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You can also have fun by combining Monk of the Sacred Mountain with spring attack and Panther Style.
The bonuses trigger if you end the round in the same space... so you can, in fact, move around.. you just need to end up back where you started.
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You can also have fun by combining Monk of the Sacred Mountain with spring attack and Panther Style.
The bonuses trigger if you end the round in the same space... so you can, in fact, move around.. you just need to end up back where you started.
Spring Attack would not provoke the AoO from the target so how would Panther apply? Unless you move into non-target threaten squares?
Spring Attack would not provoke the AoO from the target so how would Panther apply? Unless you move into non-target threaten squares?You can also have fun by combining Monk of the Sacred Mountain with spring attack and Panther Style.
The bonuses trigger if you end the round in the same space... so you can, in fact, move around.. you just need to end up back where you started.
I think you just answered your own question.
Most powerful Monk?
buh-buh- barbarian!
** spoiler omitted **
The new ACG Brawler class is the most powerful Monk.
I like the Brawler Fighter archetype a LOT more than the Brawler Class from the ACG. You can mix it with Master Of Many Styles and create a beast.
Considering they plundered the Monk of all of his combat features, it wouldn't surprise me if they also do the same to all of his archetypes.
I don't consider base weapon damage contributing. In that sense the monk is at least a functional class that works as advertised unlike the rogue.
I will gladly concede the monk is stronger than the rogue in combat. However, the rogue is not primarily a combat class and the monk is. The rogue is a skills-monkey and has other ways of contributing, although he can contribute in combat if he gets in a flanking position. The monk does not have as good a means of contributing out of combat, but is not as effective at actual combat as the other combat classes.
The rogue fulfils his role (not primarily combat), the monk doesn't do his role (combat) very well, if at all.
The class is versatile. Most powerful monk is really relative. Most people default to the monks that attempt to do vanilla things like just hit hard and hit often and avoid getting hit reasonably well and making saves reasonably often. The benchmark most people measure by is how much like a raw DPs class can you make a monk. I hate this scale of measurement. Most optimized DPs builds wouldn't be able to touch my monk and would eventually (very slowly) die to it.
It's the "very slowly" that is the problem. You see, if the enemy can't touch you, but can touch your allies, and you can't do much damage to that enemy, why shouldn't it go kill your allies instead? That's the tactical problem with a defence-oriented character - your defence only helps you.
On the other hand, an offence-oriented character can afford to be more vulnerable because he will not be exposed to a threat for as long - and nor will his friends.
What I've come to realise is that DPR always matters to combat classes. If all else fails, if you have significant DPS you can do something in a fight, almost guaranteed. Other abilities are too situational to be relied upon.
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Tldr at bottom.
Dabbler, I think my monk flies in the face of your argument (he had a red bull). He is not a great damage dealer (he does 1d8+3 per hit and by next level it will be 1d10+1d6+7-still low for 8th level optimizers). He has a 30 ac most of the time. Enemies almost always miss. I can increase this by 4 if necessary capping it at 34 ac. With crane style and wing it makes me more or less unhittable. 80+ HP, and drunken brawler feat for 7 temp HP each time I drink combined with the high ac means magic is usually the only way I take damage and the temp HP sort of heals that. Never mind that it takes forever for me to potentially die. So we have established that killing me as a big, mean and nasty monster isn't a very probable outcome. And that the only useful magic against me is ref save based (and only once I have started drimking since it penalizes my ref save).
Now the nasty monster goes for my allies. The caster is buffed from his typical 17 ac to 21 via shield or mage armor. However, he is still hitable by enemies, just nowhere near as often. The monster attacks, I bodyguard making the casters ac become 25. I do this repeatedly, each round to people with an already high ac (22-25ish) to the lower ac characters making everyone nearly unhittable. But you finally do get damage through to a teammate or two. But now, I redirect the damage from one and take the hit myself....with my temp HP and high normal hp and ability to negate an attack on hand. Further, you aren't killing the healer with me around, so now she channels and everyone is full again.
BTW, you also provoked an aoo from my ally for making me redirect that attack. Never mind that stunning fist and fatiguing foes and stunning them helps make things die faster to other martials, or stops those things from being threats for a turn.
So now you can't kill anybody until you kill me...but you can't kill me. Many monsters capable of performing combat manuevers often switch tactics and attempt those against me. However, my cmd is higher than my ac (by a lot) and I am flat out immune to certain aspects of some of the more common maneuvers. Yes, it takes teamwork for me to shine, but people in my groups generally find that we don't need to burn through healing spells or waste resources when they can stand next to me and be safe (though that is not always possible or the best choice). But me, personally, I am not the damage dealer. I just make sure everyone else can do whatever needs to be done.
Other non-damaging monk builds can do the same in their own way. My monk is only level 7. Yes, he has weaknesses. But he is exceedingly good at what he does and is versatile out of combat, and in the overwhelming majority of fights is beyond useful in combat. Just think, ~20 sessions of society play in a variety of scenarios, with tons of different characters and environments. And effective through all but a few. Monks (or anyone) do not need to do DPs at all to be very good at winning fights and being effective combatants.
