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So, I'm probably one of the only players at the table, aside from the new peeps, that doesn't actually cheat on his rolls. Generally I roll on the table in front of everyone, while everyone else blocks line of sight somehow to their D20 via tablet, cards, rolling box+small gem dice, etc. I've noticed their "habits" and gestures when they aren't truthfully adding their D20's result, and they generally add 10 to anything that naturally rolls under a 10 and have even whispered to me to do the same whilst the DM is distracted by 5 other people. I of course refused, and just took the hit(in which I became instantly paralyzed for 6 round in between 2 Ghasts, but thankfully(sort of) rolled/slid down the slope into a deep pool of water and was eventually rescued by our Wizard's summoned water elemental) and delightfully suffered. I enjoy variation in battle, and struggling. It's far more satisfying. This is just one of many occasions. I could understand if they were rolling for total crap 4+ times in a row and wanted a break from the evil unlucky rolls being voodoo'd on them. I know one game I went 12 rounds of fixing my gun as a gunslinger because I kept rolling misfires... that was awful.
For this occasion, I think we were in Foxglove(or Foxtrott) Manor looking for the SkinSaw Murderer, down in the basement or sub-basement fighting Ghasts(6 or 7 of them). We were quiet and got the surprise round on them, in which my move was to cartwheel across the sloped surface and leap across the large pool of water yelling "Falcoooooon-" and almost landing on 2 ghasts. Then they surprisingly managed to hit my AC... I'm sure the DM was super happy with that lol.
Now, we're all tight compadres, but cheating drives me nuts. If you're going to cheat, it just ruins the point of the game if you're swinging d*** through everything with 20+ every roll at levels 1-6(current 6). I'm really surprised the DM hasn't caught on. If it's a guaranteed success on stuff, you may as well have the DM read you a bedtime story, and just pretend you did everything perfectly and "won" the game without even worrying about rolling.
My question is:
Should I inform the DM aboot it, or just leave it be? What should I do in this situation?
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inform the GM quietly, and ask him to institute a rule that all dice need to be rolled in the center of the table where everyone can see it.
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I'd say just let it be. There is a chance that the GM is well aware of what's going on and hasn't cracked down on it because he just wants everyone to have fun.
That being said, I know exactly how you feel. I'd much rather take the good with the bad as it always makes the game much more interesting. The problem I have is that when I GM I can't seem to roll under 15 and tend to murder a lot of the PCs. When I'm a PC I can't seem to roll over 10 and tend to get murdered by NPCs.
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inform the GM quietly, and ask him to institute a rule that all dice need to be rolled in the center of the table where everyone can see it.
Hahahahaha!!!
Players who cheat don't have enough respect for the GM (or other players) to follow such a mandate. Several times I've asked my players to use dice where the numbers are clearly labeled and easily visible. Each time they all but laughed at me saying things like "I spent good money on these dice, so I'm going to use them!"
As a result, I rarely know what they are actually rolling even when I'm looking directly at the die from across the table. The only recourse I'm left with involves losing indispensable players, sadly.
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Several times I've asked my players to use dice where the numbers are clearly labeled and easily visible. Each time they all but laughed at me saying things like "I spent good money on these dice, so I'm going to use them!"
As a result, I rarely know what they are actually rolling even when I'm looking directly at the die from across the table. The only recourse I'm left with involves losing indispensable players, sadly.
Make stats of their roll results to check whether your idea that they are cheating is real or not.
If the stats show as much, talk with the player(s) doing this and ask them to stop. Tell them how much it ruins your fun.
If they do not stop, do the stats in the open next game session, so that everyone can see it ;-)
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Declare every roll you make as a natural 20 until they stop. Even if you're rolling a six sided dice.
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indispensable players,
I'm not sure I believe in that concept.
Is it "I like these people and enjoy playing with them enough that it's worth putting up with them cheating"?
Or is it "if I don't put up with these players cheating, I'll be stuck without a group and not able to game"?
If the latter, get rid of them. You can find other players, somehow.
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Eh, this is one of those cases you cant escape... If everyone is doing it, you cant escape.
I dont really have that option (one says any dice roll he doesnt see doesnt count, and the other is on roll 20 so all dice rolls are open to everyone).
