conversely, I'd argue that a swashbuckler is a character that you can't afford not to have perception with. since you don't get uncanny dodge until 11th level, and since your defensely is (at least largely) dex based, I don't know why you'd skimp on the skill that would let you see people coming.
Did you see everything I laid out about how a swashbuckler is stuck setting their stats? With a 15 point buy, you are going to dump int, period, and it's pretty darn hard to swing any wisdom. Perception is a luxury you can't really afford.
Oh, there is a HUGE case to be made for it. It largely comes down to a case for bumping swashbucklers up to a full 6+int for skills though. Acrobatics is a must, I don't think anyone's arguing otherwise. You need bluff to feint, which is optional. Diplomacy is conceptually required. I cannot picture a swashbuckler who isn't charming. If you dump str, you need Escape Artist. You will get grappled at some point, it's this or a bit of a weird feat investment. Intimidate powers one of the few class features that doesn't have you spending panache. You need Perception because being caught flatfooted is a potential death sentence. You don't need to regularly invest in Climb and Swim, but if you're dumping str, unlike everyone else in your position, climbing a rope and swimming in still water are not things you can just do out the gate. If you're forced to go with low int (and you pretty much are), painful cuts need making somewhere.
because your ghouls have the chance to surround me before I even get to act, even though most likely some of them would have the provoke to do so (don't forget that combat reflexes let's you take AoOs while flatfooted)? let's see here: my math on ghoul statblocks says that they have a +2 bonus to initiative. assuming (as many gms I've seen like to do) that they roll initiative as a group, that means that I have at least a decent chance of beating them (bare minimum even odds).
A couple points here- First off, I've never played in a group that used that house rule. A lot of problems can crop up when it basically turns into all the PCs going at once, and all the NPCs doing the same. I don't really see how AOOs matter. I mean, yeah, parry, but that's also limited by panache, and you are not going to be walking around with a full tank towards the end of an adventuring day. Also, we're getting way too sidetracked with the surprise round angle on this. Yeah, it's a huge deal if you take a hit before your first turn, but even without actually being surprised, the main point I was making was that the setup of the encounter is such that you'll be engaged with multiple ghouls for multiple rounds. They aren't just standing around in a clump where you can thin them out before it's time to start trading blows. Especially with this character of yours, holy cow.
str 10
dex 16 (includes racial +2)
con 14
int 10
wis 10
cha 14
race: human
hp: 13
fort: +4
ref: +7
will: +3 (including trait bonus)initiative: +5 (including swashbuckler's initiative)
feats: combat reflexes, (weapon finesse), dodge, extra grit
traits: fencer, indomitable faithequipment: +1 lamellar cuirass, mw rapier, cloak of resistance, mw buckler
attack: +7 to hit (8 w/attacks of op.); 1d6+0(3 w/precise strike) damage
ac: 19 (3 dex, 1 buckler, 3 armor, 1 feat, 1 nimble), touch 15, ff 14skills: acrobatics +9, perception +6, sense motive +6, diplomacy +8, swim +6
panache pool: 4
This seems to be the level 3 version of this character (which, yeah, I didn't remember to hit save for the level 5 versions of Diva and D.D., whoops). I'm curious what you'd do with the next 2 feats, but let me just focus for a moment on how this handles earlier in this AP.
First off, you're using a lamellar curiass? It's a table variance issue, but I wouldn't expect that to fly in a lot of cases. Particularly if you're running through Rise of the Runelords here. Small sleepy little town in Varisia, not really a place you're likely to get something that exotic. I'm assuming you're snagging it because of the weight, so lets see what you'd have to make do with otherwise. 8 lbs. from the rest of the listed equipment here, leaving you 25 for armor and everything else. A chain shirt is off the table, but you could wear leather without much trouble and take longer to outgrow it, and you might be able to swing studded for another point. Weird choice.
Past that, this swashbuckler here is... total dead weight. A fighter that does 1d6 damage? 1d6+3 at level 3? Odds are it takes you two rounds to drop any of the many goblins early on here. Skeletons early on eat everything you do with their DR. You average 2 points getting through if you manage a crit. By level 3 here you're fighting the main boss of chapter 1 here with 60 HP to chew through, and she hits pretty darn hard back at you. There's a semi-optional fight not long after that against something with DR 10/Magic, so... have fun with that. And all you really have to show for it here is AC anyone else could get with a breastplate, and 2 extra parry chances per day. You can't take power attack without a significant str investment. You're a frontliner. You should be the primary source of damage in your party. And I'm still not seeing AC balancing out the worse fort save with this.
It is NOT the entire breadth of the argument. The good fort save is mathematically superior all the way up to level 10 (the bulk of many campaigns) even with a fighter that is NOT prioritizing AC with anything beyond the standard armor/RoP/AoNA (as shown). It also does nothing to help the swashbuckler against auras (of which there are quite a few) or spells (of which there are a ton).
That's another issue with the big pile of ghouls and ghasts. Get within 10' of a ghast, the smell forces a fort save, fail and you have -2 to, among other things, all your fort saves for a few minutes. Also an issue in many APs where you're dealing with the stench of rotting bodies while exploring an area.
It is interesting how much the class turns around across the board around level 11 though. I haven't been arguing that they don't turn Just Plain Good at that point, but... it's kind of like what happens with a mage. You really suck for a while, then make up for it later. The problem at the moment, particularly with how far along "later" comes, is that you suck a bit too much around 6-10. With a good fort save and something you can really get some milage out of in the level 7 deed pile, I'd be pretty happy (well, there's also the precise strike crit tax). As is, you just spend far too long paying your dues before you have anything to show for it, especially if that bad save kills you early on.
As for a swashbuckler having an inherently higher AC. Well they sort of do. Which is to say, that the swashbuckler gives up absolutely nothing to be built in the way that I was describing. THe fighter, OTOH would be giving up a lot of damage and/or a ton of feats to keep up with the swashbuckler's AC. Certainly a shield-bashing fighter can be very good after level 11, but up to that point they will deal less damage than a swashbuckler while maintaining a higher AC. We already know that Precise Strike does a fair job of making up for not using a two-handed weapon, so we can compare the two builds as having a reasonably close offensive output.
