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Here is a mind exercise
level 12 (25 pt buy, my groups usual though we are beginning to roll for them) aasimar, Longbringer (archon blooded)
Str: 17 (20) (3 levels)
Dex: 14
Con: 14 (16) race
Int: 10
Wis: 16 (18) race
Cha: 7
Feats:
1.Power attack,Deflect arrows
2.weapon focus (unarmed)
3.Dragon Style
4.Dodge
5.Dragon Ferocity
6.Improved Disarm
7.Elemental Fist
9.Dragon Roar
10. Medusa's Wrath
11. Extra Ki
13. Dimensional agility
14. Snatch Arrows
15. Dimensional Assualt
17. Dimensional Dervish
18. Spring Attack
19. Dimensional Savant
thoughts?
Here is a mind exercise
You can drop power attack for toughness. Maybe get it later instead of extra ki.
IMHO Power attack is more or less useless for a monk, since it almost always will decrease your DPR.
A Monk can't take Power Attack at level 1 can they?
huh. I forgot that. Well then, I wouldn't really bother even grabbing power attack then. Just not very useful on the monk. Dodge at first level would help with AC problems
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I've only seen one tetori at my table, and it was a seriously one trick pony. If it couldn't grapple, it literally couldn't do anything.
** spoiler omitted **
So is it possible to build a tetori with decent defenses, the usual high grappling ability, while still dealing good damage?
Well, the tetori monk is not going to be dealing as much damage as a monk that can flurry. That much goes without saying. However, there is no size limit on grapple. A tiny creature, assuming it had a high enough CMB, could put a dragon in a head (eyelash?) lock. A lot of people will say that CMB does not scale well, but those people would be mistaken. My level 6 tetori already has a high enough CMB that it could probably grab CR 12s and curbstomp them like small children. In fact, the last time I played it, I was asked to sit out of a boss fight due to just how powerful the archetype is. The fight prior to the boss (honestly, the prior fight was against something far more powerful) went something like this: Oh no, an advanced huge owlbear has appeared! Monk wins initiative. Grapples owlbear. Owlear gets to full attack for one round (and misses twice). Monk pins owlbear, begins beating it senseless with the poor creature having no ability whatsoever to break grapple, let alone inflict damage.
Once you've got the target grappled (or pinned), you can begin dealing damage to them. A successful roll to sustain the grapple may also be used to inflict damage, pin them (if they aren't already), or move them around at half your speed without breaking the grapple. In any case, you do inflict full unarmed damage, strength modifier included, when dealing damage in this way. The tetori ultimately gains access to a wide variety of ways to prevent escape, up to and including being able to completely nullify dimension door, freedom of movement, and even the disadvantages of dealing with an incorporeal creature. Figure that last one out. "Guys, that dread wraith might lead to a TPK." ... Then you see a monk grab a ghost.
Now, if you are unable to grapple, you can still deal a fair amount of damage. You just won't be able to flurry. Most of the martial types will outclass you in this field, but that is just how it goes. Every class and archetype has one major weakness. If you compare the tetori's strengths versus its limited damage, it's really not that big of a weakness. Worst comes to worst, pick up vital strike. Attack once per round when not grappling, but you'll be able to inflict a pretty nice chunk of damage with it. It gets a lot more lawlworthy once you've got rapid grappler, do keep in mind. Move action to maintain grapple + inflict unarmed damage, swift action probably to do the same, then you've still got your standard action. Unarmed strike does not specify that you must use your hands for it. Moreover, tetori monks do not suffer the penalties normally associated with grappling an opponent. Ergo, headbutt them with vital strike, improved vital strike, etc if you really need damage.
