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The current monk was inspired by two events: first was the brutal violation of Crane Wing which made my 8th level PFS monk tank retire (that feat is what made me decide that it was worth making the build because it was cool and useful if I had that to back it up).
Second was the thread. 'Built for speed'.
The concept was originally a thought experiment on how to make the fastest possible character (I believe the guy got to 200 base land speed with a fetching ). Then he looked at how to make the speed useful. The idea of speed as a combat relevant stat appealed to me since my previous monk was made with the idea of being pure support...melee. No spells or magic but a support build...
Naturally, this is where I began learning about Panther style, snake style and how and if they could be abused since with lots of movement per round, you need to find ways to maximize defense and your offense to compensate for receiving more attacks and having fewer attacks (no full attack action).
Unfortunately, monks are mad and a PFS built unarmed speed freak had problems with ac and damage once I started trying to get a higher str. So I ended up with this:
LN Brawler, moms, qinggong, and possibly hungry ghost.
14 wis, 22 str, 16 dex (wants 18).
Wears light armor, uses a shield or buckler.
Brawling enchantment on armor.
Dragon style and dragon ferocity, improved and greater overrun, vicious stomp, charge through and elemental fist with either Marid or djinni style (can't decide if deafened or entangled is better because once you think about it, deafened has a lot of useful applications for your group).
He wears all the gear I can find that boosts his overrun and rolls twice and takes the highest result on each attempt and has a 1/day 2d8+16 automatic trample or something along those lines.
Later he planned on going with mantis style and punishing kick or Janni rush for about 6-9d6 unarmed damage on a charge before elemental fists or static modifiers.
His static damage is pretty high starting at 16 if he's on his second attack (the first does more) and he is not buffed or anything such as from being enlarged, etc. ( being enlarged is expected in the build though).
He can charge through difficult terrain and allies as well as two enemies per round. If things go right, he knocks the first target down and gets two aoo's against them. (These having the benefit of the target being prone) he can then use stun and or elemental fist and/or punishing kick as needed to fatigue, freeze in place/deafen and also knock the target back 5 feet ( presumably before they actually strike the ground which just sounds freaking awesome). Keep in mind the elemental fist will deal 2d6+ 4 additional damage and if they do fail the stunning fist they are also shaken now. Meanwhile the target is also prone so they must get back up (once they are done being stunned and have also broken out of the ice) and then they probably provoke an aoo depending on where I kicked them to.
After this, I proceed through this poor individual and onto the intended target, probably a caster. They generally will suffer a similar fate. Since I can only kick, stun and fist once per round each, I generally will save stuns or freeze/deafens for the softer save targets and the kicks for the brutes to force them to have more distance to move to reach me...or to knock them into other allies who will wait for the target to stand. :)
With Janni rush I can use the second charge to actually just charge (I don't have to overrun) and deal double my unarmed strike dice in damage with a negligible acrobatics check. So if my target is squishy I can just lay in with e fist and 2x unarmed dice and the entangle/deafen should be enough to change the outcome unless it is a divine caster. In that case I overrun her, too and get the bonus to hit on the two aoo's and leave her prone and scarred to spend her turn breaking the entanglement and then standing up, provoking another aoo (which is why I need 2 more dex or some way to get another aoo per round). Either way, if she were successful, that would be her entire turn....
The build is new for me, still being edited and I always learning more...like I just bought the new blood of the moon or whatever and saw wolf style and the wolf savage feats.....
Almost like paizo was apologizing for what they did to my last monk and this is their reconciliation. Hell. Yes. Reconciled (as soon as I can fit it in the build).
Ps: this character takes only 4 levels of brawler. Everything else is monk. He's no dipper.
Also, the shield is purely for ac. His wisdom is 14 and dex is 16 with no cash to enhance it. That is never enough ac to dodge anything even some of the time. :D
A little late in replying, but I'm back.
"...You didn't want to play robocop and cut off all your limbs to make your monk work ..."
He does have a prosthetic right arm and left leg, but there's no requirement for him to do so. He works just fine without them, but it's good flavor/mechanics boost. Nothing a more expensive AoMF couldn't do, and nothing I couldn't do without (the right arm especially if almost purely for flavor, as someone is already going to have a tough time disarming me). And I've already addressed the fact that if you don't like the flavor, a good DM would probably let you change it around.
"Correct, that puts your monk/barbarian ahead of my pure fighter in terms of strength score"
He's got two levels of barbarian; just a two level dip. I'd call a fighter that dips two levels in monk still a fighter, and not a fighter monk. But I dunno, I'm a dipper, if the fluff allows for it.
"BTW, how do you get around the monk's lawful and the barbarian's non-lawful alignment restrictions?"
From the build: "TRAITS
- Enlightened Warrior: Can be a monk and NG or N..."