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I would not be able to have fun knowing this was going on.
Say that the other players cheat and then leave the party. Maybe your GM will join and create a new party with you and others.
The really great D&D or PF sessions in my mind are sessions with real good roleplaying or with lucky/unlucky dice rolls.
The only thing you will remember in a few years/months are boring PF sessions with cheating players.
It's a lot like the people that only play video games on 'god mode.'
I just really don't understand it.
It seems to by typically (though certainly not always) young person behavior. I just don't see it as much once people get into their mid 20's or so.
If all of them are doing it, not just 1 or 2, it is unlikely the GM doesn't know. Which means he is ok with it. Which means you are the odd man out. You are not going to (and should not) get the rest of the group to change and conform to your ideal game.
If it is just 1 or 2 players and/or you are pretty sure the GM doesn't know. There might be some possibility of the situation changing. Out of game have a private conversation with the GM. "Don't know if you've noticed this or not. I'm not accusing anyone specifically, but I think some of the players are not always being honest about their dice results. If that bothers you as GM, you might introduce the rule that all dice have to be in the open where everyone can see them. If it doesn't bother you, that's fine too."
You have to decide for yourself if you can stay at a table where the other players cheat. Personally, I probably would not.
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Talk to people individually, they might simply not have thought about it. There are some issues of preference here. After all 'cheat codes' exist in games for a reason. Some people prefer that stlye of play. It can be empowering to a certain extent, or maybe its just a certain kind of escapism (even if my life isnt perfect, my fantasy character is unbeatable).
There is legitimacy to that sort of behavior. The problem ofcourse is if everyone doesnt share that preference. So a conversation is necessary. Presumably these people are your friends. You should talk to them about what kind of challenge they want or dont want in the game. Then maybe talk to the gm or the group as a whole, but first talk to people quietly. Most wont react well to being publicly called out for cheating.
Another option is to run your own game for a while and insist dice are rolled in the open. You can make it subtle like creating a cool 'dice tower' to roll in as a gimmick that forces public rolling. You can then see how that goes and see if it changes the culture at all in your group.
Note: I second Kolokotroni's statement about why some people want to play; I can understand the mentality that desires self-empowerement from their RPGs (which is why I will never play call of cthulhu). But, when everybody doesnt share that preference, it causes the friction you,re experiencing.
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Personally, I would inform the GM and see what he says. What we do in our games is we toss the dice against his Gm screen--they end up in the middle of the table so everyone can see and it makes sure you roll properly.
I once had a group of players that was as you describe and what I did was I told them that they had to roll on the table for all to see. That said, I also gave each one 2 free rerolls each session (we usually played for 8 to 10 hours). That might be a solution for a home game.
Definitely inform the GM. If nothing else, getting confirmation that he knows and doesn't care is helpful.
Once, when I suspected this was happening with a fellow player, I started intentionally declaring 'clean miss' on a fair number of attack rolls, usually before the die had stopped spinning. When he questioned me about it, I commented that 'it's no fun if it's too easy'. This seemed to have stopped him, at least for a session or two.
Now, there's a slight difference here in that your associates don't really seem to be trying to conceal their cheating and are not ashamed of it, so I don't know if anything similar would work.
BTW, I commend your restraint. If a fellow player at a table had advised me to cheat, I would have said something then and there that I'm sure everybody would have heard.
My players are indispensable because they are my best friends. They are, in every sense of the word: irreplaceable. To drop them over the matter would be tantamount to actively accusing them of cheating (which there really is no evidence of anyways), and that would most definitely put a strain on the relationship since roleplaying together is one of the few things we are able to do together anymore.
Even if they weren't close to my heart, I live out in the boonies. Roleplaying is all but unheard of among the rednecks around here. Those few who have heard of it, think it's a gateway drug to Satanism.
It would take me upwards of a month to find new players, and traveling to games in distant cities and towns may well break my wallet.
So, yes, indispensable.
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You could make them stand out even more. Roll very openly and point to your die and say "11 plus my modifier of 3 makes 14". Otherwise the tone of the game you play in may not be that serious. This could be a thing for you but nobody else. If you try and it doesn't stop you may need to find a new group to play with if it is too much for you to get over. If you manage to stop the cheating be sure to let us know what helped do so.
