As the title says, do you want the devs to expand and improve on the system? Maybe featuring it in APs and future supplements? What do you think?
I would like to, yes. But then, I'm an old Ars Magica fan and I like the flexibility as well as the flavor.
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I would love to see some support for it. I feel like if it got included in products, such as a theme in an AP or maybe just a few casters, than it would reach a wider audience and perhaps promote the use of the subsystem. I am thinking kind of like the inclusion of the downtime rules in The Demon's Heresy.
You want an honest answer? Quite frankly the system has never sung to me. It's the most confusing noun/verb magic system I've ever had the misfortune to try to puzzle out, and quite frankly, the least inspiring I've ever seen.
How is it confusing? Like...it is actually pretty easy if you ask me. No stupid skill checks or anything (like Truespeech from Tome of Magic). Simple, add the numbers and go
You want an honest answer? Quite frankly the system has never sung to me. It's the most confusing noun/verb magic system I've ever had the misfortune to try to puzzle out, and quite frankly, the least inspiring I've ever seen.How is it confusing? Like...it is actually pretty easy if you ask me. No stupid skill checks or anything (like Truespeech from Tome of Magic). Simple, add the numbers and go
I understand where LazarX is coming from. It's specifically not "add the numbers and go." If I want to combine a third level target word with two second level effect words, what's the final level of the spell? How does this change if I boost the target word? (Boost, of course, is a level 0 meta word).
It's also got lots of arbitrary restrictions -- why, for example, can't I use Barrier with Detection words to set up a sort of tripwire that tells me when "something evil this way comes"? Why does Force Block last a round, Force Shield minutes, and Force Armor tens of minutes?
Even the noun/verb distinction isn't really followed. Ars Magica had honest-to-Deity nouns and verbs; the spell to create water was, literally, "Create Water." Detect-Alignment Barrier doesn't quite fit that paradigm.
But that, to me, is an argument that they actually need more support for WoP.
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God please no. Don't take 40+ pages out of another RPG line product on that travesty. In fact, can we errata the original words of power out of Ultimate Magic and get the cantrips that got left on the editing room floor?
If they want to put something in a supplement line then that's cool because I just won't buy it.
I don't get what is so bad about the WoP. Where they underpowered compared to the wizard/cleric's current spell list? Yeah, no doubt. But that is because the current spell caster tend is rediculously over powered. What they allow though (Especially for spontantious casters) is even more versatility for blasters.
Sounds like a cool idea, but I'd have to find a GM willing to allow words of power in their game first. So far I haven't been able to try the system. Every GM shudders in horror before saying "no" in their 'end of discussion' voice.
Again, I don't see why...
Hell I was glad when a blaster sorcerer went with WoP over the normal spell list. The WoP have a much more interesting feel to them (instead of the "prepackaged" feel of normal spells) and are not nearly are easy to break as the wizard's spell list
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I'd like to see more support for WoP, especially faqs and maybe a how-to guide.
No. I'd rather have support for subsystems that actually work,like Psionics, Pact Magic or Path of War (aka Weeaboo Fightan Magic). When I want freeform magic, I play Mage, Ars Magica or Myranor.
How does WoP not work? There is nothing wrong with the system short of the fact that there is poor support for it, and so a limited spell selection. Short of that, the system actually works pretty well.
and maybe the freeform magic of things like Ars Magica might work for you, but I know a lot of people who like Pathfinder AND want a free-form sort of magic and who really don't like the whole "Pre-packaged fire-and-forget spell" system that Vancian-esque magic is...
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Folks interested in Words of Power will definitely want to check out Deep Magic from Kobold Press when it comes out! :)
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No. I'd rather have support for subsystems that actually work,like Psionics, Pact Magic or Path of War (aka Weeaboo Fightan Magic). When I want freeform magic, I play Mage, Ars Magica or Myranor.How does WoP not work?
