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Someone recently posted a pure speed monk with mantis style. I love the idea and see the value. It is entirely different than any monk I had previously imagined but 200 feet movement a round, 20+ high DC stuns per day, and a handful of other really neat features just made me smile like a child on Christmas morning.
@Tels, I agree that DMS in customer, games can adapt better. The monk, of course, is still the last man standing. But when it comes to stopping threats that can ruin your party, the monks job is clear: run over and stun, grapple, anything that likes to throw out magic and is likely to have a manageable cmd or fort save. If all the threats have hordes of cmd and fort saves, you move into flanking position for the rogue or charging + enraged barbarian. If that isn't the case then you attempt to draw fire for a round or two via flurry and spend the kids for am extra attack. You'll hit and between forcing a save on one and swinging that many times, no intelligent creature would risk sticking around in melee, even if you didn't tag them with a rocket. We both know that no smart player would stay next to 6-wish attacks a round and a potential save on one, even if the damage was not super high per hit.
When there are weak monsters, monks move into the thick of them and kill all the weaklings with their bonus attacks. Fodder is just that and monks can adequately manhandle weak things very quickly due to having so many attacks. Fodder has low HP and low ac/cmd. Skirmisher describes the class nicely. But dealing damage is not their forte, although they can if they sacrifice enough for it.
I feel that if monks recieved 6 skill points per level, a few more skills, and a couple more useful things to do with their ki (like boost skill checks, or something supportive), then the class would be perfect (minus that whole super movement speed and inability to use all those attacks without choosing to lose the movement). Heck, let monks spend 1-2 ki for bonus attacks after a move.
Sounds like we mostly agree on the class but differ in opinion about contribution into the higher levels.
Feats make it harder for the monk as abilities, not easier. They should make an archetype, much like qinngong monk, no replacements, that allows abilities to be added.
Much to the same effect that the Totem Barbarian archetype had for a while, till errated useless. Otherwise, making it as a feat negates the purpose of making the class better.
A full rewrite is not happening. And I don't think it needs to. The monk class is perfectly functional and playable.
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I agree, but the lack of Full BAB outside of flurry means that the Monk is penalized for using their class features together. You can move 90' a round, but if you move and a attack, your chance to hit drops. It makes no sense. Wholeness of Body was originally a Lay on Hands clone, so it should have been buffed when Lay on Hands was.
I disagree that the monk should be full BAB. It makes sense to me that the unique martial style of the monk mixes poorly with other martial styles.
Now would it be nice if monks had a better way to use their standard action attack? Yes. I think the idea was that combat maneuvers would be the monk's opener. Unfortunately at higher levels CMDs become impractical to break.
I also like how both issues are solved with Dragon style (dragon roar + elemental fist) and qinggong monk (trade out wholeness of body for something better)
@Dabbler: I don't see the point of your post? Dark Immortal never claimed that his Monk build could Solo a boss encounter? It sounds like none of the Characters in your party could have solo'd this guy either... If you are saying a Monk couldn't have contributed to this encounter I have to respectfully disagree; Dark Immortal's build could contribute to taking this BBEG down and so could my Zen Archer.
And what can he contribute? The thing that counts against this monster is damage and debuffs, and this monk can do neither. Sorry if I come over as harsh, it's an excellent build but it's making the most of a nerfed class, rather than the most of a good class.
+4 AC means squat to a creature with this attack bonus; AC is always outstripped by to-hit bonus. It's going to get it's hits in regardless.
In fact, with such a low AC, my ZAM would pin cushion this particular BBEG... If I had a way to keep this BBEG at bay for just a few rounds (like say a raging Barbarian getting in his face) the fight would be over.
Exactly. The ZAM has an offence that works. This monk doesn't.
Pfff if you think core monk is weak, then liberally apply dragon style, Qinggong, and arcane strike. You may even out damage most fighters, if not you will be at least close. AND if you feel like doing lower rogue DPR you can power attack to have roughly the same to-hit and damage.
Out-damage, possibly. Out hit, never, and DPR is a combination of accuracy and damage. You can have massive damage, but if you only hit rarely someone hitting more often for less damage will have a higher DPR. Plus, if you run into DR...
Yep... accuracy is really the big issue. Monk damage is largely fine... the problem is that damage is dependent upon actually connecting with the target...