It is weird how that actually works out, isn't it? If you minmax for either damage or AC, the other keeps up pretty well without trying, but whichever goal you chase, there's better ways to get it as any other frontliner. Without really trying to push it though, you end up essentially playing an AC-favoring fighter with really limited options, weapon wise, certain monster types that trip you up bad, and a sudden surge in damage in the back half of the level range from signature deed.
But it is very wrong for people to keep suggesting that the "secondary" save that is only one part of an on-hit fort save is somehow inherently more important than the primary check (AC). It is a statistical fallacy. Suggesting the the swashbuckler "will eventually get hit" is fine, as long as you also accept that a fighter "will eventually fail his save" and that neither changes the mathematical results.
Again, though, the fighter is better from 1-10, the fighter is better against all forms of auras or spells which do not require attack rolls, and the fighter is better if it decides to use a shield or prioritize dexterity.
It is, yes. My whole point here is that low level swashbucklers don't have better AC than a fighter (unless the fighter uses dex as a full on dump stat, it takes a good while for nimble to outperform armor training+full plate). They are likely to start edging out paladins and barbarians, but those classes have WAY better saves. Plus, swashbuckler AC is very conditional. When you have real armor, you only have to worry about incorporeal undead, and even then, you can buy a fix for that. Dex based AC can be shut off in a ton of ways though.
And also again, I believe that Charmed Life should be a static bonus to Fort saves. It would take a very high charisma (18-20) to equal the fighter's strong fort, and it wouldn't help with will saves... but aside from the barbarian, most martials have weak will saves.. so that should be acceptable for the swashbuckler as well (in fact it almost seems thematically appropriate... seems like swashbucklers are prone to alcoholism, provocation, taunting and certainly the charms of the opposite sex)
My preferred solution would be to keep Charmed Life as is, and flip the saves for fort and ref. The sheer volume of fort saves when they show up keeps you from getting a useful edge out of it, and no matter how you slice it, this class has still has more stats it can't really dump than any other frontliner. It's hard to keep wisdom up to where a fighter or a barbarian is going to have it.
If you're going to keep fort low, I'd like to see Charmed Life always on across the board, like a paladin gets. If you're just going to throw cha onto fort, I think you need to throw a bone to will saves, even if it's just bringing bravery back.
Speaking of your level 5 ghoul fight where a ton of ghouls drag down the swash, have you run that encounter the same way with a 15pt buy fighter? Just how much better is their Fort save? +2 base, so not a lot there. The fighter can dump Charisma and afford a better Con, but they are prioritizing Strength so maybe 1 or 2 points there. Since the Swashbuckler in your tests hopelessly dies every single time, do me a favor and run it with a +4 Knick bonus to Fort saves and see how it does. Something tells me that 5 ghouls running a (surprise every time for no apparent reason) train on a solo melee martial is going to manage a victory based upon the volume of dice rolls. But hey, if that +4 makes all the difference, then maybe you have a point. Still, I have seen the builds you posted and we differ on how to go about things....
At level 5, a good save is a +4 while a bad is a +1. Level/2+2 vs. Level/3. You start down 2 points, and fall permanently behind by 1 more at 4, 10, 16, and 20. At 2, 8, and 14 you temporarily fall a point behind but catch it the next level.
It's a easier for a fighter to manage a decent con score too, but I already covered the math on that when we really started getting into this.
+3 to a save doesn't sound like a lot, but it really does make a big difference. Amusingly enough, testing it out just now, the first save I rolled was a 7. With the +3 I have on D.D. here, that's a fail, but with the extra +3 from a good save at this level, or the +3 from a permanent cha bonus, exact count success. Push it with a headband and that would generally keep up. now that I'm looking at the key levels too actually.
And yeah, starting out surrounded would be hairy for anyone. Like I said, that's the worst case scenario version. I was just pointing out the odds on using dodging panache to get out of a sticky situation. Realistically, you're still going to be dealing with 2 or 3, ghouls on you at a time, maybe one getting a flank off any given round. They have 3 attacks on a full attack though, so a few are getting through, and charmed life's not going to last all day. When you switch over from ghouls to ghasts, it's even more important to close the gap. The saves become a 15, and you face one against being sickened when they move in. Only need to roll a 9 to avoid it with a good save, 12 with a bad. Fail that and you take a -2 on most rolls. Saves here become an 11 with a good save (50/50 shot) 14 with a bad (35% chance you aren't paralyzed). True, you're still not taking a lot of hits, and you should be level 6 by the time it's multiple ghasts at once hitting you with those auras, making it a tad better, but still. Better than average vs. your chance of a crit.
Engaging Barb (Ex)
I like the concept, but wow is it wordy. The simplest way would be to to just replicate Knight's Calling. I wouldn't want to see it as a direct spell-like ability sort of thing, but it's a nice starting point to work from.
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I think an elegant solution to mobility would be a nice level 7-9 deed.
Footwork: At level 9, as long as the Swashbuckler has at least 1 panache point, they may move up to half their speed before or after making a full-attack. If the swashbuckler spends 1 panache point, they may move up to their full speed. A Swashbuckler cannot make a 5ft step in a round during which they use Footwork, but this movement may be made using the Acrobatics skill to jump, move through enemies or avoid attacks of opportunity.
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Unexpected Angles As long as a Swashbuckler has one Panache he does not half his speed when using Acrobatics to move through an opponent's threatened squares. When a Swashbuckler successfully moves through an opponent's space using Acrobatics he may spend one Panache to make a full attack.
Don't forget with Panther and Snake, the extra attacks you get have to be unarmed.
While mechanically that's ok, since snake will let you do piercing unarmed, it doesn't feel entirely 'swashbucklery' to me.
I don't know, mixing in kicks, elbows, headbutts...that seems kind of swashbucklery to me. More so if those are trips...
because your ghouls have the chance to surround me before I even get to act, even though most likely some of them would have the provoke to do so (don't forget that combat reflexes let's you take AoOs while flatfooted)? let's see here: my math on ghoul statblocks says that they have a +2 bonus to initiative. assuming (as many gms I've seen like to do) that they roll initiative as a group, that means that I have at least a decent chance of beating them (bare minimum...
what I was talking about was how gms will roll for a group of unnamed npcs at the same time, instead of having to roll for 6 ghouls, they just make one roll. very common thing from my experience.