I think the reality is that it requires some system mastery to make a monk perform well and valuable. And yes, a few changes could be made to make the class better.
At this point, since I qualify, I am looking at nabbing stalwart defender just because the abilities are cool and for flavor. From optimization though, I would stick with brawler and make all enemies suffer a penalty to hit just for being near me and taking standstill and such (this is all after society play). This would make the situation nightmarish and fun! Are you saying my defense oriented monk is bad, sir? •squints at you•
PS: tldr the enemy cannot touch me and because I make it so they cannot touch my allies, the enemy is still stuck dealing with me. The speed at which the enemy dies is relative to how good at DPs the rest of the group is. When I am the only DPs, it is a slow death......a very painful and very long, too many rounds death. :P
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Make sure to take Qinggong for the SLA needed for arcane strike and you are good.
Doesn't Arcane Strike consume your swift action each round? It's great that it doesn't burn Ki, but it sucks that it's in direct conflict (in terms of action economy) with other Ki powers, specifically the extra attack which is arguably more beneficial than Arcane Strike in terms of damage (I have not done the math, but I presume that there is probably a break point when Arcane Strike does add more DPR than an extra attack would).
Has anyone done the math or have any experience with this? I ask because it intrigues me... My Zen Archer is currently 3rd level, and I have an opportunity to select my first Qinggong ability next level... I was planning on taking Bark Skin, but to be honest I haven't gotten hit that much and could probably delay (or forget about) taking it...
Best monk is a champion of irori. Because smite evil all day long at level 7.
...not counting the prereq levels
@Dark Immortal I would be interested in seeing your build, it sounds like a fun character.
Human Qinggong Monk || 17 14 14 10 14 8 || Acrobatics,Climb,Perception,Sense Motive,Stealth
1. |Toughness, Combat Reflexes
Deflect Arrows, stunning fist
2. |
Improved Grapple
3. |Dragon Style
4. |
Barkskin(Self only, 1 ki point)
5. |Dragon Ferocity
High Jump, Purity of Body
6. |
Improved Trip
7. |Arcane Strike
Gaseous Form(Self only, 1 ki point)
8. |
9. |Dragon Roar
10.|
Spring Attack
11.|Elemental Fist(3d6)
Diamond Body
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Shadow walk(3 ki points)
13.|Weapon focus
Diamond Soul
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Improved Critical
15.|Lightning Reflexes
Elemental Fist 4d6
Ki leech
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17.|Iron Will
Abundant Step(2 ki points), Tongue of the sun and moon
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Snatch Arrows
19.|Great Fortitude
Empty Body
20.|
Elemental Fist 5d6
Perfect Self
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Best monk is a champion of irori. Because smite evil all day long at level 7....not counting the prereq levels
No, IIRC, with the pre-req levels it was around 14 smite evils per day at lvl 7. (Pre-Reqs being 1 cleric/3mnk/1 paladin/ 2 CoI for the "infinite" smite evil).
prototype00
** spoiler omitted **
Elemental Fist only scales in damage if you are playing a Monk of the Four Winds. If you play any other Monk, it stays at 1d6.
Just like if you are playing a Monk of the Four Winds (or any other Monk that replaces Stunning Fist) and you take Stunning Fist, you don't get the alternative choices a Monk does. The additions to Elemental Fist and Stunning Fist are special class features of the vanilla Monk and the Monk of the Four Winds archetype.
For what it's worth, here's my Master of many styles/Ki Mystic/Monk of the Sacred Mountain build.
First couple of levels were rough due to real hitting problem, but he's nearly untouchable, having so many options to deflect/raise his AC, counter attack...
25 point buy (that helps a lot in creating a good monk)
Here's what he looks like at level 6
Gear is up to what your GM will let you have. I always skip this part in builds. It's so campaign/GM will dependant that a build that relies on gear is, to me, a dysfunctional build.
Abilities:
Str 17 (+1 at level 4), Dex 16, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +4
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +8
Traits: only one from the actual campaign, +1 to unarmed opportunity attacks.
Relevant Skills: Acrobatics: +10, Climb +7, Knowledge History/Religion: +5 (+6 if 1 Ki pt left in the pool), Perception +11, Sense Motive +14, Stealth +8, Swim +7
Speed: 50ft
His feats are:
Human: Dodge
Lvl 1: Crane style
Monk lvl 1: Stunning fist, unarmed strike
MOMS lvl 1: Crane Wing
MOMS lvl2: Crane Riposte
MOTSM lvl 2: Toughness
Lvl 3: Dragon Style
Lvl 5: Snake Style
MOMS 6: Snake Fang
AC 20, touch 18, flat-footed 16 (+0 armor, +0 deflection, +3 Dex, +3 Wis +2 natural (1 form magic item, 1 from MOTSM), +1 Monk, +1 Dodge, +2 Shield when you don't move for a round, +4 dodge if Crane Style is active, +4 dodge when using a ki point as a swift action)
His max CA is 30 when everything is activated (Fighting defensively, Crane style with 3+ ranks in Acrobatics, not moving for a round, ki point as a swift action)
Alternatively, you can gamble and go for the snake style, granting an AC from 15 to 34 (44 if you rule a natural 20 give a +10) on a roll. But you should only do so on a touch attack at this level. But the main point of this style is to get free counter attack against missing opponents, and that's why next Feat should be Combat Reflexes.