So, fighters and barbarians and rangers end up with some sort of accuracy boost, while the monk really never does.
So a fighter pops on some monks robes, and he is dealing 1d8 damage. By level 20, the monk is up to 2d10... woo-hoo and all, but th real difference is an average of 4.5 versus an average of 11. So 6.5 damage, and the fighter is getting +7 from weapon training/gloves and +4 from weapon spec feats, and +2 from brawling armor that the monk can't really wear.... so the fighter is up by +6.5.... +8.5 if he took the brawler archtype.
The bigger issue, however, is that with +7 from weapon training, +2 from drawling armor and +1 from greater weapon focus... the fighter is going to have +10 to hit that a monk won't get.
And that's the crux of the problem. There are only two combat classes that do not get a bonus to hit - the cavelier (who gets loads of bonuses to damage and other goodies) and the monk, who's given dubious title of the strongest at the weakest combat style while being nerfed in the accuracy and MAD department as well. The monk needs it more than anyone, but doesn't get it.
Of course monk can't be as good as fighter, barbarian and rangers in terms of hitting. Hitting is all fighter, barbarian and ranger does, they train to fight. Monk train to make their body closer to perfection. Which is good at hitting someone with weak defence, mostly wizard or monster that can't block/dodge attacks very well. You use the speed of monk to get close to them really quick and grapple, if they got out, just punch them to dead.
Gosh. So the monk is good at beating up enemies...everyone can beat up. Even the cleric or rogue can beat up these enemies without buffing. Your point was?
Yeah we're looking at the difference between killing a Balor in 2 or 3 rounds.
No, we're talking about maybe killing the balor in the first round and most definitely getting his attention until he's dead, as compared to mildly annoying him while he goes after the rest of the party.
Isolated, a monk can be good because he's the ONLY target. But this is a team game, it's all about the party and contributing to the party success. So being able to whittle enemies down isn't worth jack when the party needs a quick win, and leaves the monk player wondering what the point of his character is.
I wouldn't burn ki points on mooks.
Also it is possible to run into DR that you don't bypass.
+5 weapon gets past most kinds of DR: materials (cold iron/silver) at +3, hardness-based (adamantine) at +4, and alignment-based (good/evil/chaotic/lawful) at +5. With the increased cost of the AoMF, and it's +5 cap, you are behind the curve when it comes to bypassing hardness and alignment based. If you want any properties on that AoMF at all, you're never getting past any alignment-based DR save lawful (even the brawler gets a choice of what he gets to bypass, but not the monk).
@Dark Immortal, looks like a great build, and I like your design philosophy, but where did those stats come from? Even if you got a +2 on two stats and no negatives, I make that a 29 point buy which is no wonder they are awesome.
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5 weapon gets past most kinds of DR: materials (cold iron/silver) at +3, hardness-based (adamantine) at +4, and alignment-based (good/evil/chaotic/lawful) at +5. With the increased cost of the AoMF, and it's +5 cap, you are behind the curve when it comes to bypassing hardness and alignment based. If you want any properties on that AoMF at all, you're never getting past any alignment-based DR save lawful (even the brawler gets a choice of what he gets to bypass, but not the monk).
Which is why Martial Artist is so good. Being able to bypass all DR with a Wis check is much better than Ki Strike. Monk of the empty hand can also bypass any DR by carrying durable arrows of various special materials and bypass any DR as needed using their improvised weapons schtick. Zen Archers have clustered shots. Everyone else is stuck with Ki Strike or going with a +5 AoMF, which sucks if you are Dex based and need Agile.
Lots of stuff. The TL/DR version is: Monks suck.
I think you're missing the point. AFAIK, nobody here has said that the monk is the best class ever (though I'm sure lots of folks love the flavor). The main thrust of discussion here seems to be builds that can hold their own and contribute when part of a party. The builds may have weaknesses, but so does every other class. That's why they're in a party- each member contributes their strengths while doing what they can to cover for the weaknesses of others.