It's unnecessarily complex, clunky, and confusing. Case in point from above: "If I want to combine a third level target word with two second level effect words, what's the final level of the spell?"
It is kind of weird that Paizo would release a magic subsystem that never gets supported afterwards. I guess they consider it an embarrassment best left forgotten. :/
It is kind of weird that Paizo would release a magic subsystem that never gets supported afterwards. I guess they consider it an embarrassment best left forgotten. :/
Yeah, I also think its weird. They supported the new classes and mention new spells all the time, but forget about a subsystem that took as much space as 3 or 4 classes in a book.
I don't like it either. I have to go around and look in the book for every spell I want to create. I guess I could create them before the game starts, but that is more book keeping. I like the idea behind the system. It just seems to me like it would slow the game down until I got certain things memorized.
I am not saying the system would not work. I am wondering if it is worth the effort for most people. As a GM I would just use the normal casting system of WoP did show up in an AP.
It's unnecessarily complex, clunky, and confusing. Case in point from above: "If I want to combine a third level target word with two second level effect words, what's the final level of the spell?"No. I'd rather have support for subsystems that actually work,like Psionics, Pact Magic or Path of War (aka Weeaboo Fightan Magic). When I want freeform magic, I play Mage, Ars Magica or Myranor.How does WoP not work?
4th level. Only the effect words impact the level of the spell. In this case, since there are two words of the same level, the spell level is 2 higher than level of the effect words.
Target words do not normally effect the level of the spell, but you cannot use a target word with a higher level than that of the spell you want to cast.Boost words do not normally effect the level of the spell, (I know it's weird) instead there is a limit to how many times a day you can use them. You also cannot use a boost word with a higher level than the spell you want to cast.
Also, yes, I would love to see more support for the Words of Magic. Just because they take five minutes of looking at to figure out, doesn't mean it's a bad system. I rather like the way it works. Also, my gaming group is rather narrow and only plays Pathfinder and GURPS. So if I want to play a more natural caster than the normal magic system used in Pathfinder, I want to be able to.
It's unnecessarily complex, clunky, and confusing. Case in point from above: "If I want to combine a third level target word with two second level effect words, what's the final level of the spell?"
How does WoP not work?
4th level. Only the effect words impact the level of the spell. In this case, since there are two words of the same level, the spell level is 2 higher than level of the effect words.
Target words do not normally effect the level of the spell, but you cannot use a target word with a higher level than that of the spell you want to cast.
Boost words do not normally effect the level of the spell, (I know it's weird) instead there is a limit to how many times a day you can use them. You also cannot use a boost word with a higher level than the spell you want to cast.
That looks pretty complex, clunky, and confusing, yes.
Just because they take five minutes of looking at to figure out, doesn't mean it's a bad system. I rather like the way it works.
I like the idea of the way it works a lot better than the way it actually works -- and it's the clunky and confusing bit, in my opinion, that detracts from how it works. One of the key points to a spontaneous magic system is that you should be able to work backwards from an effect to a spell. As an example from earlier, there's an arbitrary restriction that you can only use the Detection series of words as cones.
This, in my opinion, is unnecessary. I should be able to use Sense Magic to determine if a specific item (Selected target word) is magic or if a specific person is enspelled. Oddly enough, the wording of Sense Thoughts implicitly makes it a Selected target in its overall effect, but it still takes the "Cone" target word. Basically, the designers tried to recreate specific spells as specific words instead of the more traditional words-as-building-blocks and spells-as-sentences.
It's funny how people love answering questions not asked. The OP's question (name of this thread) is "Do you want to see more support for words of power?" not "Why do you hate words of power and why should everyone else hate them as well?"
I haven't tried them yet but they intrigue me. I would like to play a Wizard who uses them once to try the system out, but because it's alternate and not a core system (just like the armor as DR system & other systems in UC, etc.) I doubt we'll see any more support for it from Paizo in this iteration of PFRPG; 3PPs however are going to support anything now or later so that's who I would look to for that.