Once your "natural" AC gets less useful, grab feats like Skill focus: Sense Motive or alertness to seriously boost the AC granted by snake style.
The Dragon style feat is here to boost your offense, so when your hits connect they make sure opponents don't dismiss you for being that untouchable, non-threatening jerk. Plus it lets you close in really easilly, even through difficult ground. The faster you're in the melee, the sooner you'll be the party tank. This also mean you actually have to make a choice each round since you can have 2 styles active and not 3. Well, untill level 8 that is. So he uses Crane+Dragon style when facing humanoïd opponents with weapons, and Snake+dragon when facing beasts and monster with natural attacks.
Be your wizard/sorcerer's best friend so he will enlarge you each fight. Aside from the damage boost, it will help you keeping those ennemies focused on you. And you'll be able to control a bigger area.
The Ki mystic levels are here to boost your ki pool and ensure you always have something to do with your swift actions. Plus, a tank that grants his friends a reroll on a failed will save will get him lots of party love.
The Sacred mountain levels are optional. This means you lose Evasion, but you get a boost to your AC, Toughness for free, a small DR and the ability to not fall prone or be forcibly moved, which is awesome for a tank. To me, it's well worth the swap.
** spoiler omitted **Elemental Fist only scales in damage if you are playing a Monk of the Four Winds. If you play any other Monk, it stays at 1d6.
Just like if you are playing a Monk of the Four Winds (or any other Monk that replaces Stunning Fist) and you take Stunning Fist, you don't get the alternative choices a Monk does. The additions to Elemental Fist and Stunning Fist are special class features of the vanilla Monk and the Monk of the Four Winds archetype.
The Dragon Roar feat not only allows you to qualify for elemental fist but also scales the damage as if you were a Monk of the Four Winds.
I believe in a one on one battle or a boss fight, Zen Archer will be the strongest. You run fast like monk, but you have long range. Good saves makes you not afraid of spells while melee can't reach you if you are a good player with decent positioning. Rogue might get you, but you have good wisdom so you can spot them easy while you can always grapple them when they come up close. Zen Archers are one of the best archer because they can always hit and run effectively other class will have to take a full round action to run once in awhile. Their weakness would be stuck in a small room filled with ankle bitters or something that deflect arrows.
I don't understand how the monktopus qualifies for Shaping Focus. It requires Wildshape, but when he takes it he only has a couple of Druid levels.
** spoiler omitted **Elemental Fist only scales in damage if you are playing a Monk of the Four Winds. If you play any other Monk, it stays at 1d6.
Just like if you are playing a Monk of the Four Winds (or any other Monk that replaces Stunning Fist) and you take Stunning Fist, you don't get the alternative choices a Monk does. The additions to Elemental Fist and Stunning Fist are special class features of the vanilla Monk and the Monk of the Four Winds archetype.
Dragon Ferocity (Combat)
You attack with the strength of a dragon, your telling blows striking fear into your enemies.Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style, Stunning Fist, Acrobatics 5 ranks.
Benefit: While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus. When you score a critical hit or a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent while using this style, that opponent is also shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + your Strength bonus.
Special: Taking this feat allows you to qualify for the Elemental Fist feat even if you do not meet that feat’s prerequisites. If you do not meet that feat’s prerequisites, you must choose one of the damage types that feat offers, and you can use only that damage type with your Elemental Fist attacks until you meet the feat’s normal prerequisites. A monk with this feat can use Elemental Fist as if he were a monk of the four winds.
Dabbler, I think my monk flies in the face of your argument (he had a red bull).
That's a pretty good build, I take my hat off to you. I take he's a drunken/flowing monk combo of some description, as the flowing monk is the one able to redirect attacks and actually help others of all the monk archetypes.
Unfortunately he runs into the problem many monks that are great against CR-appropriate foes run into: the BBEG.
My party at 6th level just ran into a BBEG with 136hp, 19AC, and three attacks at +19 (1d8+11) plus grab (CMB +23, CDM 35). It was a CR9 encounter at the end of an adventure, tough but not unbeatable.
Against this enemy in straight duking-it-out, your monk will last a while, but he'll lose in the long-run (he will accrue some damage on it, just nothing like enough) unless he burns all his ki on defence, and I'm guessing he doesn't have unlimited ki. Trying to defend his friends, AC25 is no defence, they die before the creature does even if only one hit a round connects.
Against this kind of foe you need to do damage, and a lot of it. Boosting AC helps, but not as much because attacks scale up faster than AC does, so against more powerful attackers your defences are worth proportionally less.
Against my player's party this thing took attacks from rogue (flanking), magus (spell-strike shocking grasp through a whip), sorcerer (fireball), and barbarian to take it down. At the end of the fight the barbarian was at -1 hp, the rogue on half hp.