Now then, to address your question of defenses! The amulet of mighty fists is not quite as important to tetori monks as it is to some of the others. It does not increase your grapple CMD per RAW, and indeed that was clearly also the intention behind the rules. You could replace that with an amulet of natural armor and save a ton of gold in the process. Fact is, you'll still get through the DR of most creatures you encounter even without it. Having something grappled/pinned takes a dump on its AC to begin with, by the way. Besides that, there is no attack roll associated with dealing damage while grappling. You'd only have to make an attack roll if you chose to use your standard to attack (honestly, about your only option if you're already pinning something), and even then it's more than likely going to hit. Okay, next item to suggest. You would want a ring of ki mastery. While this does not directly increase your AC, it does allow you to store two points of ki in it at any given time. You can use those to raise your AC. Honestly, that's about the only use a tetori monk has for its ki points till it gets break free or inescapable grasp. Even then, you probably won't have to use those two abilities all that often. Throw in a monk's robe and a ring of protection, and your AC is going to be pretty beastly. Conversely if you're looking for a more static AC increase, look at the ring of foe focus. It's another good option if you'd prefer not to have the ring of ki mastery. Utilize magical items to raise your dex and WIS to boost AC even further. You'd be surprised just how high a monk can run its armor class, and all without sacrificing much, or any in some cases, damage.
Edit: One last... minor detail. Make sure you do your move (courtesy of greater grapple) and swift (courtesy of rapid grappler) action grappling prior to designating the use of power attack. You will thus be able to benefit from power attack on the one attack you use for your standard, and on any AoOs you do in that round. Tetori can still take AoOs while grappling, after all. Your pinned opponent is suffering AC penalties, and besides that it's your one attack at its highest BAB. It's probably going to hit. End result? You can actually deal a moderately impressive amount of damage. Continue to repeat this pattern for as long as it takes. The pinned creature has almost no chance of casting spells, and barring some kind of otherworldly horror/dragon, probably no chance of getting out of the grapple.
25 point buy. Starting stats were a 13, 14, 15, 16, 9, 7, with a +2 from human on the 14, +1 from fourth level advancement and +2 to wish and con from two different gears, one of which I forgot to list. I could have easily had another one or two +2's on other stats in addition to what is shown but I wanted to save some cash and purchased other stuff, instead.
Cool, I was looking for the equipment and couldn't see it.
But if we are talking about making a more accurate, hard hitting monk I am positive that this can easily be done while still keeping all the 'I can't die' goodness of the monk.
I have seen this claim made many, many times. I have only seen it delivered on once in four years of monk-threads, with a monk that used some very obscure sources and was reliant on very specific equipment. I mean sure, you can make a monk that looks great...until you compare them to an actual combat class.
If you bump the damage high enough that you don't power attack, the monk is pretty accurate.
Compared to what? A fighter will have at least the same stat bonus, full BAB (for at least another +2 over the monk), feats and abilities to increase his accuracy (for another +5 over the monk), so we're looking at +7 in accuracy on top of anything the monk is able to bring to the table. Anything that challenges the fighter to hit it is then practically immune to the monk.
What is a good way to build an "Iconic" monk. IE, the supreme martial artist with fists of stone and fire :D (if possible)
Oh it's possible...Master of Many Styles 2 levels, then Unarmed Fighter the rest of the way. Maybe dip a few levels of Empyral Sorcerer for the buffs. You'll beat the stuffing out of any saffron clad little guy from the temple any day.
The best way to be a monk...is to not be a monk.
I'm not saying you cannot build a decent monk that can survive, I'm just saying be prepared to be in a case of anything you can do, someone else can do better.
My preferred build is dex and wis heavy, skip on strength. Take Agile Maneuvers and Weapon Finesse at 1st level, and Improved Grapple as your monk bonus feat. Grappling becomes your stock in trade until you get to 6th level and Improved Trip. Around that point you also get an agile amulet of mighty fists, which picks your damage up nicely. Dip a few levels of paladin if you have a positive charisma bonus and you can use Smite to get past DR when you run into it; if not a four levels of Weapon Master Fighter will give you a tidy boost to attack and damage. You won't be brilliant, but you'll do OK especially if you make the most of your mobility and pick your foes carefully - get among the enemy, tie enemies dangerous to others down, and do crazy stuff (some of it will work).
