Revised Warpriest Discussion


Class Discussion

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Interesting discussion folks,

I think I am starting to settle on the power level of this class. It feels useful, but not overly so and the required ability scores helps to keep it in check. That said, I think there is a fair bit of tuning that needs to happen. I am concerned about the sacred weapon damage scaling and high crit weapons, but I think I want to see more playtest feedback before I move in any direction on that issue.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Four needed ability scores (five, if you want to do fancy combat maneuvers with Combat Expertise and have anything approximating decent skill use) is crippling at a 15 point buy. You guys recognized that with the Paladin and made it the mechanically best package in the CRB, I hope the Warpriest gets a similar treatment.


cartmanbeck wrote:
Here's a question: can you take feats that affect your sacred weapon as if you had full BAB? For example: could a Warpriest of Nivi Rhombodazzle (who has the light hammer as a favored weapon) take the Bounding Hammer feat at 6th level, since his BAB with that hammer is effectively +6? I would assume not, and that you'd have to wait for 8th level, but it's a valid question, I think.

Sacred Weapon:

Sacred Weapon (Su): Weapons wielded by a warpriest
are charged with the power of his faith. In addition to the
favored weapon of his deity, the warpriest can designate
a weapon as a sacred weapon by selecting that weapon
with the Weapon Focus feat (if he has multiple Weapon
Focus feats, this ability applies to all of them). Whenever
the warpriest is wielding a sacred weapon, he treats his
warpriest level as his base attack bonus for attacks made
with that weapon,
stacking with any base attack bonus
from other classes or racial Hit Dice.

I would say based on the bolded text your BAB for the Sacred Weapon would qualify for XYZ feat, even if other weapons did not. You could use that Feat for Sacred Weapons, but not for others.

Power Attack is a terrific example. At first level you could take Power attack for your Sacred Weapon, but it would not work for other weapons until you reached 2nd lvl.

Shadow Lodge

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my issue with, and my issue wit all alignment based choices..., is that true neutral characters get shafted with sacred weapon.

"In addition, if the warpriest is
chaotic, he can add anarchic and vicious. If he is evil, he
can add mighty cleaving and unholy. If he is good, he can
add holy and merciful. If he is lawful, he can add axiomatic
and ghost touch."

where is the "if your character worships a neutral god and has a true neutral alignment then you get these choices"?

i think you should give True Neutral (NN)characters something to boot weapon properties, otherwise ill play my NN warpriest of Gozreh and pout the entire time.

i think grey flame, Mimetic, Glorious, life surging, or spell stealing would be good choices for this type of alignment.

Shadow Lodge

TN Warpriests have access to all Cleric spells and are not affected by them to the full extent. Honestly, that's powerful enough.

Shadow Lodge

DM Beckett wrote:
TN Warpriests have access to all Cleric spells and are not affected by them to the full extent. Honestly, that's powerful enough.

not even close to a free ghost touch/ holy/ unholy

DM Beckett wrote:

The thing is, it really doesn't do anything to make certain weapon viable. All the ones that the class has issues with are still issues. All this does is make lower DPR weapon better. Essentially doing exactly what you are saying you don't want, and helping to make it more important to choose a weapon for DPR and making the system designed around that. So if you don't want it to be balanced around DPR, but rather what makes sense, then not changing a weapon's base damage is the way to go.

Now, if that where to be the way things work, it should not be for this class. That should probably be a Fighter-Only ability, and not one that crossed over to the Warpriest.

they could add in a quick:

"all weapons modified by this ability function on a 19-20 x2 crit range"

that way you can fluff your character how you want and not care about dpr increases? i mean the actual crit range/modifier is irrelevent to the point im making, it could be x4 or even x2 for all i care.

Shadow Lodge

Xaratherus wrote:

It opens up options in the fact that certain weapons - someone earlier mentioned daggers, or shuriken - are now viable choices for primary weapons for the class. They may not be the best choices from a standpoint of DPR, but honestly I don't think the game should be designed around that factor. As long as they're effective, that's enough.

As to why I would choose a x2 crit weapon over an 18-20 x4? Because I feel that the x2 weapon fits the character's theme better or because it's the weapon of the god that I feel my character would wish to serve.

The game should not be balanced (or, I'd argue, even designed) around "what does the best DPR".

The thing is, it really doesn't do anything to make certain weapon viable. All the ones that the class has issues with are still issues. All this does is make lower DPR weapon better. Essentially doing exactly what you are saying you don't want, and helping to make it more important to choose a weapon for DPR and making the system designed around that. So if you don't want it to be balanced around DPR, but rather what makes sense, then not changing a weapon's base damage is the way to go.

Now, if that where to be the way things work, it should not be for this class. That should probably be a Fighter-Only ability, and not one that crossed over to the Warpriest.