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@Dabbler: I don't see the point of your post? Dark Immortal never claimed that his Monk build could Solo a boss encounter? It sounds like none of the Characters in your party could have solo'd this guy either... If you are saying a Monk couldn't have contributed to this encounter I have to respectfully disagree; Dark Immortal's build could contribute to taking this BBEG down and so could my Zen Archer.
In fact, with such a low AC, my ZAM would pin cushion this particular BBEG... If I had a way to keep this BBEG at bay for just a few rounds (like say a raging Barbarian getting in his face) the fight would be over.
I don't understand how the monktopus qualifies for Shaping Focus. It requires Wildshape, but when he takes it he only has a couple of Druid levels.
It has exactly 4 levels of druid, which gives it wildshape. The presentation for feats only shows levels at which it gains feats.
The Ki mystic levels are here to boost your ki pool and ensure you always have something to do with your swift actions. Plus, a tank that grants his friends a reroll on a failed will save will get him lots of party love.
I think with snake style you have quite enough competing for your swift action.
Remember that any time you take an immediate action you lose your swift action next round. It is kinda the nice thing about crane style... it doesn't use any actions. Snake style, unfortunately does. Now it is only for the AC substitution, which is not that big of a deal, but it is a bit of a conflict.
Pfff if you think core monk is weak, then liberally apply dragon style, Qinggong, and arcane strike. You may even out damage most fighters, if not you will be at least close. AND if you feel like doing lower rogue DPR you can power attack to have roughly the same to-hit and damage.
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If you apply Dragon Style and Qinggong, then it's no longer core monk, no?
Of course not, but the point of the post (I think) is that Qinggong is the only archetype required to *fix* the core monk, with the new style feats that are available.
Heck, even in a core only game a core monk can be built in such a manner that he/she can contribute to a party.
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Lvl 15 qingong monk/drunken monk/master of many styles.
Panther style, panther claw, panther parry, snake style, snake fang, dragon style dragon ferocity, djinn style (+2ac vs AoO), djinn spin, elemental fist. Right there from those you have tons of attacks. Djinn gives deafen to enemies that fail the save and AFAIK elemental fist can be used on any attack AoO or otherwise. You do 1 1/2 str per hit and basicly ignore difficult terrain. You can combined this with several other "off builds" such as Dodge,mobility,spring attack, and vital strike tree. This isn't even counting the nice things from drunken master and qingong
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Pfff if you think core monk is weak, then liberally apply dragon style, Qinggong, and arcane strike. You may even out damage most fighters, if not you will be at least close. AND if you feel like doing lower rogue DPR you can power attack to have roughly the same to-hit and damage.
Couple of problems with this statement.
1)All of those solutions are traits that a fighter could obtain as well as a monk, other than Qinggong of course. They can get dragon style fairly easily since they are swimming in feats, there are traits that give SLAs and thus can give fighters arcane strike.
2)Dragon Style only makes unarmed strikes fundamentally the same as 2 handing a morningstar, other than the fact that you are always armed and eventually have a higher damage die.
3)Even if those were monk-exclusive options, the monk is only gaining bonuses to damage, not to attack rolls. And the +5 from arcane strike is still less than the +7 a fighter will have from gloves of dueling+weapon training, and the fighter gets a +7 to hit. +9 to hit and 11 damage if the fighter takes some fightery feats.
Just sayin'.
Yep... accuracy is really the big issue. Monk damage is largely fine... the problem is that damage is dependent upon actually connecting with the target...
So, fighters and barbarians and rangers end up with some sort of accuracy boost, while the monk really never does.
So a fighter pops on some monks robes, and he is dealing 1d8 damage. By level 20, the monk is up to 2d10... woo-hoo and all, but th real difference is an average of 4.5 versus an average of 11. So 6.5 damage, and the fighter is getting +7 from weapon training/gloves and +4 from weapon spec feats, and +2 from brawling armor that the monk can't really wear.... so the fighter is up by +6.5.... +8.5 if he took the brawler archtype.
The bigger issue, however, is that with +7 from weapon training, +2 from drawling armor and +1 from greater weapon focus... the fighter is going to have +10 to hit that a monk won't get.
Of course monk can't be as good as fighter, barbarian and rangers in terms of hitting. Hitting is all fighter, barbarian and ranger does, they train to fight. Monk train to make their body closer to perfection. Which is good at hitting someone with weak defence, mostly wizard or monster that can't block/dodge attacks very well. You use the speed of monk to get close to them really quick and grapple, if they got out, just punch them to dead.
Yeah we're looking at the difference between killing a Balor in 2 or 3 rounds.
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Make sure to take Qinggong for the SLA needed for arcane strike and you are good.
Okay, so I have done some math... Not all of it, but some of it...
Simply put; is it better to use your swift action to add static damage to ALL attacks in your base attack routine, or make one additional attack at full BAB?In the scenario I created, I found that at 6th level Arcane Strike (@ +2) increased the DPR by about 19% when calculated against the AC of a CR 8 creature (APL+2).
Using a Ki point to make an additional attack at full BAB increased the DPR by about 39%.
So at 6th level anyhow, it’s better to use your swift action to make an extra attack than Arcane Strike. However, because Arcane Strike doesn’t use Ki points, it is still a very good investment (in my opinion).