"Also....12 attacks?"
Yup, 12. While spelled out in the build I posted, it may not have been as clear in explaining itself; it was originally just a document I made for myself, and I know what I mean, heh. 7 from flurry, 1 from ki (which I will have a lot of unless I'm fighting a ton of creatures immune to critical hits, which is the biggest Achilles heel in the build), 1 from Wild Attacking, 1 from Speed. If I'm fighting someone important, that last attack with Speed will be used in conjunction with Stunning Fist (which I can do 22 times a day), or the domain power, Gentle Rest, using the Conductive enhancement (which, while I have 10 uses of Gentle Rest a day, Conductive requires 2 uses each time). Not only is a bad guy not as bad when he's stunned or staggered, but it allows me to kick another two times, due to Medusa's wrath. I was thinking about taking Domain Strike, then possibly retraining it out further into the build, but...I dunno.
Just noted, there is a ton of numbers that aren't as they are supposed to be in that build. He went through many changes (he started out 12 levels of barbarian, 7 levels monk, 1 level cleric, heh. A lot of variations of this guy exist in my head), and I didn't fully update all the data. Such as, originally, he could only do Stunning Fist 20 times a day, and that number was left in the build posted. Apologies again.
"You did read too much snark in it, believe me. I'm discussing mechanics is all."
I'm glad, and I do apologize for the misplaced snark in my replies.
"I can see the benefits of your build, but I can also see the problems with it - for one thing, it's not a build that works well off the bat..."
I'm not sure that I would agree with that. He's nice at higher levels, but look at the feats and level progression. He's potent, in comparison with a fighter, at level 1. At level 7, he's already got 4 attacks when full attacking (not using his few ki points much), 18 Strength before raging (and he already has the capacity to regain rounds of rage through crits) and before any gear comes into play (and he'd have gear then, Strength is important to him). 1 more level further, and now he regains ki through crits, so he'll be more liberal with the extra ki attack, which allows him to swing five attacks in a round.
"for another you are dipping other classes and making use of archetypes in order to make this work at high levels."
They do all fit together nicely, and were hand-selected, but that's elementary when making a build. It's no sin to pick Lore Warden for certain builds, when you wouldn't use that in others. But in the end, none of the other classes are necessary. They improve the build, and add flavor, but the entire flow of this Hungry Ghost Monk has so many variations, as I've said, and all of them are pretty decent.
"Lastly...it's a classic example of 'To be a good monk, you have to not be a monk' with five levels of non-monk mixed in."
Addressed again for completions' sake, 3 of the levels slightly improves on what I already have, and can be done without. The two levels of fighter? Utterly unneccesary for the build. They allow me to be able to have scent ability (I enjoy being able to find the folk I'm trying to cut up, and it furthers my role as spotter/tracker. Granted, that's not a major theme in this guy, but he has great perception, prepares Deadeye Lore starting at level 3, etc...) and Extra Rage, for a bit more security. Because, while I can regain rounds of rage, I only have 11 rounds of rage without this feat. Rage isn't necessary for anything, but it does add +2 to hit and damage, which is nice, and lets me heal 30 hp every time I crit or drop a creature, instead of 15, which is a great boon (and remember, a pure 20 levels of this monk would heal 20 hp anyway, so it's only a 10 hp difference).
"Lastly, please remember, we are comparing a tricked-out build with a vanilla build, and you are pulling out every stop you can just to keep up. Doesn't that tell you something?"
Tricked-out? Pulling out every stop I can? Because everything has synergy? We could compared a vanilla Lore Warden verses a vanilla Hungry Ghost Monk, but would it be unfair for the Lore Warden to utilize Combat Maneuver feats, or would that be tricking him out?
"There is one problem with this surmise...almost all monk weapons suck."
Agreed. They are average, at best. What (is supposed to) makes them good is putting them in the hands of a monk. Sure, the temple sword is nothing but a simple longsword, basically, but any monk can use it to attack at least twice in a full attack, where a fighter would have to use feats, lesser weapons, and more money to enhance weaponry to get the same effect. And while any monk only adds x1 Strength bonus to damage when flurrying, he can still wield it two handed, and get a -1+3 attack to damage ratio with Power Attack. Which is also very sweet compared to the damage output of a two-handed fighter.
"You can make every other class work without dipping after all...if you have to dip to make the monk as effective as another class, it is to me more evidence that the monk is too weak as is."
Alright, so a quick build off the top of my head that's pure Hungry Ghost Monk using a temple sword.