If you bump the damage high enough that you don't power attack, the monk is pretty accurate.Compared to what? A fighter will have at least the same stat bonus, full BAB (for at least another +2 over the monk), feats and abilities to increase his accuracy (for another +5 over the monk), so we're looking at +7 in accuracy on top of anything the monk is able to bring to the table. Anything that challenges the fighter to hit it is then practically immune to the monk.
at 20 both with plus+5 enhancement bonus and 30 strength
Fighter 20BAB+5enh+4wt+10str-6pa = +33
Monk 20FoB-2FoB+5enh+10str = +33
Personally I consider weapon focus a trap for the fighter but even adding that to both builds
Fighter: +35
Monk: +34
Throw in duelist gloves
Fighter:+37
Monk: +34
hmmmmmmm
Compare damage
Fighter 2d6+15str+5enh+4wt+18pa = ave of 49 or with WF and DG 55
Monk 2d10+15str+5enh+5arcanestrike = ave of 33
My mistake ave of 36 for the monk (Which for reference is equivalent to 10d6 damage per hit)
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at 20 both with plus+5 enhancement bonus and 30 strength
Fighter 20BAB+5enh+4wt+10str-6pa = +33
Monk 20FoB-2FoB+5enh+10str = +33Personally I consider weapon focus a trap for the fighter but even adding that to both builds
Fighter: +35
Monk: +34Throw in duelist gloves
Fighter:+37
Monk: +34hmmmmmmm
Compare damage
Fighter 2d6+15str+5enh+4wt+18pa = ave of 49 or with WF and DG 55
Monk 2d10+15str+5enh+5arcanestrike = ave of 33
Well, its been a while since I did DPR math last, but at a glance it seems the fighter will have higher DPR if only because of the 17-20/x3 critical from the capstone and Improved Critical/Keen. That or a 19-20/x4 if you were using earthbreaker stats.
Oh yeah. Fighter drp is WAY higher. But a lot of that comes from the fighter capstone.
But it's not like the monk is throwing love taps. And he gets improved crit too (only 19-20 for X2)
I've only seen one tetori at my table, and it was a seriously one trick pony. If it couldn't grapple, it literally couldn't do anything.
This led to some hilarious moments- my favorite of which was when he grappled some plant monsters that had attacked the party. I had a lot of fun describing in great detail how the monk brutally pinned and tied up a plant. To this day, there is a patch of shrubbery somewhere in the forest of Ustelav that is tightly bound in a ball of twine. It's seen to shiver nervously anytime a human comes within 10 feet.
So is it possible to build a tetori with decent defenses, the usual high grappling ability, while still dealing good damage?
If you were talking about my Dwarf Monk Lee, the one who tied up a plant. He is a Maneuver Master not a tetori. But he is a blast to play. Everytime I play him at lest one person says that they love him.
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I was told by my usual group that I'm not allowed to use my tetori monk anymore. :( Wish they'd liked him like your group likes your maneuver master, Azouth. xD But then, I can understand why they said that. That monk just takes a crap on almost everything a DM could throw at us.It's not that it takes a crap on almost everything a DM can throw it's that the standard things a DM will throw it craps on it's like throwing a min maxer into a low powered game it throws the balance off and can very easily get everyone else killed as a side product of competing with the specific player. After all remember any time the DM wants you to die well you could run into a Fiendish Ogre Tetori with triple your strength score who bends you into a pretzel unfortunately it also procedes to wipe the party afterwards.
That just falls back on it being a bad practice for a GM to attempt to punish someone for building an optimized character. 'Cause it will probably kill everyone else as well. I will say, however, that a tetori can crap on almost anything that hasn't been homebrewed.
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A level 20 fighter without gear or anything but class features or stats has 20 Bab +6 (weapon focus, greater weapon focus and weapon training). Assuming the fighter has weapon specialization and greater weapon spec, they hit often and hit hard.
26 to hit and +4 to damage and deals probably 2d6 DMG die with a two hander.
The monk has a base +18 to hit and deals 2d10 damage per hit. However, the monk comes with two 18's and two 13's and can spend ki to get another attack at +18.
So, the unequipped, naked bases look like this when optimizing for pure offense as vanilla characters of twentieth level:
Fighter- +26/+21/+16/+11 for 2d6+4
Monk- +18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 for 2d10
Both characters deal the same damage per hit at this point.
2d6+4=11
2d10=11
The fighter will likely hit with his first two attacks and possibly with his third.
The monk will likely hit a fair amount of the time with any of his first threw three attacks and only sometimes land the subsequent two.