To give this some frame of reference I also took a look at how Deadly Aim fared at 6th level... I found that using Deadly Aim (-2 Attack/+4 Damage) increased DPR by about 11%. So on the face of it Arcane Strike is a “more worthwhile” feat investment than Deadly Aim...
However, when combined with the expenditure of a Ki point (something you cannot do with Arcane Strike), Deadly Aim increased DPR by 56%.
I’ve got a few levels to decide which feat I will be taking at level 5, but I do know I will be selecting both Arcane Strike and Deadly Aim eventually... I’ll just have to figure out which one will have better utility for me now.
I wouldn't burn ki points on mooks.
Also it is possible to run into DR that you don't bypass.
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I wouldn't burn ki points on mooks.
Also it is possible to run into DR that you don't bypass.
Agreed. I was just curious about the benefit as Deadly Aim is what I was planning on taking - but now I'm thinking of putting that off and taking Arcane Strike first...
So, to be clear - any of the Qinggong abilities that replicate an Arcane spell as an SLA is all that's needed to take Arcane Strike? It doesn't have to be one that does damage, such as Scorching Ray?
So, to be clear - any of the Qinggong abilities that replicate an Arcane spell as an SLA is all that's needed to take Arcane Strike? It doesn't have to be one that does damage, such as Scorching Ray?
True. I like getting gaseous form instead of wholeness of body.
Awesome Monk stuff...
I felt the same about my Lv 8 Dwarven Flowing/Sacred Mountain monk...
Lots of awesomeness solving the mystery of "No Response from Deepmar".
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Actually Dabbler, he didn't take flowing monk...but came close to it.
Since a few people have brought it up and a level of proof for my arguments may be in order,
So here you go Wolfism, Dabbler, Reshar, Krodjin and anyone else who was growing curious. Here he is.
Str 13
Dex 16
Con 18
Wis 18
Int 9
Char 7
Cadigan is a fifth level monk (Drunken Master, Master of Many Styles, Monk of the Sacred Mountain) and a second level Fighter (Brawler).
He is also a Pathfinder of the Silver Crusade faction.
HP: 80
Init: +4 (3 from Dex, 1 from cracked dusty ioun stone)
SPD: 40 ft.
Ac: Before combat:24. During combat: 28-30 (10 base, 3 Dex, 4 Wis, 1 Jingasa of Fortunate Soldier luck bonus, 1 Dodge, 1 natural from Sacred Mountain class feature, 1 natural from Amulet of Natural armor, 1 Dodge from Monk leveling, 1 From Bracers of Armor with brawling property) and 1 from Ring of Protection). If fighting defensively 4 ac is gained and attacks are at -1 (Crane Style and Wing). If starting and ending turn in Same square a +2 shield bonus occurs. Combined, his seventh level ac typically reaches 30 with the option of spending ki to make it 34.
CMD: 27. (10 base, 5 BAB, 1Str, 3 Dex, 1 Deflection, 1 Luck, 2 Dodge, 4 Wis). +2 vs grapple and +1 vs a fee others from Brawler. When fighting defensively cmd is 31 (so not really much higher than his ac).
CMB: +8 (5 Monk Maneuver Training, 2 Fighter, 1 str).
Feats: Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Archon Style, Archon Divergence, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Bodyguard, Endurance, Drunken Brawler, Toughness. Next two feats at lvl 9 are a toss up between Lunge, Standstill, Diehard, Fast Drinker or whatever else looks really good.
Traits Adopted(Halfling)-social, Helpful-racial, Fortified Drinker-religion.
Skills
7 Perception: +19 (5 eyes of eagle, 4 wisdom, 7 ranks, 3 class skill).
5 Heal: +9/11 with kit (5 ranks, 4 wisdom).
7 Acrobatics: +13 (7 ranks, 3 class skill, 3 Dex).
3 Stealth: +9 (3 ranks, 3 class skill, 3 dex).
2 Climb: +6 ( 2 ranks, 3 class skill, 1 str).
Vanities
Temple and Shining Wayfinder.
Fort: +11, Ref: +7, Will: +8 (with bonuses to fort and will when drinking).
Melee: +8 unarmed for 1d8+3 (1 str, 2 bracers of brawling).
Ki pool: 6
Drunken Ki pool: (usually) 2/2.
Stunning Fist 5/day DC 17.
Drunken Strength: 1d6.
Equipment
Tengu Drinking Jug
Jingasa of the fortunate Soldier
Shining Wayfinder
Diary Rose Prism (cracked)
Eyes of the Eagle
Pathfinders Pouch
Headband of Inspired Wisdom
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Ring of Protection +1
Bracers of Armor +1, Brawling
Potion of Barkskin +2
Potion of Enlarge Person (no need to take Lunge)
Potion of Invisibility
Silk rope
Grappling hook
Chirgeona Bag
Assorted basics such as rations, water skin, etc.
Assorted alchemical items for healing (troll styptic, antiplague) and a variety of items fitting for an adventurer (Thunderstones, acid flasks, holy water and the like).