DM Beckett wrote:
Xaratherus wrote:

It opens up options in the fact that certain weapons - someone earlier mentioned daggers, or shuriken - are now viable choices for primary weapons for the class. They may not be the best choices from a standpoint of DPR, but honestly I don't think the game should be designed around that factor. As long as they're effective, that's enough.

As to why I would choose a x2 crit weapon over an 18-20 x4? Because I feel that the x2 weapon fits the character's theme better or because it's the weapon of the god that I feel my character would wish to serve.

The game should not be balanced (or, I'd argue, even designed) around "what does the best DPR".

The thing is, it really doesn't do anything to make certain weapon viable. All the ones that the class has issues with are still issues. All this does is make lower DPR weapon better. Essentially doing exactly what you are saying you don't want, and helping to make it more important to choose a weapon for DPR and making the system designed around that. So if you don't want it to be balanced around DPR, but rather what makes sense, then not changing a weapon's base damage is the way to go.

Now, if that where to be the way things work, it should not be for this class. That should probably be a Fighter-Only ability, and not one that crossed over to the Warpriest.

Let me clarify what I mean by "making certain weapons viable":

If I wanted to play a Cleric of Pharasma right now, who wielded Her favored weapon as a sign of his obedience, then my Cleric isn't terribly viable in combat. So I'm stuck choosing between combat viability and sticking to role-playing concept. I'd like to say that I will always choose RP concept over viability in combat, but I've had far too many characters die from doing that.

Sacred Weapon makes that choice thematically appropriate to my concept and combat-viable. It's not going for top optimization but it does make certain that I'm not gimping my character in what is, let's face it, a combat-centric system.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2009 Top 4

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The following is purely my thoughts after having observed some warpriest character creation. No playtest data here yet, just musings.

As a thought experiment, what if the warpriest didn't need to choose a deity at all? Strip away the deity and make the warpriest, like a druid, a follower of a philosophy. Grant it a suite of war-themed domains to pick from, similar to how a druid can choose from nature-based domains, or even grant access to inquisitions (which feel like a very strong thematic fit).

Removing the deity gets rid of the whole favored weapon debate. Grant proficiency in martial weapons, and one weapon group (or single weapon type) becomes "favored" for you. Your choice. Sacred Weapon gets to remain untouched and applies to whatever you've set as "favored."

Removing the deity removes the complexity of managing additional pseudo domains whose powers kind-of, sort-of look like their parent domain powers, but are a bit weaker.

Removing the deity opens up an interesting design space that is not really being delivered elsewhere: A purely philosophy-based divine caster that's not a druid. Place warpriests in the game world as the itinerant protectors of relics and holy sites, or as small fraternal brotherhoods that get hired to add divine muscle to a nation's conflicts. Divine Mercenaries that worship at the altar of war itself!

It feels to me that forcing the warpriest into all of the established domains, deities, favored weapons, etc. is a square peg / round hole problem, and creates something that is already well-represented by clerics, inquisitors, and oracles.

Now to actually build one and see how the revisions shake out.

Shadow Lodge

I wouldn't mind that at all.

Shadow Lodge

Xaratherus wrote:


Let me clarify what I mean by "making certain weapons viable":

If I wanted to play a Cleric of Pharasma right now, who wielded Her favored weapon as a sign of his obedience, then my Cleric isn't terribly viable in combat. So I'm stuck choosing between combat viability and sticking to role-playing concept. I'd like to say that I will always choose RP concept over viability in combat, but I've had far too many characters die from doing that.

Sacred Weapon makes that choice thematically appropriate to my concept and combat-viable. It's not going for top optimization but it does make certain that I'm not gimping my character in what is,...

just remember that how you invision your character does not need to corrispond to whats on the paper. even when i play pfs i will use something like a great sword, and call it a dagger if im playing a rogue. mechanically its a great sword, but in my RP its a big ass dagger, and i dont give a squirt of piss if its "allowed in PFS" or not

but back on topic, i would like to see, and i know this will take some time, a few sample feats that would be usable in conjunction with each class, kind of like what you did for the swash buckler. i would LOVE a feat that let you burn 2 uses of your ferver to apply 2 blessings on your weapons (one per weapon).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Interesting discussion folks,

I think I am starting to settle on the power level of this class. It feels useful, but not overly so and the required ability scores helps to keep it in check. That said, I think there is a fair bit of tuning that needs to happen. I am concerned about the sacred weapon damage scaling and high crit weapons, but I think I want to see more playtest feedback before I move in any direction on that issue.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

I agree with you, MADness does definitely limit power. The WARpriest does need four ability scores (Str, Wis, Cha, & of course Con) to use its different class features.

Sinking Str, Wis, or Cha really limits the WARpriest because each ability score has good class features tied to it. Strength ties to Sacred Weapon/combat ability. Wisdom ties to spells. Charisma ties to fervor and channeling.