First off, you're using a lamellar curiass? It's a table variance issue, but I wouldn't expect that to fly in a lot of cases. Particularly if you're running through Rise of the Runelords here. Small sleepy little town in Varisia, not really a place you're likely to get something that exotic. I'm assuming you're snagging it because of the weight, so lets see what you'd have to make do with otherwise. 8 lbs. from the rest of the listed equipment here, leaving you 25 for armor and everything else. A chain shirt is off the table, but you could wear leather without much trouble and take longer to outgrow it, and you might be able to swing studded for another point. Weird choice.
by that logic, no one should be starting with any exotic weapons.
Past that, this swashbuckler here is... total dead weight. A fighter that does 1d6 damage? 1d6+3 at level 3? Odds are it takes you two rounds to drop any of the many goblins early on here. Skeletons early on eat everything you do with their DR. You average 2 points getting through if you manage a crit. By level 3 here you're fighting the main boss of chapter 1 here with 60 HP to chew through, and she hits pretty darn hard back at you. There's a semi-optional fight not long after that against something with DR 10/Magic, so... have fun with that. And all you really have to show for it here is AC anyone else could get with a breastplate, and 2 extra parry chances per day. You can't take power attack without a significant str investment. You're a frontliner. You should be the primary source of damage in your party. And I'm still not seeing AC balancing out the worse fort save with this.
funny, I thought it was the job of the front liners to protect the people who actually do damage, like the spellcasters. even at this level there's few melee people who can keep up with the damage that a arcane caster can dish out. and why in gods name would I take power attack for my build. to let me pretend to keep up damage with a caster? that's just silly. I'd prefer to focus on staying alive to reap the benefits of leveling as opposed to doing 4 more damage. as far as the boss goes, let me take this to spoilers:
nualia has 59 hp and an 18 ac. she also has +10 to hit and does 1d10+4 with her bastard sword. she also has power attack and is fairly pissed off, meaning she'll probably power attack a good deal. that brings her from +10 to +8 to hit and her damage from 1d10+4 to 1d10+10, since she 2 hands. she's a pretty solid end boss, but far from the most dangerous combat in the module. with his low touch ac, your fighter is probably going to join team win (aka team shadow). nualia swings once a round, which means that I can fight her for 4 rounds before I have to start worrying about panache. I will admit that her bonus to hit is fairly decent, but after the first hit I can just fight defensively and let her burn herself out.
while we're on the topic, however, I'd like to see the level 3 15pt build you would run in the same scenarios.
Casters deal more damage....?
What!?
funny, I thought it was the job of the front liners to protect the people who actually do damage, like the spellcasters. even at this level there's few melee people who can keep up with the damage that a arcane caster can dish out. and why in gods name would I take power attack for my build. to let me pretend to keep up damage with a caster? that's just silly. I'd prefer to focus on staying alive to reap the benefits of leveling as opposed to doing 4 more damage. as far as the boss goes, let me take this to spoilers:
u wot m8
Casters are good at a great many things. Casters are very powerful.
If a caster is a primary damage dealer in a party with an actual martial character, you have done something HORRIBLY WRONG.
Like not taking Power Attack, for example.
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Unexpected Angles As long as a Swashbuckler has one Panache he does not half his speed when using Acrobatics to move through an opponent's threatened squares. When a Swashbuckler successfully moves through an opponent's space using Acrobatics he may spend one Panache to make a full attack.
Well, for one, you don't HAVE to move half speed when using Acrobatics, you simply incur a -10 penalty to the roll... Unless you are playing a 7th level Swashbuckler with at least 1 panache point (Swashbuckler's Grace, which I like quite a bit).
So perhaps we could rephrase that to:
Unexpected Angles Whenever a Swashbuckler successfully uses Acrobatics to move through an opponent's space, he may spend one Panache to make a full attack.
Possibly a level 11 deed? I don't know. The moving through an enemies SPACE is a little restrictive, because there is nothing I know of that gets rid of the -5 penalty for doing that. Then again, making a full attack is not very restrictive, so that could get messy. Possibly "Whenever a Swashbuckler successfully uses Acrobatics to move through a space threatened by an enemy, he may spend one Panache to make a full attack so long as all attacks are against that enemy?"
Either way you slice it, this is pounce in disguise, and I get the vibe that the design team doesn't want more pounce. Maybe a pounce-lite where you lose your last iterative. Still good, but not AS good.
Just a thought.
Another thought is on googleshng attacking the +1 lamellar curiass... seriously? Sandpoint has a pretty diverse group of citizens from all over Golarion (mostly Chelish and Varisian) and is a short trip from a major city (and traders come from that city once a week for the market). C'mon man. I haven't even brought in the "it's a [i]fantasy[/] world" argument yet.
Either way you slice it, this is pounce in disguise, and I get the vibe that the design team doesn't want more pounce. Maybe a pounce-lite where you lose your last iterative. Still good, but not AS good.
Just a thought.
Yes... yes it is... and they may want to avoid the proliferation of pounce-like abilities, but that bell can't be un-rung.
It is also a pretty silly stance to take when you're putting out the Skald which can give pounce to an entire party.
What I was proposing earlier in this thread.. and in the last thread... and for monks for a long time.. is just upping the small movement available via a 5ft step.
You can already make a 15ft step with jaunt boots (though limited to 3/day) so its not like that power is somehow unrealistic. If you lose the avoidance of AoOs, to move 15ft instead of taking a 5ft step... I think the repercussions would be pretty cool for the swashbuckler without being overpowering. Pounce, afterall, works for a barbarian in any range from 10ft to double their movement.
Heck even just "the swashbuckler can take an extra 5ft step when making a full attack" at level 6 and then another extra 5ft step at level 11 would be great.
what I was talking about was how gms will roll for a group of unnamed npcs at the same time, instead of having to roll for 6 ghouls, they just make one roll. very common thing from my experience.
I get it, it's a timesaver, but the catch is you end up with all those enemies having a joint Enemy Side Turn in practice where they can coordinate too much for my taste. If it works for you as a house rule, cool, but this is getting way off topic.
by that logic, no one should be starting with any exotic weapons.
First off, you're using a lamellar curiass? ... Small sleepy little town in Varisia, not really a place you're likely to get something that exotic...
