I'm trying to think. They might not be the most flavorful or entertaining, but what are the five most combatant character concepts?
1> Pouncing Barbarian (for pure physical damage output)
2> Synthesist Summoner with a couple level dip into Paladin (with DR, SR, immunities to all elements, insane AC)
3> Elf Hexcrafter, focused on the Slumber Hex (shuts an opponent down, may be weaker in higher levels)
4> Oracle with a dip into sorcerer (minmaxed for pure magical damage output)
5> Pure Wizard? I still need to do the math, but I think I had an arcane trickster that could do more damage with a spell than a pure wizard. Either way, I don't really know who deserves my last pick.
I dunno. I'm not saying it would be a fun game to fun, with these five characters, but they'd be able to get stuff done.
What do you think? Who would you consider the five strongest characters?
Nature Sorcerer with buffed up animal companion is a one man army.
Champion of Irori is pretty sick.
Zen Archer Monk done right.
Really depends one available material.
Pretty much anything that's not 3rd party (and nothing 3.5).
I really like Champions of Irori, but I'm not sure that I'd throw one into the list. Or maybe I just wasn't making them right? (I'd almost always go with a crit-based Hungry Ghost Monk).
At what lvl cause I heard sythesist is unkillable at lower lvls but by time lvl 20 it balances put and they aren't the best
All levels. Not just max, or starting, but overall.
At level seven, a synthesist can be immune to fire, electricity, cold, sonic, and acid. That immunity lasts til the end of their career. At level seven, if they were so inclined, they could pick up Dimensional Agility, and start towards Dimensional Dervish, only of the earliest classes to be able to do so (beat only by a Samsaran Wizard or Sorcerer, I think). Eventually, they can have SR 11 + Summoner level, damage reduction, an AC that constantly rises with level. They focus almost purely on Charisma, so at least a 2 level dip into Paladin cranks all saving throws. I dunno. I haven't played a level 15 with this build, but on paper, it looks pretty nice.
Pretty much anything that's not 3rd party (and nothing 3.5).
I really like Champions of Irori, but I'm not sure that I'd throw one into the list. Or maybe I just wasn't making them right? (I'd almost always go with a crit-based Hungry Ghost Monk).
It's the turning ki into smite that makes it broken. Smite all day!
It'd be more "fun" playing the worst 5 builds known to man! That would be some challenge!
I'd prefer a tiefling Magus personally - better Con / tail fun / free claws or bite, but hey that's just nitpicking!
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That's what I liked about it. Aasimar, Level 1 Crusader Cleric of Shizuru (with the Repose Domain)(with the feat, Crusader's Flurry, to be able to flurry with a katana: starting crit range of 18-20), 4 levels of Hospitaler Paladin (a crap ton more channel energies with a Meditation Crystal means a ton more ki points), 3 Levels of Champion of Irori, and the rest Hungry Ghost Monk/Qinggong Monk. Bleeding Critical, the Bless Weapon spell (with several level 1 pearls of power, and maybe a handful of Implanted Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stones), Crane Riposte (with the Threatening Defender trait) with Punishing Kick (interrupt the opponents attack by pushing them back out of melee range, and knocking them prone). Gentle Rest Domain ability plus Medusa's Wrath (bonus feat, don't need the prereqs) with a Necklace of Might Fists (Speed).
I say I really like the Champion of Irori, but what I mean is, it's one of my favorite character concepts. I love the idea.
But, while he can smite all day, and smite evil OR chaos...smiting may not bring his power up to the level of other character concepts, I don't think.
It'd be more "fun" playing the worst 5 builds known to man! That would be some challenge!
I completely agree. Having a table full of broken characters is not my idea of fun. I'm just curious as to how strong a party of five could potentially be.
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Meh... my experience has been that two characters that compliment one another are way stronger than two characters that are individually powerful but clash. It's true for any five characters as well.
"What's the most optimal party build?" is a pretty common and contested thread topic, though.