Is the MADness too much? I am not sure but the class definitely has strengths and weaknesses now. I also really like the Blessings and Sacred weapon flavor as well.


I think the sacred weapon damage scaling can be fixed by just not having it scale. It's a flat d6 minimum. If you're 5th level or above, it gives you a 1d8 with a one-handed weapon and 2d6 with a two-handed weapon (double weapons are treated as light weapons for this purpose). Someone willing to commit to a scimitar, say, for the first few levels might enjoy some minor benefits. It would also be nice not to edge out the (minor) utility of the bastard sword and war axe.

Silver Crusade

Raith Shadar wrote:

That being said, this is going to be one tough class.

With the Fervor changes, they can now buff with Divine Power and Righteous Might in a single round while using a weapon that does great base damage.

My player started with an 18 strength.

Let's see what that is like around lvl 16 with a Greatsword.

18 +4 ability boosts from level +4 enhancement belt = 26 base strength

Divine Might:+5 luck bonus attack/damage

Righteous Might +4 size bonus str

Str: 30 +15 damage two-handed
Power Attack Full BAB: -5/+15 damage two-handed
+5 weapon with sacred weapon
+5 luck

Attack: +16 Full bab sacred weapon +10 str -5 PA +5 luck +5 enhancement = +31 attack
+40 damage per swing
5 attacks per round with full BAB and Divine Power
Bonuses offset Power Attack penalty

I think this will probably turn out to be the second best melee class in the game behind the Invulnerable Rager Come and Get Me Barbarian. This will be one more replacement class for the boring fighter that completely outclasses the fighter. Fighters are not at all competitive with classes like War Priest, Inquisitor, Ranger, Paladin, and Barbarian. War Priest will fall into the damage dealing/melee class area.

Conceptually I like this class. I think the abilities for the most part fit. I like that the designed decided to allow any weapon. Deities would want their militant arm to be well armed and capable in battle.

It might have a bit too many abilities. Hopefully that will be figured out during playtesting.

Okay, first of all they can't, at least not buff both in one round and still attack that round.

Second, let's actually compare to fighter at the same level.

18 + 4 level + 4 belt = 26 Str.

Weapon Training: +4 bonus to attack and damage.

Weapon Focus/Specialization/Greater Focus/Greater Specialization: +2 attack, +4 damage.

Str 26: +12 two-handed damage.
Power Attack: -5 attack +15 damage two-handed
+5 weapon with WBL (that's what that massive loot pile is for, after all).
+8 from weapon training and feats.

Attack: +16 BAB +8 Str -5 PA +4 Weapon Training +2 feats +5 WBL = +30 attack.
+40 damage per swing.

Off by a single point to-hit, equivalent damage. And here's the kicker: He's doing it all day, every day. The warpriest is doing it for a minute and a half, tops. A warpriest running through Rise of the Runelords would be very sad indeed by the time he was halfway through the first encounter of Fortress of the Stone Giants, for instance, and in a normal adventuring day with several encounters, he's not going to have enough copies of his buff spells for all of them even if he squeezes Sacred Weapon out over the whole day by acing all the encounters in three or four rounds. The class has some punch to it, I won't deny that, but the fighter can equal his buffed-out melee damage without even trying too hard. It's not all that overtuned.

Sovereign Court

STR Ranger wrote:

The full BAB part AND fixed bonus weapon dice is a little over the top.

Fervor is a great mechanic but needs to be Wisdom based.
Focus on that.

I'd ditch the extra weapon dice bit since it opens up too much abuse with high crit weapons.

Ditch the extra damage dice and just roll with the Full BAB bit. That is enough.

Make the weapon enhancement power last one minute.

I don't read it as full BAB, though. Your BAB is 3/4 for feats and iterative attacks. Your attack bonus is as if you had full BAB. It's certainly way better than 3/4 BAB but it is not Full BAB.

Silver Crusade

DM Beckett wrote:
redliska wrote:
The capstone is still kinda meh.

Yah, it's a real downgrade from the Cleric's capstone. I wish they would have gone more that route. I mean at 20th, you should be amazing.

:)

You mean the five 9th level spells per day capstone? That capstone? Because bud, that's a lot better than Aspect of War. :p


I believe I previously suggested allowing the Domains correllated to the Blessings to grant Domain Spells or allow Spontaneous Casting of the Domain Spells. That still sounds like a good change to me, but I would extend the concept further to the Channeling.

The whole point of the (weak) Channeling is to retain synergy/compatability with Cleric stuff, right? So why shouldn't the Domain/Blessing correlation allow DOMAIN CHANNELING? Those allow some unique effects besides just the base damage/heal dice of the (weakened) Channel and enhance the God/Domain specific flavor of each individual Warpriest.