One thing that I've had to remind one of my players again and again is that he needs to declare modifiers (such as Power Attack) BEFORE he rolls the die.
All too often it will go something like this:
"I rolled a natural 20! Yes! I power attack!"
Or
"I rolled an 8. Not going to use Deadly Aim or Rapid Strike."
It's two primarily that are doing it as needed. Originally 2 out of 4, then we got two cool new players giving us 6 total party members!(so exciting :3), but still the same 2 that are doing it.
Do you have to deal with these guys outside of the game (i.e., are the friends, coworkers, or classmates)? If not, either talk to the GM or bring it up to the entire table in a respectful fashion, whichever you're more comfortable doing.
If you do have to deal with these guys in your real life then you'll need to decide how much you care about this relative to the potential fallout. If you care enough to warrant action I'd suggest talking with them politely, in private.
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My players are indispensable because they are my best friends. They are, in every sense of the word: irreplaceable. To drop them over the matter would be tantamount to actively accusing them of cheating (which there really is no evidence of anyways), and that would most definitely put a strain on the relationship since roleplaying together is one of the few things we are able to do together anymore.
Even if they weren't close to my heart, I live out in the boonies. Roleplaying is all but unheard of among the rednecks around here. Those few who have heard of it, think it's a gateway drug to Satanism.
It would take me upwards of a month to find new players, and traveling to games in distant cities and towns may well break my wallet.
So, yes, indispensable.
The online community is enormous so that is always an option. I had to quit playing with my best friends because they cheated, didn't take the game seriously, randomly attended. Sometimes your best friends make the worst gamers. They got over me quitting and we are still good buds. Its possible.
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It's two primarily that are doing it as needed. Originally 2 out of 4, then we got two cool new players giving us 6 total party members!(so exciting :3), but still the same 2 that are doing it.Do you have to deal with these guys outside of the game (i.e., are the friends, coworkers, or classmates)? If not, either talk to the GM or bring it up to the entire table in a respectful fashion, whichever you're more comfortable doing.
If you do have to deal with these guys in your real life then you'll need to decide how much you care about this relative to the potential fallout. If you care enough to warrant action I'd suggest talking with them politely, in private.
Yeah they're my close buddies up here in Raleigh, NC. We all essentially migrated here from Southport, NC together. We don't all live together, but we're all close friends.
The online community is enormous so that is always an option. I had to quit playing with my best friends because they cheated, didn't take the game seriously, randomly attended. Sometimes your best friends make the worst gamers. They got over me quitting and we are still good buds. Its possible.My players are indispensable because they are my best friends. They are, in every sense of the word: irreplaceable. To drop them over the matter would be tantamount to actively accusing them of cheating (which there really is no evidence of anyways), and that would most definitely put a strain on the relationship since roleplaying together is one of the few things we are able to do together anymore.
Even if they weren't close to my heart, I live out in the boonies. Roleplaying is all but unheard of among the rednecks around here. Those few who have heard of it, think it's a gateway drug to Satanism.
It would take me upwards of a month to find new players, and traveling to games in distant cities and towns may well break my wallet.
So, yes, indispensable.
Another problem is not having any friends! HAHA! Self deprecating humor is best humor! But seriously, I didnt have any friends who played (we played videogames) so my only real way in was through online stuff. Roll20 is my hero!
I usually super focus into my character design what i want, so i RARELY fail anything no matter how silly. Vertical ten foot leap up a wall to attack the archer on top? No problem! But every once in a while i role a one or a two, and SMASH faceplant into said wall... It's sooooooo aggravating and yet, refreshingly fun, as i now have to deal with the consequences.
Back when i did play with 2 friends, my partner OFTEN fudged his dice role, AND the DM favored him over me (they were friends for a long time before i met them) but i was cool with it most the time. However, as it seems you aren't the only way i can see is to
1. Privately talk to each of them seperatly, that are doing it, and tell them its ruining your fun. Ask them if they could tone it down/stop. Don't bring it to the GM or in front of other players as that will only cause..
i. Denial and resentment by fudgers to you
ii. The DM might know and not really care, and now he's annoyed at table mechanics, or even worse, he has "adjusted" some things which may not work now, and he has to redo the work.
iii.The new people might even start trying to do it, and now you have more fudgers
2. If 1 doesnt work, then it's time to address the table. hopefully 1-3 wont take effect and it will resolve peaceably.
Also roll20 is poo compared to d20 :)
(...) Should I inform the DM aboot it, or just leave it be? What should I do in this situation?