Cadigam always carries at least one Alchemists Kindness and several bottles of whine for when his drinking jug runs dry.
Combat Cadigan carries a bottle of alcohol in one hand! Always. He starts his turns by entering Crane Style stance, ams fighting defensively. On round two he enters Archon Style stance for his allies. Cadigan always works to position himself in the most obnoxious location possible (for enemies) and the strongest place for allies. He is typically in the middle or front of any group. Cadigan likes to aid the battle with highly precise tactical actions such as cherry picking spellcasters (especially those who lob ranged ref save magics) with his stunning fists. Against more martial characters he stalls them with crane wing and uses archon diversion to let allies get additional attacks while he nullifies the enemies assault. When things are dire. Cadigan is fully capable of holding off giant monsters to let others escape and thanks to being more or less unmovable, can serve as a rather daunting blockade.
Out of combat her enjoys drinking and singing poorly. He makes an able scout and is an excellent trap spotter despite being unable to disarm them. Cadigan, while perennially drunk, rarely is caught by surprise or in an ambush. He spends much of his free time helping the poor and wounded with a disquieting and brooding calm, as though repenting for some unknown perceived failures.
He is really fun to play but his main weakness is ref saves and damage spells. Most casters would know not to waste time fireballing an unarmwd, bare-chested character, but since he tends to make people in his groups want to stand in fireball formation, it's bound to happen anyway. When injured he likes to drink to get the 7HP buffer but at a cumulative -2 to his ref saves, it can get scary. He rarely needs healing since he has more HP than most barbarians unraged (and more than a few who are raging), which combined with his ac, cmd, and various other class features makes him vulnerable to very few typical combat experiences. Flying creatures and ranged attackers are troublesome depending on terrain, but flyers who use ranged attacks AND neutralize allies who can target them make him want to cry (this has happened!). If he could negate ranged attacks for others and give his saves, he'd be in heaven. At this point he's looking into carrying a shortbow for flyers and more ways to keep allies alive or control the battlefield (punishing kick, touch of serenity).
He's lots of fun to role play, too. But the idea was how so I make a full support character who isn't a bard and doesn't use spells? Then I came up with this and optimized it some.
But yeah, I miss evasion and definitely wanted flowing monk (and even sensei).
Hope this proves my point for some of you. Also, a lot of people keep asking about infinite alcohol: Drinking Horn of Bottomless Valor is what Cadigan is saving up for currently. That will be soooo much fun. It is a drunken masters wet...well, you know. ;)
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As far as I'm aware, Brawling can't be put on Bracers of Armor because it specifies:
The wearer of brawling armor gains a +2 bonus on unarmed attack and damage rolls, including combat maneuver checks made to grapple. Her unarmed strikes count as magic weapons for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. These bonuses do not apply to natural weapons. This special ability does not prevent the wearer's unarmed strikes from provoking attacks of opportunity or make the wearer's unarmed strikes count as armed attacks. The brawling ability can be applied only to light armor.
Unarmored isn't the same as light armor. Unless there was a FAQ or Errata I don't know about, your Brawling property doesn't work. Not a truly major issue, as you are more focused on buffing allies, than fighting, but it is a little bit of an issue.
It's kind of a slap in the face for Monks.
Unfortunately, I think your guy can really only function inside PFS. The reason being, is that, outside of PFS, the GM can modify casters and enemies a bit to fit the group. For instance, instead of Fireball, I'd drop a Create Pit on the party. Dropping half the people into a hole, and then Wall of Icing or Wall of Stoning the top for good measure. Bonus if you can drop a Cloud Kill in there.
I believe PFS tends to use, mostly, core spells, so you don't have to worry about most of those things. One of the benefits and downsides of PFS, unfortunately. It's why I won't play it. PFS feels too much like a video game to me.
In addition, your guy would have some trouble at higher levels. You wouldn't really be contributing to the rocket tag of higher levels where dropping an enemy ASAP is necessary for the continued survival of the party. Dealing mediocre damage means you might be as much a hindrance, as help. It's not so much the melee enemies that are a worry at high levels, as it is the spells or spell-like abilities of enemies that results in TPKs.
Still, very interesting build. He'd make a great cohort.
Ninja'd, oh the shame.
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@Tels My monk isn't good at everything. Higher levels lead into stalwart defender, probably and more versatile feats. He'd have room for In Harms Way, Lunge, and more money to spend on permanent magic items to cover just those sorts of weaknesses. For now he used mundane items (create pit? I use !y grappling hook...or try to), or potions (enlarge helps get out of pits, so does flight, gaseous form, levitate, etc). Potions are cheap, but Pfs limits resources so more often than not, I rely on party members to do the things I can't...like any other character in any other party.