The point to note here is that first, the monk isn't supposed to be single handedly manhandling the most dangerous high ac thing without any help at all. Like a rogue, tactical battlefield positioning matters (flanking, high ground). The monk has the movement speed (fast movement), supernatural powers (abundant step) and extraordinary abilities (high jump, ki pool) to do just that...get wherever they want/need to.
If you play a monk like a fighter, you won't perform as well as a fighter. Similarly, if you play a monk like a wizard, summoner, tracking ranger, etc, do not be surprised that they don't compete at doing what those classes are designed to do.
Monks should not be fighting like fighters...but that is always the comparison. Lame.
Second to keep in mind: the fighter has purchased four feats already. The monk has purchased nothing.
If the monk flanks, he should readily be able to keep up with the fighters accuracy against the vast majority of targets (that second attack from a fighter hits a lot....and now the monk has three of those). If our monk takes weapon focus, he is even better off.
I believe that, in the end, the monk will deal less damage as the fighters (who are built ONLY for combat) (the monk is built to do that and a lot more). But this is due to the fighter having 6 points of accuracy to manipulate into things like power attack and the like. However, does every twentieth level fighter have weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon spec and greater weapon spec? I have seen a lot of fighter builds not using any of these and those builds were considered quite good.
It is feasible then that many fighters can take their weapon training and save the four feats for something more useful. Doing so effectively increases the monks accuracy comparatively.
Whoops! I forgot that weapon spec adds to damage. So add +4 to the fighters damage allowing him tonequal the monk with a 1d8 weapon or exceed the damage per strike by 4 if using the biggest, baddest weapon they have(greatsword).
So, honestly, the real questions don't seem to be about which class hits hardest in a fight (damage is not always the most important thing) but feat access and use and whether or not power attack and such are absolutely necessary to defeat enemies.
The biggest difference that I see is that insofar as pure combat goes, when you don't want to do anything other than raw damage, no other possible consideration, tactic or approach, you generally pick a fighter since an optimized one will do plenty of it. However, if you want to do anything else besides just doing unnecessarily high amounts of damage in a single round of combat, the monk is an utterly acceptable and capable option.
They were never meant to do the same top end damage that paladins against evil, cavaliers challenging, rangers on favored enemies while in favored terrain, or fighters with weapon focus, socialization and the greater versions while power attacking were meant to do. What monks can do (and incredibly well) is just what I described above. They skirmish, wear down targets, control the battlefield by pinpoint targeting specific foes and tank well enough. Their damage won't usually be 'over nine thousand' but a boss will notice you for dealing 80 and dropping a stun in their face or for using combat manuevers on them that can ruin their day.
Again, if you play a monk but treat it like a fighter, you are not going to get the same results without going through many hoops too do so.
Oh yeah. Fighter drp is WAY higher. But a lot of that comes from the fighter capstone.
But it's not like the monk is throwing love taps. And he gets improved crit too (only 19-20 for X2)
The fighter's capstone adds a lot, but even without it the fighter will be a long way ahead on DPR - especially if he drops Power Attack against a higher AC. That gives him +43 compared to +34 to hit...and his base damage per hit is higher, and he has at least twice the threat range. In any event, the greatsword is not the best weapon to use by far. A Falchion drops the base damage by 2 by gives a threat on 15-20. Furious Focus lets him make the first attack with Power Attack at no penalty, a big advantage (and a great opener).
No, the monk isn't throwing love-taps, but compared to the fighter he's very inaccurate, and no hits = no damage. If they fight low AC targets, the monk may out-damage the fighter; against tougher foes the fighter does better, and if they run afoul of something with a 50AC or thereabouts, the monk is going to be struggling to land a blow.
It's accuracy that makes the big difference, and the monk doesn't have it.
also penetrating strike lets fighters deal with another thing monks hate: DR
Oh yeah. Fighter drp is WAY higher. But a lot of that comes from the fighter capstone.
But it's not like the monk is throwing love taps. And he gets improved crit too (only 19-20 for X2)
The fighter's capstone adds a lot, but even without it the fighter will be a long way ahead on DPR - especially if he drops Power Attack against a higher AC. That gives him +43 compared to +34 to hit...and his base damage per hit is higher, and he has at least twice the threat range. In any event, the greatsword is not the best weapon to use by far. A Falchion drops the base damage by 2 by gives a threat on 15-20. Furious Focus lets him make the first attack with Power Attack at no penalty, a big advantage (and a great opener).