Do I want to see more support for it? In a word, no.
It's funny how people love answering questions not asked.
On forums, the best way to attract people who hate (topic X) to your thread is to title it "I love (topic X)." ;)
I don't want to see more support for it. It just strikes me as a system that, from both a GM and player point of view, is clunky enough to be a headache when trying to incorporate it into a game. Adding more support won't remove the clunkiness of it.
I'll admit that other systems I've used, such as psionics and incarnum, were clunky at first. However, those became less so once I read over the rules a couple of times. WoP didn't.
I never had a problem understanding the system. I would like to see more support on it. In its current form, I only use it as a supplement to any spontaneous caster I create (my DM likes the WoP system). The reason I use it as a supplement is because the current spell system has too many useful spells to simply give up. Using the experiemental wordcaster feat is a brilliant way to get any and ALL your blasting needs (and spells) in one nice, infinitely customizable arsenal.
The system is easy to understand.
1) You pick a target word and then an effect word. Each of these words have a 'level'. The highest of the levels between the two words determines its 'spell level' and the spell slot you use to prepare and/or cast it.
2) You can choose to use a Meta word (think metamagic). Boost has an effect depending on the target or effect word you choose to boost, listed in that word's description. Boosting the word may or may not increase the word's level and may, or may not, increases the overall spell level. Other meta words give a static increase to the over all spell level.
3) You can mix two or more effect words together in one spell. You are given a table to determine the overall spell level based on what combination of effect word levels you use.
Using the above, we pick target word (Personal, 0) and effect word (Force Shield, 1). The effect word has a level of 1, it is the highest, so our spell will be cast using a 1st level spell slot.
Let's get fancy and mix effect words. Target: Selected, 0. Effects: Fire Blast, 3. Burning Flash, 1. Shock Arc, 1. Our spell is going to be a minimum of 3, but since we are mixing effect words, our spell is going to be using a 5th level spell slot (3/1/1 = 5) according to the table. Assuming a caster level of 10, that spell hits (ranged touch) one target (no save) for 10d6+5d4 fire damage and 5d4 electric damage. Now, imagine what a crossblooded sorcerer can do with bloodlines that add +1 damage per dice rolled. Throw intensified spell for metamagic insanity. (A measely +1 to spell level, we use a 6th level slot to caster 10d6+10d4 fire and 10d4 elec, more if we have 15 caster level).
Alternately, we can choose to use three 2nd level words (2/2/2 =5). Selected, 0 + Decelerate (Boosted), 2 + Corrosive Bolt, 2 + Force Bolt, 2 = 5th level spell. Target is staggered for 10 rounds (will save negates, no additional save due to boost), takes 5d4 acid and 5d4 force damage, with another 5d4 acid next round.
We could even use Selected, 0 + Servitor IV, 4 + Accelerate (boosted), 2 to summon pre-hasted minions to do our biding.
With Words of Power, you can mix and match your spells together to fit the occassion. You have to craft the spells yourself and, once you have a good grasp on what the spells do, you can do so on the fly rather than spending time prepping. That, like all things, comes with system mastery.
^^^ Pretty much this xD
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I would absolutly LOVE to see more work on it. Possibly Erratting the original, to be less.. Clunky and more free formed.
In my opinion it should have been somthing like..
elemental Cantrip
Fire, Cold, Sonic, Lighting, all do 1d4 damage.
Acid does 1d3 and bypasses SR.
Damaging, Lesser - First level spell
using an elemental word, increase the die size by one. This spell does your caster level in dice up to 5dX.
Foggy Mists, Lesser - First level spell
Create a 10x10x10 cloud of fog.
If an element is added, the fog does the elemental's damage every round..
Something kinda like that more. Where you could combine Acid + Foggy Mists, to create a fog that constantly burns the enemies within for a few rounds. Essentially more piece mailing, less clunk
The system is easy to understand.