You are correct in his cohort/minion status. I built him specifically to make others shine while also encouraging actual organized teamwork. The +4 ac may not sound like much to you but it is a lot for any class. At higher level he continues to play up the halfling adopted trait and grabs racial heritage and the various other halfling ac boosting nonsense...including the one that increases allies ac by half my fighting defensively bonus. Further levels of brawler open up the ability to penalize attacks of nearby enemies, passively (effectively increasing allies ac and my own), while 7th level in monk, unlimited ki (due to unlimited alcohol) and a movement speed of 60-70 feet a round combined with 10+ temporary HP gained per drink means he can has an HP buffer equal to his level before he actually takes any damage and once he does, he can flee to safety, drink alcohol (regaining all those temporary HP) and standard action heal some of the actual damage away (only 7)....every round, for as long as needed this is assuming the entire party is in trouble and the healer or umd wand user is unable to heal my monk or actually finds it more important to heal someone else...assuming they can't just channel.
I considered making him a villains personal bodyguard for my own game but considering that my group is not familiar with optimization, it would result in a tpk or extreme frustration over time. But man would it be fun to troll the heck out of them with Cadigan. A villain with a memorable bodyguard/henchman who just doesn't die (more fun with the diehard feat and stalwart which he qualifies for) has a lot of potential storywise and tactially in combat.
You say that society play is limiting. It is. But if this was for a regular game, I would have built him differently. Maybe not much, but maybe with the longer haul in mind (ie. Racial heritage early and saving a trait slot for something else like reactionary etc). This way, I could squeeze more bang for the buck.
Cadigan is a teamwork player, versatile and thematic (many jokes about his surgical accuracy and 'steady' hands of a healer...whose always drunk). He works well in optimized groups, low optimized groups, and heavy rp situations. He is defensive and supportive and shows just one angle of the many facets that a monk has.
The main thing I believe that people should understand is that a monk can, offensively perform just fine. It takes some knowledge to do better right but even a vanilla monk is solid (see that post with a vanilla monk compared to vanilla fighter above). But a monks primary strength is defense and pinpoint tactical maneuvers. They can get to anywhere they want. Once there, they can debilitate with great efficacy. And every single round that someone is a monks target is a substantially increased chance of being debilitated and at least temporarily removed from the fight. Stunning fist, flurry, high saves, high ac and bonus movement combine in such a manner that when played properly, monks have all the offense they need and enough defense to ensure that if they did not debilitate you round one, they will likely live through to round two and try again (and likely stun you or combat manuever you or whatever).
I just don't think that every martial class has to kill something each round. The game shouldn't be about rocket tag and monks are perfect examples of it. They usually won't kill you on the first round and you generally aren't dropping one in a round or two or three, either. They're really a decent example of how gameplay should be at high levels. Still, the game IS rocket tag later. Paladins and monks do well at nor being blown to bits, though.
PS. I will have to check on the brawling property issue. If you are correct I will need to find another useful enchantmwnt (suggestions welcome), add another +1 to my ac or keep the cash and use it for something else.
Stuff.
I agree with a lot of what you said, and I should point out that I do understand the benefits of a +4 AC bonus from Ki. I am one of the pro-Monk people on the boards, so I am well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of Monks. I tend to play them as defensively focused as well, though I try to bring as much offense as I can squeeze out so I don't feel like a drain on the party.
However, I need to point out that your Monk is good in PFS, because the GMs hands are tied in what he can and cannot do.
I need to stress again that a GM adapts combats to the party. Not every combat, but if the party has some sort of long term goal, like overthrow the evil archlich, or something, then the minions of the lich should be learning the parties tricks. Sure, not all of them will, but the people most likely to throw AoE effects, casters, should adapt their spell selection accordingly.
You mention that the party tends to crowd around in fireball groups, such parties are great targets for other AoE effects, like create pit, or stinking clouds. Or shapeable Wall Spells, a favorite of mine is an Elemental (ice), Rime Wall of Fire; focus it in a circle facing inwards, and you trap a party in entangling ice. Really nasty for grouped up enemies, even just the regular wall one is bad. An Admixture Wizard can ignore the Elemental (Ice) metamagic feat by using his versatile evocation ability.
Monks are defensively focused, this is true. However, this is a hindrance at higher levels. One of the problems with the Monk is he can very often be the last person standing. All of the Monk's amazing defenses mean squat when the Monk isn't being targeted.
For example, the your Monk is great with melee combat, but it's not melee combat he should be worried about. It's the one-hit K.O. spells and spell-like abilities monsters have at higher levels that are being targeted at other party members.
Sure, you can make the saves on the Charms, Dominates, Fingers of Death, Disintegrates, etc, etc... but the Wizard isn't going to be making those Fort saves, and the martial is probably missing those Will saves.
The problem is, the monsters that can unleash those abilities, need to be dropped A.S.A.P. otherwise the party is dead. A Monk has the potential to whittle away at nearly any enemy, this is true, and can probably beat them, given enough time. But he longer enemies are on the board, the longer they have to toss out effects with saving throws.
When it comes to melee combat, Figthers, Barbarians, Rangers, Cavaliers, Paladins etc, aren't worried about it. Melee is what they were born to do. It's the other abilities that give them pause. A monster, for example, that has a poison attack on all of his claws, is far more deadly than one that doesn't, even if the poison monster does half as much damage. Every time a party member rolls a saving throw, is a potential roll that ends up with a crippling condition. Could be con damage, could be dex damage, could be sleep poison, could be level drain, could be any number of things. Those monsters are the ones that need to be dropped as soon as possible, to get the threat of those saving throws off the board.