Yes, you should inform the DM about this, and let him decide what to do.
Personally I think you should suggest playing Amber Diceless RPG, that should fix your problem at the core.
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Welp, this is foncusing. >_>
I guess it comes down to talking to the DM very subtly/casually without pointing fingers, or attempting a conversation with the two friends/players.
@Matthew Downie - ITS SO TEMPTING. My sarcastic/smartass/passive-aggressive side is eagerly pushing my buttons right now.
Oh, and thank you everyone for all of your suggestions. It's all been very helpful for me and assessing the value of everyone and the game and aiming me at what I should probably do.
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i would definitely start by asking the GM about it- he may already be on top of it... i experienced this exact situation as a GM and although i never called out the culprits at the table i did take care of it- i started just reducing every damage total those two players gave me by half and periodically imposing worse consequences on 'made' saves when a spell was only targeting one or both of them. it was all behind the scenes so they got to keep playing the way they enjoyed but the other players never (or, at least, rarely) felt useless/overshadowed (because even though they weren't 'rolling as well' they seemed to have about the same success rate at being effective at killing things/surviving). i had one player who felt like you do and eventually came to me about it, when i explained what i had been doing he felt much better about the whole thing.
so, ask him- it might already be handled. if its not because he knows but didn't know how to handle it feel free to tell him what worked for me. if he didn't know then he will and you two can talk about potential solutions moving forward.
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If you feel the need to cheat at a roleplaying game...you have a serious problems.
On that note, I had a game where people were cheating like so. During a break a conversation came up about people cheating in sports. This lead to cheating during RPG's, and I voiced the above opinion. By the end of the night, almost all of the cheating had stopped.
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So DR10\Not Cheating
I'm not entirely convinced that cheating back at the cheaters is the best solution. Just escalates the issue and trains the cheaters that cheating is OK and they will take that to other game tables.
Frankly if they are close friends then you all should respect each other, and this isn't showing respect. If you are all close than an open table discussion about cheating and stopping it should be fine.
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IMO everyone (GM included) should roll in front of each other. At our table all eyes watch the dice tumble. It is exciting!
Odd thing I've noticed over the years. The more important the roll is the closer to the center of the table the person rolls so that everyone can witness.
GM's often need to make secret rolls like perception checks and that's ok. But I general we roll out in the open.
-MD
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So DR10\Not Cheating
I'm not entirely convinced that cheating back at the cheaters is the best solution. Just escalates the issue and trains the cheaters that cheating is OK and they will take that to other game tables.
Frankly if they are close friends then you all should respect each other, and this isn't showing respect. If you are all close than an open table discussion about cheating and stopping it should be fine.
One of my very good friends some years ago was an absolute cheater. All of the gaming party knew that. Yet we never confronted him openly about it, because it clearly stemmed from a deep psychological issue and however close you are, a gaming session is NOT the place to enquire about this kind of things.
We rolled with it and based a lot on roleplay (easy in the WoD system) and he left after a few sessions because he had lost interest in a game he could not WIN :-(
Tell the GM. If it was me as GM I'd either give you bonus XP each session, or fudge my own dice so that the other characters suffered and you were rewarded. After a few sessions of that I'd tell them all that either I would roll all their checks for them or they could do it using dice I approved and out on the table for all to see.
Life is too short to spend time doing something that aggravates you and rewards cheating ;)
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Issues like this is where a GM can most acutely and most stealthily employ his power. Fudging rolls and adjudicating results is their bread and butter. If he really thinks players are cheating and is fine letting them think they're getting away with something then simply play out combat and skill checks in a more cinematic manner and less of a "you hit/miss"/"you succeed/fail" binary one. Make difficult fights difficult. Ignore die results in order to challenge them. Etc. You don't need to justify the outcomes as all you need to do is relate the events as they unfold in-game. At no point is a GM compelled to tell players that NPC y is power attacking or being defensive, though giving them in-game cues as they make sense is fine and encouraged.