Your points seem to boil down to "Monks can't do rocket tag, and even when they can they can't rocket tag as effectively as another class." A side point, or at least a hidden implication, is "any GM can crush/defang such and such monk build with such and such type of monster." The first point is at minimum partially true, while the second is entirely true. But in my gaming circles at least, both points happen a lot less than it would seem. The GM's I play with are more interested in making sure their players have moments to shine and that everyone has fun. There might be a few battles where any particular character doesn't get to do much, but not too many. A GM who fills a lot of game time with battles that aren't fun for a monk player is likely to be permenantly minus a player after a while.
But any weak build can be defended by saying that it does fine so long as the GM panders to it. I think the builds discussed in the thread have gone a long way to say that monks can compete at both high and low tables *as part of a party.* At unoptimized tables they can excel individually. At optimized tables they can excel by supporting the other optimized party members. Sure, they can be defanged when thrown against certain monsters, but most builds can be defanged by opponents that are designed to counter them (whether the opponent is a 'stock' pregen monster or deliberate build).
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5 weapon gets past most kinds of DR: materials (cold iron/silver) at +3, hardness-based (adamantine) at +4, and alignment-based (good/evil/chaotic/lawful) at +5. With the increased cost of the AoMF, and it's +5 cap, you are behind the curve when it comes to bypassing hardness and alignment based. If you want any properties on that AoMF at all, you're never getting past any alignment-based DR save lawful (even the brawler gets a choice of what he gets to bypass, but not the monk).Which is why Martial Artist is so good. Being able to bypass all DR with a Wis check is much better than Ki Strike. Monk of the empty hand can also bypass any DR by carrying durable arrows of various special materials and bypass any DR as needed using their improvised weapons schtick. Zen Archers have clustered shots. Everyone else is stuck with Ki Strike or going with a +5 AoMF, which sucks if you are Dex based and need Agile.
Exactly my point.
A full rewrite is not happening. And I don't think it needs to. The monk class is perfectly functional and playable.
How do you keep a straight face saying that? Lot's of maths, and lots of experience, has gone into showing that without a PhD in system mastery, specific archetypes, and cherry-picked equipment this simply doesn't happen. Even the devs have admitted the monk needs improving...they just aren't sure how.
I agree a total rewrite is not on the cards, but incremental improvements certainly should be.
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I disagree that the monk should be full BAB. It makes sense to me that the unique martial style of the monk mixes poorly with other martial styles.I think it makes sense that monks have a full BAB because they have spent years trying to physically and spiritually perfect themselves. It would make sense that they have more in-class bonuses to hit than rogues do.
Now would it be nice if monks had a better way to use their standard action attack? Yes. I think the idea was that combat maneuvers would be the monk's opener. Unfortunately at higher levels CMDs become impractical to break.Which is a real problem for monks because they now have no option that doesn't take a severe hit if the enemy is ever 2 squares away. It makes their uber-speed become rather useless in combat if using it dumps your attack bonus.
I also like how both issues are solved with Dragon style (dragon roar + elemental fist) and qinggong monk (trade out wholeness of body for something better)
The options here are a band-aid archetype that every monk takes because it gives up nothing for something nice, and a feat chain that eats away at the monk's feat choices and removes the option of one of the best defensive feat chains in the game [crane style].
Dragon Style is nice, but it only makes you functionally the same as a 2 handed fighter [archetype] with a greatsword, except you get a slightly higher damage die. Slightly, not incredibly.
Don't get me wrong, Dragon Style is a great option for strength-based monks, but all dragon style does is make your first unarmed strike fundamentally the same as a 2-handed club with a high damage die size (you have a 20/x2 crit range, bludgeoning damage, 1.5STR on the attack), and then ferocity gives you 2xStr on your first attack (like 2-handed fighters get, except, in reverse) and all the rest of your attacks get 1.5STR essentially. This doesn't fix you entirely, as you still don't have any attack bonus gained from your class other than flurry, and have burned 2 feats on getting to where you are the same as a fighter. Fixing monk is an accuracy game, not a damage game. All Dragon Style does is play a damage game, and not an accuracy game.
I agree a total rewrite is not on the cards, but incremental improvements certainly should be.
Yep, and its already started. The next step I think should be allowing Brawling Bracers of Armor.
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What I would personally like to see happen is scrap the monks Unarmed Damaged upgrades after the initial d6, and in it's place put Weapon Training that only applies to unarmed strikes and monk weapons, and have it increase at each level the Unarmed Damage currently upgrades. It would let you use Gloves of Dueling, fix the accuracy problem, and keep your average damage the same.