No, the monk isn't throwing love-taps, but compared to the fighter he's very inaccurate, and no hits = no damage. If they fight low AC targets, the monk may out-damage the fighter; against tougher foes the fighter does better, and if they run afoul of something with a 50AC or thereabouts, the monk is going to be struggling to land a blow.
It's accuracy that makes the big difference, and the monk doesn't have it.
If the fighter can't power attack for fear of missing, your GM is doing something wrong.
Dark Immortal, something to keep in mind is that the Fighter can take the Weapon Focus/Spec line of feats as class feature bonus feats. The Monk can't. The Monk doesn't get those feats as bonus feats.
The fighter should be able to select up to 11 bonus combat feats he that he can add into his character builds 'as class features' similar to the Monk getting to use things like Flurry of Blows. Otherwise, you are denying the Fighter access to half of his class features
I mean, sure, in a full build a Monk could have those feats, but at the same time, there are lots of tricks and abilities fighters can use to push their attack and damage higher than the Monk. As a base starting point, for instance, a Monk is not likely to have ability scores as high as a Fighter does. A Fighter can sport a 36 Strength, a Monk is unlikely to do so as that eats up most of his point-buy. Meaning he has much lower dex/con/wis than he needs to survive.
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Something I keep seeing pop up in this thread is Dragon Style. When you talk about Dragon Style, keep in mind that Dragon Style really only functions if you are building a strength prime Monk. It also more-or-less, forces the Monk to be built against his description and portrayal in the real world. You stop being this quick, agile martial artist, and you turn yourself into Rock'em-Socke'em-Robots. You stand together at the middle of a ring, and slug each other until one or the other's head pops up.
One of the biggest issues people have with Monks is that they don't fit the role of martial arts style characters as portrayed in many, many film adaptations (not just Hollywood either). Many of the martial artists are small guys/girls, using their blinding speed and agility to tear down their opponents. They are flipping, jumping, running, tumbling all over the place, using locks, precise strikes to weak points, and their environment to their advantage.
This just isn't adapted over to D&D/Pathfinder very well. For instance, in the above, most of what the martial artist does in his fights is based off agility and speed, only actually striking an opponent is where strength comes into play. But even then, where you hit the opponent can be just as important as how hard you hit the opponent.
You could hit someone in the shoulder as hard as you can, and do very little damage. But hitting them in the right spot on the chest, could snap ribs, causing lung punctures. Hitting them in the spine could cause paralysis, or the neck could break it.
Again, this is more accuracy and precision, than raw brute strength.
It's also worth noting that in real martial arts, you are taught to remain loose, and limber. Keeping your muscles tense and rigid actually makes it harder to perform your art, and weakens your attacks. Being a hulking bruiser with a low dex would imply you are tense, and rigid, which is something you don't want to be in a fight.
My picture of monks is dragon ball characters. So strength monk isn't that hard for me to picture.
I personally like going with the Dragon / Efeerti / Janni styles for my monk. Sure my monk doesn't have the best defenses as all his styles make him good for is hit and run. Currently level monk 10 (Drunken Master / Master of Many Styles / Qinggong Monk). More of a Lightning Bruiser who lacks staying power.
(STR 18, WIS 18)
1(+1/2) STR (Dragon Style) + 1/2 STR (Dragon Ferocity) + +2d10 Unarmed Damage Dice (Janni Rush) + 3d6 Fire (Elemental Fist + Dragon Ferocity) + WIS Fire Damage (Efeerti Style) + 2d6 damage (Drunken Master) =
Leaping Drunken Fire Dragon Rush!
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If the fighter can't power attack for fear of missing, your GM is doing something wrong.
If the DM has to coddle the party, the players are doing something wrong. It is the DM's job to challenge the player characters, not pander to them.
