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2. Fervor - Undead get NO saves? Wow, that is going to make some Paladin's very jealous. Especially when Warpriests of Irori run around exploding Vampires with their fists.
"Lay On Hands (Su): Alternatively, a paladin can use this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures, dealing 1d6 points of damage for every two levels the paladin possesses. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage."
Why? Paladins are much better at it, do not have to split this between Wis and Cha needs, and can also Smite with it.
Mmmm. Good point. I was more talking about the flexility of the power, but in the end having to split Wis/Cha on it does nerf it quite a bit. #2 was more a quibble than a big issue.
Now this is the WARpreist I wanted to see. Cant wait to play this class.
Overall I like the revisions, especially sacred weapon damage. I could see my players having fun with it.
I don't like that the warpriest gets his level as his BAB for his sacred weapon, however. It seems like the devs are creating a "Paladin for any alignment" class, and that doesn't sit right with me. They already get 6th level spells, why give them full BAB as well? I'm probably biased, as 3/4 of my characters are paladins, but that's beside the point. It just looks like the warpriest will become the new Paladin since they can be CG or CN or LN or some other some other easier alignment.
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Overall I like the revisions, especially sacred weapon damage. I could see my players having fun with it.
I don't like that the warpriest gets his level as his BAB for his sacred weapon, however. It seems like the devs are creating a "Paladin for any alignment" class, and that doesn't sit right with me. They already get 6th level spells, why give them full BAB as well? I'm probably biased, as 3/4 of my characters are paladins, but that's beside the point. It just looks like the warpriest will become the new Paladin since they can be CG or CN or LN or some other some other easier alignment.
Whats a paladin?
but seriously I wouldn't worry, paladins still have smite evil over the warpreist, and they are less MAD.
Level as BAB for the weapon that you pick for your free Weapon Focus is a bit overpowered imo. I would rather see an ability to add either WIS or CHA to attack rolls for your sacred weapon.
I also think sacred weapon should be limited to one choice, rather than having it work on anything you pick up with weapon focus.
One last thing, are spells supposed to be based on WIS still? This class is still pretty MAD, and even more so now that Fervor exists and is based on CHA while spells are still based on WIS, and I need to be able to use both in order to cast as a swift in combat. Seems pretty silly.
I also think that Sacred Weapon damage should scale better, not that I don't love lvl 20 abilities, but having to wait until lvl 20 to get 2d8 damage and only being able to enjoy it for that level makes me sad. It should hit 2d8 by 17th level (the same level prepared casters get 9th level spells too) and the rest of the damage should be scaled appropriately to reflect that.
Overall I really like this class, though I do think Travel Domain is still better than Travel Blessing as far as combat goes, that is one thing I noticed.
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I do have to echo something I saw earlier in the thread: Sacred Weapon needs to adjust both damage bonus and critical multiplier.
Otherwise, I'll be rolling up a Warpriest with Weapon Focus (Pistol) and eventually doing 3d6 with a ranged weapon that targets touch AC and has a x4 critical.
Maye your supposed to start with 14's across the board and just buff yourself into hitting anything? Perhaps the class is designed to start with very low mental stats, then you chuck all your money at them in the hopes of being able to cast your spells when they become available?
This would be a tough one with a lower point buy.
Although it doesn't say it outright, I'm looking for anything that would prevent favored weapon (unarmed strike) from benefitting from sacred weapon. Monk 2/Warpriest X?
This revision lets me use a Torch to do lots of damage, correct?Sure. Just pick up Weapon Focus for it and suddenly your Torch becomes a Sacred Weapon. Actually, I think Torches count as clubs. So WF: Club will do the job nicely.
Normally torches are improvised weapons but there are feats that turn it into a weapon for you.
Nice idea BTW. An half-orc warpriest of the fire god wielding a torch. Sounds cool. And I need a new pc for our playtest game ...
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There is nothing stopping you from using Unarmed Strike. I wouldn't even bother going into monk, first level feat improved unarmed strike, done. Unarmed strike are treated as weapons for virtually all purposes, except you need to get normally the expensive amulet of mighty fist, with warpriest...say goodbye to amulet of mighty fists.
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Overall I like the revisions, especially sacred weapon damage. I could see my players having fun with it.
I don't like that the warpriest gets his level as his BAB for his sacred weapon, however. It seems like the devs are creating a "Paladin for any alignment" class, and that doesn't sit right with me. They already get 6th level spells, why give them full BAB as well? I'm probably biased, as 3/4 of my characters are paladins, but that's beside the point. It just looks like the warpriest will become the new Paladin since they can be CG or CN or LN or some other some other easier alignment.