A full rewrite is not happening. And I don't think it needs to. The monk class is perfectly functional and playable.How do you keep a straight face saying that? Lot's of maths, and lots of experience, has gone into showing that without a PhD in system mastery, specific archetypes, and cherry-picked equipment this simply doesn't happen. Even the devs have admitted the monk needs improving...they just aren't sure how.
I agree a total rewrite is not on the cards, but incremental improvements certainly should be.
I played a TWF rogue recently...
The monks damage is non situation. "Can I full attack?"
The monks damage can be boosted to respectable levels with a feat chain.
Even without that feat chain, the monk damage is still decent and noticeable.
A class doesn't have to be the best to be functional and playable. I think fighters are a functional class too, even though a barbar/paladin is basically a fighter + more.
There is a difference between being functional and being balanced. The devs are right, the monk is on the weaker side, but that does not make it unplayable. Qinggong monk + dragon style + arcane strike is a character I would feel comfortable bringing to any table regardless of optimization levels.
I am aware of the changes, and also that they do not go anything like far enough. Next step for me is:
* Change ki-strike to an actual enhancement bonus. +1 at 4th level, and +1 per three levels after to +5 at 16th level. This roughly tracks existing bonuses available to other classes, while leaving the Amulet of Mighty Fists as a handy means of gaining the properties other weapon-users have available to them. It's hardly broken, given the bladebound magus or the soulknife...
* Give the monk the option of wisdom-to-hit (instead of strength or dex) for ALL monk types, possibly including the monk AC bonus as a bonus to hit as well, but all applicable only to monk weapons and the unarmed strike. This helps resolve the monk's MADness and improves his biggest failing in combat: being unable to hit anything with a telling AC. As I haven't seen a horde of CoDzilla builds dipping Sensei, I don't think it's an issue.
* Give the bonus attack from ki to any attack action the monk takes on his turn. Hence he can charge and hit twice, being more of the mobile combatant he was meant to be.
* Make the 20' move on ki a swift action. Again, this lets him me a more mobile class. Hell, if rage-pounce barbarian isn't broken this certainly isn't...
I've been play-testing these changes (among others) and they lead to a monk that isn't broken, but is effective. I even stated out a monk to 20th level to see if it would be broken with these changes, and it's not by a long shot. Best of all it changes very little and doesn't suddenly make any existing monk builds invalid.
I am aware of the changes, and also that they do not go anything like far enough. Next step for me is:
* Change ki-strike to an actual enhancement bonus. +1 at 4th level, and +1 per three levels after to +5 at 16th level. This roughly tracks existing bonuses available to other classes, while leaving the Amulet of Mighty Fists as a handy means of gaining the properties other weapon-users have available to them. It's hardly broken, given the bladebound magus or the soulknife...
* Give the monk the option of wisdom-to-hit (instead of strength or dex) for ALL monk types, possibly including the monk AC bonus as a bonus to hit as well, but applicable only to monk weapons and the unarmed strike. This helps resolve the monk's MADness and improves his biggest failing in combat: being unable to hit anything with a telling AC. As I haven't seen a horde of CoDzilla builds dipping Sensei, I don't think it's an issue.
* Give the bonus attack from ki to any attack action the monk takes on his turn. Hence he can charge and hit twice, being more of the mobile combatant he was meant to be.
* Make the 20' move on ki a swift action. Again, this lets him me a more mobile class. Hell, if rage-pounce barbarian isn't broken this certainly isn't...
I've been play-testing these changes (among others) and they lead to a monk that isn't broken, but is effective. I even stated out a monk to 20th level to see if it would be broken with these changes, and it's not by a long shot. Best of all it changes very little and doesn't suddenly make any existing monk builds invalid.
*as long as it doesn't stack with amulet of mighty fist
*Wis to damage is an acceptable idea. Bonuses to hit are not how you fix a class.
*Interesting idea. Overpowered at low levels
*hmmm... I like it!
I could see maybe one of those things being errata to the monk, so which one do you want the most?
Bonues to hit were how they fixed the Fighter. Weapon Training is huge.
And that lead to an arms race with paladins, and rangers gaining bonuses to hit. This lead to the barbar needing something special too which lead to superstition and RAGELANCEPOUCE.