He can, when needed, flurry 9 attacks, 11 with Medusa's Wrath and Stunning Fist. We'll say he still has high strength, leaves the Crane Wing feats behind (in exchange for the Dimensional Agility tree), and two-hands his blade. That's 1d8+10(for strength)+18(for power attack) before any weapon enhancements. He threatens a crit 1 out of every 5 swings, and if he confirms, he regains ki, heals 20 hit points, can reroll disease saving throws and stuff. Is Qinggong Swaps allowed? If so, he can use Barkskin on himself a lot. Any fighter in a decent party will have buffers for him, but this guy's self-sufficiency uses a lot less resources, and doesn't require a magic item later on.
But this single-classed monk can Dimensional Dervish almost any time he needs to, which is a tremendous mobility ability.
"I mean, that Robocop Katana Monk posted previously is a great build and highly optimized, but it's only ever going to keep up with a Fighter, let a lone a hyper-optimized fighter."
Keep up with a nominally-optimized fighter? You don't see how, in many ways, he far surpasses one? The damage output, if hindered in some instances, is made up for by a lump of incredible other abilities.
Wow :| I just posted a ton. I'm pretty sure the music has been getting louder for a long time, and I've just not noticed. Sorry, I'm a rambler :p
remember folks, the AoMF isnt *required* anymore since the clockwork prosthesis is out--it costs regular to enchant, and can go up to +10 like any other weapon. main issue is that it's 6k, meaning that you'll have to wait for quite a few levels to get one.
if youre stuck using an AoMF because you DM is a terrible person, for higher levels the monk's robe isnt terribly useful anymore--it's effects cap at effective monk level 20, you can wear a bodywrap of mighty strikes (yes, yes, heresy i know) to add more effects (like, say, holy and courageous) to 4 attacks, generally the first four since they're more likely to hit.
keep the AoMF at a flat +5 enhancement, and use the bodywraps for auxiliary effects.
Unless
1) You didn't want to play robocop and cut off all your limbs to make your monk workOR
2) You know that in a month or two they're going to make it so that prosthetics don't count for unarmed strikes because if they were going to nerf Brass Knuckles into oblivion why not do the same to fake arms?
refluffing is a thing, naturally--though for #2 i would be Most Displeased with paizo's continued apparent hatred of those overpowered, overpowered monks.
as for robocop i was more thinking something like this.
also, you dont need to cut off all your limbs--it's just one arm! is that so much to ask for a functional unarmed fighter monk (asks paizo)?
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remember folks, the AoMF isnt *required* anymore since the clockwork prosthesis is out--it costs regular to enchant, and can go up to +10 like any other weapon. main issue is that it's 6k, meaning that you'll have to wait for quite a few levels to get one.
if youre stuck using an AoMF because you DM is a terrible person, for higher levels the monk's robe isnt terribly useful anymore--it's effects cap at effective monk level 20, you can wear a bodywrap of mighty strikes (yes, yes, heresy i know) to add more effects (like, say, holy and courageous) to 4 attacks, generally the first four since they're more likely to hit.
keep the AoMF at a flat +5 enhancement, and use the bodywraps for auxiliary effects.
Unless
1) You didn't want to play robocop and cut off all your limbs to make your monk workOR
2) You know that in a month or two they're going to make it so that prosthetics don't count for unarmed strikes because if they were going to nerf Brass Knuckles into oblivion why not do the same to fake arms?
refluffing is a thing, naturally--though for #2 i would be Most Displeased with paizo's continued apparent hatred of those overpowered, overpowered monks.
as for robocop i was more thinking something like this.
also, you dont need to cut off all your limbs--it's just one arm! is that so much to ask for a functional unarmed fighter monk (asks paizo)?
I was thinking of this, but it's still not really appropriate for a traditional monk.
I disagree with the RP stakes comment dabbler, monks are very versatile in that department.
If your RP concept involves being a hero, being able to fight, well you could have problems. You can make a monk that can be many things...but if one of those things is "as effective as a warrior in a fight" then your other RP flexibility drops like a stone.
A little late in replying, but I'm back.
"...You didn't want to play robocop and cut off all your limbs to make your monk work ..."
He does have a prosthetic right arm and left leg, but there's no requirement for him to do so. He works just fine without them, but it's good flavor/mechanics boost. Nothing a more expensive AoMF couldn't do, and nothing I couldn't do without (the right arm especially if almost purely for flavor, as someone is already going to have a tough time disarming me). And I've already addressed the fact that if you don't like the flavor, a good DM would probably let you change it around.
Depending on DM fiat to make your character idea work is not ideal, is it? It's basically using house-rules to fix the monk.
"Correct, that puts your monk/barbarian ahead of my pure fighter in terms of strength score"
He's got two levels of barbarian; just a two level dip. I'd call a fighter that dips two levels in monk still a fighter, and not a fighter monk. But I dunno, I'm a dipper, if the fluff allows for it.
Nothing wrong with dipping to make your concept, but a lot wrong with HAVING to dip to make your character work AT ALL. If you are raging every fight, well, you're pretty much thematically a barbarian as much you are a monk.