Seriously, there are many targets the fighter can hit with Power Attack, but that he can do greater DPR to by not doing so. The reason is, iterative attacks: if you hit on a 65% chance with PA active, you pretty much auto-hit without it, on the first blow. Then you get a 70%, 45%, and 20% of a hit. That 230% of hits on average. With Power Attack, you get 65%, 40%, 15% and 5%. That's 125% of hits, or 155% if he has Furious Focus. So unless Power Attack doubles your damage output (and it almost certainly doesn't), you are better off not Power Attacking.
Now take that foe the fighter Power Attacking hit's 65% of the time, and apply your monk stats that are +3 behind the power attacking fighter, and he's hitting (with ki) 40%/40%/40%/15%/15%/5%/5%/5% for 165% hits. The fighter without flurry gets more hits on average than this monk out of half as many attacks, doing more damage per hit.
That's the difference a few +'s can have, and that's why the monk needs an accuracy boost to be effective in combat.
One of the biggest issues people have with Monks is that they don't fit the role of martial arts style characters as portrayed in many, many film adaptations (not just Hollywood either). Many of the martial artists are small guys/girls, using their blinding speed and agility to tear down their opponents. They are flipping, jumping, running, tumbling all over the place, using locks, precise strikes to weak points, and their environment to their advantage.
This just isn't adapted over to D&D/Pathfinder very well.
It hasn't adapted over at all, really. I don't have a problem with strength builds, I just think there should be quick/clever/wise alternatives that are not nerfed to hell and back.
My picture of monks is dragon ball characters. So strength monk isn't that hard for me to picture.
This explains so much.
I recommend you look up David Caradine's portrayal of a shaolin monk in the old series Kung Fu, it really is very true-to-life concerning the shaolin and the origins of the old AD&D monk. The "archetypical" monk is a little guy, using skill and speed and willpower ("inner strength") over physical strength and power.
My picture of monks is dragon ball characters. So strength monk isn't that hard for me to picture.
Really? You haven't watched very much of Dragon Ball Z. There are many cases where the characters are using their Chi to increase their speed, strength, and endurance. Hell, the whole Kaio-Ken attack Goku uses against the Saiyans is a perfect example.
Look at when Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan, he gets a huge influx of Chi energy to power his strength, speed, endurance and his energy attacks.
Or Trunks, for instance, against Cell when he ramps up his strength to unbelievable levels, but at the expense of his speed.
Gohan when he ascends to Super Saiyan 2.
Etc, etc, etc.
Dragon Ball Z is simply the Qinggong Monk on steroids, jacked up on Hulk-gamma rays with a little bit of PMS thrown in to top it all off.
I've only seen one tetori at my table...If you were talking about my Dwarf Monk Lee, the one who tied up a plant. He is a Maneuver Master not a tetori. But he is a blast to play. Everytime I play him at lest one person says that they love him.
Ah. Sorry for the assumption. I figured you went tetori without considering any alternatives for a grapple monk.
Also, he IS fun to play with. He's a one trick pony, but I never said that one trick wasn't good. ;) One trick pony scan devastate the right encounter, AND be memorable. Just ask Farkle, my color spray sorcerer/oracle of heavens.
My picture of monks is dragon ball characters. So strength monk isn't that hard for me to picture.Really? You haven't watched very much of Dragon Ball Z.
Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are two completely different things.
If the fighter can't power attack for fear of missing, your GM is doing something wrong.If the DM has to coddle the party, the players are doing something wrong. It is the DM's job to challenge the player characters, not pander to them.
You need to look at the AC for CR. If your GM is throwing +8 encounters at you or is adding 10 to the AC of your foes in some misguided attempt to "challenge the fighter" then yes the monk will have problems.
I personally like going with the Dragon / Efeerti / Janni styles for my monk. Sure my monk doesn't have the best defenses as all his styles make him good for is hit and run. Currently level monk 10 (Drunken Master / Master of Many Styles / Qinggong Monk). More of a Lightning Bruiser who lacks staying power.
(STR 18, WIS 18)
1(+1/2) STR (Dragon Style) + 1/2 STR (Dragon Ferocity) + +2d10 Unarmed Damage Dice (Janni Rush) + 3d6 Fire (Elemental Fist + Dragon Ferocity) + WIS Fire Damage (Efeerti Style) + 2d6 damage (Drunken Master) =
Leaping Drunken Fire Dragon Rush!
sounds like a RIDER KICK to me.