Whats a paladin?
but seriously I wouldn't worry, paladins still have smite evil over the warpreist, and they are less MAD.
Not to mention Paladins have much better saves, better hit points, etc. Couple this with the offensive and defensive benefits of smite evil means Paladins are still strong. Paladins are still far and away the best defensive fighting class.
Although it doesn't say it outright, I'm looking for anything that would prevent favored weapon (unarmed strike) from benefitting from sacred weapon. Monk 2/Warpriest X?
I don't think so. It seems you'd use whatever was better.
Why go Monk? :P Warpriest/Brawler. They both use Fighter as a base class but that just means you can't cross into Fighter.
Time for a silly question, assume that a player that was going to participate in Skull and Shackles wanted to play a Warpriest of Besmara, what Blessings would she grant? I ask since I saw no support for her as yet.
All the cool gods are missing. But they have most domains as blessings. So just look at the domains and choose from the blessings with the same names.
Why go Monk? :P Warpriest/Brawler. They both use Fighter as a base class but that just means you can't cross into Fighter.
warpreist is fighter, brawler is fighter. fighter can't multiclass with fighter. at what point does either of them stop being a fighter for them to multiclass?
Why go Monk? :P Warpriest/Brawler. They both use Fighter as a base class but that just means you can't cross into Fighter.warpreist is fighter, brawler is fighter. fighter can't multiclass with fighter. at what point does either of them stop being a fighter for them to multiclass?
Whoops, I had missed the note about not being able to cross-class into an alternate class that also includes the base or core class.
Why go Monk?
Bonus feat and Wis to AC.
Why go Monk?Bonus feat and Wis to AC.
I was corrected above - going Warpriest isn't an option since you can't cross-class into an alternate advanced class that uses the same base class (and both use Fighter).
That said, even if it was theoretically possible, you'd never get WIS to since you're almost assuredly going to be wearing armor.
Why go Monk?Bonus feat and Wis to AC.I was corrected above - going Warpriest isn't an option since you can't cross-class into an alternate advanced class that uses the same base class (and both use Fighter).
That said, even if it was theoretically possible, you'd never get WIS to since you're almost assuredly going to be wearing armor.
Unless I decided to be a Monk/Warpriest, ignore sacred armor, buy an amulet of mighty fists, and throw sacred weapon on top of it.
But I would have the best fist in the game, right? Is there some other way to get 18th-19th level monk-type damage with boatloads of enhancements and the ability to cast GMW on myself?
Hey i'm back, I lost my notes on the blood Magus (I'll rebuild the base of it)
But i've come up with something new.
Beast Bound Ranger
Primary Ranger
Secondary Magus
Divine spells
Spell combat with animal companion
Animal companion gains the ablities and mental stats of a black blade
Ability to use ranger combat style with gained armor (as magus with arcane spells)
Skirmisher ranger gains an arcane pool whereas normal ranger gains spell combat.
I'll do a full write-up in the next hour or so and get back to you on it.
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But I would have the best fist in the game, right? Is there some other way to get 18th-19th level monk-type damage with boatloads of enhancements and the ability to cast GMW on myself?
For a warpriest casting 6th cleric spells? probably about the same if not more than monk if you dedicate your feats to two weapon fighting.
Just by casting righteous might, you grow one size category larger so your fists will be doing 3d8 damage, then becoming 4d8 at level 20 and that's just one spell without counting all possible shenanigans.
Assuming that you are going to use your feats and bonus feats for the two weapon fighting line of feats.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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This thread is for discussing the REVISED version of the Warpriest. It should be used as a central location for feedback on the class as a whole. Discussion on specific topics and rules should receive their own individual thread in this forum.
Once you have had a chance to playtest the revised version, please be sure to update your survey results, which can be found HERE
Keep it civil and polite folks. Remember we are all here to make this book the best it can be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer**OFFICIAL UPATES**
The following updates apply to the warpriest.
- The warpriest gains proficiency with his deity's favored weapon. (Because the Lead Designer is a dummy who spaced on putting that in there... again)
1. Given that Favor is mechanically the same as Lay on Hands, with the addition of being able to use it to enhance your weapon, should it count as Lay on Hands for things like the Blessed Touch trait, which increases healing by channel, lay on hands, and cure spells by 1?
2. Should Fervor have a save associated with it? I could see it not having one, since you have to make a touch attack to use it offensively, but perhaps you meant for there to be a save?