It's not just poison though, could be auras, could be Supernatural abilities, could be spells, could be spell-like abilities. As the game increases in levels, saving throw effects become more common. It's faster to drop an enemy by draining his Con or Levels, than his HP in some cases. For instance, a party that goes up against someone like a Wizard with Greater Invisibility, and a Wand of Enervation is a terrifying opponent. He could be almost anywhere, tossing out 1d4 level drain, while his summons, minions and mooks occupy the party's focus. The Monk typically has a great touch AC, and Enervation targets touch AC without a saving throw, but the rest of the party is likely to have a 10-14 touch AC, meaning they will be taking a loss in levels.
Monks have a hard time dropping threats like the above before having to make large a number of saving throws. The Monk might be untouchable, with is high AC and high saves, but that means the monster can just go after someone else, especially if the Monk can't stop the monster from doing so.
In PFS, this is less of an issue. You don't see as many TPK monsters (though some scenarios are just difficult), and in my experience, you see a lot more humanoids. If all you're fighting is humans, elves, dwarves, tieflings etc, you have less to worry about, because they don't typically have saving throw rider son their abilities, and the only ones who are tossing out spells are the casters, and they tend to be very squishy.
In PFS, Monks are great! Their skills are useful, they don't have to worry about the rapid increase in CMD that becomes prevalent after level 10-12ish, they can focus on defense and still be a threat in combat.
I know there is a group of PFS players down at my local hobby store that is currently running a 4-man team of Monks that have had very few issues. They've all been defensively focused, and are coming out on top of their scenarios with little to no trouble in combat. Sure, fights go through more rounds, but the speed of their combat is astonishing. In half an hour, many groups get through a handful of rounds (say 5) depending on party comp and size. These guys are doing 10-15 rounds in 30 minutes.
PFS, to me, is like a video game. It's built to have a certain baseline of power, but that baseline of power is extremely easy to overcome. Once you optimize over that baseline, you might as well be playing in God Mode as only a few areas will truly challenge you.
Home games are different. In home games, if you turn on God Mode, then the GM can turn on Anti-God Mode to counter. However, if you have a new GM, or one that has a lower expectation of power, then your Monk can really dominate.
The effectiveness of a Monk depends largely on the experience of the GM. For instance, a new GM probably won't deviate much from the written modules or APs, but experienced GMs will probably toss in custom stuff, or customize monsters. The new GMs could see optimized Monks running around destroying their campaign, especially if the other players aren't optimized. It's form these people that you hear things like 'Monks are over powered!'.
The experienced GM, will tweak adventures to fit the party and counter their tactics. In these campaigns, you see less Monks, because anything they can bring to the table, someone else can bring and be better at it. A paladin, for example, rivals the Monk for sheer defensive power, while also having substantialy offense, meanwhile the Bard has less defense, but more offense than a Monk, and puts the Monk to shame in the skills department.
In my opinion, Monks are great 5th mans in a party. Back-up skill and back-up martial at the same time. A Wizard, Cleric, Bard, Monk, (Martial) is a solid party, in my opinion, as the Monk then has fairly free reign to run around and do what he does best, get into hard to reach spots and cause problems.
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Sorry, I never do TL/DR clips of my posts because I tend to ramble in them. I try to stay 'on topic' as much as possible, but I sometimes throw in tangents.
The closest I could come is...
TL/DR PFS is very restrictive to GMs and gives lots of power to players. If they can overcome the 'power threshold' of PFS, it makes the game pretty easy.
Monsters with saving throws need to be put down ASAP because they can give out crippling conditions. Monks have trouble in doing this because their offense is very sub-par.
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The above doesn't cover a lot of the bonus stuff I threw in, but it basically hits the two main highlights of what I posted.
[Edit] I have to point out, if someone is willing to read a Monk thread of any sort, they should expect to read long posts. They tend to go hand in hand with each other.
How about the most usefull Monk?
I just started a Monk and chose Dodge, Mobility, improved Initiative and fleetx2.
I may not hit as hard as most, but by moving first, and having the ability to move to where I need to be is often more important then an extra d6 of damage.
Old saying speed is power on the Battlefield.
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Sorry, I never do TL/DR clips of my posts because I tend to ramble in them. I try to stay 'on topic' as much as possible, but I sometimes throw in tangents.
The closest I could come is...
TL/DR PFS is very restrictive to GMs and gives lots of power to players. If they can overcome the 'power threshold' of PFS, it makes the game pretty easy.
Monsters with saving throws need to be put down ASAP because they can give out crippling conditions. Monks have trouble in doing this because their offense is very sub-par.
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The above doesn't cover a lot of the bonus stuff I threw in, but it basically hits the two main highlights of what I posted.
[Edit] I have to point out, if someone is willing to read a Monk thread of any sort, they should expect to read long posts. They tend to go hand in hand with each other.
Thanks Tels. After re-reading my post I want to say thanks for not taking it the wrong way. I was trying to be light and jokey, but realize now it came off kind jerky... The perils of posting pre-coffee I guess!