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eldritch knight: Trapper Ranger 1/Wizard 5 (teleportation)/EK10/AA4 is the most powerful character you can play.
after that
cleric
debuffer barbarian
debuffer hexcrfter magus
paladin
my opinion is based not only on DPR, buy versatility and depth of function. an EK archer cant deal as much physical damage as a pouncing debuffer barbarian, but he can cast 9th level spells and still deal about 150 dpr @20 for targets with super high magical defenses. he can also be the party trap smith with disable device and trapfinding as class features, then dex as his main physical stat gives him good use out of a ring of evasion.
having the ability to shoot someone with an antimagic field then deal 120-150 dpr on that target is very, very powerful.
*clerics can fill multiple roles adequately and still cast 9th level support spells, and my god the summons they have on there list make them such a crazy base class.
*debuffer barbarians are the only physical class that can negate magical defenses to get to the target, anti magic field? sundered! prismatic wall? sundered! illusionary terrain? sundered! then run, pounce, kill.
*hex crafter magus applies 8 debuffs to the target at once, then shocking grasps the face off the target next round, or if you quicken cast it the same round. applying cursed (-4 to saves) then sickened and shaken (-4 more to saves) lets your party caster serve a save or suck spell at a near 95% success rate. not to mention entangled, fatigued, and stunned, for your melee teammates to beat the living hell out of it.
*paladin completely self sufficient. can heal to full hp with on lay-on hands, deal nearly enough damage to ko a target in one combat round with smite evil, and has an ac thats comparable to a fighter turtle.
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As long as you're not defining "powerful" as the ability to inflict damage only then you're pretty much left with (once certain levels have been reached) where the 5 most powerful classes are all full casters.
So, in no particular order:
1) Wizard
2) Cleric
3) Druid
4) Witch
5) Arcanist (if were counting the new advanced classes)
I would give an honorable mention to the Spell Sunder Greater Beast Totem Barbarian.
Please note, this is not to imply that other characters aren't important, powerful, useful, or necessary. Rather while other classes possess powerful abilities in combat or at negating the affects of combat full casters possess abilities that you to fundamentally alter the direction of the game. They get to play god with the world to a certain degree. And to me, that is what being the "most powerful" is.
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What do you think? Who would you consider the five strongest characters?
While I enjoy theory-crafting, its pretty hard to say which characters are the most powerful without knowing the situation or who they're teaming with - most powerful doesn't necessarily mean whoever deals the highest damage to has the highest AC.
For our purposes we'll assume a degree of self-sufficiency, high survivability, out-of-combat versatility and the ability to put someone down. I'm going to list the most powerful characters we've seen played in our group - all of which I had some input in.
Tiefling 1st level Oracle (Lore) / 19th level Oath of Vengeance Paladin
The dip is primarily for the Sidestep Secret. The Tiefling's favored class bonus really allows them to maximize the awesome ability of Lay on Hands as a defensive tool while Oath of Vengeance allows him to maximize Lay of Hands as an offensive tool. Feats include Fey Foundling, the Eldritch Heritage feats for the Orcish bloodline and lots of Extra Lay on Hands. Smart spell selection puts the character over the top.
Goblin 15th level Brawler-Fighter / 2nd level Master of Many Styles / 3rd level ???
With the full Crane style feat line, Snake Fang and extensive use of Two-Weapon Fighting this character has high saves, a ridiculous AC, more attacks per round than you can count and is absolute murder against enemy spell-casters. He was also built with high Stealth and Disable Device skills to provide some out-of-combat utility. We never got him past 17th, but the last three levels should either be Rogue or Wizard, either of which would add a lot more versatility and a fair bit more damage than a few more levels of Fighter would have.
Human 2nd level Unbreakable Fighter / 18th level Invulnerable Rager & Urban Barbarian
Solid AC, excellent saves (including Superstition), high melee damage, solid ranged damage and world class DR that makes this character the hardest to kill i've ever seen. Also has a nice range of skills and once rage-cycling kicks in, look out.
Half-Elven 19th level Summoner / 1st level Dragoon
A mounted Summoner with a powerful eidolon who can maximize shared bonuses and spells. Also takes advantage of the Eldritch Heritage feats with the Orcish Bloodline for strength boosts and an increase in size to grow with his mount. Tons of versatility, spell-casting and melee combat ability.