Suddenly every class now needs bonuses to-hit.
Oh yes. Weapon training did fix the fighter, but it also came close to breaking other classes.
Wis to damage is an acceptable idea. Bonuses to hit are not how you fix a class.It really is how you fix a class. Especially a monk or rogue that has no bonuses to attack or damage.
It really just leads to power creep.
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It really just leads to power creep.Wis to damage is an acceptable idea. Bonuses to hit are not how you fix a class.It really is how you fix a class. Especially a monk or rogue that has no bonuses to attack or damage.
Power creep is already here. To maintain balance you either need to bring up the underperformers like Monk and Rogue, or nerf everyone else.
if those are my two options, then i'd rather things stay just like they are.
It really just leads to power creep.
Warpriest of Irori says hi.
*as long as it doesn't stack with amulet of mighty fist
Like bonuses do not stack is a standard rule. Hence if you have a +1 Holy amulet of mighty fists on a 13th level monk (ki strike +4) his attacks would still be +4 but would also be holy.
*Wis to damage is an acceptable idea. Bonuses to hit are not how you fix a class.
Worked for the fighter, paladin, and ranger. The Barbarian already had them in effect. It also works with Weapon Finesse on the rogue. I would want to take the emphasis away from damage and onto hitting, and leave wis-to-damage as a weapon property (guided) or feat. The monk's single biggest problems are MAD and connecting with an attack - not for nothing is Flurry-of-Blows called "flurry-of-misses". Generally the monk is +4-6 behind his peers in attack bonus by moderate-to-mid levels.
The problem with the monk's attacks are multiple and overlapping:
1. MADness - he can sometimes not afford as high a hitting stat as his peers.
2. Enhancement - he is stuck with only one, expensive, enhancing item. This sets him behind the curve as well, by around -1 across the low-to-mid levels.
3. Style and BAB - his 3/4 BAB puts him -1 to -5 behind, flurry puts him -2 behind. He has no option to NOT flurry and deliver a single high-accuracy strike as the other full BAB classes could.
4. Class Features - the full-BAB classes (save the cavalier) have features that add to their accuracy, the fighter can get up to +5 to hit from his over and above what is available to the monk, and that's just the start.
I'm proposing to fix three of these - MADness, enhancement, and class features. The monk will remain behind the curve due to Style and BAB, but he'll be on the same race-track for once.
*Interesting idea. Overpowered at low levels
Not in my play-tests it wasn't! You only get ki at 4th level, after all, and at that level the extra attack didn't even begin to compensate for the barbarian's rage and damage output when standing still...and moving. It made the monk more effective, though, and proved most effective after he picked up Improved Trip: Dart in, trip two foes, let the real hitters come in and finish them off...
*hmmm... I like it!
Glad to hear it.
I could see maybe one of those things being errata to the monk, so which one do you want the most?
I intended them to work as a suite of minor changes, to the point of working out the difference in word count it would make in the CRB. I would say any of them would be an improvement on the monk as is, though.
Oh, one other change: I made the monk proficient with all "monk" weapons. A small change, but an important one it turns out. Most monk weapons are rubbish, and not worth the cost of a feat to gain. However giving monks access to them does allow them a few more tricks they otherwise wouldn't have. The monk in my play-test LOVES his shang gou, and it gives him a lot of extra options.
Oh, one other change: I made the monk proficient with all "monk" weapons. A small change, but an important one it turns out. Most monk weapons are rubbish, and not worth the cost of a feat to gain. However giving monks access to them does allow them a few more tricks they otherwise wouldn't have. The monk in my play-test LOVES his shang gou, and it gives him a lot of extra options.
lol I didn't even notice that monks weren't proficient in monk weapons.
Now that is a change I can see the devs easily making!
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Now that is a change I can see the devs easily making!
And unfortunately, they didn't. Its a silly ruling IMO, I'd allow it in a home game, but it doesn't look like we will be seeing any monks with the new monk weapons for a while unless they dip unarmed fighter.
Now that is a change I can see the devs easily making!And unfortunately, they didn't. Its a silly ruling IMO, I'd allow it in a home game, but it doesn't look like we will be seeing any monks with the new monk weapons for a while unless they dip unarmed fighter.