"BTW, how do you get around the monk's lawful and the barbarian's non-lawful alignment restrictions?"
From the build: "TRAITS
- Enlightened Warrior: Can be a monk and NG or N..."
Check. Not one I encountered before.
"Also....12 attacks?"
Yup, 12. While spelled out in the build I posted, it may not have been as clear in explaining itself; it was originally just a document I made for myself, and I know what I mean, heh. 7 from flurry, 1 from ki (which I will have a lot of unless I'm fighting a ton of creatures immune to critical hits, which is the biggest Achilles heel in the build), 1 from Wild Attacking, 1 from Speed. If I'm fighting someone important, that last attack with Speed will be used in conjunction with Stunning Fist (which I can do 22 times a day), or the domain power, Gentle Rest, using the Conductive enhancement (which, while I have 10 uses of Gentle Rest a day, Conductive requires 2 uses each time). Not only is a bad guy not as bad when he's stunned or staggered, but it allows me to kick another two times, due to Medusa's wrath. I was thinking about taking Domain Strike, then possibly retraining it out...
OK, so 10 attacks then. Sorry, but I took a monk through 8th to 13th level with a grand total of one successful stunning fist attack in the entire period, and it wasn't a badly optimised monk either. Those extra two attacks are not to be relied upon; even the best build for stunning fist I've seen on these boards had only around a 30% chance of pulling it off against CR-equivelant enemy on any given attempt, so at most that's 10.6 attacks a round.
"You did read too much snark in it, believe me. I'm discussing mechanics is all."
I'm glad, and I do apologize for the misplaced snark in my replies.
Forgotten already.
"I can see the benefits of your build, but I can also see the problems with it - for one thing, it's not a build that works well off the bat..."
I'm not sure that I would agree with that. He's nice at higher levels, but look at the feats and level progression. He's potent, in comparison with a fighter, at level 1. At level 7, he's already got 4 attacks when full attacking (not using his few ki points much), 18 Strength before raging (and he already has the capacity to regain rounds of rage through crits) and before any gear comes into play (and he'd have gear then, Strength is important to him). 1 more level further, and now he regains ki through crits, so he'll be more liberal with the extra ki attack, which allows him to swing five attacks in a round.
I didn't really say what I meant...at 1st level is he your concept (a monk with a sword) or is he a barbarian with a sword? What makes him the former and not the latter?
"Lastly, please remember, we are comparing a tricked-out build with a vanilla build, and you are pulling out every stop you can just to keep up. Doesn't that tell you something?"
Tricked-out? Pulling out every stop I can? Because everything has synergy? We could compared a vanilla Lore Warden verses a vanilla Hungry Ghost Monk, but would it be unfair for the Lore Warden to utilize Combat Maneuver feats, or would that be tricking him out?
Yes. Because the core monk doesn't HAVE synergy, and the qingong isn't much better. That's the problem, you have to go outside the class to get it. That's mechanically weak design there and then.
Also, remember that one of the design parameters set by Paizo when they made Pathfinder was that every class should be able to function well as a pure class, that dipping should only open up options, not power. That's why these examples make me sad...because yes, you have built a great "monk" but at the price of giving up being a monk.
Alright, so a quick build off the top of my head that's pure Hungry Ghost Monk using a temple sword.
He can, when needed, flurry 9 attacks, 11 with Medusa's Wrath and Stunning Fist. We'll say he still has high strength, leaves the Crane Wing feats behind (in exchange for the Dimensional Agility tree), and two-hands his blade. That's 1d8+10(for strength)+18(for power attack) before any weapon enhancements. He threatens a crit 1 out of every 5 swings, and if he confirms, he regains ki, heals 20 hit points, can reroll disease saving throws and stuff. Is Qinggong Swaps allowed? If so, he can use Barkskin on himself a lot. Any fighter in a decent party will have buffers for him, but this guy's self-sufficiency uses a lot less resources, and doesn't require a magic item later on.
But this single-classed monk can Dimensional Dervish almost any time he needs to, which is a tremendous mobility ability.
By all means use Qingong. It's a dangerous build...assuming he hits. Which will be rare, because his accuracy will be down for MAD, flurry or 3/4BAB, and lack of any bonus. You've given up using unarmed strike to equalise enhancement with a 2nd rate weapon, which will help, but any time you run into a serious AC he's going to have a problem.
My experience of games in actual play is that the BBEG is always high AC, and those are the dramatic fights that count. This guy will chew through mooks, sure, but EVERYONE can chew through mooks - that's why they are mooks.
Yeah I'll second the notion on Stunning Fist. It's a great ability in theory. In practice, not so much. I've had slightly higher success than Dabbler in that through 6 levels of play (will hit 7 after next session most likely), I have successfully stunned 3 times, though I was almost 5th level before the first one successfully landed.