3. I am REALLY loving this class now, and can't wait to try it out in PFS!
But I would have the best fist in the game, right? Is there some other way to get 18th-19th level monk-type damage with boatloads of enhancements and the ability to cast GMW on myself?
i could totes see a WP of irori dipping 3 in (MoMS?) monk for monastic legacy and massive base damage.
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I really like the addition of Fervor. The "Lay on Hands" aspect of it is much more thematically in line, and more useful, for the Warpriest. The swift action buff spells aspect gives the Warpriest what it was missing in a Divine equivalent to Spell Combat. I think Fervor is an excellent ability.
I also like that the Sacred Weapon doesn't have to be the Deity's favored weapon anymore. That opens up a lot more builds and evens things out so that the Warpriest class won't be dominated by worshippers of Gorum and Sarenrae. I could take or leave the scaling damage. It's interesting, but I think a longer duration on the enhancement bonus would be simpler. If it could be 1/2 level minutes/day or something like that, and be able to be changed each time it is used, it would be more useful. Full BAB with the Sacred weapon was a good change.
There are a lot of swift action abilities to compete with each other, but that's true for other classes (Inquisitor), and it keeps the Warpriest from being able to do everything at once.
I still wish there was a way to get some of the Paladin or Inquisitor spells onto the Warpriest spell list. Hero's Defiance would be nice. But, I'm ok with the Cleric list now that Fervor exists. Te main issue before was that there weren't enough actions for the Warpriest to effectively cast in combat without more swift spells. Fervor gives him that.
The Blessings still feel off. Unlike the Bloodrager's Bloodline abilities, the Blessing's aren't really self-buffs. Unlike Inquisitions, Blessings aren't different enough from Domains. It still feels like a Warpriest should just get 1 Domain (minus the Domain spells, like an Inquisitor).
Overall, though, I'm very happy with the changes. If it stays something close to this, my "Chosen Warrior" of Pharasma in PFS will end up retraining his level of Fighter and probably 1 level of Oracle into Warpriest and end up something like Black-blooded Oracle of Bones 4/Warpriest 8 eventually.
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And now a questions:
Fervor says, "As a swift action, a warpriest can expend one use of this ability to cast any one warpriest spell he has prepared." So does that mean if he wants to cast a Cure/Inflict Spell with fervor, he has to actually have it prepared, or can he spontaneously cast as part of Fervor as well?
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This looks kind of too good now. Specifically I'm thinking that the combination of effectively full BAB, swift action buff spells, and scaling weapon damage on top of bonus feats every three levels sorta edges the fighter out.
If I were introducing this to my game I'd ditch the good BAB part of sacred weapon and base fervor off of wisdom instead of charisma. The self buffing from fervor can take care of the average base attack bonus, especially if we relax the MAD on the class and let them focus a bit more on wisdom to get additional uses per day.
I was skeptical about this class at first, but my players and I absolutely love the revision. Several players are eager to take one for a test drive. Kudos to the design team on their work on the Warpriest.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Here's a question: can you take feats that affect your sacred weapon as if you had full BAB? For example: could a Warpriest of Nivi Rhombodazzle (who has the light hammer as a favored weapon) take the Bounding Hammer feat at 6th level, since his BAB with that hammer is effectively +6? I would assume not, and that you'd have to wait for 8th level, but it's a valid question, I think.
My only negative comment on this class is that Sacred Weapon seems to favor very specific builds and weapons. If all weapons do the same damage but keep their crit range, there's no reason not to use a weapon with an 18-20 crit range. In addition, it takes away some of the advantage of using a two-handed weapon. And seems to favor dual wielding, since why not have two weapons that do 2d8/18-20?
I'm not sure what to recommend to fix this, other than having 3 tables of damage (one for light weapons, one for one-handed, one for two-handed weapons). But even that doesn't totally fix the issue. It seems like a good idea on paper but in practice it causes a lot of concerns.
I dont agree that it causes concerns. This kind of rule has existed in the talented monk(something tells me the credit Owen Stephens has on the first page relates to the warpriest) which has been used extensively at my table. WHat it does is open up options. It means that is a warpriest wants to use his deities favored weapon for flavor reasons he isnt hampered by the fact that some deities weapons are strictly better then others. 2handed weapons are still better then one handed or light weapons because they add strength and a half and get more out of power attack, even when the smaller weapons catch up in damage die. Its also not untill 14th level that the damage die catches up with the great sword. By that point your damage his hardly based primarily on your weapon die anyway.
Not to mention two weapon fighting loses out on many of the abilities the class grants (as sacred weapon, and the blessing that affect weapons affect one weapon, not all weapons), so there is additional balancing factors besides those that counter two weapon fighting vs 2handed fighting.
