fighting something that dealing damage to seems a better call then trying to force save-or-suck's....
Well, What else is quite so reliable, hmm? *also looking at 3.5 Twin Spell and thinking 'rods, spell perfection, spend 4 points of mythic power and a couple of high level spell slots for...520 points... Well. Why not?'
Less useful? Perhaps. Very very reliable and actually quite high damage? Yup.
And you know that if you finish off a truly powerful spellcaster opponent with a crazy powered magic missile, it is going to be good for a laugh.
Or when there's this annoying enemy wizard. You can see he doesn't have Shield up. You could ready a MM to interrupt his spellcasting.
Slight correction: you can't "See" if someone has shield up, it's invisible. The only way you can tell if someone has shield up is metagaming (knowing you would have hit him unless he had shield up) or spellcraft when he cast it, or seeing your magic missiles fizzle when you tried to hit him.
Slight correction: you can't "See" if someone has shield up, it's invisible. The only way you can tell if someone has shield up is metagaming (knowing you would have hit him unless he had shield up) or spellcraft when he cast it, or seeing your magic missiles fizzle when you tried to hit him.
Or when there's this annoying enemy wizard. You can see he doesn't have Shield up. You could ready a MM to interrupt his spellcasting.
DC 20+ to spot invis and Spellcraft or Detect magic.
Mind you, yes, it's hardly obvious until that first MM spangs off it.
Arcane Sight too.
Arcane sight would just let you see that he had a spell on him, and possibly the approximate level (0-2) Could be Shield, could be Mage Armor, could be Disguise Self, could be any of dozens of other spells.
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It feels like a lot of theorycraft in here. I still don't see any reason to prepare it past level 1, tbh, and really not even then.
Level 1: Color Spray and/or Sleep wins the game. Why bother with MM at all?
Level 2: The above remains true, and Burning Hands suddenly becomes better DPS.
Level 3: Scorching Ray becomes available, and both it and Burning Hands do superior DPS.
Level 4: Probably the last level that Color Spray or Sleep are auto-win (they're still good though), and Scorching Ray/Burning Hands is still doing better DPS.
Level 5: Scorching Ray stops being obviously better for a bit here, but it's technically still superior and Burning Hands is still in the lead.
Level 6: Ditto level 5.
Level 7: Magic Missile finally overtakes Burning Hands again! Wait, no it doesn't: 5d6 > 4d4+4. Also, now you get your second ray for Scorching Ray, and from here on out, it's always better single-target DPS. (edit - Wrong dps for BH. Technically MM wins at this level, but still loses to Scorching Ray.)
Level 8+: Are you really using 1st level slots for offense anymore? Honestly?(A note on Shocking Grasp: The only class I ever see bother with this spell is Magi who abuse metamagic tricks/traits in order to make it better than 5d6. Otherwise, I just don't see people using it, so I didn't bother to include it.)
1. I guess you never fight undead. Color spray those 4 zombies in there and let me know how that works out for you. Same with sleep.
Oh, and Sleep...1 round to cast. How's that standing there doing nothing and praying not to get hit and disrupted working out for you? Oh, and them zombies I mentioned before? ROFL good luck with that.
Color Spray/Burning Hands....awkward cones. Easy to hit your own party in some circumstance. "Sorry bob, but I knocked out some goblins for ya too!" 15' range max. So, either run up INTO combat and then cast (provokes AoO, d'oh!) or just stand in combat to begin with and provoke (d'oh!). Make it easy for the bad guys to get into combat with you. What a great set of spells! Sleep, only works on a 10 foot area too. More than 4 monsters might be a challenge to get that to work on.
Hardly "winning the game".
2. Ditto lvl 1.
3. Scorching Ray requires a ranged touch attack. Into combat/melee most times. Jeez, I hope your wizard took point blank shot and precise shot....most wizards do, don't they? Surely your party meat shield wont be in the way blocking line of sight or giving partial cover to the bad guys, right....meat shield NEVER run into combat. How much DPS is missing your hit b/c you rolled low? Shame you didn't have something that auto hit or something.