There are just too many barriers to Stunning Fist for it to work reliably. a) You have to declare the attempt before the roll (so a missed roll obviously wastes the Stunning Fist attempt, b) You can only attempt it once per round (so you can't just chain them together in the hopes of eventually getting a failed save c) a lot of creatures cannot be stunned period, and d) the save DC isn't usually all that high. Sure there are ways to boost it (Mantis Style and ability focus being the main ones) but even then it comes at a cost. If you are not a MoMS, you will be sacrificing damage (in the case of a Dragon Styler) or attacks (in the case of Crane/Snake/Panther) by using Mantis. Plus investing a second feat can be expensive considering the monk tends to be feat starved as is.
As for my monk, he has an 18 Wisdom which is pretty high for 6th level (imho) particularly considering I do not have access to Guided property, but still most attempts when I even hit are still successful saves (that's a DC 17 Fort save). As for my three successful attempts so far, one was against a roughly average opponent, one was against a total mook (who I killed outright later in the full attack that started the combat) and one, admittedly, was against the BBEG which greatly helped us in the fight because he dropped his shield as a result.
As I said, its nice when it works, but getting it to work is the problem. Considering I've really only had one highly successful attempt in roughly 10 months of play, its certainly not something I want to hang my hat on. That said, there's no reason not to make the attempts if you have them.
The most powerful Monk is in 2nd edition......
The monk used to be weak at low levels but fearsome at high level before 3.X. In 3.X it become OK at low level and awful afterwards. Pathfinder made it a little better, but all the traps were still there: MAD, BAB, no easy enhancement for unarmed strike, and a host abilities that just do not work well together, when they are any use at all.
So it seems the only good monk is a zen archer apparently based on all these posts.
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No, but Zen Archer is by far the easiest Monk to make good.well.. a tetori is pretty simple..
True, but Tetori is hyper-specialized, and grappling is generally less powerful than archery. Grappling also requires rules mastery to know the grapple rules, and without adding Final Embrace to the build somehow, it is hurting for damage until level 15.
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Main reason why the Zen Archer is powerful is because Archery, in general, is a strong option in Pathfinder.
Not to mention that a Zen Archer is (virtually) guaranteed to Flurry every round.
Still waiting for the melee version of Clustered Shots. :)
you wont get it lol, melee attacks as a rule will always do more damage per hit than ranged.
Main reason why the Zen Archer is powerful is because Archery, in general, is a strong option in Pathfinder.
Not to mention that a Zen Archer is (virtually) guaranteed to Flurry every round.
Still waiting for the melee version of Clustered Shots. :)
hammer the gap is a nice alternative (though ranged folks can use it as well, hilariously enough)
I'm still running numbers here, but its looking like a Master of Many Styles (with a dip into unarmed fighter) can keep pace with a power attacking fighter quite well. Furious FOcus does give the fighter an advantage for one attack, but the Monk is capable of a more devastating Full attack and has significantly greater ability to charge and move.
I'm looking at trying to build a Weapon Master3/Master of many styles, but the early levels are proving difficult, as the lack of a bonus style feat at 1 like MoMS and Unarmed Fighter have slows progression.
Level 1 is terrible due to taking PA and WF(unarmed) without ImpUS, so the fighter is swinging at a +0 with a weapon for a level. It's not till 3 that the Character gets Tiger Pounce, but at Level 10, he takes WMaster3 and gets Weapon Training and Gloves of Dueling for a +3 to hit and damage, yet he doesn't get all 3 styles till Lv11. But that 11th level is pretty good
Fighter: WF unarmed
Lv1 PA
M1: Dragon
Lv3:Tiger
M 2: Tiger Pounce
Lv5: Tiger Claws
Lv7: Mantis Style
M 6: Mantis Wisdom
M 7: 3-style (Lv8)
Lv9: Elemental Fist
F 2: Dragon Ferocity
Lv10 = F 3: Gloves of Dueling (also wants monk robes)
Lv11: ability focus Stunning Fist
(M 8: 3 styles)
+14 to hit (gloves included) for 2d6+2str+9+2d6elemental and a +4 to the save for Stun
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I'm still running numbers here, but its looking like a Master of Many Styles (with a dip into unarmed fighter) can keep pace with a power attacking fighter quite well. Furious FOcus does give the fighter an advantage for one attack, but the Monk is capable of a more devastating Full attack and has significantly greater ability to charge and move.
I'm looking at trying to build a Weapon Master3/Master of many styles, but the early levels are proving difficult, as the lack of a bonus style feat at 1 like MoMS and Unarmed Fighter have slows progression.