Right. Not without a good backstory to rationalize it anyway. Again though, table variance.
funny, I thought it was the job of the front liners to protect the people who actually do damage, like the spellcasters. even at this level there's few melee people who can keep up with the damage that a arcane caster can dish out. and why in gods name would I take power attack for my build. to let me pretend to keep up damage with a caster? that's just silly. I'd prefer to focus on staying alive to reap the benefits of leveling as opposed to doing 4 more damage.
That's... not the case at all, no. A wizard, particularly at low levels, has a very limited selection of spells, and the game is designed around getting in a lot of little fights a day. Most of those spells don't even do damage, they have various utility functions, or set up battlefield conditions that help out your side's fighter. Grease is fantastic in most parties for instance, as is enlarge person (although not so much with a dex based swashbuckler, obviously). Whatever you take though, you're going to use it sparingly, unless you have one of those GMs who lets you leave and take a nap after every fight.
Where fighters and the like shine is they don't get tired, and they do a lot of consistent damage. 18 str, power attack, and any two-handed weapon. Take a falchion. 2d4+9 damage at level 1. Just about anything that crosses your path, one hit and it's dead. No real upkeep needed to keep that going either. Power attack scales with your level. It's nice to upgrade the weapon now and then to deal with DR, bring str up as you level, maybe get a belt for it. Innate class features pretty much take care of the rest. I have a level 13 paladin right now who, under optimal conditions, hits for 4d6+132 (6d6+198 on a crit). It's only 2d4+28 on a bad day, since the crazy number is aided by a bard, a mounted charge build, smite, and a couple other goodies. Even then though, if I can full attack, that'll drop just about anything you stick in front of her in a single round, and that's just from starting with high str, slapping on a belt, taking power attack, and calling it a day.
Even my recent swashbuckler tests (here and here) manage pretty well. 1d6+5 or 1d6+6 at 1, those sheets currently have them set up for level 3. By level 5 they'd be- One handed and 16 dex: 1d6+16. Two weapon 18 dex: 1d6+12 and 1d6+8. Either one can drop a ghoul in a single hit consistently. D.D. has a chance to take out 2 at a time. Not counting the one either can drop with a riposte.
Being that much of a threat generally makes them the primary target. Your swashbuckler here needs 4 attacks on average to drop 1 ghoul, and has no special abilities to prevent monsters from moving past. In what way are you keeping casters safe from anything with the sense to realize what's hurting them?
1. Engaging Barb (Ex)- At first level the swashbuckler is able to employ his dazzling wit to trick his enemy into attacking. A sly and well placed jab of the tongue causes the enemy to jab with his weapon. A swashbuckler may spend 1 panache point to force an enemy to target his next attack at the swashbuckler. The target of the swashbuckler's Engaging Barb rolls a WILL save DC 10+Swashbuckler Level +CHA mod, if he fails, his next attack (regardless of type) must be directed at the Swashbuckler. This attack suffers a penalty equal to the CHA MOD of the Swashbuckler. ALT RULE-If the player supplies his own witty barb when using this ability the GM may allow a bonus to DC on the save up to CHA mod of swashbuckler. If a Swashbuckler targets another swashbuckler with this ability that swashbuckler may respond with his own Engaging Barb,in which case the swashbucklers roll opposing D20 + SW level + CHA Mod. Only the loser is affected by Engaging Barb.
Example: You seem a decent fellow, I hate to kill you.
You seem a decent fellow, I hate to die.
Gods, no!
We really don't need more Antagonize stuff where the feat role plays your character for you. Instead, make it so the character suffers a penalty on attack rolls made against any target other than the Swashbuckler.
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1) Swash 1 Combat Reflexes (swashy's finesse)
2) Swash 2
3) Swash 3 Dex to Damage (aka MacFarland's Maneuver)
4) Swash 4 Bonus: Dodge
5) MoMS 1 Snake Style (Bonus: Snake Sidewind)
6) MoMS 2 Bonus: Snake Fang
7) Swash 5 Crane Style
8) Swash 6
9) Swash 7 Crane Wing
10) Swash 8 Bonus: Crane RiposteIf human, you can pull this off by level 9, thanks to that extra feat at first for Dodge.
You don't need to take Snake Sidewind as a bonus feat, you can skip it and just grab Snake Style & Snake Fang.
This allows the build to come together at level 9 for most races, and level 8 for humans.
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A dwarven swashbuckler/monk with no charisma or dexterity.... Please tell me his backstory. It has got to be hilarious.Belongs to a dwarven monastic order who above all else revere the Dragon Brew, a potent alcoholic mix that, aside from being an adequate replacement for paint thinner, is one of the "alchemical potions" Dragon Style refers to that can be imbibed to unlock the power of the dragon inside a martial artist.
Members of the order can be identified by them smelling like a distillery, talking in riddles that, quite honestly, even a zen buddhist couldn't take straight while sober, and being able to poke holes into steel sheets with their fingers if they suspect there's alcohol on the other side.
This introvert, overly muscular initiate had been ridiculed so much for his patchy beard (a result of a tragic incident in which many a dwarven beards were lost to an explosion while experimenting with the spicy and extremely volatile Red Dragon Brew) that he decided he'd challenge everyone to a duel who dared to ridicule him, like Bravebeard the Brash, hero of dwarven folktales, and went abroad to take some fencing lessons from some fancy elves (keeping the nature of his voyage a secret of course). While he didn't exactly learn elven fencing he learned something, and armed with this knowledge even won some tournaments.
Upon returning to the monastery, he had found that an evil gnome merchant, Goldenose had bought out the monastery through legal shenanigans, and is selling alcohol at prices that most dwarves can hardly afford. Some dwarves couldn't even afford to get drunk every night! An unfortunate few not even on the weekends! Seeing this, he decided he'd keep his training a secret, and pretend to be the unassuming monk returning home after a journey to visit his family abroad.
But at night, he dons a hat, a mask, and a fake beard, and becomes Bravebeard, a shining beacon of hope to all dwarves oppressed by sobriety. He may not swing from chandeliers,...
O.O
..............So. Much. Win.
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Either way you slice it, this is pounce in disguise, and I get the vibe that the design team doesn't want more pounce. Maybe a pounce-lite where you lose your last iterative. Still good, but not AS good.
Just a thought.