I don't believe ease of understanding is the issue people have with it. At least, it's not my issue; it's the classic runic magic system with words instead of runes. You just combine elements to get effects.
The problem is ease of use. In this particular case, they went pure runic on it, and the combination of words actually would thematically work better if they were runes of each word. But, that doesn't change the fact that going so basic on it means that it actually takes longer to implement it; a GM has to look up each effect, do the math on the combination, and see if they actually fit the game. And some combinations are not allowed, with some of these disallowances not making any sense. And with the combination possibilities, the idea of memorizing it is pretty much not going to work that well (especially on top of all of the other things a GM has to keep track of).
The sheer lack of ease of use is probably why the system doesn't catch on with a lot of GMs and why it didn't see any support after it was introduced.
I actually use it for the base of my runecaster style of magic in my homebrew world.
Sometimes I used it for dragon magic.
I like the idea. Never used it though. I even considered making it the default magic system for my setting, but I was already using so many variant rules I didn't think it would be a good idea to throw another system at my players. Maybe later I'll try integrating it.
Would I like to see more support for it? Sure.
Are there a lot of other things I want to see support for first? Hells yes. Different technology levels jump immediately to mind.
I like the idea, though I haven't used it. I would like to see more support for WoP. Perhaps a Player Companion dedicated to it, including lots of examples.
A lot of magic in fiction is presented as freeform. Within the fiction, however, there are lots of magical "rules" that constrain the choices the protagonists make. A lot of spells are used only once, or only in very specific circumstances. In a number of ways, the standard magic system better reflects that style of magic than a true freeform system. For a freeform system to really work, it needs its own "plot physics."
In a roleplaying game, truly freeform systems have a tendency to be unwieldly. Paradoxically, certain things become very predictable and repetitive, because they are easy. On the other hand, very unpredictable things can happen... the PCs often have access to a tool for every occasion. Challenges based on figuring out the right combination of effects or tactics don't really work, since as soon as the caster comes up with the right idea, the challenge has only one solution: cast the spell with those parameters. Further, in fiction, freeform spells nonetheless have quirks reflecting the plot physics of the story; it is difficult to build a mechanistic freeform system in which the resulting spells are quirky and specific rather than generic and optimized.
I actually find Words of Power to be more consistently scalable than the normal fixed spell system. There are less funky outliers for spells of a given spell level (expeditious retreat vs. longstrider, magic missile, true strike, etc.). It's definitely geared toward blasting and control effects, though, with fewer/limited options in other roles than the normal spell lists; casters lose some of their "power"/utility/versatility in exchange for being more flexible with their magic.
It's a nice system for campaigns that are closer to many fantasy worlds in non-D&D fiction, especially when combined with setting restrictions on race/class choices (instead of "kitchen sink" settings). An expansion to the effect words would be helpful to make the system more comprehensive, since there are several spells/magic item effects that just can't be put together using the list of effect words in Ultimate Magic.
Its a strictly inferior option unless you are exploiting it for extra spells as a spontaneous casters or using it to avoid material component costs.
This isn't quite true. The ability to combine wordspells makes it strongly superior in terms of the action economy; I can combine three effects into a single spell, which makes it better even than a Rod of Quickening. (And it stacks with the Rod as well.) If I do it right, I can also slide a Will-effecting word through as a rider on a Reflex save and affect a (high Will save) caster that I couldn't normally expect to affect.
A witch is a very powerful hexer if she has time to get her mojo off at one standard action per debuff before she throws her closer. A WoPer can get two debuffs and the closer off in the same action.
Same thing applies to buffs as well. When your summoned ice mephits appear with fire resistance already applied, that makes the fire-spewing creature you're fighting much more unhappy.
So I agree that WoP need a lot of love, but if they bring them up to the level of regular spells on an individual basis, they're likely to end up overpowered precisely because WoPs can be combined in ways that enhance their power. Which of course is the whole point of the system; WoP trades power for flexibility. The problem is that the tradeoff is too skewed.