Level 1 is terrible due to taking PA and WF(unarmed) without ImpUS, so the fighter is swinging at a +0 with a weapon for a level. It's not till 3 that the Character gets Tiger Pounce, but at Level 10, he takes WMaster3 and gets Weapon Training and Gloves of Dueling for a +3 to hit and damage, yet he doesn't get all 3 styles till Lv11. But that 11th level is pretty good
** spoiler omitted **
Hmm ... just for my comparison: Urban Barbarian 1 / Martial Artist Monk 10 with a +1 Furious Temple Sword can have the same bonus to hit (assuming he's taken Weapon Focus & Greater Weapon Focus) while two-handed Power Attacking. Possibly 2 higher if he can get Exploit Weakness to work.
Flurrying with Exploit Weakness: +17/+17/+12/+12/+7 for 1d8+STR+4 (or if he's taken Weapon Specialization, 1d8+STR+6).
Note: not counting any other magical gear nor the character's strength to attack rolls.
Assuming he has Power Attack: +14/+14/+9/+9/+4 for 1d8+STR+15.
Oh, and the Exploit Weakness ignore the target's DR.
For every 2 attacks I make, you make 1. So my two attacks deal 2d8+2xSTR+30 (average of 2xSTR+39) vs 2d6+2d6(elemental)+2xSTR+9 (average 2xSTR+23).
Damage is close for Full Attacks. Of course, if I can't flurry, I suck. I'd call both about even.
No, but Zen Archer is by far the easiest Monk to make good.well.. a tetori is pretty simple..
Archery is good because you almost always get to full-attack.
Tetori is good but he is a one-trick pony.
Well built Sohei are pretty good too.
The monk archetypes that allow extra ki like the drunken master and the hungry ghost monk generally do OK.
Sensei is also very good due to Inspire Competence, but it's a support build instead of a damage dealer.Indeed. A qinggong version can also let you share buffs like barksin or even restoration I think. Or you could dip ninja and share vanishing trick too.
Actually, Qinggong states that those buffs are self-only. Unless there's an errata that I missed.
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Actually, Qinggong states that those buffs are self-only. Unless there's an errata that I missed.Sensei is also very good due to Inspire Competence, but it's a support build instead of a damage dealer.Indeed. A qinggong version can also let you share buffs like barksin or even restoration I think. Or you could dip ninja and share vanishing trick too.
Sensei has abilities that allow you to use any self-only ki power on another person instead of himself at 6 or all allies at 12.
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Main reason why the Zen Archer is powerful is because Archery, in general, is a strong option in Pathfinder.
Not to mention that a Zen Archer is (virtually) guaranteed to Flurry every round.
Still waiting for the melee version of Clustered Shots. :)
but the only issue with that is the sohei is a much much better archer then a zen archer.
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but the only issue with that is the sohei is a much much better archer then a zen archer.
Not really. At top levels Sohei may be better, but Zen Archer will have much more consistent results from 1-20 and will have double the number of archery feats. Sohei will be able to put out more shots per round due to rapid shot/manyshot working with their flurry (Which it shouldn't imo, but raw is raw), but their accuracy will suffer for it.
Also, Zen Archer is able to use Ki to full attack foes that have total concealment or total cover, which no other archer can do.
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elemental monk (MoMS/drunken Master)
Stats
25pt buy, Lawbringer Aasimmar, swap SLA for +2str
Str:18 (+2)
Dex:14
Con:14 (+2)
Int:10
Wis:18 (+2)
Cha:7
feats
1-Marid Style (10ft reach), combat reflexes
2-Efreet Style
3-Dragon Style
5-Dragon Ferocity
6-Marid Spirit
7-Elemental fist (FINALLY! got the best part!)
9-Djinni Style
10-Efreet Stance
11-Efreet Touch
13-Marid Coldsnap
14-Djinni Spirit
15-Djinni Spin
17-
(ok, at this point you have several options, continue with the elemental shtick (which, tbh, I don't recommend, OR, go tiger style into pounce and nab power attack at 19, its late, doesn't matter much usually, just your pick)
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but the only issue with that is the sohei is a much much better archer then a zen archer.Not really. At top levels Sohei may be better, but Zen Archer will have much more consistent results from 1-20 and will have double the number of archery feats. Sohei will be able to put out more shots per round due to rapid shot/manyshot working with their flurry (Which it shouldn't imo, but raw is raw), but their accuracy will suffer for it.
Also, Zen Archer is able to use Ki to full attack foes that have total concealment or total cover, which no other archer can do.
actually across the board the sohei is better.
seeking is a close second for "Also, Zen Archer is able to use Ki to full attack foes that have total concealment or total cover, which no other archer can do."
the sohei has a better SAD stat, always acts first in surprise round, let alone always acts in surprise round, and will have first initiative for his full attack. every round will have a better to hit, flurry with a bow on top of rapid and many shot, and sohei will have a higher AC to boot.
the sohei is the best archer in the game.