My picture of monks is dragon ball characters. So strength monk isn't that hard for me to picture.Really? You haven't watched very much of Dragon Ball Z.Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are two completely different things.
I agree, I just wasn't sure if you actually made the distinction between the two series. A lot of people use DB and DBZ interchangeably when talking about DBZ. My mistake.
However, even in Dragon Ball, I would have to say there the characters are more Unarmed Fighters or Brawlers than Monks. The problem, is that the several of the characters have some unique spell-like abilities, instead of Ki powers like a Monk.
The best method of making them, is probably the Psychic Warrior.
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Normally Maneuver Master would be awesome for this, Sensei too, but they are not eligible as you have to have Flurry of Blows. Lore Warden would help with +2 or +4 to maneuver checks. Martial Artist IS eligible, but they can't even use Awesome Blow against someone their size until 8th level, because no ki.
I think a great option would be a dip into Separatist cleric, and take the Growth Domain. You get Enlarge Person as a domain spell, and can enlarge as a swift action letting you calculate your unarmed strike damage as Huge, and Awesome Blow Medium creatures without using Ki.
You need to look at the AC for CR. If your GM is throwing +8 encounters at you or is adding 10 to the AC of your foes in some misguided attempt to "challenge the fighter" then yes the monk will have problems.If the fighter can't power attack for fear of missing, your GM is doing something wrong.If the DM has to coddle the party, the players are doing something wrong. It is the DM's job to challenge the player characters, not pander to them.
Unfortunately your argument falls apart on three fronts:
First, that the AC for CR are rules when they are not; they are guidelines. Monsters can have low attacks, and high AC; or few powers and powerful attacks etc. As long as the benefit in one area is matched by weakness in another, it's not an issue - or shouldn't be.
Second, that the party only face CR-equivelant threats, when they do not; tough fights involve up to CR+4 or even CR+5.
Third, that the AC given is final AC of the creature, when it may not be; circumstances may well adjust the effective AC, such as invisibility, buffs, and cover. Dragons, for example, have AC appropriate to their CR...and spells, allowing them to cast multiple buffs before eating the party, and dragons are not stupid.
Quick quibble: The monk does not get strx1.5 without the dragon feats, so give the fighter weapon specialization to even out the feat investment. Also, monks at this level will not be using arcane strike because the swift action interferes with their ki abilities (they have at least 24 ki points so should be getting an extra attack every round). While I absolutely love arcane strike, I don't think its good for monks.
With those, the damage is looking more like:
Fighter: 57 + crits
Monk: 28, but 3 attacks at highest bonus is very significant against enemies without DR/-.
Or another form of DR the monk cannot get through, like DR/good for example...also, those crits really matter, with the right weapon they add 30-40% to the fighter's damage output.
Also remember that the fighter has the option of turning off power attack in case of really tough AC enemies, while the monk cannot. Also, if the monk cannot full attack, which happens frequently, he takes a -5 to hit (I am a big fan of boosting the monk to full BAB for everything. They already get it for flurry and its not overpowered, so why not for the weaker, regular attack?)
This. And I agree, the monk at least should have flurry attack bonus available on single attacks with unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
Also remember that the fighter has the option of turning off power attack in case of really tough AC enemies, while the monk cannot. Also, if the monk cannot full attack, which happens frequently, he takes a -5 to hit (I am a big fan of boosting the monk to full BAB for everything. They already get it for flurry and its not overpowered, so why not for the weaker, regular attack?)This. And I agree, the monk at least should have flurry attack bonus available on single attacks with unarmed strikes and monk weapons.
Ugh, just occurred to me that the Warpriest will have 3/4 BAB, but when he uses his Divine Weapon, he has full BAB, so he will be at full BAB on all of his attacks with his weapon, not just on full attacks.
Warpriests of Irori are going to kick the snot out of Monks when it finally comes out.