Yes... yes it is... and they may want to avoid the proliferation of pounce-like abilities, but that bell can't be un-rung.
It is also a pretty silly stance to take when you're putting out the Skald which can give pounce to an entire party.
What I was proposing earlier in this thread.. and in the last thread... and for monks for a long time.. is just upping the small movement available via a 5ft step.
You can already make a 15ft step with jaunt boots (though limited to 3/day) so its not like that power is somehow unrealistic. If you lose the avoidance of AoOs, to move 15ft instead of taking a 5ft step... I think the repercussions would be pretty cool for the swashbuckler without being overpowering. Pounce, afterall, works for a barbarian in any range from 10ft to double their movement.
Heck even just "the swashbuckler can take an extra 5ft step when making a full attack" at level 6 and then another extra 5ft step at level 11 would be great.
This sounds pretty good. Could even look to the 3.5 Dervish and cop some of his dervish dance, allowing the swashbuckler to move 5 ft. after a successful attack.
Personally, I've always felt that monks should be able to use Flurry on a standard action attack (perhaps with a feat), allowing a second hit with the base Flurry, and a third when you get the next extra attack during a full-attack. So you could attack 3 times as a standard, or 6+ times as a full-attack.
I've also felt that TWF should get back the ability to make an off-hand attack as part of a standard action attack/charge (there was a feat to do this in 3.5 I believe).
And I've wanted the ability to do the same with Spring Attack (there was a feat chain in 3.5 for this, but it always felt kind of punitive...could just bake it into Spring Attack itself, some other ability worded to work with SA, or add one additional feat to accomplish this).
Oh, and ditto for Manyshot--the 3.5 version was a standard action semi-replacing a full-attack (up to 4 arrows as standard vs. probably 6 as full-attack, and with some better to-hit bonuses on the latter), and I think archers are missing a solid standard action attack. Just allowing the two arrows on a single attack (and in Shot on the Run) I think would be okay.
That's... not the case at all, no. A wizard, particularly at low levels, has a very limited selection of spells, and the game is designed around getting in a lot of little fights a day. Most of those spells don't even do damage, they have various utility functions, or set up battlefield conditions that help out your side's fighter. Grease is fantastic in most parties for instance, as is enlarge person (although not so much with a dex based swashbuckler, obviously). Whatever you take though, you're going to use it sparingly, unless you have one of those GMs who lets you leave and take a nap after every fight.
that, of course, depends entirely on the wizard that you're playing. or if you're playing a wizard at all. a sorc at 3rd level can be throwing magic missiles for 3d4+6 quite often as well, with no attack roll or miss chance (unlike an 18 str power attacker who can miss quite often, especially in the early levels).
Where fighters and the like shine is they don't get tired, and they do a lot of consistent damage. 18 str, power attack, and any two-handed weapon. Take a falchion. 2d4+9 damage at level 1. Just about anything that crosses your path, one hit and it's dead. No real upkeep needed to keep that going either. Power attack scales with your level. It's nice to upgrade the weapon now and then to deal with DR, bring str up as you level, maybe get a belt for it. Innate class features pretty much take care of the rest. I have a level 13 paladin right now who, under optimal conditions, hits for 4d6+132 (6d6+198 on a crit). It's only 2d4+28 on a bad day, since the crazy number is aided by a bard, a mounted charge build, smite, and a couple other goodies. Even then though, if I can full attack, that'll drop just about anything you stick in front of her in a single round, and that's just from starting with high str, slapping on a belt, taking power attack, and calling it a day.
it's been my experience that level 8+ is the sweet spot for power attack. earlier than that, you start to see dice play a lot more into your effectiveness. 8th level on you've most likely mitigated the penalty to hit via feats and gear.
Being that much of a threat generally makes them the primary target. Your swashbuckler here needs 4 attacks on average to drop 1 ghoul, and has no special abilities to prevent monsters from moving past. In what way are you keeping casters safe from anything with the sense to realize what's hurting them?
my math says 1/round: ghouls have 13 hp. I attack one on my turn, then riposte his attack on his turn. 1d6+3 averages to 6.5. ghouls have 13 hp. that aside, you do realize that my build can trip or disarm, provoking an attack that I riposte and stab the guy with, then continue my combat maneuver. so now I've stabbed you once and then gotten a swing at tripping or disarming you. I don't even need the improved maneuver feats.
but at this point we're talking in circles. I think that the swashbuckler works fairly well. from what I can see, the biggest issues are the immediate/swift action issue and charmed life needing to be an immediate action. fix those and I'd be happy.
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All boiled down, what i would like to see with the swashbuckler is:
-stronger on lower levels: finesse on level 1 is already good, but there could be a bit more damage and perhaps a medium fort save. Also in the AC departement it´s kind of more difficult on the low levels i think.
-not as strong on higher levels.
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While we're boiling things down:
Swashbucklers lack worthwhile class features beyond level 11. Frankly, the deeds are mediocre to awful. The first level of MoMS Monk + the first four levels of Oath of Vengeance Paladin are better for a Swashbuckler than Swashbuckler 12-16. He'd be better off taking Fighter levels after his Monk and Pally dips, if only he was allowed to.
While we're boiling things down:
Swashbucklers lack worthwhile class features beyond level 11. Frankly, the deeds are mediocre to awful. The first level of MoMS Monk + the first four levels of Oath of Vengeance Paladin are better for a Swashbuckler than Swashbuckler 12-16. He'd be better off taking Fighter levels after his Monk and Pally dips, if only he was allowed to.
Hmmm, I'm with you up until you say to go Fighter4. I'd rather have Swash Weapon Training go up by one and Precise Strike go up by 4 than to have the two additional feats from the Fighter levels.
Hmmm, I'm with you up until you say to go Fighter4. I'd rather have Swash Weapon Training go up by one and Precise Strike go up by 4 than to have the two additional feats from the Fighter levels.While we're boiling things down:
Swashbucklers lack worthwhile class features beyond level 11. Frankly, the deeds are mediocre to awful. The first level of MoMS Monk + the first four levels of Oath of Vengeance Paladin are better for a Swashbuckler than Swashbuckler 12-16. He'd be better off taking Fighter levels after his Monk and Pally dips, if only he was allowed to.
