What you also leave out is that both systems don't have what D20 always had. If you cast a spell in D20/Pathfinder and nothing stops you from doing so, it will always go off. Magic in both ArM and Mage, especially the latter always involved rolling against difficulties that were not always known. and utiilising much more limited resources to pull it off. Casting...
Shrug -- easily fixed, in both directions. In Ars Magica, there were various ways to make casting a non-stressed die, which means it was a straight 1-10 with no possibility of a botch. Even a failure could be avoided as long as it was a low enough spell that you could make the target number with only a +1 on the die.
Conversely, the primal magic system of Pathfinder is an officially sanctioned variant rule that adds the sort of uncertainty you describe. If you think that's a key aspect of WoP-based magic, it's easy enough to house rule that all WoP magic automatically involves the primal magic rules as well.
Of course, this also makes WoP even more suboptimal than before, because that house rule is a substantial nerf to that particular system.
I'd love to see more support for the Word system. I'd also love to see the options for Multi-word non-evocation spells open up a little bit.
I've always been a big fan of Flexible casting systems. Creative plays can come up with some really interesting stuff. Not necessarily over powered but just neat.
Like a Light Orb Mine field. A dozen floating orbs of light that move 5' randomly each turn. If they end up in the same space as an enemy, or an enemy moves through their space the explode with blinding light. No damage just a big bright flash. Was one of my Light Mage's favorite tricks using the True Sorcery system.
That's just adding more epicycles to your Ptolemaic system. I don't think that there is anything that can be done with Paizo's Word of Power system that won't leave it a headache for adjudication. I would say that the best approach is that instead of trying to build a spontaneous system to fit with D20's present Vancian system, you're better off simply scrapping the whole mess and rebuilding the magic system from the start to ONLY have a noun/verb or sphere system which involves rolling on a difficulty level and that you have set standards of difficulty for the types of magic you want to acheive, difficulty X for souring milk, difficulty Y for setting something on fire, etc. with added riders for say how much dice of damage you want to...What you also leave out is that both systems don't have what D20 always had. If you cast a spell in D20/Pathfinder and nothing stops you from doing so, it will always go off. Magic in both ArM and Mage, especially the latter always involved rolling against difficulties that were not always known. and utiilising much more limited resources to pull it off. Casting...
Shrug -- easily fixed, in both directions. In Ars Magica, there were various ways to make casting a non-stressed die, which means it was a straight 1-10 with no possibility of a botch. Even a failure could be avoided as long as it was a low enough spell that you could make the target number with only a +1 on the die.
Conversely, the primal magic system of Pathfinder is an officially sanctioned variant rule that adds the sort of uncertainty you describe. If you think that's a key aspect of WoP-based magic, it's easy enough to house rule that all WoP magic automatically involves the primal magic rules as well.
Of course, this also makes WoP even more suboptimal than before, because that house rule is a substantial nerf to that particular system.
You could also utilize a noun/verb system where the amount of words you can add is equal to the level of the spell plus one, then give them power points have it that the power of the spell scales by how many power points are invested in it, with the power point max being the character's level. If you are worried this would overpower it, give each effect a limited power range and add in a word that can be used to enhance that and added multiple times to the same wordspell.
Then it's both balanced against the Vancian magic system and utterly flexible and unique. The increasing complexity of the spells used and increasing power of them would also reflect the increasing magical aptitude of the caster.
That's just adding more epicycles to your Ptolemaic system. I don't think that there is anything that can be done with Paizo's Word of Power system that won't leave it a headache for adjudication. I would say that the best approach is that instead of trying to build a spontaneous system to fit with D20's present Vancian system, you're better off simply scrapping the whole mess and rebuilding the magic system from the start to ONLY have a noun/verb or sphere system which involves rolling on a difficulty level and that you have set standards of difficulty for the types of magic you want to acheive, difficulty X for souring milk, difficulty Y for setting something on fire, etc.
We may have to agree to disagree here. To start with, I don't think that the "roll for difficulty" is either a necessary or even desirable part of a non-vancian magic system. The key issue for me is that the current system is badly designed and overcomplex.
I think a much better word of power system would simply be a basic noun/verb system (instead of effect/target), so the spell to do lightning damage would be very similar with (and automatically balanced against) the spell to do cold or fire damage, if you knew the appropriate words.
Each word has an associated level with it, so "do 1d6/level damage" would be a Sor/Wiz 3, Clr 4 spell (reflecting the existing anti-cleric bias in blasting spells). The level of a spell is the maximum level of the words that comprise it, and it takes up slots equal to the number of words in the spell -2, so you can cast a double-verb spell with two separate nouns, but it takes twice as many slots to cast.
If you then want to use some sort of a roll-to-cast system, you can borrow Primal Magic if you want, but most D&D/Pathfinder players wouldn't like. Similarly, if you think that it's too easy to stack words together, you could say that an N-word spell takes N-1 slots to cast (so the two-verb, two-noun spell takes 3 slots, not 2), or you could apply a level penalty (an N-word spell adds N-2 levels). There's lots of room for adjustment in this system and the publisher would want to playtest it extensively.
(As a personal note, I would also add some sort of prerequisite system, so you couldn't just swoop in and grab the level 5 word without having the related levels 1 and 3 word; one thing I like about ArM and dislike about WoP -- or about D&D, for that matter -- is that I may be able to set a galleon on fire, but not to light a candle. But this again is something that can be worked out in the playtesting.)
I (and my group that is limited to WoP for a limited magic game) are really looking forward to what Kobold manages to pull of with the Deep Magic book and Incantations and Words of Power chapter.
This is a lower level, low magic setting, so the system works really well.
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That's just adding more epicycles to your Ptolemaic system.
I just wanted people to be aware that this sentence, whatever it means, was used non-ironically in a discussion.
That's just adding more epicycles to your Ptolemaic system.I just wanted people to be aware that this sentence, whatever it means, was used non-ironically in a discussion.
And understood by its intended recipient. Doesn't sound like LazarX's problem....
That's just adding more epicycles to your Ptolemaic system.I just wanted people to be aware that this sentence, whatever it means, was used non-ironically in a discussion.
I just used that sentence in arguing with a friend, he was like, WTF you just said. Loved that.
WoP seems like something that a 3rd party publisher is more suited to expand on.
Personally I love WoP. But I think there could be some improvements
1) The need for meta words to 'boost' spells is basically a feat tax for all WoP casters.
2) A 3.5 psionic point system seems to fit WoP better than a spell slot system.
3) WoP needs a dedicated WoP caster
Since this is so niche and many people seem to hate the idea or fear that paizo will focus less on traditional casting, it seems like 3rd a party publisher could come in and make decent money off the idea. Maybe even write an adventure path or two based on the idea of WoP casting.
Marthkus, meta words can be learned just like effect words, without a feat tax.
Marthkus, meta words can be learned just like effect words, without a feat tax.
Uses per day is limited though. That's what you need the feat for.
As the title says, do you want the devs to expand and improve on the system? Maybe featuring it in APs and future supplements? What do you think?
I'd love to see more support for words of power. I'm running a Wordcaster Sorcerer in WotR right now. He has been fun, but the limited options bother me.