I also feel like changing the casting stat to CHA (still prepared) is justifiable, it matches Paladin a bit more, and things like Fervor and other abilities definitely feel Paladin-esque. It distinguishes more vs. Cleric (and having lower WIS without Paladin's CHA->Saves also means your Saves will not be as hot as either Cleric or Paladin, although still 2 good saves: fort/will). It would incidentally boost the DC on Channels (albeit their dice is lower than Cleric generally, and these wouldn't be 'full caster DCs' really with the more martial focus). I feel it just works with the flavor of the class well.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Sacred Weapon wrote:
These bonuses only apply while the warpriest is holding the weapon, and end immediately if the weapon is sheathed or leaves the warpriest’s possession.

Am I correct in thinking that Sacred Weapon doesn't work well with thrown weapons?

Shadow Lodge

RtrnofdMax wrote:
STR Ranger wrote:

The full BAB part AND fixed bonus weapon dice is a little over the top.

Fervor is a great mechanic but needs to be Wisdom based.
Focus on that.

I'd ditch the extra weapon dice bit since it opens up too much abuse with high crit weapons.

Ditch the extra damage dice and just roll with the Full BAB bit. That is enough.

Make the weapon enhancement power last one minute.

I don't read it as full BAB, though. Your BAB is 3/4 for feats and iterative attacks. Your attack bonus is as if you had full BAB. It's certainly way better than 3/4 BAB but it is not Full BAB.

it functions in the exact same way as flurry of blows, once you use that weapon it is treated as a full bab class. But like you said you only have a true 3/4th bab, but are augmented with aditional bonus feats that off set that every 3 levels. basically at 9th level you have a bab of 6 and can get 2 +6 bab feats which brings you back into a close feat progression with a barbarian.


raidou wrote:

The following is purely my thoughts after having observed some warpriest character creation. No playtest data here yet, just musings.

As a thought experiment, what if the warpriest didn't need to choose a deity at all? Strip away the deity and make the warpriest, like a druid, a follower of a philosophy. Grant it a suite of war-themed domains to pick from, similar to how a druid can choose from nature-based domains, or even grant access to inquisitions (which feel like a very strong thematic fit).

Removing the deity gets rid of the whole favored weapon debate. Grant proficiency in martial weapons, and one weapon group (or single weapon type) becomes "favored" for you. Your choice. Sacred Weapon gets to remain untouched and applies to whatever you've set as "favored."

Removing the deity removes the complexity of managing additional pseudo domains whose powers kind-of, sort-of look like their parent domain powers, but are a bit weaker.

Removing the deity opens up an interesting design space that is not really being delivered elsewhere: A purely philosophy-based divine caster that's not a druid. Place warpriests in the game world as the itinerant protectors of relics and holy sites, or as small fraternal brotherhoods that get hired to add divine muscle to a nation's conflicts. Divine Mercenaries that worship at the altar of war itself!

It feels to me that forcing the warpriest into all of the established domains, deities, favored weapons, etc. is a square peg / round hole problem, and creates something that is already well-represented by clerics, inquisitors, and oracles.

Now to actually build one and see how the revisions shake out.

+1

Not much to say other than this is a very well reasoned argument, and I agree with your premises completely.


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Can I take weapon focus on some type of improvised weapons?

Can I wield flowerpots at full BAB with enchantment bonuses and hitting as hard as a greatsword?

I want to know how far I can push this class. for reasons

Silver Crusade

Warpriests still not allowed fighter feats? Or did i miss it?


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Lyee wrote:

Can I take weapon focus on some type of improvised weapons?

Can I wield flowerpots at full BAB with enchantment bonuses and hitting as hard as a greatsword?

I want to know how far I can push this class. for reasons

If you ever wanted to play a cleric who was particularly good at siege weapons, I think you just found your guy. :)

Shadow Lodge

Combat Reflexes, Whip, and Whip Master seems like a good start. Improved Trip/Disarm from there.


DM Beckett wrote:
Combat Reflexes, Whip, and Whip Master seems like a good start. Improved Trip/Disarm from there.

Reminder, you need 13 int for Improved combat maneuver feats.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Combat Reflexes, Whip, and Whip Master seems like a good start. Improved Trip/Disarm from there.
Reminder, you need 13 int for Improved combat maneuver feats.

Yeah... talk about an ugly ability spread :)


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RJGrady wrote:
Lyee wrote:

Can I take weapon focus on some type of improvised weapons?

Can I wield flowerpots at full BAB with enchantment bonuses and hitting as hard as a greatsword?

I want to know how far I can push this class. for reasons

If you ever wanted to play a cleric who was particularly good at siege weapons, I think you just found your guy. :)

A god in my setting actually has catapult as a favoured weapon.

Shadow Lodge

Insain Dragoon wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Combat Reflexes, Whip, and Whip Master seems like a good start. Improved Trip/Disarm from there.
Reminder, you need 13 int for Improved combat maneuver feats.