The full BAB part AND fixed bonus weapon dice is a little over the top.
Fervor is a great mechanic but needs to be Wisdom based.
Focus on that.
I'd ditch the extra weapon dice bit since it opens up too much abuse with high crit weapons.
Ditch the extra damage dice and just roll with the Full BAB bit. That is enough.
Make the weapon enhancement power last one minute.
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As far as I read, the Sacred Weapon bonus does not alter the STR modifier to a weapon's damage. It causes the weapon, regardless of type, to deal flat weapon damage, but if you wield that weapon in two hands you'd still gain 1.5 times your STR mod in additional damage, would you not?
So there are still reasons to go THW over TWF.
I've read it quickly... and I can't help to think that Sacred Weapon should be ONLY for your deity's favored weapon, not any weapon in which you have Weapon Focus. Not all deities have melee favored weapons; some have ranged weapons too.
Also... what about double weapons, as a deity's quarterstaff? Do both ends have the damage boost and the enhancements or is it only one end? If so, kinda pointless since it's the same weapon, and not two separate ones.
WHat it does is open up options. It means that is a warpriest wants to use his deities favored weapon for flavor reasons he isnt hampered by the fact that some deities weapons are strictly better then others.Actually, I don't think it addresses that at all. Now all weapons do the same damage, but some will have different crit ranges. Therefore, a deity whose favored weapon is a scimitar is strictly better than a deity whose favored weapon is a klar. The only "options" it opens up is what you want your crit range to be, in which case why would you choose a 2x crit range over an 18-20 or 4x? It doesn't eliminate the issue of some weapons being better than others.
EDIT: I just picked two random weapons but you get the point.
It opens up options in the fact that certain weapons - someone earlier mentioned daggers, or shuriken - are now viable choices for primary weapons for the class. They may not be the best choices from a standpoint of DPR, but honestly I don't think the game should be designed around that factor. As long as they're effective, that's enough.
As to why I would choose a x2 crit weapon over an 18-20 x4? Because I feel that the x2 weapon fits the character's theme better or because it's the weapon of the god that I feel my character would wish to serve.
The game should not be balanced (or, I'd argue, even designed) around "what does the best DPR".
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But those types of things should still be taken into consideration, since it's essentially an open door to only pick weapons with great crit ranges (as several people in the thread have already pointed out).
I've seen it pointed it out, and to be honest, I disagree that it's a problem that should be addressed with an in-game mechanic. I think the best medium to address it is at the GM level. "Okay, Bill, I understand you want that 15-20 crit range, but you're playing a priest of a Barbarian tribe that normally uses clubs; why does that make sense?"
If you go so far as to standardize damage, crit modifier, and crit range, then in my mind you should just go one further step and have the Warpriest form a weapon out of pure faith 'force' and forget about having to choose a weapon at all, heh.
The game should not be balanced (or, I'd argue, even designed) around "what does the best DPR".Well yes, neither do I. I tend to eyeroll when people post down to specific DPR builds for various classes because there are too many variables to consider and I can't imagine playing a character based entirely around how much damage I do in a round. But those types of things should still be taken into consideration, since it's essentially an open door to only pick weapons with great crit ranges (as several people in the thread have already pointed out). In other words, I'm not a powergamer even though I know some people are into that. But I frown on mechanics that invite people to powergame.
Plus, if they really just wanted to give people free reign to roleplay any weapon choice they want, a better option would be to lock all weapons to a specific crit range too. Then they really wouldn't have to worry about the difference in weapons, and people could do as much roleplaying as they wanted without having to worry about the next person outperforming them.
If crit range is the chief concern that is workable, the talented monk has one table for weapons with the basic x2 crit and one table for other weapons. But I would imagine space is part of the reason we might not see that extra table.
Lead Designer
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Interesting discussion folks,
I think I am starting to settle on the power level of this class. It feels useful, but not overly so and the required ability scores helps to keep it in check. That said, I think there is a fair bit of tuning that needs to happen. I am concerned about the sacred weapon damage scaling and high crit weapons, but I think I want to see more playtest feedback before I move in any direction on that issue.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I LOVE IT. At least after a quick skim. Reading into it I am seeing a few things that powergamers are going to abuse but that will always happen.
Note: The character I built for my self test run was a warpriest of nethys wielding a quarterstaff like it was a greatsword. I like how it looks, this could be very fun. After seeing how it functioned my mind jumped to the quarterstaff master feat and now a class other than the magus who can get some mileage out of it.