IIRC you can only combine a bunch of low level effects into the same WOP anyway.
Doesn't matter. Three low-level spells are often more useful than one high-level one -- at the very least, the option is there, and more options is superior.
Cant remember if combining effects also lowers save DC compared to using one high level spell.
No, it doesn't. Not that it would be relevant to buff spells; people don't save against them. And because you can tune the effects to force a save against whatever you like, you can enhance the power again. Imagine the look on your rogue's face when he realizes this is a fireball that you need to make a Will save against, so Evasion doesn't apply....
I personally love WoP. I'm playing a wordcaster sorcerer in my current game and having a great time.
I will note that I use Hero Lab, which significantly streamlines the spell crafting process to remove the chunkiness others complain of.
Didn't expect the system to be such a base breaker, thought people would appreciate the devs temtative non vancian system more...
When it comes to non-vancian systems, WoP is probably the worst way to go on attempting it. Non-vancian systems tend to work better when treated in the way 3.5 psionics, Call of Cthulhu, or Shadowrun handles it; in all cases, spells exist, but the caster can determine where to put their power and how much of it to put there.
WoP, as a system, realistically lends itself far more to a Vancian system than any other spellcasting method, in part because even in a lot of fantasy people dealing with runic magic tend to memorize combinations of runes instead of memorizing each individual rune and then combining them on the fly (it's easier this way, as you already know what the power is going to do). Individual runes do have power in those fantasy stories, but typically on par with cantrips. In fact, that's probably the origin of the Vancian system, since the fluff for how spells are recorded suggests they may use an advanced personalized runic system.
Cases of non-vancian at-will magic where the caster determines the effects tend to be better represented by taking the 3.5 psionics system and altering the powers system, all the while keeping power points to represent the individual power of the caster.
So, I really cannot appreciate it as a non-vancian system because it doesn't lend itself to such a setup.
Didn't expect the system to be such a base breaker, thought people would appreciate the devs temtative non vancian system more...
Well, that's part of the issue. It's not like non-Vanican systems of magic are new. Ars Magica is twenty-five years old and was far from the first. Many if not most of the complaints that people have with the dev's implementations are issues that have been well-understood (and largely solved) for decades.
The idea that each individual spell has its own effect word, for example, is rather silly. Why are there five separate electricity words? That's both needlessly complex (because you need to track five different words) and needlessly limiting (because you're limited to exactly five effects, and if there's a sixth effect that I want, I can't do it).
So I "appreciate" the effort in a "Hey, Paul, look, Ringo wrote a song! Let's put it on the refrigerator!" way. But I'm not especially impressed by the quality of the product.
Ars Magica to date was only RPG to successfully pull such off, and that is largely because AM magic at it's most powerful does not try to scale the heights of power that D20 magic reaches at it's peak. (at it's height, the game doesn't have magic to the level of Greater Teleport, nor even a true Raise Dead) A noun/verb system breaks down rather severely when the magic goes past a certain plateau.
I think I disagree. I don't think ArM breaks down any more badly at higher levels than D&D -- although game balance breaks down badly (martials are useless at the equivalent of about level 2). What balances ArM is the fact that the system is complex enough that no one can be good at everything, combined with a quadratic cost for improvement.
A wizard who could cast Greater Teleport in Ars Magica would be a teleportation specialist, and that's about it. No divination, no crowd control, no blasting, no buffing. It ends up being a good game in part because the BatWizard problem goes away; no one can be that omnicompetent.
Mage: the Ascension (which of course was designed by the ArM designers) managed to get a system that largely worked that allowed for extremely powerful spells in the hands of specialists. This shared a lot of traits with ArM -- mages totally overpowered mundanes, but were balanced against each other by differential mastery, and even the most powerful wizard could be challenged by something outside of her baliwick.
Of course, that in turn detracts from a lot of what arcane casters want -- the feeling of having a spell for every instance.