Sorry, was there pre-established stats I missed?

Shadow Lodge

Renegade Paladin wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
redliska wrote:
The capstone is still kinda meh.

Yah, it's a real downgrade from the Cleric's capstone. I wish they would have gone more that route. I mean at 20th, you should be amazing.

:)

You mean the five 9th level spells per day capstone? That capstone? Because bud, that's a lot better than Aspect of War. :p

No, I mean the one they DON'T get at all.


DM Beckett wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Combat Reflexes, Whip, and Whip Master seems like a good start. Improved Trip/Disarm from there.
Reminder, you need 13 int for Improved combat maneuver feats.
Sorry, was there pre-established stats I missed?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-trip-combat---final

Needs 13 int and Combat expertise. Improved Disarm also needs combat expertise, which also require 13 int.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/combat-expertise-combat

Dark Archive

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It's too powerful.

It's better than the Paladin. This ain't right.

It has 6th level spells so it will always be better than the Paladin in most ways, but don't make it better at fighting than us good guys.

A Warpriest of Iomedae is probably a better warrior than a Paladin of Iomadae. This isn't right.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
Combat Reflexes, Whip, and Whip Master seems like a good start. Improved Trip/Disarm from there.
Reminder, you need 13 int for Improved combat maneuver feats.
Sorry, was there pre-established stats I missed?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-trip-combat---final

Needs 13 int and Combat expertise. Improved Disarm also needs combat expertise, which also require 13 int.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/combat-expertise-combat

He's referring to pre-established stats of the character used for comparison.

The rules fully allow for 13 INT warpriests, and it's plausible that some will in fact have that.
(actually 11 starting INT is all that is needed to trivially qualify for 13 INT via a cheap +2 INT enhancement bonus)
I'm pretty sure anybody posting in this thread can understand that Imp Trip has an INT pre-req, no need to drag that subject thru the mud.


Captain K. wrote:
It's better than the Paladin. This ain't right.

Feature, not bug.


Re: Sacred Weapon modified/scaling weapon damage dice, I think it's best to just not go there: if you want big weapon damage, use a big damage weapon. Allowing any weapon that you have Weapon Focus in to qualify for the other "Sacred Weapon" bonuses means anybody (any God w/ any Favored Weapon) can choose a high damage weapon to work with "Sacred Weapon" if they so choose. Obviously worshippers of less martial gods with less martial favored weapons (that work with Sacred Weapon for free) will be one step further away from martial awesomeness, but it's just one Feat to catch up and they presumably make up for it with more exotic Blessings. If that disparity was really a problem, don't make Sacred Weapon work with the Favored Weapon automatically, just give them one free choice Weapon Focus and have it work with that, they can choose to have it match the Deity Favored Weapon or not.

Although to send home the point about less-martial Deity Domains, I think Domain Spells should be accessable to Warpriests, as well as the Domain Channeling option, both of those really help the less-martial focused Gods/Domains bring something to the table IMHO. (as well as emphasizing the different aspects of more martial deities)

Shadow Lodge

Yes, I know?

Are we using a pre-stated Warpriest or something?

If not,
Human Warpriest 1
12 Str, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 10 (don't like neg stats, but you can easily dump either Str or Cha for more elsewhere.)

Feats: Weapon Finesse and Combat Reflexes. Weapon focus: Whip (B)
@3rd: Combat Expertise and Whip Mastery (B)

I'd probably go for Trip before Disarm, and start looking for a Spell Storing or Conductive whip asap. Rune or Animal might be an interesting Blessing.


Dispari Scuro wrote:

My only negative comment on this class is that Sacred Weapon seems to favor very specific builds and weapons. If all weapons do the same damage but keep their crit range, there's no reason not to use a weapon with an 18-20 crit range. In addition, it takes away some of the advantage of using a two-handed weapon. And seems to favor dual wielding, since why not have two weapons that do 2d8/18-20?

I'm not sure what to recommend to fix this, other than having 3 tables of damage (one for light weapons, one for one-handed, one for two-handed weapons). But even that doesn't totally fix the issue. It seems like a good idea on paper but in practice it causes a lot of concerns.

2hands still gets a massive bonus from power attack and strength (you have lots of strength/size buffs).

Means if you use a shield not so hampered. Encouraging shield use for a bit of reality is long overdue.

It actually encourages other weapon styles. Just as written only a small array of heathen weapons.
Daggers included as the riverrat trait adds +1 to damage.

The Exchange

Captain K. wrote:

It's too powerful.

It's better than the Paladin. This ain't right.

It has 6th level spells so it will always be better than the Paladin in most ways, but don't make it better at fighting than us good guys.

A Warpriest of Iomedae is probably a better warrior than a Paladin of Iomadae. This isn't right.

It doesn't get smite.