Kitsune 20th level Sorcerer (Fey)
While this character doesn't have as much versatility as the others, she was so good at what she did that she deserves a mention on this list. Enchantment spell DC's were so high that whenever she encountered something that she couldn't control, she usually had a handful of controlled minions with her who could handle it. A Cross-blooded version of this build (Serpentine) may hold even more potential.
Honorable mentions:
Human 20th level Sorcerer (Arcane Bloodline)
Far and away the most effective, most versatile spell caster I've ever seen.
Half-Elven 20th level Master Summoner
From 1st to 20th, just absolutely devastating. High Charisma and a customizable eidolon allows for good out-of-combat utility.
Dwarven 2nd level Wild Rager / 18th level Theologian (Madness)
Nearly unlimited use of Vision of Madness alone makes the character an absolute nightmare to deal with. A couple of levels of Wild Rager lets him really help lay the smack down when the situation calls for it.
I briefly had a level 12 cagm barby that could easily achieve 400 dpr. I changed character as he was breaking the game.
Inquisitor15/guns5 + named bullet = 5k + dmg
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Mandatory link to 3.5 tiers.
Mandatory link to 3.5 tiers.Sure it's probably been said before but I'd say the level of the character adjusts the tiers also.
That's been said before in the tier list. Its not perfect, but its a way to put characters next to eachother and judge them in some fashion. In this case versatility and their ability to perform in their expect role compared to others. Lots of variables to everything, and people do tend to play with houserules and various GM styles. Its also not focused entire in combat.
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I think 5 characters together, so a team, you would need to have Sync/some form of synergy.
Dwarf Paladin (Stonelord) 20: Here comes your paladin/tank champion of justice with an elder earth elemental pet, phase strike to ignore armor of his foes, breaking any objects in his way, virtually immune to critical hits, bleed, poison etc...and a whole bunch of stalwart defender abilities. This is the meat shield/tank of the party.
Halfling Rogue (Filcher) 20: Your halfling rogue to the max, he can actually steal the gear of your enemies in the middle of combat with no penalties. Removing gear from high level opponents is often a certain way to win a fight without much effort. With all his skill points, he will spend part time as the face.
Elf Conjurer 20: Because you are going to need battlefield control and gate in powerful outsiders to help in battle. The wizard comes armed with all the right tools for the job.
Aasimar Oracle (Purifier) 20: The healer of the group, also benefit from very powerful planar allies when needed. The ability to turn evil outsiders come in handy.
Half-Orc Alchemist (Bombardier) 20: Here's come the dps, combined with many extracts that he can share with his buddies and most likely getting the philosopher stone as his final discovery. He can resurrect people with no penalty and make money without much effort. Also buff them up with infusions. The half-orc racial to do more damage with bombs really come in handy.
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That's what I liked about it. Aasimar, Level 1 Crusader Cleric of Shizuru (with the Repose Domain)(with the feat, Crusader's Flurry, to be able to flurry with a katana: starting crit range of 18-20), 4 levels of Hospitaler Paladin (a crap ton more channel energies with a Meditation Crystal means a ton more ki points), 3 Levels of Champion of Irori, and the rest Hungry Ghost Monk/Qinggong Monk. Bleeding Critical, the Bless Weapon spell (with several level 1 pearls of power, and maybe a handful of Implanted Cracked Vibrant Purple Prism Ioun Stones), Crane Riposte (with the Threatening Defender trait) with Punishing Kick (interrupt the opponents attack by pushing them back out of melee range, and knocking them prone). Gentle Rest Domain ability plus Medusa's Wrath (bonus feat, don't need the prereqs) with a Necklace of Might Fists (Speed).
I say I really like the Champion of Irori, but what I mean is, it's one of my favorite character concepts. I love the idea.
But, while he can smite all day, and smite evil OR chaos...smiting may not bring his power up to the level of other character concepts, I don't think.
The idea behind this Champion build rocks, however correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Champion aspect of it had to worship Iori and here you are a Cleric of Shizuru, so was there a rule change somewhere that I overlooked?
About the champion, I asked about it and everyone agreed: Pathfinder allows for Polytheism. Irori won't be my patron god, but I'll still worship him.
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I believe the team need to complement eachothers primary stats and strong skills.