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Also remember that the fighter has the option of turning off power attack in case of really tough AC enemies, while the monk cannot. Also, if the monk cannot full attack, which happens frequently, he takes a -5 to hit (I am a big fan of boosting the monk to full BAB for everything. They already get it for flurry and its not overpowered, so why not for the weaker, regular attack?)This. And I agree, the monk at least should have flurry attack bonus available on single attacks with unarmed strikes and monk weapons.Ugh, just occurred to me that the Warpriest will have 3/4 BAB, but when he uses his Divine Weapon, he has full BAB, so he will be at full BAB on all of his attacks with his weapon, not just on full attacks.
Warpriests of Irori are going to kick the snot out of Monks when it finally comes out.
yep. I've been saying this for awhile. Warpreists will at most have damage one step behind monks, but will have the option of self enchanting their unarmed strike with either sacred weapon bonuses, or casting greater magic weapon, righteous might, or divine favor as swift actions. And hey, they can take weapon focus in a real ranged weapon too.
Ki<<<<<<Spells
Also remember that the fighter has the option of turning off power attack in case of really tough AC enemies, while the monk cannot. Also, if the monk cannot full attack, which happens frequently, he takes a -5 to hit (I am a big fan of boosting the monk to full BAB for everything. They already get it for flurry and its not overpowered, so why not for the weaker, regular attack?)This. And I agree, the monk at least should have flurry attack bonus available on single attacks with unarmed strikes and monk weapons.Ugh, just occurred to me that the Warpriest will have 3/4 BAB, but when he uses his Divine Weapon, he has full BAB, so he will be at full BAB on all of his attacks with his weapon, not just on full attacks.
Warpriests of Irori are going to kick the snot out of Monks when it finally comes out.
yep. I've been saying this for awhile. Warpreists will at most have damage one step behind monks, but will have the option of self enchanting their unarmed strike with either sacred weapon bonuses, or casting greater magic weapon, righteous might, or divine favor as swift actions. And hey, they can take weapon focus in a real ranged weapon too.
Ki<<<<<<Spells
I've known for awhile, but it just seems every time I compare Monks to Warpriests, the Warpriest has another thing in their favor.
I also just found out of the Deadly Fist-Gifted Blade of the dreamscarred press, and I can say I was quite impressed. With just a 2 lvl dip in monk (say MoMS 2 / deadly fist- Gifted Blade 18) you have a psyonic version of the monk that is better at everything that a monk can do. Like back in 3.5 with psychic warrior / ardent. Has full BAB, can go wis-based right from lvl 2, when he fights defensively he adds double his wisdom to AC and has access to Expansion, Inertial Armor, Hustle and Physical Acceleration (Haste). Poor little monk...
Warpriest was indeed a kind of unexpected bump. I was expectin Brawler to overshadow monk, not the cleric / fighter hybrid. Anyway, I do not complain, it is the perfect monk replacement, save that you cannot go armorless as then you cannot take advantage of the sacred armor.
The Brawler still overshadows the Monk in many ways. Same skill points, same scaling unarmed damage dice, better flurry, slightly weaker AC bonus, better DR penetrations, full BAB, better hit die, awesome spontaneous feat mechanic... The monk was basically gutted of all of his combat abilities for the Brawler.
The most powerful monk you can play is a drunken master/sensei/monk of the 4 winds/qinggong it is just nutz
Or by other class' standards, it's OK. 3/4 BAB is a pain without flurry, though, I wouldn't expect to hit much.
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The most powerful monk you can play is a drunken master/sensei/monk of the 4 winds/qinggong it is just nutzOr by other class' standards, it's OK. 3/4 BAB is a pain without flurry, though, I wouldn't expect to hit much.
Sensei has Inspire Courage and is Wisdom based, making it less mad. It would hit just fine. Especially if you were burning through that unlimited drunken ki by casting scorching ray.
Sensei has Inspire Courage and is Wisdom based, making it less mad. It would hit just fine. Especially if you were burning through that unlimited drunken ki by casting scorching ray.The most powerful monk you can play is a drunken master/sensei/monk of the 4 winds/qinggong it is just nutzOr by other class' standards, it's OK. 3/4 BAB is a pain without flurry, though, I wouldn't expect to hit much.
True, I'd forgotten about that. You're still behind the other martials, but not by as much, and you can really burn through that drunken ki - you just need a handy haversack and a large keg...