Sensei has abilities that allow you to use any self-only ki power on another person instead of himself at 6 or all allies at 12.Actually, Qinggong states that those buffs are self-only. Unless there's an errata that I missed.Sensei is also very good due to Inspire Competence, but it's a support build instead of a damage dealer.Indeed. A qinggong version can also let you share buffs like barksin or even restoration I think. Or you could dip ninja and share vanishing trick too.
Ahh gotcha. Thanks for the correction. Hmmm, and now that I've seen that I think you may have corrected me before on this in another thread. lol Stupid multiple archetypes/rules/errata ;P
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elemental monk (MoMS/drunken Master)
feats
1-Marid Style (10ft reach), combat reflexes
2-Efreet Style
3-Dragon Style
5-Dragon Ferocity
6-Marid Spirit
7-Elemental fist (FINALLY! got the best part!)
While you are technically able to Take Marid and Efreeti styles without elemental fist on a MoMS monk, they are doing absolutely nothing until you actually get elemental fist. The bonus elemental damage, the reach of Marid Style, the fire damage on a miss, and so on, ONLY apply when you are using elemental fist attempts to do damage of the appropriate type.
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While you are technically able to Take Marid and Efreeti styles without elemental fist on a MoMS monk, they are doing absolutely nothing until you actually get elemental fist. The bonus elemental damage, the reach of Marid Style, the fire damage on a miss, and so on, ONLY apply when you are using elemental fist attempts to do damage of the appropriate type.elemental monk (MoMS/drunken Master)
feats
1-Marid Style (10ft reach), combat reflexes
2-Efreet Style
3-Dragon Style
5-Dragon Ferocity
6-Marid Spirit
7-Elemental fist (FINALLY! got the best part!)
well, ok. Just take a reach weapon, profit for plenty of time :P. at 7 it comes together very nicely. Indeed it does say while This you gain this AND this, To bad :/ still.
also, are you allowed to mix archetypes together if you will multiclass out BEFORE you get to an ability they would change?
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Actually, the MoMS monk has it in plain big letters that you can't take the style feats with elemental fist prereq until you take elemental fist.
You are not allowed to mix archetypes even if they only overlap at lvl20.
1. actually, it states he can't take ELEMENTAL FIST feat untill he meets prereqs.
2. Yea I figured, just figured I would ask lol.
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Actually you both have it wrong. There are two ways to read the moms elemental fist piece but the correct one is that if a style requires elemental fist, then they must have elemental fist before they take the style which uses it as a prerequisite.
So the build posted is inaccurate. Elemental fist is a requirement for the elemental style feats and you cannot take the elemental style feats ( even from the masters ability) without first having elemental fist (which you can take with his ability).
Ie- the only prerequisite that must be met in order to take a style feat is the elemental fist feat (and the introductory style feat if you choose to take am advanced feat further down the style chain).
Moms are expressly given permission to take elemental fist without meeting the prerequisites. That is stated in the first sentence under 'bonus feats'.
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Actually you both have it wrong. There are two ways to read the moms elemental fist piece but the correct one is that if a style requires elemental fist, then they must have elemental fist before they take the style which uses it as a prerequisite.
So the build posted is inaccurate. Elemental fist is a requirement for the elemental style feats and you cannot take the elemental style feats ( even from the masters ability) without first having elemental fist (which you can take with his ability).
Ie- the only prerequisite that must be met in order to take a style feat is the elemental fist feat (and the introductory style feat if you choose to take am advanced feat further down the style chain).
Moms are expressly given permission to take elemental fist without meeting the prerequisites. That is stated in the first sentence under 'bonus feats'.
Okay, This is badly written so both interpretations are valid.
At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat. Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style’s feat path.
This ability replaces a monk’s standard bonus feats.
Emphasis mine.
This can mean two things:
One, You DO need to to meet the prerequisites for Elemental Fist. You do not need to meet the prerequisites for any style feat. Therefore, a MoMS can take Elemental Styles without having Elemental Fist.
Two, You Do not need to meet the prerequisites of any style feat except elemental fist if that feat is listed as a prerequisite for the style. You can take Elemental Fist at one, but can't take any elemental styles until you have Elemental Fist.
Based on functionality of the class, it's clear that option two is correct. But the language is confusing and could be cleared up.
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still, its not overly week at level 1, and it only gets better from there.well in that case, take elemental fist at 1, then marid style?You can, but its still weak. Marid style will apply on three attacks per day when you take it at level 2.
There is also the fact that Fuse Styles doesn't really work with multiple elemental styles. Each style only works when your are using Elemental Fist to deal damage of the appropriate elemental type, so you are giving up the feature you took MoMS for in exchange for a few powerful hits per day.