Wizard (int) - knowledges + controller
Paladin (Dex+con+Cha) - no epic skills but + tank & archer
Bard (Cha) - party face +support
Cleric (Wis) - sense motive + healer & support
Druid (Wis+Str) - Perception, survival, climb, swim + Combat power house & controller
A barbarian pouncer might also be able to fill the Druids role. However some roles are fixed; the wizard, cleric and Bard are best at their tasks.
This team will keep on going, through support and heal, even past the wizard practically runs out of spells.
i agree, a party is better than the sum of its parts... (for proof see 2WF/kukris/butterfly sting + tetsubo/power attack)
but for a single powerful character: vanilla summoner.
pouncing quadruped (with arms)= iterative attacks+max natural attacks (huge with tons of str...)- can keep up with most fighters' DPR
summoner still gets its own turn (to buff/heal eidolon, or dimension door E to pounce/full-attack position)
requires Cha also, so very easy to pick up Improved familiar (to further break action economy)- faerie dragon and/or UMD allows familiar to provide spell support via wands/scrolls.
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There is also the Scion of Humanity Aasimiar Lunar Oracle, which, IMO, can get quite cheesy(Like, almost to 3.5e levels of absurdity). The character gets Charisma to AC, Reflex and initiative. He/she also gets an animal companion that levels up FASTER then that of a druid(aasimiar favored class bonus), and access to the entire cleric/oracle spell list AND the entire wizard/sorcerer spell list via the spell paragon surge. By taking racial heritage (half-elf) they can get their hands on Paragon surge. By getting Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) they can use Paragon Surge to -temporarily- gain improved eldritch heritage (Arcane) which, essentially, lets them get any spells from the wiz/sorc list they want. In addition, they can get any cleric/oracle spell by using paragon surge for expanded arcana. You are already ridiculously powerful as is, but if you -really- want you can even take 2 levels of paladin to get cha to all your saves as well.
This build can also be done with a nature mystery oracle, but Lunar Mystery does it a bit better because it gives you better animal companion choices. With a Nature Oracle, since you are medium size your animal companion choices are limited to picks that are bleh compared to the options Lunar has(You can get the ever-popular big cat with Lunar(a tiger) while nature basically forces you to get a lame horse.) If your DM allows small-size aasimiar(as they are said to exist in some splatbooks) then nature becomes more viable since small nature oracles have better companion choices then medium ones by far.
This, as of now, is probably the most ridiculous character you can make in pathfinder barring broken 3rd party stuff like Eldritch Godling and Dragon Rider. After this, the other most powerful characters would be a high level wizard and high-level cleric, as those two classes are THE most powerful in the game when they get into higher levels, as per the 3.5e tier list.
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Takhisis beat me to it but ya, Scion of Humanity Aasimar Dual-Cursed Lunar Oracle wins the most powerful class hands down at virtually all levels. Let me add though that you shouldn't take the 2 levels of Paladin to get CHA to saves, you should cast Bestow Grace of the Champion for CHA to all saves (twice to reflex~!).
After that its probably an Aasimar False Priest Sorcerer for essentially the same reasons.
After that's its up for grabs.
i like that oracle build, but it really peaks at 14th... at 14th you can already use paragon surge for improved eldritch heritage [arcane] (or expanded arcana), and your animal companion is as powerful as it will ever get- every level you gain from there represents 2 levels worth of wasted favored class bonus. it's also a little bit of a slow starter... its spread kind of thin on feats and depends on the animal companion for damage. if you get to play it from 6 to 14 though you're in good shape :)
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Even early, you have CHA to initiative at 1, then at 3 to AC/Reflex. You will fall slightly behind the Druid at level 3 arguably, though Aasimar's ability to fast advance the Animal Companion with Favored Class bonus comes in handy here. Really the Druid and Summoner are the only classes that can compete prior to Level 6 and very little comes close after that, until it hits 11 and just sprints ahead of everyone. It actually peaks at 11th which is when you can start hacking the Wizard/Sorcerer List with Paragon Surge - Improved Eldritch Heritage.
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Takhisis, a dev once told me (it's nothing official, as far as I know), that he personally wouldn't allow that temporary spell known trick at his table, when I was talking about it. That any feat that grants you a bonus is stuck to that bonus; meaning, if you used Paragon Surge to grant Weapon Focus (Longbow), you wouldn't be able to use it for Weapon Focus (Longsword) later on. And I'd agree with him now. It's a little bit too cheesy.