Fighter (Weapon Master) 3 would net you Weapon Training anyway, and it would definitely work with Gloves of Dueling. Assuming you're capped at 20, you could then take one more level of Swashbuckler for another Precise Strike and the bonus feat you'd have had anyway.
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...A dwarven swashbuckler/monk with no charisma or dexterity.... Please tell me his backstory. It has got to be hilarious.Belongs to a dwarven monastic order who above all else revere the Dragon Brew, a potent alcoholic mix that, aside from being an adequate replacement for paint thinner, is one of the "alchemical potions" Dragon Style refers to that can be imbibed to unlock the power of the dragon inside a martial artist.
Members of the order can be identified by them smelling like a distillery, talking in riddles that, quite honestly, even a zen buddhist couldn't take straight while sober, and being able to poke holes into steel sheets with their fingers if they suspect there's alcohol on the other side.
This introvert, overly muscular initiate had been ridiculed so much for his patchy beard (a result of a tragic incident in which many a dwarven beards were lost to an explosion while experimenting with the spicy and extremely volatile Red Dragon Brew) that he decided he'd challenge everyone to a duel who dared to ridicule him, like Bravebeard the Brash, hero of dwarven folktales, and went abroad to take some fencing lessons from some fancy elves (keeping the nature of his voyage a secret of course). While he didn't exactly learn elven fencing he learned something, and armed with this knowledge even won some tournaments.
Upon returning to the monastery, he had found that an evil gnome merchant, Goldenose had bought out the monastery through legal shenanigans, and is selling alcohol at prices that most dwarves can hardly afford. Some dwarves couldn't even afford to get drunk every night! An unfortunate few not even on the weekends! Seeing this, he decided he'd keep his training a secret, and pretend to be the unassuming monk returning home after a journey to visit his family abroad.
But at night, he dons a hat, a mask, and a fake beard, and becomes Bravebeard, a shining beacon of hope to all dwarves oppressed by sobriety. He may not
Kudos sir.
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A big problem with the Swashbuckler is that it seems nobody can build one without dipping into another class. Popular options are Monk archetype Master of Many Styles (MoMS), Paladin and Urban Barbarian.
If the goal of class design is that it should be desirable to make single class characters, the Swashbuckler is a failure.
I think the swashbuckler should be able to obtain easy access to the Style feats in some way other than dipping MoMS. As it stands, a MoMS dip is almost compulsory. The question is not shall I dip MoMS, but when.
Perhaps if they could take the style feats as bonus feats without having to meet the prerequisites?
P.S. Please fix the Fortitude save.
Sorry, I'm calling shenanigans here. First of all, you may very well hit a ghoul each time you swing (14 AC), and let's assume average damage. That's 6.5 so long as you have one panache. Otherwise, it's 3.5.
1d6+3 averages out to 6.5 (average of 1d6 is 3.5 +3=6.5). it also seems that people are forgetting that you don't just get a panache back when you crit but also when you drop something to 0 (assuming they're at least 1/2 your hit dice or more).
and I would probably attempt to trip on my turn, parry their aoo, riposte stick them for 6.5 damage and then finish my trip. on their turn they can either a)stand up and eat an aoo or b)swing at -4 3 times and shoot for 20s. if they stand up, i'll probably hit them for another 6.5 damage, which would drop a ghoul to 0. if they did swing prone, I wouldn't riposte, but would take 5% chance of being hit, then either a) finish them and gain a panache, or b, trip their buddy. wash, rinse, repeat.
while I'm not saying it's perfect, what I am saying is that it's a lot more tenable then people are claiming.
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A big problem with the Swashbuckler is that it seems nobody can build one without dipping into another class. Popular options are Monk archetype Master of Many Styles (MoMS), Paladin and Urban Barbarian.
This is due to many people feeling that the swashbuckler is "worse than these other options"
Many people dip regardless of their class because they like the abilities that other classes gain. I have seen WAAAAY too many people dipping into MoMS in regular games for the AC bonus, the Unarmed strikes, the feat prereqs and the like. Same goes for paladin 2. In a game I am playing in currently, our synthesist tank is dipping paladin and monk for the saves and ac to boost his own abilities.
I plan on going 1-20 with the swashbuckler even before archetypes become available due to the feel of the class. Sure I won't have amazing fort or will, but how many times do you see a fighter getting blown away by fireballs or the like because they have poor reflex? Or that barbarian being mind controled to kill the party?
Low save is unfortunate, but not something that "kills the class" sure I would like to see it, but that does not mean it is mandatory.
Building a swashbuckler now as my backup for the mythic adventure path to play an up front tank/dps.
Sure I won't have amazing fort or will, but how many times do you see a fighter getting blown away by fireballs or the like because they have poor reflex?
Pretty often but the good thing is failing a Ref save vs a Fireball just means you take a bit more damage.
Or that barbarian being mind controled to kill the party?
Pretty often, even with my guy (who has around a +16 Will save while Raging). 1's happen to the best of us. ;)
More seriously the Fighter, with no access to Superstition and all that good stuff gets mind controlled fairly often.
I plan on going 1-20 with the swashbuckler even before archetypes become available due to the feel of the class. Sure I won't have amazing fort or will, but how many times do you see a fighter getting blown away by fireballs or the like because they have poor reflex? Or that barbarian being mind controled to kill the party?
Never seen a fighter die because 'fireballs killed him'. What I have seen, is 6 Rogues die in my Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign thanks to Fort/Will saves.
Swashbucklers would have only faired slightly better.
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...
It claw/claw/bites (avg. 13.5 to hit on each) and you burn a panache to parry each one. You are now out of panache, except the one used to give you Precise Strike damage. Your parries will avg 18.5 on the roll, meaning you have a decent chance to parry rolls that most likely wouldn't have hit you anyway! Now you may attack once as a riposte. You will have a 15% chance to threaten, and a 70% chance to confirm, meaning that you will have ~ 12.5% chance to earn back ONE panache.
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Attacks are sequential, not simultaneous, even when made by monsters with several natural attacks.
So the sequence would be:
ghoul make a bite attack, the swashbuckler make a parry attempt and a riposte, potentially dropping a wounded ghoul and recovering a point of panache;
then, if the ghoul is still alive he can make a claw attack, that can be parried again by the swashbuckler (if he still has panache and AoOs).