You just can't beat smite.


teribithia9 wrote:
Captain K. wrote:

It's too powerful.

It's better than the Paladin. This ain't right.

It has 6th level spells so it will always be better than the Paladin in most ways, but don't make it better at fighting than us good guys.

A Warpriest of Iomedae is probably a better warrior than a Paladin of Iomadae. This isn't right.

It doesn't get smite.

You just can't beat smite.

You can beat it quite easily against anything that isn't evil.


If it goes ahead that any random weapon you take weapon focus is 'sacred' ...

Then how this interacts with improvised weapon combat and race feats should be clarified. As amusing as torch and flower pot wielders are it could get silly. Though wielding a hairpin or a holy symbol would have its RP moments.

Also thrown weapons should be clarified. 'Wielded' is a problematic term.
WarPriests of Desna and others with thrown weapons shouldn't be so hampered even if others might allocate a weapon focus and become shuriken throwing machines (not a bad exploit as their free to draw so can still wield/hold/pose/threaten with a weapon).


That's why Sacred Weapon should apply solely to the deity's favored weapon.


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ChainsawSam wrote:
teribithia9 wrote:
Captain K. wrote:

It's too powerful.

It's better than the Paladin. This ain't right.

It has 6th level spells so it will always be better than the Paladin in most ways, but don't make it better at fighting than us good guys.

A Warpriest of Iomedae is probably a better warrior than a Paladin of Iomadae. This isn't right.

It doesn't get smite.

You just can't beat smite.
You can beat it quite easily against anything that isn't evil.

That's called a "variable." It's hard to say that warpriest is "better" than paladin because it depends on the circumstances and a person's preferences. For one person, no matter what advantages you point out a wizard has over a sorcerer, a sorcerer is simply going to be "better" for them because they don't like the mechanics of prepared spells.

There are a lot of reasons this class isn't necessarily better than paladin: Less HD, weaker saves, weaker heals, less durability overall, lots of class features that rely on limited pool, no animal companion with 6 int and DR... but it depends on if those are things you like. The question is, "better at what?"

Contributor

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Captain K. wrote:

It's too powerful.

It's better than the Paladin. This ain't right.

It has 6th level spells so it will always be better than the Paladin in most ways, but don't make it better at fighting than us good guys.

A Warpriest of Iomedae is probably a better warrior than a Paladin of Iomadae. This isn't right.

Let's see some numbers to back that up.

In my character crafting, the Warpriest is better offensively, but the paladin beats the warpriest into the dirt defensively and in terms of its healing power. Ferver can't match up to the potency of Lay on Hands and the Warpriest has nothing on Divine Grace or any of the paladin's powerful aura abilities.

Gently put, the Warpriest is selfish while the Paladin is a team player. Not to mention that some of the paladin-specific spells are absolutely incredible.


magnuskn wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Interesting discussion folks,

I think I am starting to settle on the power level of this class. It feels useful, but not overly so and the required ability scores helps to keep it in check. That said, I think there is a fair bit of tuning that needs to happen. I am concerned about the sacred weapon damage scaling and high crit weapons, but I think I want to see more playtest feedback before I move in any direction on that issue.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Four needed ability scores (five, if you want to do fancy combat maneuvers with Combat Expertise and have anything approximating decent skill use) is crippling at a 15 point buy. You guys recognized that with the Paladin and made it the mechanically best package in the CRB, I hope the Warpriest gets a similar treatment.

This.

You know that requiring 4 ability scores is too much. And we know that you know. As magnuskn says, it's the entire reason you swapped the Paladin to Cha-casting.
Don't go back down that dark road. :(


ChainsawSam wrote:
teribithia9 wrote:
Captain K. wrote:

It's too powerful.

It's better than the Paladin. This ain't right.

It has 6th level spells so it will always be better than the Paladin in most ways, but don't make it better at fighting than us good guys.

A Warpriest of Iomedae is probably a better warrior than a Paladin of Iomadae. This isn't right.

It doesn't get smite.

You just can't beat smite.
You can beat it quite easily against anything that isn't evil.

If its acceptable for everyone else to beat the paladin when it isn't fighting evil, so too is it acceptable for the Warpriest to be better than the paladin when they're not fighting evil.

The Paladin has sexier defenses.

Silver Crusade

Did jason rule out that warpriests cannot use fighter feats? There was some talk in first version. If warpriests can't use them then why not? This class should be able to use them since it's a hybrid fighter.


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Quote:

Each blessing grants a minor power at 1st level and a

major power at 10th level. A warpriest can call upon the
power of his blessings a number of times per day (in
any combination) equal to 3 + 1/2 his warpriest level (to
a maximum of 13 times per day at 20th level). Each time
he calls upon a blessing, it counts against his daily limit.