4. Ditto lvl 3.
5. Ditto lvl 4, which dittos lvl 3.
6. Ditto lvl 5, which dittos lvl 4, which is of course, dittoing the crap out of lvl 3.
7. I notice I haven't said anything about grease. I find it's overall use to be pretty weak. I've seen exactly 2 times in the last 2 years of gaming where it has been uber effective. I'm not saying its garbage, but if I am in a large 30'x 30' room, one 10' square area isn't THAT big of a hindrance. Oh, and Ditto lvl 6, which dittos lvl 5, which dittos lvl......I think you know where I'm going with this
8. Are you really using lvl 1 slots for offense? only if you really need to, which is where the whole utility of the spell comes into play. Are there better options? Sometimes, yeah, sure. Are there limitations to its usefullness past a certain point? Yep.
I guess basically I would tell you that Magic Missile isn't the end all be all of spells.
But then, neither are the examples you gave, for the reasons listed above.
Remind me again how that Silent Image works when fighting undead, btw?
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In summary, it's the most effective low level damage spell there is.
1: There is no defense except magic resistance or a shield spell; it's guaranteed damage against most targets.
2: You can target multiple creatures if necessary. For example, if a coven of hags is performing a ritual, you can hit a number of them and force them all to make concentration checks to interrupt the ritual.
3: It's first level. No other offensive first level spell works just as well against a 10HD enemy as it does against a 1HD enemy. Anything that allows a save will do less damage on average because of their better saves, and many (Color Spray, Sleep, hypnotism) literally have no effect at all on anything tough enough to pose a challenge to level 10 characters.
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I used it to wake up the party when targeted by sleep.
It worked pretty well than wasting 3 standard actions to wake them up.
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Fun? Sure, maybe.
Balanced? Eh, I obviously think it's below par.
Effective? Only if the target is incorporeal..
Below par compared to what in the first level range? auto-hit, force damage, no saves? Heck, as it is it's borderline 2nd level.
Yes maybe it's not the go to spell when you're a 9th level wizard prepping fifth level spells, but that's a nonsense comparison.
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Fun? Sure, maybe.
Balanced? Eh, I obviously think it's below par.
Effective? Only if the target is incorporeal..
Below par compared to what in the first level range? auto-hit, force damage, no saves? Heck, as it is it's borderline 2nd level.
Yes maybe it's not the go to spell when you're a 9th level wizard prepping fifth level spells, but that's a nonsense comparison.
Don't expect an answer. You are trying to continue a conversation that ended almost 3 years ago.
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Oh yeah, that old thing. I bet we could get people talking about how they wouldn't allow it because it's 3.5, never mind that Paizo published it themselves. :)
Paizo published it for 3.5, not Pathfinder, presumably. I actually thought it came from somewhere else as I've never seen it. Saw something close to it in a Mongoose book whose title I can't recall. for 3.5 or 3.0.
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I used it to wake up the party when targeted by sleep.
It worked pretty well than wasting 3 standard actions to wake them up.
That's rude. But I like the cut of your jib.
Anyway, to add to this TWO YEAR OLD CORPSE OF A THREAD, I absolutely enjoy Magic Missile as the surefire way to finish off enemies, interrupt spellcasters and the like. I find it utterly hilarious and silly that anyone would compare the spell to higher level spells because that is making some bold assumptions about a 1st level spell.
I mean...what 1st level spells see that much usage at higher levels? Mage Armour? Protection from X? Summon Monster I for trap springing? It's not exactly meant to be competitive. But they are there and are useful in some niche situations, and is, if anything, guaranteed to work the vast majority of the time.
Ummm ... It's an auto hit, force damage, bypasses DR, does full damage against incorporeal at range and is a 1st level spell that would do ~18 hp of damage on average. By 9th level you should also be able to cast an empowered version for an average of ~27 hp of damage, not to mention a quickened version in the same round for an average of about 45 hp of damage. Compare to a fireball which does on average about 32 hp of damage at 9th level and allows a save. Granted the fireball is an AoE, but depending on what you are fighting, it also could do no damage due to evasion, energy resistance or energy immunity (things which don't apply to magic missile).
All that said, I'm not sure I'm seeing how it sucks and deserves to be dropped.
EDIT: ninja'd by a gaggle of ninjas.
but at 9th level th fireball is empowered for 51 damage