Tell the GM. If it was me as GM I'd either give you bonus XP each session, or fudge my own dice so that the other characters suffered and you were rewarded. After a few sessions of that I'd tell them all that either I would roll all their checks for them or they could do it using dice I approved and out on the table for all to see.
Life is too short to spend time doing something that aggravates you and rewards cheating ;)
I agree but it is difficult when a GM wont punish wrongdoers. Especially those caught time and time again fudging stats from Herolab...
I agree with the statement of "as long as everyone is having fun..." but at some point it just isnt fair.
Talk to people individually, they might simply not have thought about it. There are some issues of preference here. After all 'cheat codes' exist in games for a reason. Some people prefer that stlye of play. It can be empowering to a certain extent, or maybe its just a certain kind of escapism (even if my life isnt perfect, my fantasy character is unbeatable).
There is legitimacy to that sort of behavior. The problem ofcourse is if everyone doesnt share that preference. So a conversation is necessary. Presumably these people are your friends. You should talk to them about what kind of challenge they want or dont want in the game. Then maybe talk to the gm or the group as a whole, but first talk to people quietly. Most wont react well to being publicly called out for cheating.
Another option is to run your own game for a while and insist dice are rolled in the open. You can make it subtle like creating a cool 'dice tower' to roll in as a gimmick that forces public rolling. You can then see how that goes and see if it changes the culture at all in your group.
This. You can speak to the in a non-accusatory, private manner about it. It may well be an uncomfortable conversation - obviously, they're encouraging you to do so, thus I'm unsure of exactly how worried they all are about it.
Worth noting, I've been accused of cheating before. Extremely awkward, especially since (after someone complained about my hard-to-read dice*) I had created a stat-sheet of my rolls to show the GM. It showed I'd rolled three twenties and nine 1's out of seventy dice rolls. Often I find I have better rolls using actual dice when rolling on a table or on certain critical rolls, but less so when the ultimate outcome of a roll doesn't matter as much. I'm also really bad at guessing dice rolls when I run a game by random choice (say GM has a number, I have a number and we add it - it's almost always below 10 for me). This doesn't matter if people see me or not or what dice I use. These are just my tendencies. Heck, depending on the game, I took photographic evidence of the rolls I made just to avoid this kind of thing.
It's extremely frustrating.
THAT SAID, this is not your situation, clearly, but I figured it was worth mentioning for the general conversation.
* Which, by the way, I was using because a) we had few dice to go around, and b) we needed to speed up play - we'd been going really slowly and were consistently running out of time on our sessions. Since the game was at my house, I brought out the only other set of dice I had. They were terrible dice, but I used them because no one else wanted to touch them, and passing all the dice from each player to each player was taking a really long time. EDIT: I used them because they were annoying and hard to use, so I was doing it as a favor. Then I get called out as cheating. Uuuuuuuuurg. :/
EDIT 2: If it's a problem that we pass dice, and you don't like these dice, the BRING YOUR OWN DICE. Sigh.
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Tell the GM. If it was me as GM I'd either give you bonus XP each session, or fudge my own dice so that the other characters suffered and you were rewarded. After a few sessions of that I'd tell them all that either I would roll all their checks for them or they could do it using dice I approved and out on the table for all to see.
Life is too short to spend time doing something that aggravates you and rewards cheating ;)
I agree but it is difficult when a GM wont punish wrongdoers. Especially those caught time and time again fudging stats from Herolab...
I agree with the statement of "as long as everyone is having fun..." but at some point it just isnt fair.
And this point is precisely when you stop having fun and thus something has to be done to restore it.
Yep. I have to confess, at this table I would start feeling pretty irate at blatant cheating. I have only one player that "fudges" their dice, and it's at a level that is not detracting from everyone's fun. As I have another player with mazing luck at times, it's ignorable (on occasion that same player has had some amazing UNluck, and I know they are not cheating).
Even if they weren't close to my heart, I live out in the boonies. Roleplaying is all but unheard of among the rednecks around here. Those few who have heard of it, think it's a gateway drug to Satanism.