That could be clearer if it was reorganized a bit. I would refer to 'powerS (plural) of his blessings' if actually referring to the 4 powers gained from 2 blessings... it isn't quite clear that there is a unified pool that all powers draw from equally.

sugggestion-> Each blessing grants a minor power at 1st level and a major power at 10th level. THOSE POWERS MAY BE USED three times per day (in any combination of blessings and powers), with one additional usage per 2 warpriest levels (to a maximum of 13 times per day at 20th level).

The terminology could be streamlined a bit if rather than having BlessingX->Power->MajorPower, it was expressed as MinorBlessingofX, MajorBlessingofX. That way references to 'using a Blessing' are more straightforward.

Quote:

Charming Presence (minor): At 1st level, as a standard

action you can touch an ally to grant an entrancing
blessing. For 1 minute, the ally becomes mesmerizing
to her opponents, either out of admiration or fear. This
functions as sanctuary, except if the ally attacks, it only
breaks this effect with respect to that opponent. This is a
mind-affecting effect.

That's also replicated by the Glory power. That seems pretty powerful with fully scaling DC AND lasting a full minute and only ending for a given opponent when you attack that opponent. (Dominance Aura is pretty strong as well)

Quote:

Enshrouding Darkness (minor): At 1st level, as a

standard action you can touch an ally to bestow a darkness
blessing. For 1 minute, the ally becomes enshrouded
in shadows while in combat, granting it concealment.
Creatures normally able to see in supernatural darkness
ignore this concealment
So this doesn't do anything if there already is normal Dim Lighting or other Miss Chance like Fog? Would it give 20% Miss Chance for enemies with Low Light Vision though? This feels like it could be stronger.
Quote:

Darkened Vision (major): At 10th level, you may attempt

a melee touch attack against an opponent; if you succeed,
the target is blinded as blindness/deafnessfor 1 minute.

No Save? I feel like something like Darkvision/Supernatural Darkvision might be useful and less (No Save) or Suck.

Quote:

Death’s Touch (major): At 10th level, you may attempt

a melee touch attack against an opponent; if you succeed,
the target gains 1 temporary negative level for 1 minute.
Alternatively, you may activate this ability as a swift action
when you hit an opponent with a melee attack. These
temporary negative levels stack. You don’t gain any benef it
(such as temporary hit points) from these negative levels

DOes 'melee attack' also apply to touch attacks including touch spells? I think as written it's just "it's own touch attack", but IMHO it should allow that "tacking on" to another touch spell as a "rider", otherwise this whole blessing (including 1st ability) is rather weak, and even allowing that it feels weak.

Earth(Acid)/Fire/Water(Ice)/Weather(Electric) vs Good/Evil/Law/Chaos weapon boosts:
I dont' see why these only get 1d4 while Good/Evil get 1d6. Functionally, the alignment limitation or target isn't really that imposing: PCs will usually be fighting appropriate aligned targets, and likewise for NPCs with these blessings. ELemntal resistances cut across things, but in fact that becomes extremely common at high levels, such that 1d4 elemental damage may be meaningless.

Armor of Earth DR1 just seems ridiculously weak for a 'Major' Power. It's not quite the same, but Haunted Fey aspect gives DR1/cold iron that is spammable as a Cantrip non stop, DR1/- is better but not that much. This should scale, or also grant Fortification or just an Armor Bonus.

In comparision, Healing Blessing grants Fast Healing 3 for 1 minute (also Major Power). Of cours, you may be taking more than 1 (or 3) attacks per round, but Fast Healing continues working for 1 minute when you're not getting attacked, when you're unconscious and bleeding out, etc.

Quote:

Blessed Magic (major): At 10th level, as a standard

action you may cast a prepared warpriest attack spell
without expending its spell slot.

What is an 'attack spell'? NOt sure if I've ever seen that terminology used before. DOes it need an attack roll? Any spell that would break invisibility?

Quote:

Lead By Example (major): At 10th level, as a swift

action you can inspire your allies to follow your lead. If
you take an action on your turn, all allies within 30 feet
who take the same action on their next turn gain a +4
morale bonus on the attack roll, skill check, ability check,
or saving throw to complete that action.

What if multiple rolls/checks are needed to complete an action? (I assume that it doesn't necessarily have to be an 'action' per se, if you decide to use it for a Saving Throw that doesn't actually use an action to make) Perhaps it's better to phrae it as 'making a check/roll' and then it automatically only applies to that single check/roll...?

Quote:

(PLANT) Battle Companion (major): At 10th level, as a standard

action you can summon a battle companion. This ability
functions as summon nature’s allyIV, with a duration of
1 minute. This ability can only summon one animal,
regardless of the list used, and the creature’s type changes
to plant instead of animal.