Late to the playtesting, but the little test my group did gave me the impression that the swashbuckler but a bit of a straitjacket. Most of your choices are pre-made, with little options for personalization if you stay within the class.
A big problem with the Swashbuckler is that it seems nobody can build one without dipping into another class. Popular options are Monk archetype Master of Many Styles (MoMS), Paladin and Urban Barbarian.This is due to many people feeling that the swashbuckler is "worse than these other options"
Many people dip regardless of their class because they like the abilities that other classes gain. I have seen WAAAAY too many people dipping into MoMS in regular games for the AC bonus, the Unarmed strikes, the feat prereqs and the like. Same goes for paladin 2. In a game I am playing in currently, our synthesist tank is dipping paladin and monk for the saves and ac to boost his own abilities.
I plan on going 1-20 with the swashbuckler even before archetypes become available due to the feel of the class. Sure I won't have amazing fort or will, but how many times do you see a fighter getting blown away by fireballs or the like because they have poor reflex? Or that barbarian being mind controled to kill the party?
Low save is unfortunate, but not something that "kills the class" sure I would like to see it, but that does not mean it is mandatory.
Building a swashbuckler now as my backup for the mythic adventure path to play an up front tank/dps.
Barbarian is probably the wrong tree to bark up when it comes to saving throws. This is why a 2 level dip into barbarian is so attractive for a swashbuckler.
Spend your first 2 levels as an urban+Invulnerable rager barbarian.
Then take extra rage twice and get a +2 furious courageous rapier
You should have 20+ rounds of rage per day.
When raging (pretty much always) you will have:
DR 1/-
+4 dexterity
+4 constitution
(Or just +6 dex if you prefer)
+5 morale bonus on all saves versus Spells/Supernatural abilities.
2 levels of a strong fort save.
2 levels of a 1d12 hit die (including the maxed die at 1st)
what you lose is nowhere near as important as what you gain.
Well, given how incredibly broken courageous is, any martial character benefits from a dip in the right kind of barbarian with a courageous weapon, even moreso if there's a bard on the team. On the other hand, not being able to receive spells from your allies (because your saves are too high) can be pretty bad. As we learned with our Superstitious Barbarian, the heal spell negates if you make the save when it is used for healing (it's only half for damage).
Swashbucklers have so much incentive to do a 1-2 level MOMS monk dip it's not even funny.Question: Is this a problem of the Swashbuckler or a problem of the MoMS monk?The problem is more likely to be Crane Style.
The number of classes that "have so much incentive to do a 1-2 level MOMS monk dip it's not even funny" is pretty damn long. However I think it is just another symptom because they're not going into MoMS for class features or even for styles in general. It's almost always for Crane Style. If more than that, then it is Crane Style + X style.
Certainly no one is diving in there for Stunning Fist and Still Mind.
My two-handed fighter, charge-based build, finally took the plunge for Dragon Style. I could not find any other way for her to charge through squares containing allies.
Of course, Monkey Style with "no penalties for being prone" and "stand up without provoking AoOs" is also very, very tempting, but there are other ways around that.
my math says 1/round: ghouls have 13 hp. I attack one on my turn, then riposte his attack on his turn. 1d6+3 averages to 6.5. ghouls have 13 hp. that aside, you do realize that my build can trip or disarm, provoking an attack that I riposte and stab the guy with, then continue my combat maneuver. so now I've stabbed you once and then gotten a swing at tripping or disarming you. I don't even need the improved maneuver feats.
but at this point we're talking in circles. I think that the swashbuckler works fairly well. from what I can see, the biggest issues are the immediate/swift action issue and charmed life needing to be an immediate action. fix those and I'd be happy.
Yeah, I meant to say 2. And at level 5 you're doing 1d6+5 so it's almost certain you can get one down with two hits.
The trip bit though isn't a workable strategy here. First off, I'm not sure you can parry an AOO. I'm rather surprised I can't find an FAQ entry on it, but I'm fairly sure you can't take an AOO against someone taking an AOO. If I'm wrong, and you can, you can't get around that single swift/immediate action per turn. Doing this counts as this turn's swift, and you can't take it if you've riposted since your last turn. It's not generating an extra hit for you.
Also, you are terrible at tripping people with this character. A ghoul's AC and CMD happen to be the same. You add dex to your BAB when making attacks because you have weapon finesse, but your CMB is still str based unless you take agile maneuvers. So you're spending your turn hitting with a -3 penalty essentially, on top of eating a hit, in order to potentially get a hit in at +4. How is that a good deal?
It's also slowing things down for you. You could just attack now, half kill it, and hopefully parry and kill it with its first attack against you, then move on to the next ghoul on the following turn if all those rolls go your way. Here, you're finishing it off on your own turn... and you might be eating 4 attacks. One from provoking it, 3 while it's on the ground. If it needs a 19 to hit you normally, being prone isn't hurting its odds all that much after all.
Plus, once again, you seem to be operating on this weird assumption that you always have full panache for every encounter. If you're level 5, and you're fighting ghouls, you don't get any panache back when they drop. They only have 2 HD. You only get it back on crits. If a ghoul full attacks you, and you parry all 3 attacks, that's all your expendable panache. You can riposte one of those (if you aren't planning your trip thing), which has... what, a 15% chance to get a point back (Odds of a successful parry*30% chance of a crit*odds of confirming)? You're going to be out of those for most of the fight, and it's a preposterous assumption that you're coming in with a full tank. Most likely, you've already drained the panache reserve on the fight before this one (more ghouls for what it's worth).
my math says 1/round: ghouls have 13 hp. I attack one on my turn, then riposte his attack on his turn. 1d6+3 averages to 6.5. ghouls have 13 hp. that aside, you do realize that my build can trip or disarm, provoking an attack that I riposte and stab the guy with, then continue my combat maneuver. so now I've stabbed you once and then gotten a swing at tripping or disarming you. I don't even need the improved maneuver feats.
but at this point we're talking in circles. I think that the swashbuckler works fairly well. from what I can see, the biggest issues are the immediate/swift action issue and charmed life needing to be an immediate action. fix those and I'd be happy.
Yeah, I meant to say 2. And at level 5 you're doing 1d6+5 so it's almost certain you can get one down with two hits.