It would take me upwards of a month to find new players, and traveling to games in distant cities and towns may well break my wallet.
I'm in the same boat. 2 hours away from a decent size city.
One of my players is playing a magus. He likes to declare he is spellstriking only after he hits with the attack....very annoying. I remind him every gaming session.
I'd think that ridiculing the players who roll low numbers but announce high totals should shame them into better behavior. You also might want to suggest using the Hero Point rules so that players have a legitimate way to add +4 to their roll, get a reroll, or even avoid death once in a while.
We don't have anybody who rolls their dice in secret, but we do have one guy with an old Basic D&D d20 worn almost round with age and a bunch of crystal Game Science style dice with unpainted numbers. He also has a bunch of unfortunate swirly pattern dice with dark numbers which even he has to pick up and inspect closely to read sometimes. That said, if he's cheating it must be by changing his rolls to lower numbers.
Our other DM seems proud of his dice and casts them right into the middle of the table, often knocking minis aside or even bowling them over with oversized d6s. His ham-like hands and sausage fingers have been the death of many a custom mini! At least I remembered to pick up some more super glue recently...
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I've seen GMs who don't cheat per say, but eventually find a set of dice that are clearly off-kilter and roll real high all the time, then they stick with that set for the rest of their GMing days. Ironically, they use many of the same excuses as cheating players when confronted.
On tables where cheating is common, are the games usually run at the deadly end of the spectrum? Are they cheating because they think it's the only way they can keep their character, or for some other reason?
Find out why they're cheating. They might be doing it for a particular reason. Maybe they think the GM is unfair. Maybe they think the encounters are too challenging. Maybe they hate the randomness of the dice. Maybe they just do it and don't think anything of it. Then tell them how that makes you feel in a way that doesn't pass judgment on them.
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My players are indispensable because they are my best friends. They are, in every sense of the word: irreplaceable. To drop them over the matter would be tantamount to actively accusing them of cheating (which there really is no evidence of anyways), and that would most definitely put a strain on the relationship since roleplaying together is one of the few things we are able to do together anymore.
Even if they weren't close to my heart, I live out in the boonies. Roleplaying is all but unheard of among the rednecks around here. Those few who have heard of it, think it's a gateway drug to Satanism.
It would take me upwards of a month to find new players, and traveling to games in distant cities and towns may well break my wallet.
So, yes, indispensable.
Some of us rednecks do play, you might be surprised at how many. Redneck does not always mean uneducated and close minded.
Back to your regularly scheduled liberal leaning redneck bashing.
inform the GM quietly, and ask him to institute a rule that all dice need to be rolled in the center of the table where everyone can see it.Hahahahaha!!!
Players who cheat don't have enough respect for the GM (or other players) to follow such a mandate. Several times I've asked my players to use dice where the numbers are clearly labeled and easily visible. Each time they all but laughed at me saying things like "I spent good money on these dice, so I'm going to use them!"
As a result, I rarely know what they are actually rolling even when I'm looking directly at the die from across the table. The only recourse I'm left with involves losing indispensable players, sadly.
The question here is one of personalities. I GM around a full size kitchen table with five fellows. I trust most of them to make their rolls and my eyesight is still pretty good. We do have a fairly well understood rule though. Which is after you declare your roll result, if I question it and you've moved/obfuscated your die rolling location then you roll again. Because if I want to I am going to get up, walk around the table and look at the die you just rolled myself.
The idea that the players might be fudging "just to stay alive" is one reason I suggested Hero Points.
@Ravingdork - I had a nice looking set of amber "firefly" dice with a d20 which seemed prone to both nat 1's and nat 20's, which was fun as a DM. I eventually noticed that it didn't quite sit flat on one side and had to stop using it though. I've always meant to buy another similar d20 so I can use the set again since the other dice seem OK.
For some reason I usually seem much better at finding dice which tend to roll low. I sometimes almost begin to wonder if dice manufacturers might make a bunch of "duds" so players will buy lots of dice to find some which roll well. Of course that's ridiculous. There's probably just an invisible supernatural force which controls the outcome of my d20 rolls.