I really think this should summon real plant creatures, not a list of animals retyped as plants. Maybe use animated objects as low level plants. If getting a suitable list is too difficult, I'm some other ability could be substituted that doesn't have that problem. If my character' schtick is summoning plants to fight for me, I want real plant monsters to fight for me, not re-skinned animals that you choose for the exact same reasons you choose the normal animal version (e.g. Dinosaur Multi-Attackers etc).

Quote:

Gentle Rest (minor): At 1st level, with a successful melee

touch attack, you can f ill a living creature with lethargy,
causing it to become staggered for 1 round. If the target
is already staggered, it falls asleep for 1 round instead.
An undead creature touched is staggered for a number of
rounds equal to your Wisdom bonus (minimum 1).

So there is a daily limit (usages/day), but no limit per round right? Meaning if you are Full Attacking with a multi-charge Touch Spell (or also making AoO's with it) you can go from nothing to staggered to sleeping in 1 round? I'm not sure of the wording here, "with a successful melee touch attack" could allow it as a rider on touch attacks, or could mean this is it's own unique touch attack (as a Standard Action per the norm for Su abilities?) Even as "it's own" Su action, I'm not clear if you can "pre-charge up" a charge to use as AoO and then use a 2nd usage next round while the 1st is still active, or if your first usage MISSES and you want to hold the charge for an AoO...?

Quote:

(Sun)Blinding Strike (minor): At 1st level, as a melee

touch attack, you can create a f lash of sunlight at your
opponent’s eyes. If it fails a Ref lex saving throw, it is
blinded for 1 round; otherwise, it’s dazzled for 1 round.
This is a light effect. Creatures with light blindness or
light sensitivity take a –4 penalty on this saving throw.
Sightless creatures are unaffected by this ability

So this has a Save, but Darkness Touch Blindness and Death Touch Negative Level and Luck Unlucky Presence and Repose Gentle Rest Touch have no Save?

Weather: I woudl rather see the Electric Weapon dropped, the Major power toned down a bit and become the Minor, and have soething like Mist Sight as Major, at least with a limited range like 15' or 30' (and retaining 20% Miss Chance) that seems OK.


Danubus wrote:
Did jason rule out that warpriests cannot use fighter feats? There was some talk in first version. If warpriests can't use them then why not? This class should be able to use them since it's a hybrid fighter.

Well, of the new classes that are fighters (warpriest, swashbuckler, brawler), swashbuckler only get a bonus feat every 4 levels, while the other two get one every 3 levels. Warpriest already has an ability to enhance its damage, plus it has blessings that can do that, and it has lots of spells that can do that, and it ups its base damage quite a bit. Even as a fan of the warpriest, I wouldn't say NO to fighter feats, but I don't think it NEEDS them either.

Grand Lodge

do i seem to be the only one say way hold up here this class is now too powerful. 6th level spells full base attack bonus and swift action Buffs along with rounds per day bonuses to your weapon of choice...

that is too much no fighter could compete with that ever.


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The Fighter can't compete with 90% of the classes in the game. Don't make the Fighter drag down the Warpriest like the Rogue is doing to the Investigator.


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Humphry B ManWitch wrote:

do i seem to be the only one say way hold up here this class is now too powerful. 6th level spells full base attack bonus and swift action Buffs along with rounds per day bonuses to your weapon of choice...

that is too much no fighter could compete with that ever.

I mentioned something along those lines.

Not "OMG WAY TOO POWERFUL" but I think the class does need to be tuned down a notch.

More importantly I think the class actually needs streamlined. Awful lot of class features that don't necessarily have anything to do with one another. Could probably do with just ditching channel altogether.

Silver Crusade

DM Beckett wrote:
Renegade Paladin wrote:
DM Beckett wrote:
redliska wrote:
The capstone is still kinda meh.

Yah, it's a real downgrade from the Cleric's capstone. I wish they would have gone more that route. I mean at 20th, you should be amazing.

:)

You mean the five 9th level spells per day capstone? That capstone? Because bud, that's a lot better than Aspect of War. :p
No, I mean the one they DON'T get at all.

Yes, I grasp. Feature, not bug. 9th level spells are all the capstone they, or any of the other full casting classes, need.

Humphry B ManWitch wrote:

do i seem to be the only one say way hold up here this class is now too powerful. 6th level spells full base attack bonus and swift action Buffs along with rounds per day bonuses to your weapon of choice...

that is too much no fighter could compete with that ever.

Yeah, it actually can. The math is upthread. Weapon Training and the fighter-only feats keep up nicely in damage with divine power and righteous might, and they're on all day long. The warpriest can nova on one encounter, maybe two, and that's it. If he spreads out his buffs he's not hitting as hard as a fighter, and if he blows them all at once he's hitting about as hard or a little harder for about a minute and then it's back down to his unbuffed state, which is notably worse than the fighter's. Now yes, spellcasting makes him more powerful than fighter, but so is every other class that can cast spells, so that's nothing special. This is not as grossly overtuned as some people seem to think it is.

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