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actually, the styles don't require you to use elmental fist to give there bonuses, this build gives you energy res vs fire/ice/lightning = to your BaB or monk level. Its not the most "powerful" but it is strong, and is imo, one of the really cool monk builds out there, as blasting elements from your fists just sounds epic.
A seriously big aid would be allowing monks to take any feat from dragon tiger ox that listed a ki pool as a prerequisite as a monk bonus feat.
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actually, the styles don't require you to use elmental fist to give there bonuses, this build gives you energy res vs fire/ice/lightning = to your BaB or monk level. Its not the most "powerful" but it is strong, and is imo, one of the really cool monk builds out there, as blasting elements from your fists just sounds epic.
Yes, it does give you the energy resistance when you in the stances. Everything else is only when you are using an elemental fist to deal damage of the appropriate type. If you want elemental resistance and to shoot a cone of fire, you are better off as a sorcerer imo.
I'm still running numbers here, But that 11th level is pretty good
** spoiler omitted **Hmm ... just for my comparison: Urban Barbarian 1 / Martial Artist Monk 10 with a +1 Furious Temple Sword can have the same bonus to hit (assuming he's taken Weapon Focus & Greater Weapon Focus) while two-handed Power Attacking. Possibly 2 higher if he can get Exploit Weakness to work.
** spoiler pasted **:
+11 from effective flurry BAB, -2 for flurry, +2 WF/GWF, +2 from Rage, +2 from Furious weapon enhancement = +15 (or +17 with Exploit Weakness).
Flurrying with Exploit Weakness: +17/+17/+12/+12/+7 for 1d8+STR+4 (or if he's taken Weapon Specialization, 1d8+STR+6).Note: not counting any other magical gear nor the character's strength to attack rolls.
Assuming he has Power Attack: +14/+14/+9/+9/+4 for 1d8+STR+15.
Oh, and the Exploit Weakness ignore the target's DR.
For every 2 attacks I make, you make 1. So my two attacks deal 2d8+2xSTR+30 (average of 2xSTR+39) vs 2d6+2d6(elemental)+2xSTR+9 (average 2xSTR+23).
Damage is close for Full Attacks. Of course, if I can't flurry, I suck. I'd call both about even....
The Weapon Master of Many stiles at 11th would likely be throwing Tiger Claws which deals double damage, unless he has a stunned foe that he's just charged.
So that's either one attack at +14 for 4d6+4str+18+2d6
so You throw 5 attacks each averaging Str+19
Versus ether 1 attack averaging 4str+36 (more if Drunken WMoMS)
Or Medusa Strike for attacks at +12/+12/+12/+7 for 1.5str+24 each +2d6 elemental
DWMoMS is more hit/miss due to not making many attacks, but the attack that hits is pretty nasty, even compared to a couple attacks from anyone else.
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what i find kinda funny is that the BEST Drunken Weapon Master of Many Styles is certainly the Lawbringer as he can get a +2 to Str, Wis, and Con.
An Archon blooded drunk that specialized in beating the boop out of people with funky animal styles, and Falcon Punch/Knee of Justice
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Nah. Sides the fun abilities of the styles are too cool. That aside. There isn't much other than +wis to damage and a debuff (reach for Marid) that they give you. You get +elemental fists and ENG res.
exactly. You spent six feats for elemental resistances. The moms is a class that is strong defensively but struggles with offense, and you just spent a third of your resources on more defense. It's a weak option.
Nah. Sides the fun abilities of the styles are too cool. That aside. There isn't much other than +wis to damage and a debuff (reach for Marid) that they give you. You get +elemental fists and ENG res.exactly. You spent six feats for elemental resistances. The moms is a class that is strong defensively but struggles with offense, and you just spent a third of your resources on more defense. It's a weak option.
You just summed up the monk class in general there as well. Great defensively, but poor offence. Rorek55, you missed the bit about actually hitting to deal that damage. 3/4 BAB and MAD and lack of any features to improve accuracy still make that hit a rare thing.
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You just summed up the monk class in general there as well. Great defensively, but poor offence. Rorek55, you missed the bit about actually hitting to deal that damage. 3/4 BAB and MAD and lack of any features to improve accuracy still make that hit a rare thing.Nah. Sides the fun abilities of the styles are too cool. That aside. There isn't much other than +wis to damage and a debuff (reach for Marid) that they give you. You get +elemental fists and ENG res.exactly. You spent six feats for elemental resistances. The moms is a class that is strong defensively but struggles with offense, and you just spent a third of your resources on more defense. It's a weak option.
well, early one its w/e as BAB doesn't effect to much, (about level 7 is where things start to split)
later on, most encounters don't have a super high AC, look at the pit fiend, CR 20 with AC of 32-40 I believe. That's pretty hittable. If its a balor or something with ridiculous AC, things can get aggravating, but eh.)