FAQs are used to clarify the rules. The monk doesn't receive proficiency in monk weapons. FAQs aren't where the devs change the rules or where they must express a desire to change the rules.
The ruling is not silly, the monk's "Weapon and Armor Proficiency" section is what is silly.
@ Dabbler
How does Wis to hit help make them less mad? (Just curious) You can already swap to Dex to hit with a feat. How is Wis better? Just better class synergy? You would still need Str for damage, right? Sorry if these sound like dumb questions. I'm just not clear on why Wis to hit makes them less MAD than Dex or Str. Seems like you would still want all three.
I don't really think the madness is an issue.
Human monk at lvl 1 can have 17st 14con 14dex 10int 14wis 8cha your only real problem there is your AC being a little low. At later levels you catch up though. (I refuse to build any character with a 7)
If you can convince the party wizard to cast mage armor on you that puts you at a respectable 18.
monks would only need dex wis and con, thats why they would be less mad.
if strength wasnt an issue, then you could agile or guided an AoMF which only costs 4k now for a +1 equivilent, i think...
You can do that now with weapon finesse. I thought the main complaint with a Dex build was lack of damage. If you're using Str for damage then I don't see how Wis to hit is helping a whole lot.
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You can do that now with weapon finesse. I thought the main complaint with a Dex build was lack of damage. If you're using Str for damage then I don't see how Wis to hit is helping a whole lot.monks would only need dex wis and con, thats why they would be less mad.
if strength wasnt an issue, then you could agile or guided an AoMF which only costs 4k now for a +1 equivilent, i think...
yes you can, and that wastes a feat, it also forces you to use dex over your main stat of wisdom. so its not the same thing at all.
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@ Dabbler
How does Wis to hit help make them less mad? (Just curious) You can already swap to Dex to hit with a feat. How is Wis better? Just better class synergy? You would still need Str for damage, right? Sorry if these sound like dumb questions. I'm just not clear on why Wis to hit makes them less MAD than Dex or Str. Seems like you would still want all three.
All the monk's special abilities hinge off Wisdom, which he is forced to make a secondary stat (save for a few archetypes) if he wants to be any good at hitting things in combat. Wis-to-hit means that not only might his stunning fist actually land, the target may even fail their save. (Seriously, I took a monk from 8th level to 13th without one single solitary success with stunning fist for that entire period - and then because the target rolled a '1' on it's save.)
You would still need strength for damage, or else a property like "guided", and you would still need Dex for AC, Con for hit points - the major difference is that you only need one maxed-out stat (Wisdom), not two (the rest can be moderate). With a guided amulet, a low-strength, decent dex, safron clad little guy able to take on an 800lb gorilla is possible, not laughable. Otherwise the most effective monks are non-archtypical hulks of muscle magically made giant-size - I don't have a problem with that being the kind of monk that some people want to play, I just object to it being the only viable monk from level 1.
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Tetori monk is broken to the point that it can shut down almost any fight with minimal effort. Their modifiers on CMB and CMD get so high (assuming a proper build) that you could put a great wyrm in an arm bar on a roll of 5, if that's any indication. They become able to grapple incorporeal creatures, use dimensional anchor to prevent various magical means of escape, and are overall just bad news. Besides that, a lot of people like to use spellflingers as the resident big bad. The odds of them managing to cast a spell once you pin them are slim to none, and you can easily pin them in one round once you've got a few levels under your belt. Yes, even if you have to walk over to them.
I've only seen one tetori at my table, and it was a seriously one trick pony. If it couldn't grapple, it literally couldn't do anything.
So is it possible to build a tetori with decent defenses, the usual high grappling ability, while still dealing good damage?
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Lol @ Mystically. BTW, you summed up my points rather nicely. I am just proving that monks can be good (great even) in party play. And thankfully, nobody is doubting their soloing ability...which leads us to the issue of what the expectation of any class should be.
First, I see classes like the master spy. It's a cool class. But in a fight what does it bring to the table compared to a fighter? Nothing except some sneak attack dice which aren't likely to land. But nobody is complaining about why the master spy is so weak. Why? Because this is an RPG not a hack fest. Every combat class doesn't need perfect Bab progression.