Also, KrythePhreak, while I like that Champion build, I like another one better, that's similar. Hungry Ghost/Qinggong Monk 15 (with Vows, and the adopted Aasimar trait, Englightened Warrior, so that I can be Neutral Good), 1 Crusader Cleric (now I'm flurrying with a Katana), 2 Fighter (the character is kinda feat hungry), 2 Wild Rager/Hurler Barbarian (with the lesser celestial totem (double healing when I crit while I rage), Extra Rage, and Gore Fiend to regain my meager rounds of rage (maxes at 16/day, so Gore Fiend really helps with this crit based build)). He'll eventually have a +5 lifesurging vicious katana, which works works awesomely with Sipping Demon (every melee attack gains me 6 temp. hp, then I take 1d6 damage). Conductive Speed Amulet of Mighty Fists. Lots of other goodies, but yeah, he's cool. Gotta head home now, though.
Well Transforming into a Lycanthrope is optional, you are not by default a lycanthrope at Lunar Oracle 20, so you don't have to worry about -2 CHA for being a Lycanthrope unless you want to use your 1/day transformation. While CHA to saves is very nice, I prefer the surety that Mind-Affecting Immunity gives as it is one of the few ways to avoid being hit with Limited Wish + Geas for no save mind control and avoiding such Saves altogether is usually the better option. Also, Lore's mysteries are pretty weak for a Paragon Surge user. The only desirable ones are Sidestep Secret and Lore Keeper.
Mental Acuity for example is a waste of a mystery since you can just Wish yourself a +5 inherent bonus to INT and the two will not stack. Arcane Archivist is waste of gold and a higher level spell slot so pretty bleh when you have the whole Sorcerer/Wizard list thanks to Improved Eldritch Heritage. Spontaneous Symbology is likewise useless. Brain Drain while interesting isn't quite as awesome as the ability to inflict Rage on an enemy spellcaster. The remaining knowledge skill buffers have their uses, but they aren't really anything I'd give up an insane number of temporary HP for (seriously chuck a mass cure X wounds at your party and now they all have a huge HP buffer), or an Su Beast Shape IV ability and Moonlight Bridge does let you make Walls of Force, which you can use to "bridge" the ground the ceiling and seal off 10ft. wide spaces (ie. most doors).
Also, I really really like Misfortune and Fortune.
1-5) My dimensional dervishing natural lycranthrope master summoner.
Most capable character I've ever made. Vastly more so than even my child vampire in an evil campaign that ended up TPKing the party through amazing roleplay.
Any lvl 20 paladin with his s%#t together. They're nigh unkillable.
1-5)Druid
Any lvl 20 paladin with his s%#t together. They're nigh unkillable.
If by nigh-unkillable you mean defeated in a single swift action by a Quickened Limited Wish duplicating Geas/Quest, yes... they are unkillable.
Any lvl 20 paladin with his s%#t together. They're nigh unkillable.If by nigh-unkillable you mean defeated in a single swift action by a Quickened Limited Wish duplicating Geas/Quest, yes... they are unkillable.
Does a Wish duplicating a compulsion not count as a compulsion? I ask because 17th level Paladins are immune to compulsion effects...
...and since when can you Quicken a Limited Wish spell?
Since you have a rod (or a Masters staff of Necromancy) and true a Paladin would be immune to that... guess the better option for dealing with them is trapping them in a Mage's Magnificent Enclosure with shrunken lava pits or suicide Explosive Rune carrying Summons or casting a Word of Chaos at CL 27 to automatically Stun, Confuse and Deafen you, while having a Quickened Summon Coup de grace you. No matter how you slice it though, a caster has a number of no save ways to off you in a single round with casual ease.
Basic Rogue and Monk are the most powerful classes. why because everyone rates them as the worst there for they will be under estimated when they kick you ass.
Does being underestimated qualify for sneak attack? Do I get to double it if I'm a Halfling!?
i love paladins but their 20th level ability actually significantly weakens smite evil... go pally 19/oracle 1 with lore or nature for the AC boost