The trip bit though isn't a workable strategy here. First off, I'm not sure you can parry an AOO. I'm rather surprised I can't find an FAQ entry on it, but I'm fairly sure you can't take an AOO against someone taking an AOO. If I'm wrong, and you can, you can't get around that single swift/immediate action per turn. Doing this counts as this turn's swift, and you can't take it if you've riposted since your last turn. It's not generating an extra hit for you.
Also, you are terrible at tripping people with this character. A ghoul's AC and CMD happen to be the same. You add dex to your BAB when making attacks because you have weapon finesse, but your CMB is still str based unless you take agile maneuvers. So you're spending your turn hitting with a -3 penalty essentially, on top of eating a hit, in order to potentially get a hit in at +4. How is that a good deal?
It's also slowing things down for you. You could just attack now, half kill it, and hopefully parry and kill it with its first attack against you, then move on to the next ghoul on the following turn if all those rolls go your way. Here, you're finishing it off on your own turn... and you might be eating 4 attacks....
If you have weapon finesse, you can apply your Dex instead of your strength for appropriate weapon based combat maneuvers. Namely, Trip, Sunder, and Disarm.
Agile Maneuvers lets you use Dex for CMB for all maneuvers, instead of just weapon based maneuvers.
Just wanted to clear that bit up.
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i'd like to see a Wushu themed Archetype for the Swashbuckler that uses 2handed spears and polearms in a way similar to how most use 1handed slashing or piercing weapons. a graceful performance of the glaive yet a deadly combat style.
Wu-Shu is a very pretty martial art in the hands of a master, a gorgeous performance of great elegance. the archetype would focus on the style's elegance.
yes, finesse spears and polearms getting dex to hit and 1.5x dex to damage. it could also be used as a stand-in for Naginata-do and similar styles.
Lu-Bu would be pleased
Watch lotsa of Wuxia and play lotsa Dynasty Warriors on the play station and you will see the beauty of the style and the heavy amounts of agility involved.
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I built a Half-Orc Swashbuckler to playtest in my group's game. I was most excited about this class because the Princess Bride Wesley type is my favorite kind of hero.
Things I loved
1. Climbing up the chains, swinging across the room, and nailing the kyton with a critical hit (on a natural 15 of all things). Yes, the Derring-do dice exploded on the skill check. Yes, I felt awesome!
2. I just need one weapon at all times. I don't have to mess with four or five. In general I had no problem as a front liner, but on those occasions when I couldn't make it to the front I had a side arm prepped to fire. I know this class wasn't meant for firearms, but a single shot does give some style.
3. I am recharging pinache faster then I thought I would. Which means I'm using the class feature more to make double damage on precise strike.
Things I feel could be improved,
1. Charmed life has to be declared before the save is made. It's a limited ability that's easy to forget and it's something the paladin gets all the time. It might work better as one free re-roll or add cha to all saves.
2. The class forces you to take Combat Reflexes to make Parry useful. It's practically required for this class, so why isn't it a built in feature?
3. Kip-up was an awesome addition to the deeds the swashbuckler can do. What about when the hero clicks the sword into his hand that is sitting at his feet. "As long as the Swashbuckler has 1 point of pinache, if there is an unattended object of tiny or diminutive size (such as a light weapon) in her square, she can kipp it up into her hand without provoking an attack of opportunity. If she spends one 1 of panache, she may do this as part of her movement or as an swift action to kip the weapon to one target within 10 feet. The target must be able to see and hear the swashbuckler to catch the object." I don't know, the wording needs work. That's just something I wanted to do as a swashbuckler.
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i'd like to see a Wushu themed Archetype for the Swashbuckler that uses 2handed spears and polearms in a way similar to how most use 1handed slashing or piercing weapons. a graceful performance of the glaive yet a deadly combat style.
Wu-Shu is a very pretty martial art in the hands of a master, a gorgeous performance of great elegance. the archetype would focus on the style's elegance.
yes, finesse spears and polearms getting dex to hit and 1.5x dex to damage. it could also be used as a stand-in for Naginata-do and similar styles.
Lu-Bu would be pleased
agility aside, how does ANY of that say swashbuckler? that says
"agility based martial artist" its something that you want to see but does not fit in with the class by any stretch.|
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First off, I'm not sure you can parry an AOO. I'm rather surprised I can't find an FAQ entry on it, but I'm fairly sure you can't take an AOO against someone taking an AOO. If I'm wrong, and you can, you can't get around that single swift/immediate action per turn. Doing this counts as this turn's swift, and you can't take it if you've riposted since your last turn. It's not generating an extra hit for you.
1) An AoO can generate an AoO and parry and riposte are based on AoO.
2) "At 1st level, immediately after a swashbuckler performs a successful parry, she can spend 1 panache point to make an attack of opportunity against the creature whose attack she blocked, provided that creature is within her reach." don't make the riposte an immediate action. In the playtest document the cost of riposte is an AoO, not a immediate action, so unless it has been errated/changed/specified somewhere in this thread using riposte don't consume your immediate action.
i'd like to see a Wushu themed Archetype for the Swashbuckler that uses 2handed spears and polearms in a way similar to how most use 1handed slashing or piercing weapons. a graceful performance of the glaive yet a deadly combat style.
Wu-Shu is a very pretty martial art in the hands of a master, a gorgeous performance of great elegance. the archetype would focus on the style's elegance.
yes, finesse spears and polearms getting dex to hit and 1.5x dex to damage. it could also be used as a stand-in for Naginata-do and similar styles.
Lu-Bu would be pleased
agility aside, how does ANY of that say swashbuckler? that says
"agility based martial artist" its something that you want to see but does not fit in with the class by any stretch.
it's an Archetype that changes the swashbuckler as much as the Zen Archer changes the monk, the Swashbuckler could have Archetypes with Radically different agility based options and could be a dumping ground for agile weapon masters in a way similar to how the Alchemist is a dumping ground for scientists
it's not very Errol Flynn, but it's Very Wuxia, which is like the chinese equivalent to highly cinematic swashbuckling and shares the styles of daring and panache.
just as Swashbucklers take on thousands of similarly armed and inferior skilled men with a foil, Wu-Shu masters do the same with a Spear or polearm in heavier magnitudes against enemy spearmen.
both use a lot of parry and riposte
both use a bit of precision and a lot of choreography
both use a lot of wire fu
both are relatively flashy and bold