Someone earlier in the thread asked me what I would do with the kids pool to 'fix' the monk. The answer is really anything. Dabbler caught on and touched on two main and important things: converting some of the uses of ki to some action type faster than swift (free, immediate, etc) and allowing monks to use the kids pool to move and make multiple attacks in a round.
The class is very flexible but the core is an extremely mobile, highly adroit skirmisher with a very heavy focus on defense and survivability. The class has solid damage potential but damage is not their forte so much as debilitation and otherwise hindrance. The use of the ki pool to provide bonus attacks off off a move, to apply more frequent debilitating maneuvers (higher stun DC at certain levels and/or additional effects separate from stunning fist and/or touch attack stunning fists limit per day as they level, etc).
The monk does fine in combat. The main. Argument is that people want them to kill stuff faster and better like a fighter, ranger, paladin and barbarian and to use that as the baseline (damage) for their contribution to a party.
@Dabbler
25 point buy. Starting stats were a 13, 14, 15, 16, 9, 7, with a +2 from human on the 14, +1 from fourth level advancement and +2 to wish and con from two different gears, one of which I forgot to list. I could have easily had another one or two +2's on other stats in addition to what is shown but I wanted to save some cash and purchased other stuff, instead.
But if we are talking about making a more accurate, hard hitting monk I am positive that this can easily be done while still keeping all the 'I can't die' goodness of the monk. Yeah, we are working harder to get where a high strength modestly optimized two handed fighter is....but so what? Is the expectation that we should be as good as or better than that fighter offensively and still superior defensively and with more and better skills and more as better saves and ki powers and poison immunity and..and...and...
Contribution comes in many different forms. And not all big bad guys are just spellcasters. Even at high levels many are still large melee grappling, swallowing, reach having nightmares with poisonous claws and bites, etc. Why can't the poison and disease immune monk stand near the disease on hit mummy? And not every enemy is intelligent enough to ignore someone or even capable of safely escaping. Just how many hits/attacks does a monk have to land before it counts as one from a normal class? 3? 7? Because a monk will hit. Not every single time, but they will hit. And those strikes might not individually be auto-death or so dramatic that the target is nearing it...but if a flurry with expended ki point and a potential aoo and stunning fist attempt don't count then I must conclude that none of the average progression classes can hit and the monk, Even when he is, is dealing no damage that registers on the monsters HP marker.
What I am trying to say is that I really do not think that this class is as terrible as others (not you) have made it out to be and that it should be able to contribute reasonably well in any given situation as often as any other character. Every enemy won't avoid the Monk, and even intelligent ones won't necessarily do so even after engaging him/her. I do no find it unreasonable to assume that intelligent threats might simply change tactics on the monl rather than wander off to hit someone else (though I have seen both intelligent and unintelligent foes do just that against several different classes).
Finally @whoever said pfs was an arcade.
Sometimes it is easily. Especially when you are optimized and people work with you. But pfs is random....and not every adventure is about combat. Many hinge on role playing and skill checks. Several involve important chases and sleuthwork. And some of the combat ones have surprise rounds that deal roughly 100+ damage to characters of just under 9th level. I know because I was there, in the monsters belly and near dead after being healed....
If that had happened to any spellcaster, someone with lower con and/or a smaller HD or a lower ac, they'd have been dead.
Pfs tends to be roughly the same as most non society games I have played, but a bit more difficult due to the limitations, true random rolls of the dice, unknown allies, unknown plots and unknown enemies. When it is hard...it's hard. And when it is easy it can be very easy. Maybe it is like an arcade game but the arcade games I grew up with were rather difficult and ate up all sorts of quarters.
If you bump the damage high enough that you don't power attack, the monk is pretty accurate.
I disagree. If you build some extra damage you create a well rounded character without weaknesses.
What is a good way to build an "Iconic" monk. IE, the supreme martial artist with fists of stone and fire :D (if possible)
human bonus feat: Power Attack (use this on low AC enemies or when smashing objects)
Feats from levels:Toughness, Dragon style, Dragon Ferocity, Elemental Fist(fire), Dragon Roar, Weapon Focus(unarmed strike), dodge?, lightning reflexes, Iron will, Great Fortitude
Monk bonus feats: Combat Reflexes, Stunning fist, Deflect Arrows, Improved Grapple, Spring Attack, Improved Critical, Snatch Arrows